FREE! Toyota Engines !!

[Sean Malone]

You just need to run one of their drivers.


Williams has confirmed that Kazuki Nakajima will partner Nico Rosberg in next year’s FW30. He will thus drive for the team 20 years after Williams told Honda that it would not take his father, Satoru.

Nakajima, who turns 23 in January, is a protégé of Toyota. In effect the team will get its engines for free in return for running the youngster, having got them for half price by giving him testing miles this year.


Link (http://www.speedtv.com/articles/auto/formulaone/41481/)

I hate Toyota and I would do it!

[Tifosi24]

He also wasn't half bad in Brazil, if you ignore the whole barreling into pit member thing.

[Methanolandbrats]

Frank is a cheap ****er. He's hoping the free mills are strong enough to push Nico to the sharp end of the grid and he does'nt GAF what happens to the kamakazi pilot.

[Sean Malone]

Frank is a cheap ****er. He's hoping the free mills are strong enough to push Nico to the sharp end of the grid and he does'nt GAF what happens to the kamakazi pilot.

Yep. After all these years, I'd still love to see the evidence against Frankie from the Italian Senna trial.

[Ed_Severson]

http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q289/msarmbrester/frank.jpg

[opinionated ow]

i've got a lot of respect for sir frank. he is one of the most honest ones in that pitlane

[Sean Malone]

i've got a lot of respect for sir frank. he is one of the most honest ones in that pitlane

Except that he murdered Senna and got away with it.





:)

[opinionated ow]

Except that he murdered Senna and got away with it.





:)

he didn't murder anyone. give me a bloody break. this sign must be displayed at all Australian motorsport events:

DISCLAIMER
EXCLUSION OF LIABILITY, RELEASE AND ASSUMPTION OF RISK
WORDING OF SIGN AT ENTRANCE TO RACE CIRCUIT

WARNING – MOTOR SPORT IS DANGEROUS

In entering these premises (whether for the purposes of attending or participating in a motor sports event or otherwise) you agree:
• to release Confederation of Australian Motor Sport Ltd ("CAMS") and Australian Motor Sport Commission Ltd, promoters, sponsor organisations, land owners and lessees, organisers of the event, their respective servants, officials, representatives and agents (collectively, the "Associated Entities") from all liability for your death, personal injury (including burns), psychological trauma, loss or damage (including property damage) ("harm") howsoever arising from your participation in or attendance at the event/premises, except to the extent prohibited by law;
• that CAMS and the Associated Entities do not make any warranty, implied or express, that the event services will be provided with due care and skill or that any materials provided in connection with the services will be fit for the purpose for which they are supplied; and
• to attend or participate in the event/ premises at your own risk.
By entering these premises you acknowledge that:
• the risks associated with attending or participating in the event/ premises include the risk that you may suffer harm as a result of:
• motor vehicles (or parts of them) colliding with other motor vehicles, persons or property;
• acts of violence and other harmful acts (whether intentional or inadvertent) committed by persons attending or participating in the event; and
• the failure or unsuitability of facilities (including grand-stands, fences and guard rails) to ensure the safety of persons or property at the event.
• motor sport is dangerous and that accidents causing harm can and do happen and may happen to you.
You accept the conditions of, and acknowledge the risks arising from, participating in or attending the event/premises and being provided with the event services by CAMS and the Associated Entities.


it is a good reminder for all of us.

[Methanolandbrats]

i've got a lot of respect for sir frank. he is one of the most honest ones in that pitlane I agree. He's just not into paying drivers a lot of money. Saw an interview with him after his drivers both crashed. The question was something like this, "both your drivers may be injured, what are you going to do?" Frank's answer "I can get another driver with a phone call, the problem is it takes two weeks to build a car". :laugh:

[Sean Malone]

he didn't murder anyone. give me a bloody break.



I'm pretty sure that the drivers know it's dangerous. :gomer:

Frank "Killer" Williams would agree. ;)

[Andrew Longman]

he didn't murder anyone. give me a bloody break.

The Discovery Channel, or something similar, did an in depth analysis of the crash and concluded that the Safety Car period just before the crash, new to F1 at the time, had slowed the field too much and cool the tires too much, lowering the ride hight. IIRC the claim was Senna car bottomed out in the turn which took away the downforce produced by the undertray. Losing downforce he flew wide of the corner.

They also investigated theories about broken steering and such using on board shots and computer simulations and they were not found credible.

I'm sure someone remembers the details better than I.

[Spicoli]

you two deserve each other.

[Sean Malone]

The Discovery Channel, or something similar, did an in depth analysis of the crash and concluded that the Safety Car period just before the crash, new to F1 at the time, had slowed the field too much and cool the tires too much, lowering the ride hight. IIRC the claim was Senna car bottomed out in the turn which took away the downforce produced by the undertray. Losing downforce he flew wide of the corner.

They also investigated theories about broken steering and such using on board shots and computer simulations and they were not found credible.

I'm sure someone remembers the details better than I.

So Schumacher put just enough heat in his tires not to shoot straight off the track after hitting the bump. A bump that Senna had raced over many, many times. A bump that caused his car to proceed straight as an arrow into a concrete wall without nary a wiggle as most cars do when encountering bumps AT FULL SPEED. Sure, whatever.

The evidence against Frankie "da killa" Williams was enough that he was charged with manslaughter. He was acquitted..life goes on.

BUT!


Senna trial judge, Antonio Costanzo, has cited the reason for Ayrton Senna's crash at the 1994 San Marino GP to be the breaking of the 'modified' steering column fitted to his Williams-Renault FW16B.

In a 381 page report published on June 15 1998 (six months after the verdict) the Italian judge has stated that without that condition Ayrton Senna's car would not have left the track at the Tamburello bend. The chief prosecutor, Maurizio Passarini could now appeal against the judge's decision to find the defendants 'Not Guilty'.

Since the tragedy of May 1 1994 many people have wanted to know the truth about the crash: What really happened? Was it 'just a racing accident' or did (as some people insinuate) 'Ayrton Senna contribute to his own death through his own inadequacies'?
Senna: Not guilty

link (http://www.thesennafiles.com/s-files/trialidx.html)







Oh, and OJ didn't do it either.







:)

[ferrarigod]

http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q289/msarmbrester/frank.jpg

=

http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/5702/mrburnshannibalzd7.gif

[jonovision_man]

The evidence against Frankie "da killa" Williams was enough that he was charged with manslaughter. He was acquitted..life goes on.

He was only charged because the Italian justice system is a joke.

And he was acquitted.

C'mon, does anyone really think Frank would intentionally put his driver in harm's way? It's ridiculous to the extreme, in F1 they are always pushing the envelope and developing the cars, accidents will happen and mistakes will be made that put people's safety at risk. It's the nature of the sport.

jono

[Sean Malone]

He was only charged because the Italian justice system is a joke.

And he was acquitted.

C'mon, does anyone really think Frank would intentionally put his driver in harm's way? It's ridiculous to the extreme, in F1 they are always pushing the envelope and developing the cars, accidents will happen and mistakes will be made that put people's safety at risk. It's the nature of the sport.

jono

And mistakes get covered up so that people don't go to jail.

Case in point...the mysterious incident of the "black box" recovered from Senna's crash site.


Metal expert Adolpho Melchionda was finally handed the 'black box' a MONTH after the crash and is quoted as saying:

'It had been dismantled from behind the seat in Senna's car and taken away. When it was eventually returned to me in the Imola garage 30 days later, it was broken - it could no longer be used - it had been smashed.

'The input and output plugs which could have been linked to a computer, to give readings about the driver's reactions and the workings of the car, were no longer there.

'It looked as though it had been smashed with a hammer. That box could have told us everything about the driver's controls: accelerator, brakes, revs etc. but it is now USELESS.

One can defend nefarious actions with sweeping generalizations that paint an entire country's justice system as a "joke" and that a team owner (or his subordinates) would never do anything wrong *cough stepneygate cough*, or one can educate themselves on the evidence.

Fact - Senna went head first into a concrete wall at 165mph with a broken steering wheel laying in his lap and lost his life.
Fact - Frank Williams was not found guilty of manslaughter.

You're right, the Italian legal system is a joke!!!


:)

[last2brake]

Fact - Senna went head first into a concrete wall at 165mph with a broken steering wheel laying in his lap and lost his life.


That's a FACT ? He had the steering wheel in his lap when he hit the wall ?

Wow. That's factin' incredible that that's a fact. You should be a reporter.

So Colin killed Ronnie, too ? Or is the much heralded Italian legal system still working on that, too ?

[Dirk Diggler]

Anyone bashing on Frank would have really loved Colin Chapman.;)

[Sean Malone]

That's a FACT ? He had the steering wheel in his lap when he hit the wall ?

Wow. That's factin' incredible that that's a fact. You should be a reporter.

So Colin killed Ronnie, too ? Or is the much heralded Italian legal system still working on that, too ?

I'll put 2 and 2 together for you since you're too lazy to read the 381 page trial report;

Piss poor welded steering column coupled with metal fatigue due to piss poor construction lead to the column breaking PRIOR (read that again as it is very important) to hitting the wall.

Did I go too fast for you? Let me know and I'll take out the multisyllabic words.

[Andrew Longman]

Sean, from the ever reliable Wikipedia. ;) The show's theory may not be wholy accepted but the Chin and Damon's comments are interesting. Clearly the car was bottoming and very hard to drive. Seems that there are less complicated and more probable explanations besides Frank recklessly using a flawed part and then covered it up. I have to call you over the top in this one :) :


In 2004, a television documentary by National Geographic called Seismic Seconds: The Death of Ayrton Senna was screened worldwide. The program considered the available data from Senna's car to reconstruct the sequence of events that led to the fatal crash. The program concluded that an unusually long safety car period had reduced the pressures in Senna's tyres, thereby lowering the car. As the car entered the Tamburello bend, the skid-plate on the bottom of the car connected with the ground, rendering the car's steering and lateral grip useless. Senna reacted with his characteristic "twitch" reflexes, but as the car regained grip and steering with the steering wheel in a right-lock corrective position, Senna effectively drove off the circuit. The program came to the conclusion that if Senna's reactions had actually been slower, he might have survived the crash.

To many within the F1 world including some drivers of that era who had raced at Imola, the conclusions drawn from low tyre pressure as a cause of the accident seem implausible. Telemetry recorded that Senna took the bend at 306 km/h (190 mph) on lap 6 with cold tyres. The information released in the trial stated that Senna started the race with 86 litres of fuel and had planned a two stop race strategy, one fewer than Schumacher, who started the race lighter on a 3 stop strategy. The theory that low tyre pressure caused the crash was defeated in court when Stefano Stefanini, head of Bologna's traffic accident unit, testified that Senna, with a heavier car than Michael Schumacher and Damon Hill, recorded a time of 1.24.887 on the sixth lap, Ayrton's only lap at race speed and the 3rd fastest lap of the race. Michele Alboreto and other drivers of the era claimed that given Senna's lap time, his tyres would have been at race temperature by the 7th lap and could not have been a factor in the crash.

Some drivers indicated that Senna's crash was due to driver error. Michael Schumacher, who had followed closely behind the Brazilian before the crash, gave the following account at the subsequent winners' press conference:

“ I saw that his car was already touching quite a lot at the back on the lap before, the car was very nervous in this corner, and he nearly lost it. On the next lap he did lose it. The car touched with the rear skids, went a bit sideways, and he just lost it.[5] ”

Damon Hill, Senna's teammate at the time of his death, had this to say in an interview given on the subject 10 years later:

“ I am convinced that he made a mistake, but many people will never believe that he could. Why not? He made many mistakes in his career. I have listened to and read endless theories about why, or how, he could have crashed on such a 'simple' corner like Tamburello. No-one other than Ayrton Senna and me know what it was like to drive that car, through that corner, in that race, on that day, on cold tyres. He was identified with pushing to the limit and beyond. He would often prefer to crash into his opponent rather than be defeated. It was not the fault of anyone else that he kept his foot flat when he could have lifted.[6]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Ayrton_Senna

[Sean Malone]

Sean, from the ever reliable Wikipedia. ;) The show's theory may not be wholy accepted but the Chin and Damon's comments are interesting. Clearly the car was bottoming and very hard to drive. Seems that there are less complicated and more probable explanations besides Frank recklessly using a flawed part and then covered it up. I have to call you over the top in this one :) :



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Ayrton_Senna

Over the top? How, by calling Frank Williams a murderer? Ok, ok, guilty as charged!

Regarding your wikipedia post however, I remember that show. I have it on tape in a box somewhere actually. They based all of their conclusions solely on first hand report by the drivers, Williams team employees and the crash video, not the black box. Why? Because someone smashed the black box with a blunt instrument.
Again, the judge himself came to the conclusion the steering column was broken prior to the crash. That says a lot in my book, but then I'm only as intelligent as a reporter I guess. :gomer:
But , no matter how many times I and a large group of Senna fans jump up and down and blame Frank Williams, it won't bring Senna back...I just like arguing, I mean 'discussing'. :)

[Easy]

The theory I've always heard regarding the safety car is that the tire pressures got too low allowing the car to bottom so hard that the front tires were unweighted enough to prevent turn in.

FWIW, I have no dog in this fight, Senna isn't coming back and in my opinion Frank Williams is every bit the ruthless SoB that Ron, Flav, di Montezemolo, Gerhard Berger and Eddie Jordan are. You don't become a successful F1 boss by being a nice guy.

[Ed_Severson]

They based all of their conclusions solely on first hand report by the drivers, Williams team employees and the crash video, not the black box. Why? Because someone smashed the black box with a blunt instrument.

Sorry, but that's false. I just finished watching this program over again (which is available in 3 segments on YouTube). Their analysis uses telemetry from the car all the way up to the point of impact, including the readings from a torque sensor on the steering column, which showed a consistently-non-zero signal. Had the column broken before Senna hit the wall, the torque sensor would have been useless.

I'm not sure where the story about the crash box originates from, but you seem to think that it would be the only source of data on the car, which is incredibly improbable. I don't know of any major racing series in the world with a crash box program that has data logged by only one unit.

[last2brake]

I'll put 2 and 2 together for you since you're too lazy to read the 381 page trial report;

Piss poor welded steering column coupled with metal fatigue due to piss poor construction lead to the column breaking PRIOR (read that again as it is very important) to hitting the wall.

Did I go too fast for you? Let me know and I'll take out the multisyllabic words.

Yes, please do that for me. It might be extremely helpful for me. My guess is you'll derive some satisfaction from it, also

Meanwhile, maybe I'll start a thread wondering what 2 and 2 equals. The neat thing about internet experts is there are going to be several answers. All the posters will be convinced that they are the only one with the correct answer.

I always seem to run into the less than 1 person out of 100 who statistics say is smarter than I am.

edit: I never said you were as intelligent as a reporter.

[Sean Malone]

Sorry, but that's false. I just finished watching this program over again (which is available in 3 segments on YouTube). Their analysis uses telemetry from the car all the way up to the point of impact, including the readings from a torque sensor on the steering column, which showed a consistently-non-zero signal. Had the column broken before Senna hit the wall, the torque sensor would have been useless.

I'm not sure where the story about the crash box originates from, but you seem to think that it would be the only source of data on the car, which is incredibly improbable. I don't know of any major racing series in the world with a crash box program that has data logged by only one unit.

In 1994?

Whether or not it was negligence on the Williams team part or whether it was cold tires or even driver error from Senna himself, I've watched that video 1 meeellion times and I have a hard time believing that the hardly noticeable bump was at fault. Especially considering how F1 cars, with their high profile, curb pounding tires manage bumps.
You guys want facts? I'll give you a fact; you don't know and I don't know what caused Senna's crash.

[Sean Malone]

Yes, please do that for me. It might be extremely helpful for me. My guess is you'll derive some satisfaction from it, also

Meanwhile, maybe I'll start a thread wondering what 2 and 2 equals. The neat thing about internet experts is there are going to be several answers. All the posters will be convinced that they are the only one with the correct answer.

I always seem to run into the less than 1 person out of 100 who statistics say is smarter than I am.

edit: I never said you were as intelligent as a reporter.

4.


Tell me more about these "internet posters". :gomer:

[last2brake]

.......I don't know what caused Senna's crash.

And yet you accused a person of murdering him.

Sorry I didn't agree with you.

[Sean Malone]

And yet you accused a person of murdering him.

Sorry I didn't agree with you.

Knock, knock, hey Mcfly, the dude was on trial for years for manslaughter in an Italian supreme court. Lil' ol' me is just an internet poster.

:gomer:

[Ed_Severson]

It's got nothing to do with how the tires manage bumps. The crux of the theory is that, for whatever reason, the car bottomed out mid-corner and Senna overcorrected. It happens, it just doesn't happen frequently at 300 kph with no runoff anymore.

Either way, though, the data from the steering column torque sensor is the most important piece of information, and it directly opposes your theory.

[Sean Malone]

It's got nothing to do with how the tires manage bumps. The crux of the theory is that, for whatever reason, the car bottomed out mid-corner and Senna overcorrected. It happens, it just doesn't happen frequently at 300 kph with no runoff anymore.

Either way, though, the data from the steering column torque sensor is the most important piece of information, and it directly opposes your theory.

Was that sensor made by Williams by chance?

:gomer:

[last2brake]

Knock, knock, hey Mcfly, the dude was on trial for years for manslaughter in an Italian supreme court. Lil' ol' me is just an internet poster.

:gomer:

Sir Malone,

Then shouldn't you have accused him of manslaughtering Senna instead of saying he murdered him ?


Sincerely,
McFly

[Ed_Severson]

Most likely not, but do you really want to go down the road of implying conspiracy on top of negligence?

So far, you're opposing hard data with conjecture and hyperbole. I don't really care about the debate one way or the other, but the results on the scoreboard aren't very flattering for you.

[Sean Malone]

Sir Malone,

Then shouldn't you have accused him of manslaughtering Senna instead of saying he murdered him ?


Sincerely,
McFly

McFly,

Semantics. If they can't pin ya fer murder, they'll bump it down to manslaughter. Don't you watch Law and Order? ;)

[Methanolandbrats]

>>>>>>>>hardly noticable bump?>>>>>>>>>

that car was spitting sparks like a grinder.

[pchall]

I'm pretty sure that the drivers know it's dangerous. :gomer:

Frank "Killer" Williams would agree. ;)

I wonder if Williams payed Piers Courage to race or the other way around?

[Sean Malone]

Most likely not, but do you really want to go down the road of implying conspiracy on top of negligence?

So far, you're opposing hard data with conjecture and hyperbole. I don't really care about the debate one way or the other, but the results on the scoreboard aren't very flattering for you.

Who keeps score on a message board? Oh, you do.

You keep confusing me with the Italian prosecuting attorneys. :gomer:

I ask all the questions and the only answers I get are "watch YouTube".

Ja find out if that steering sensor was made by Williams yet?

Neat!

[Sean Malone]

>>>>>>>>hardly noticable bump?>>>>>>>>>

that car was spitting sparks like a grinder.

Again, why didn't M$'s car follow suit?

[Methanolandbrats]

Again, why didn't M$'s car follow suit? A little more ride height? I don't know. I think Senna overdrove it because he was being pressured by Schumi and Senna's ego would not let him back off. Senna ****ed up and it turned out to be a tragic mistake.

[Ankf00]

Knock, knock, hey Mcfly, the dude was on trial for years for manslaughter in an Italian supreme court. Lil' ol' me is just an internet poster.

:gomer:

Italian courts are trying to prosecute Lance Armstrong as well. Clearly an irreproachable legal system if there ever was.

[Sean Malone]

I just like conspiracy theories and messin' with the newbies who take me seriously. :D

I should get paid for this. :)

[last2brake]

I just like conspiracy theories and messin' with the newbies who take me seriously. :D

I should get paid for this. :)


Oh. There's a chance someone could take you seriously.

I just figured they'd take you as you are. Not that there's anything wrong with that. Although there are probably people who would rather not be reminded of Senna's death. Even though we are almost everytime a chicane is added somewhere.

Isn't it great that they name chicanes after Senna ?

[Sean Malone]

Oh. There's a chance someone could take you seriously.

I just figured they'd take you as you are. Not that there's anything wrong with that. Although there are probably people who would rather not be reminded of Senna's death. Even though we are almost everytime a chicane is added somewhere.

Isn't it great that they name chicanes after Senna ?

I just can't believe I'm the only one here who likes Senna better than Frank Williams.:(

[jonovision_man]

I just like conspiracy theories and messin' with the newbies who take me seriously. :D

I should get paid for this. :)

Does anyone really take you seriously? :p

I've "educated myself" plenty on Senna's death - you'd have to be a tin hatter to think that Sir Frank was culpable. Or the Italian justice system. Actually even they dismissed it in the end, didn't they? :p

jono

[STD]

I wonder if Williams payed Piers Courage to race or the other way around?

A great partnership of mutual respect and friendship that ended far too soon.



The 1994 FW16 was not an easy car to work with or drive. Senna had fits coming to terms with it and had in fact spun out in an earlier race without really knowing why. The car was skittish with very unpredictable roadholding. It was bad over bumps. First major suspension and rear wing changes came on at Imola.
The quick rules changes outlawing active supension systems and because of that the relative short development time on a proper normally sprung suspension system seems a point never brought up.
The concrete wall at Tamburello had come very close to taking Piquet 1987 and Berger 1989. Another point more or less overlooked.

As far as free engines, well that's nothing new at all in the scope of F1 over the years.
Toyota benefits from Williams seemless transmissions and other shared technologies.

Not the first Nakagima to come with an engine deal. :)


Sean Malone
I just can't believe I'm the only one here who likes Senna better than Frank Williams.

No word other than lame fits that sentence. :thumdown:

[Sean Malone]

A great partnership of mutual respect and friendship that ended far too soon.




No word other than lame fits that sentence. :thumdown:


Ya think?




:gomer:

[Sean Malone]

Does anyone really take you seriously? :p

Obviously or my tongue in check comment wouldn't have produced this thread. :)


I've "educated myself" plenty on Senna's death - you'd have to be a tin hatter to think that Sir Frank was culpable. Or the Italian justice system. Actually even they dismissed it in the end, didn't they? :p

jono

If you know anything about the case, you'll remember that many of the prosecuting team lost their motivation after numerous death threats that to this day no one will talk about.


There is more to this story than either you, Ed Severson, or McFy know anything about, even though we all pretend to. :gomer:

[Andrew Longman]

In 1994?

You guys want facts? I'll give you a fact; you don't know and I don't know what caused Senna's crash.

Yes Sean, there was recordable telemetry in 1994.

And yes us internet jockeys are simply **** heads, but there are facts readily available the suggest one possible cause as more simple, logical and likely than others. Come on dude, take a breath, this is not the McGruder film and JFK. :gomer: There is some pretty good science behind it.

But TG DID f formula racing in NA. No controversy :tony:

[Sean Malone]

Yes Sean, there was recordable telemetry in 1994.

And yes us internet jockeys are simply **** heads, but there are facts readily available the suggest one possible cause as more simple, logical and likely than others. Come on dude, take a breath, this is not the McGruder film and JFK. :gomer: There is some pretty good science behind it.

But TG DID f formula racing in NA. No controversy :tony:

". I don't know of any major racing series in the world with a crash box program that has data logged by only one unit."

Try to keep up. Oh, and we've been done for hours. Try to keep up...again. :gomer:

[Andrew Longman]

I just can't believe I'm the only one here who likes Senna better than Frank Williams.:(

Sean. That's not the issue. Senna has a place among the greatest drivers. Williams has a place, luv him or not, among the most important players in the sport. Given Frank's obstacle, commercial and physical, there is much to be admired. Regardless, we are discussing whether it is legit to call him responsible in any way for the wreck that killed Senna.

Just a bit of advive... You're not doing too well. No one will question you loyalty and bitterness over his death, but your position is a little like saying CART was responsible for Moores death because they let him race knowing he had an injured hand.

Let it go. Its OK we'll still like you. :)

[Sean Malone]

Sean. That's not the issue. Senna has a place among the greatest drivers. Williams has a place, luv him or not, among the most important players in the sport. Given Frank's obstacle, commercial and physical, there is much to be admired. Regardless, we are discussing whether it is legit to call him responsible in any way for the wreck that killed Senna.

Just a bit of advive... You're not doing too well. No one will question you loyalty and bitterness over his death, but your position is a little like saying CART was responsible for Moores death because they let him race knowing he had an injured hand.

Let it go. Its OK we'll still like you. :)

You're forgetting two important things...I'm not trying to change anyone's opinion and 2, again, for the third or fourth time, it isn't just "my" opinion.

And again (once I start repeating myself three or four times, even I know it's played out), there are valid, unanswered questions regarding not only the crash but the events thereafter that NONE of you have answered IN THE LEAST nor answered by YouTube clips.:gomer:



Peace out.



RIP A.S.

[Indy]

Like what?

Seriously. I want to know what you think.

[jonovision_man]

There is more to this story than either you, Ed Severson, or McFy know anything about, even though we all pretend to. :gomer:

Blah blah blah... you sound like one of the "Elvis is still alive" or "Diana was murdered by the Queen" people.

Race car drivers die, it sucks but it happens. Whether something broke or Senna lost it really doesn't matter to me, it was not intentional and Sir Frank would never ever put a driver in more danger than F1 already presents by its very nature.

If you're just playing devil's advocate, this is a pretty lousy topic to do it with.

jono

[Methanolandbrats]

Blah blah blah... you sound like one of the "Elvis is still alive" or "Diana was murdered by the Queen" people.

Race car drivers die, it sucks but it happens. Whether something broke or Senna lost it really doesn't matter to me, it was not intentional and Sir Frank would never ever put a driver in more danger than F1 already presents by its very nature.

If you're just playing devil's advocate, this is a pretty lousy topic to do it with.

jono

exactly.

[Andrew Longman]

You're forgetting two important things...I'm not trying to change anyone's opinion and 2, again, for the third or fourth time, it isn't just "my" opinion.

And again (once I start repeating myself three or four times, even I know it's played out), there are valid, unanswered questions regarding not only the crash but the events thereafter that NONE of you have answered IN THE LEAST nor answered by YouTube clips.:gomer:



Peace out.



RIP A.S.


There are people that believe Apollo was fake and there are people than believe in the Great Pumpkin and there are people who believe Williams kills Senna. What's your point?

What are the unanswered questions? The on board, telemetry and eyewitnesses (MS) all point to him suddenly overcorrecting to the right and flying off the track. Is it conclusive? No, but it is the simplest most likely answer.

A smashed black box? It did go through a crash. I don't know. If you want to accuse Williams of tampering with evidence while the Italian prosecuter undertook a witchhunt, that's a different point.