View Full Version : Renault spied on McLaren?
jonovision_man
11-09-07, 04:24 PM
:laugh:
They're two degrees of separation from the innovators... :)
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/63878
At least 15 engineers at Renault knew about the McLaren technical information that is at the centre of the latest spy investigation, autosport.com has learned.
Renault are to face a hearing of the FIA World Motor Sport Council next month to answer charges that they had in their possession intellectual property belonging to McLaren.
This information was part of a number of floppy disks that engineer Phil Mackareth brought with him to the Enstone team from McLaren in September 2006.
jono
nissan gtp
11-09-07, 04:30 PM
ban all teams except FIArrari :shakehead
stroker
11-09-07, 05:48 PM
I got an idea. Let's put the engineers in the courtroom and the lawyers on the grid. That should settle the issue as to who the best team is.
:saywhat:
I got an idea. Let's put the engineers in the courtroom and the lawyers on the grid. That should settle the issue as to who the best team is.
:saywhat:
NOOOOO!!!!!!! That would give Mad Max way too much of an enhanced grip on the series! :eek:
Don Quixote
11-09-07, 08:06 PM
Formula one teams use floppy disks!!? :eek: :rofl:
jonovision_man
11-09-07, 08:25 PM
http://members.cox.net/surround/quaddisc/TEAC%202340%20Reel%20to%20Reel.jpg
Boatdesigner
11-09-07, 08:52 PM
They're made out of carbon fiber and titanium though.:D
Andrew Longman
11-10-07, 10:54 AM
Tricky situation. The sport is founded and depends on constant innovation which also creates the conditions for talent constantly moving around from company to company.
Except that there is a legal/criminal issue of possession of stolen property it seems from an FIA POV it would be better to just let everyone use whatever information/designs they can get. Then it is up to the teams to provide whatever security they see fit and to provide sufficient incentives to team members to stay.
They've already gone "freeze" happy...just put a freeze on cheating!:)
Methanolandbrats
11-10-07, 12:39 PM
The only solution is to limit displacement, weight and chassis dimensions. Other than that, it's run what ya brung.
Insomniac
11-10-07, 01:52 PM
Tricky situation. The sport is founded and depends on constant innovation which also creates the conditions for talent constantly moving around from company to company.
Except that there is a legal/criminal issue of possession of stolen property it seems from an FIA POV it would be better to just let everyone use whatever information/designs they can get. Then it is up to the teams to provide whatever security they see fit and to provide sufficient incentives to team members to stay.
You can take what's in your head with you. Anything else is taking IP that does not belong to you. A clear line is drawn at what you can take with you when you leave a company. You get caught violating it, you deserve the punishment. It makes the sport look bad, the FIA can't just turn a blind eye.
Andrew Longman
11-10-07, 02:30 PM
You can take what's in your head with you. Anything else is taking IP that does not belong to you. A clear line is drawn at what you can take with you when you leave a company. You get caught violating it, you deserve the punishment. It makes the sport look bad, the FIA can't just turn a blind eye.
Sure that's the law and how intellectual property is handled in any industry. I'm just saying this is getting ridiculous and except for the fact that it is illegal I almost wish they would just let them commit total war on each other.
Even under the scenario you describe it may not be quite as simple as what I can carry in my head I can use. If I write a copyrighted book for a company, that IP belongs to the company. If I can rewrite the book completely from memory it still belongs to company. Pretty much the same for an aero do dad thingy an engineer might invent and then recreate at another team, especially if it is patented. It starts to get a little murky and hard to prove whether it was or wasn't a copy.
Copyright and patent are I'm sure key variables. Anyone know if F1 patent or copyright their designs?
No wonder the British were so pissed at that Samuel Slater guy! He remembered a LOT!
Insomniac
11-11-07, 09:56 PM
Sure that's the law and how intellectual property is handled in any industry. I'm just saying this is getting ridiculous and except for the fact that it is illegal I almost wish they would just let them commit total war on each other.
Even under the scenario you describe it may not be quite as simple as what I can carry in my head I can use. If I write a copyrighted book for a company, that IP belongs to the company. If I can rewrite the book completely from memory it still belongs to company. Pretty much the same for an aero do dad thingy an engineer might invent and then recreate at another team, especially if it is patented. It starts to get a little murky and hard to prove whether it was or wasn't a copy.
Copyright and patent are I'm sure key variables. Anyone know if F1 patent or copyright their designs?
If patent law is the same outside the U.S., I'd say no. You provide full details about what you patented so that it isn't "lost" because you were afraid someone would steal the idea. In return you own the rights for an exclusive period of time. Maybe they patent higher level ideas, but as fast as things change, they don't have much time to go through that process for everything.
I was talking about concepts. The book analogy would be plagiarism. ;) I don't think recreating a part would violate anything legally unless it is patented.
The only solution is to limit displacement, weight and chassis dimensions. Other than that, it's run what ya brung.
Nah, that would be actual racing.
An interesting read.
http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_feature_item.php
More shizzle hits the fan:
http://sports.espn.go.com/rpm/news/story?seriesId=6&id=3124175
The McLaren memo says that 33 files containing more than 780 individual drawings outlining the entire technical blueprint of the 2006 and 2007 McLaren F1 cars were copied onto 11 floppy disks in March 2006.
McLaren says the disks were loaded onto 11 Renault F1 computers in September 2006, when Mackereth joined Renault, and were discussed by up to 18 Renault F1 personnel, including a group of senior engineering chiefs and heads of department.
What is this 'floppy disk' that is mentioned? :saywhat: I hope they @ least had the good sense to use 3.5" rather than 5.25" disks. :gomer:
-Kevin
Sure make you wonder why Renault sucked so bad if the had full drawings of the McLaren.
Rogue Leader
11-23-07, 06:12 PM
Sure make you wonder why Renault sucked so bad if the had full drawings of the McLaren.
Maybe McLaren secretly replaced the drawings with fakes to sabotage them and make them slower! The Plot Thickens!!
Insomniac
11-23-07, 10:50 PM
I'm surprised any of these teams have computers with removable media options.
I'm surprised any of these teams have computers with removable media options.
seriously, you'd think they'd have tighter security than a DoE lab
cameraman
11-24-07, 04:54 PM
seriously, you'd think they'd have tighter security than a DoE lab Their security sounds quite a bit like your average DOE lab....
I read where Adrian Newey has said this kind of cheating has always been a part of F-1. He even states these last 2 episodes are not even close in severity to past examples, making me wonder what the heck they were! Any ideas?
Rogue Leader
11-26-07, 12:33 AM
I read where Adrian Newey has said this kind of cheating has always been a part of F-1. He even states these last 2 episodes are not even close in severity to past examples, making me wonder what the heck they were! Any ideas?
I'd assume it was something more like youd lose an engineer and assume he would F-you and your team so then you would start changing things up and hope that guy wouldnt REALLY screw you. But now F1 is getting that much more cuthroat and some people have realized that the courts can figure in to win at any cost...
coolhand
11-26-07, 01:12 AM
I think it is unfair to a guy who left one company and gets hired by another has to just ignore part of his knowledge base. It is .like his time at the previous company is wasted if he cannot apply what he learned there. You owe it to your new employer to give them your best instead of selectively ignoring what you know.
stroker
11-26-07, 10:47 AM
The word you're all thinking of but not saying is "incestuous".
in·ces·tu·ous /ɪnˈsɛstʃuəs/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[in-ses-choo-uhs] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective
1. involving incest.
2. guilty of incest.
3. being so close or intimate as to prevent proper functioning: an incestuous relationship between organized crime and government.
[Origin: 1525–35; < LL incestuōsus, equiv. to L incestu- s. of incestus incest + -ōsus -ous]
—Related forms
in·ces·tu·ous·ly, adverb
in·ces·tu·ous·ness, noun
Insomniac
11-26-07, 02:05 PM
I think it is unfair to a guy who left one company and gets hired by another has to just ignore part of his knowledge base. It is .like his time at the previous company is wasted if he cannot apply what he learned there. You owe it to your new employer to give them your best instead of selectively ignoring what you know.
I don't think anyone is saying that. You take what's in your head with you. Copying work products onto removable media implies you are taking more than what is in your head (not to mention it's probably theft).
chop456
12-07-07, 08:17 AM
http://www.fia.com/mediacentre/Press_Releases/FIA_Sport/2007/December/071207-01.html
:shakehead
Rogue Leader
12-07-07, 08:43 AM
http://www.fia.com/mediacentre/Press_Releases/FIA_Sport/2007/December/071207-01.html
:shakehead
What were they gonna do, penalize them for sucking all season anyway? Although I can see the otehr side of the coin, whats good for the goose should be good for the gander....
http://www.fia.com/mediacentre/Press_Releases/FIA_Sport/2007/December/071207-01.html
:shakehead
Rob... You are starting to get it. ;)
TrueBrit
12-07-07, 01:16 PM
Complete, total, and utter horse manure....
McLaren gets booted but the Regie skates?
Where are the FIA headquartered again?
What a bunch of bollocks...:shakehead
http://www.fia.com/mediacentre/Press_Releases/FIA_Sport/2007/December/071207-01.html
:shakeheadYou can read chop's Cliff Claven version at the link, or read the Cliff's Notes version:
8.13. Taken together, these factors lead the WMSC to conclude that in the circumstances no penalty can be imposed.
Imposes no penalty due to the lack of evidence that the Championship has been affected.
Not being sarcastic, I just don't remember.
Did the FIA find evidence that the Championship had been affected when McLaren 'spied' on Ferrari? My memory was all the info they got was of no use to Team Lewis.
Insomniac
12-07-07, 02:27 PM
Complete, total, and utter horse manure....
McLaren gets booted but the Regie skates?
Where are the FIA headquartered again?
What a bunch of bollocks...:shakehead
Don't you know McLaren has to appeal to get them to actually enforce a penalty? ;)
McLaren got the exact same outcome at first. It was only after more evidence came to light showing they hadn't been fully forthcoming they got nailed.
However, I feel the same way here. This is ridiculous. They violated the sporting regulations. They should be penalized. It's stupid to say because they didn't use the design it didn't help them.
everyone cheats, let 'em roll w/ what they can get.
This isn't 'Nam, Smokey. There are rules.
http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/8721/biglebowskiwalterbluegajb1.jpg
DagoFast
12-07-07, 04:50 PM
To an outsider, this decision makes it appear Max really does not like Ron Dennis and it's personal. (not that I can blame him for not liking Ron :D )
Meanwhile, beyond the court room circus, with a 10 year freeze on engines and Max's new wind tunnel restrictions, I really have to wonder what the point of F1 is anymore.
Insomniac
12-07-07, 04:52 PM
everyone cheats, let 'em roll w/ what they can get.
But the people who get caught should get punished as well. If it's OK, then drop the rule.
To an outsider, this decision makes it appear Max really does not like Ron Dennis and it's personal. (not that I can blame him for not liking Ron :D )
Meanwhile, beyond the court room circus, with a 10 year freeze on engines and Max's new wind tunnel restrictions, I really have to wonder what the point of F1 is anymore.
I don't like Max. Why can't we vote him off the island?
This crap is beyond rediculous and Max's personal vendetta against Ron makes him look even more biased. Axe the Max. Get rid of the bastard. I am tired of him emasculating the sport I love. :flame:
Jag_Warrior
12-08-07, 08:51 AM
The word you're all thinking of but not saying is "incestuous".
in·ces·tu·ous /ɪnˈsɛstʃuəs/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[in-ses-choo-uhs] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective
1. involving incest.
2. guilty of incest.
3. being so close or intimate as to prevent proper functioning: an incestuous relationship between organized crime and government.
[Origin: 1525–35; < LL incestuōsus, equiv. to L incestu- s. of incestus incest + -ōsus -ous]
—Related forms
in·ces·tu·ous·ly, adverb
in·ces·tu·ous·ness, noun
Come on now, there's no reason to drag West Virginia into this discussion!
:p
Insomniac
12-08-07, 12:25 PM
Come on now, there's no reason to drag West Virginia into this discussion!
:p
Why's it always WV? Why not a more southern state?
Jag_Warrior
12-09-07, 12:23 AM
http://smilies.vidahost.com/contrib/ed/laugh.gif
All in fun. WV is the target because there was an agreement among some 'Hoos not to make any VA Tech jokes til at least next May.
Insomniac
12-09-07, 12:46 AM
http://smilies.vidahost.com/contrib/ed/laugh.gif
All in fun. WV is the target because there was an agreement among some 'Hoos not to make any VA Tech jokes til at least next May.
No, I know. Just wondering really. Seems a lot of people don't even know WV is a state. When I was growing up in Massachusetts it was usually Alabama.
I think a couple Penn State students missed that memo. :eek: :gomer:
Jag_Warrior
12-09-07, 05:18 PM
June 1, 2008, all bets are off. On that day, we're back to "all dirt roads lead to VA Tech". :laugh:
But the people who get caught should get punished as well. If it's OK, then drop the rule.
drop the rule. can't protect your info? too bad.
This isn't 'Nam, Smokey. There are rules.
http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/8721/biglebowskiwalterbluegajb1.jpg
winner. :rofl:
Why's it always WV?
http://www.spreadshirt.com/shops/5000/4880/products/4880_1039072_1_big.jpg
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