Complete and Utter Bulls***

[chop456]

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.I saw nothing by Dominguez that Bourdais didn't do in those last 3 laps.

Bullsh**.

Kniefel. :rolleyes:

[RaceGrrl]

BS BS BS!! That is a double standard to beat all.

[Hot Rod Otis]

If anything, I thought the most blantant block was by Bourdais on the next to last lap coming out of T1. He was definately reacting to Dominquez's move to the inside.

[mello]

Yep I agree. I am so ticked off. Unreal.

[rabbit]

Yep, definitely a circus clown.
:mad:

[Dr. Corkski]

If I am a circus clown I would be suing Paul Tracy for ever comparing me to Kniefel.

[Hink]

I'm not a big Dominguez fan but he had the best car all day.

The block on one of the last few laps by Bourdais was as blatant as it gets.

[trubritz]

Mario deserved that race - too bad the double standard of "blocking" was applied to his detriment. Was there a French veto in force perhaps?

At least with these last 2 races, he's proving he can race with the best of them.

I believe him when he says he will win one this season.

[Lizzerd]

Originally posted by trubritz
Was there a French veto in force perhaps?

Or a French figure skaing judge?

[cart7]

If I had the kind of blocking in the NFL that Frenchy demonstrated today, I'd gain 2000 yards a season. :mad:

[Ziggy]

And the beat goes on..... glad I didnt see the race. I really dont think it was on in Indy. Sounds like another lesson in frustration.

all this talk about Mario? Did the 63 year old get into another car? Your talking about Mario Dominquez? WOW! Did some ID's get switched over there across the pond?

Ziggy

[RaceChic]

Originally posted by Lizzerd
Or a French figure skaing judge?

Now there's a memory for us Canadians.....:thumdown: :thumdown: :thumdown:

[Gurneyflap]

We're glad you didn't see it, too. Then you'd feel like you could actually comment on it with authority. Frustration? Sure? For some. Good race, though. Very IRL-like. Many here'd hate to admit that, but I don't see it as a huge problem. It was a good thing for CART, controversy and all!

[chop456]

Originally posted by Ziggy
And the beat goes on..... glad I didnt see the race. I really dont think it was on in Indy. Sounds like another lesson in frustration.

all this talk about Mario? Did the 63 year old get into another car? Your talking about Mario Dominquez? WOW! Did some ID's get switched over there across the pond?

Ziggy

Yep, Dominguez, believe it or not. The kid drove a good race and did a pretty damn good job of keeping Bourdais behind him while leading. No obvious blocking, no stupid mistakes due to inexperience.

He was warned and then given a 5 sec. pit penalty for blocking after he wasn't blocking. He killed the car in the pits, THEN served the 5 seconds, fought his way back to P2, then was blocked like a mother****er by Bourdais for the last 3-4 laps, and no penalty for him.

Like I said, bull****.

[Warlock!]

Originally posted by Gurneyflap
Very IRL-like.
That's exactly right. So much downforce they could't lose control if they tried ('cept in the pits... waytago, Michelle :rolleyes: ). All I could see was the IRL at Texas. Hold the inside line going into the corner and block on the straights. Even Varsha sounded very Jenkin-esque... "Side by side!" came out at least a few times.

But back on topic... yes... that was bull****. However, I still couldn't get into the race.

Warlock!

[Hot Rod Otis]

You know those cars had to much downforce when Rodolfo Lavin can go a whole race without hitting something.

[cart7]

originally posted by Hot Rod Otis
You know those cars had to much downforce when Rodolfo Lavin can go a whole race without hitting something.
:rofl:

[JoeBob]

I'm probably in the minority on this one, but I don't think that what either driver did was worthy of a penalty. Remember, as Mario Haberfeld showed us at St. Pete, that one move can be a serious block.

Also keep in mind that Dominguez was warned many laps before he got the 5 second penalty. Bourdais would also be entitled to a warning before being penalized. Bourdais probably did enough to get himself a warning (for that huge block), but the race ended before he swerved enough for that warning to be escalated to a black flag. (Not to mention that it would be nearly impossible to assess a 5 second penalty at that point in the race.)

[Lizzerd]

If Bourdais was warned, and I don't know if he was or not, would it be out of line for CART to impose a post race five second penalty?

He would therefore be credited with third, giving the win to Dominquez. I seem to remember this happening in other series (maybe motorcycles). I think that if he was not warned, then the above proposed penalty should not be issued, though.

I'm not advocating this idea, I just want to know what you think about it.

[Kate]

Cart.com still doesn't have a race report up so I wonder if it's under appeal?

The Schumacher Chop was bad enough, but it was merely icing on the cake. Why did Jourdain get a 15 second penalty for dangerous driving in the pitlane -- yet Kermit gets sideways at Pit In and nearly causes a 3 car accident, running Dominguez into the grass to avoid him -- AND on his way out of the pits he nearly runs over a crewman who had to jump for it into another pit box -- NO CALL!

Isn't it a little too early to start handing races to your chosen champion?

Will Dominguez ever just WIN a race? He certainly deserved to win this one. And Bourdais drove a good second place race but he made screw-ups and Dominguez never did. Ice Dancing judges in Race Control occurred to me more than once.

[JoeBob]

I don't want to be the token Kneifel defender here, because I don't agree with everything that happened, but there's a night and day difference between Bourdais braking late getting into the pits and what Jourdain did.

The rules state that leaving the pits, you go to the inside lane until you're up to speed, then move to the outside lane. Jourdain drove directly to the outside lane (which was occupied by Lavin). There's a big difference between that, and braking at the last possible moment to meet the pit road speed limit. It might not be very bright, but it isn't against the rules.

[Dr. Corkski]

The problem with Klownfel that was his inconsistency in applying the rulebook in the Blockdais vs Dominguez battles. The funny thing was that neither side was complaining, and when Klownfel decided to step in to decide the first battle, but then refused to do so at the end. Last I checked they still use the same exact rulebook be it the first lap or last lap.

Re: the Jourdain pit incident - Michel clearly deserved that penalty for blatantly breaking the rules by crossing the line and in the process taking another car out. Bourdais's pit entry, while not the safest way, did not break any rules, but someone should give Sebastien a little talking to about that, but I suspect Klownfel doesn't have the required attachments to do so.

[chop456]

Originally posted by Dr. Zhivago
The problem with Klownfel that was his inconsistency in applying the rulebook in the Blockdais vs Dominguez battles. The funny thing was that neither side was complaining, and when Klownfel decided to step in to decide the first battle, but then refused to do so at the end. Last I checked they still use the same exact rulebook be it the first lap or last lap.

Re: the Jourdain pit incident - Michel clearly deserved that penalty for blatantly breaking the rules by crossing the line and in the process taking another car out. Bourdais's pit entry, while not the safest way, did not break any rules, but someone should give Sebastien a little talking to about that, but I suspect Klownfel doesn't have the required attachments to do so.

I think that sums it up just about perfectly.

That "swallow the whistle" nonsense can't be tolerated.

[nrc]

Unfortunately it would be impossible for Kniefel to be 100% consistant between the two events because there were no more pit stops where they could apply a 5 second penalty.

I find it hard to believe anyone in the stands or at home really wanted to see the race determined in the final laps by the officials.

My view is that the appropriate penalty would be four championship points - the difference between first and second. That takes away the benefit of Boardais' blocking, but doesn't invalidate an exciting finish.

[FortyOneFord]

Originally posted by Gurneyflap
Very IRL-like.

Well, except for the lack of wrecking, multiple debris yellows, and the mandatory broken back, you are correct.

It was disturbing to hear the "side by side" phrase used so much.

Great race, though.

[chop456]

Also true.

[Hink]

Originally posted by nrc
<snip> I find it hard to believe anyone in the stands or at home really wanted to see the race determined in the final laps by the officials.

My view is that the appropriate penalty would be four championship points - the difference between first and second. That takes away the benefit of Boardais' blocking, but doesn't invalidate an exciting finish.

I see where you're coming from about an audience not wanting to see a race decided by the officials at the end. However making the blocking call on Bourdais would not have been questionable - you couldn't miss it. To stretch it a bit I could also contend that since the block was so clear cut that call had to be made and as such Bourdais determined the result of the race by blocking and not the officials for calling the block. The audience may not see it that way though (?) I really don't know.

Jourdain also avoided a penalty for pulling out of the pits the way he did today. Both Bourdais' block near the inside wall (1) and Jourdain's pit exit swerve (2) were unusually wreckless.

(1) Imagine them straightlining the corner full head on into the cement if they got together and busted their suspension. They would be much more likely to get a bad angle.
(2) "Rubbin'" in the pits with all the people around is wrong.

[Kate]

Jourdain did in fact get a penalty for dangerous driving in the pitlane -- 15 seconds added to a pitstop. Bourdais, on the other hand, got no penalty for a dangerous entrance AND a dangerous exit. This is the Michael Andretti type officiating that I thought we had dispensed with now that Mikey has jumped ship.

We don't need to encourage people to commit rules violations in the last few laps of a race knowing they will not be caught and punished. That is encouraging recklessness and will lead to some last=lap crashes and Lavin getting his first win by avoiding a ten car wreck on the finish line.

[Dr. Corkski]

Jourdain clearly violated a rule in the rulebook, it was not even a judgement call. Kniefel had no choice. For all I care even had there been no accident Jourdain still should have gotten penalised.

Bourdais' pit entry was a judgement call left at the discretion of the "officials".

[Napoleon]

Originally posted by chop456
Yep, Dominguez, believe it or not. The kid drove a good race and did a pretty damn good job of keeping Bourdais behind him while leading.

I am surprised you are the only one who mentioned this. He ran a very good race.

[RaceGrrl]

The difference between Dominguez and Bourdais is that Bourdais, by weaving wildly behind Dominguez, managed to get the attention of the officials. Dominguez did make some position changes, but nothing as blatant as Sebastien did.

Bourdais' blocking was obvious but he still managed to get away with it. Not only that, I think he should have been penalized for his on the grass excursion and for bringing crap up into the racing line. That was stupid and dangerous.

Dominguez had the car, Bourdais had the officials. Can't beat that.

[Treeface]

Mario shouldn't have been penalized. It didn't change the outcome of the race.

[Hink]

Thanks Kate - Didn't realize that Jourdain got a penalty. In that case good call.

[nrc]

The good thing that everyone seems to be missing is that the officials are using the latitude that has been given them under the rules to assess penalties that are appropriate to the circumstances. The five second hold in the pits is a much more fair penalty than a drive through under a lot of circumstances. How to handle these situations when all the stops are complete remains an issue.

I do find it disappointing that, according to the pit notes, Bourdais was never even warned for blocking in those final laps. The only way I can imagine the stewards justifying that is if their penalty against Dominguez was based on the idea that his blocking forced Bourdais' off track excursion.

[JLMannin]

IMO, Bourdais went off course to create the illusion of blocking. Classic N/H trickery. :cool:

[Simple Norm]

Simple explanation: The infraction calls for a warning for the first offence and a penelty only after the same offence again and the driver had recieved the warning.
Bourdais was saved by the bell

Murphy's law does not exempt racing.

Prozac anyone?:) :)

[WickerBill]

Originally posted by Simple Norm


Prozac anyone?:) :)


No no no, Prozac's off patent. You mean Zyprexa!