ESPN - Open Wheel Held Hostage, Year 13

[WickerBill]

http://sports.espn.go.com/rpm/columns/story?seriesId=1&columnist=oreovicz_john&id=3180918

Thoughts?


Just thought I'd pick at a 13 year old scab we all have... I didn't see anyone else had posted this here.

[EDwardo]

George's decision could arguably be seen as a billion-dollar blunder

This sums it up for me.

[WickerBill]

When your #1 confidant doesn't have the education to pronounce "quality" correctly in a national television commercial, it might be time to surround yourself with new confidants.

[stroker]

The phrase "Held Hostage" is crap. It's not either literally or figuratively true.

He could have just consolidated his section on Michael Andretti with:

"Yen Whore. 'Nuff said."

[jonovision_man]

His article is confusing... first he talks about who is responsible for "prolonging" it, then he dredges up the ancient history of what happened way back when it first split.

Listing Foyt, Andretti, Penske, Rahal as prolonging it by providing the IRL car count? C'mon, that's weak, why didn't he list Newman-Haas as helping ChampCar with car count? If either series is so near death that a few teams pulling the plug would force it to fold or merge, it's CCWS.

And Ecclestone? :rolleyes: The guy has squat to do with US OW these days, it's not on his radar in the least. It's not even a threat in America, let alone F1's dominance anywhere else in the world. He's probably more concerned about A1GP, and he's not even concerned with that...

There are only two people prolonging it: Tony George and Kevin Kalkhoven, they should be #1 and #2 on that list. If they were serious about a merger, it'd be done.

jono

[Methanolandbrats]

There are only two people prolonging it: Tony George and Kevin Kalkhoven, they should be #1 and #2 on that list. If they were serious about a merger, it'd be done.

jono

How is Kalkhoven "prolonging" it? He is only guilty of trying to save it. Kalkhoven is a successful international businessman and George is a blithering idiot who can not even manage a billion dollar inheritance. Given that, how exactly do a successful businessman and a moron "merge"? Many argue since George has Indy, he should be given control to "save" the sport. That's laughable given George's track record managing the IRL.

[jonovision_man]

How is Kalkhoven "prolonging" it? He is only guilty of trying to save it. Kalkhoven is a successful international businessman and George is a blithering idiot who can not even manage a billion dollar inheritance. Given that, how exactly do a successful businessman and a moron "merge"? Many argue since George has Indy, he should be given control to "save" the sport. That's laughable given George's track record managing the IRL.

What's laughable is thinking that Tony is going to go away. He's not. The split only ends with a merger or CCWS closing its doors, both of which are in KK's hands.

This list was about "prolonging the ridiculous power struggle that has crippled this form of motorsport", and the only answer to ending that struggle is going to involve Tony George, one way or the other.

jono

[eiregosod]

why write about open wheel when one can take out a real estate licence?

[Methanolandbrats]

What's laughable is thinking that Tony is going to go away. He's not. The split only ends with a merger or CCWS closing its doors, both of which are in KK's hands.

This list was about "prolonging the ridiculous power struggle that has crippled this form of motorsport", and the only answer to ending that struggle is going to involve Tony George, one way or the other.

jono Correct, he's not going away. If he takes control of all of open wheel racing he will run it completely into the ground in another 10 years. Indy does'nt matter, it's not coming back, Tony killed it. Either find a new direction or hang it up.

[Andrew Longman]

The split only ends with a merger or CCWS closing its doors, both of which are in KK's hands.

KK closing CC doors is a choice he could make but it doesn't necessarily end the split in the sense that many fans, events, sponsors and participants don't want anything to do with racing as interpreted by TG and the IRL. They'll simply find something else to do if they haven't already.

As far as KK choosing not to merge with TG, it is on the record that he has tried several times, but any merger KK agrees to will be one he can agree to. If a merger leaves too little for the CC side (commercially, competitively and and in terms of how the sport is interpreted - e.g., to much emphasis on Indy at the expense of the entire season) then their is no reason to agree to a merger.

No, the obstacle sits squarely with TG and sadly it probably doesn't matter much anymore.

[dando]

why write about open wheel when one can take out a real estate licence?

And why post about it? :gomer:

And the answer is that the shape of real estate in the US is pretty much as bad as the shape of US OW racing. :(

-Kevin

[dando]

and Champ Car currently stands without a single confirmed driver/team combination, it makes everyone involved in American open-wheel racing look like an idiot.

Well, that's wrong. We know we have one. :gomer:

Quite frankly, I could have written this article much shorter...the list should be just one individual: FTG. Then again, a list really isn't a list with just one entry. :gomer: Irregardless of what happened before or after The Split, FTG's stupidity and stubbornness is what created and continues The Split. Certainly others played a role, but FTG took the bait hook, line and sinker, and is so full of himself he can't or won't go back. Either that or his grey matter is so ****ed up that he fails to have any cogent thoughts. :mad:

Billion $ blunder is the under statement of this short year. :shakehead

-Kevin

[jonovision_man]

KK closing CC doors is a choice he could make but it doesn't necessarily end the split in the sense that many fans, events, sponsors and participants don't want anything to do with racing as interpreted by TG and the IRL. They'll simply find something else to do if they haven't already.

KK wouldn't just close doors, he would want LB and Toronto to continue for sure, since he owns them. So it would be a merger of sorts, even in the worst-case scenario.


As far as KK choosing not to merge with TG, it is on the record that he has tried several times, but any merger KK agrees to will be one he can agree to. If a merger leaves too little for the CC side (commercially, competitively and and in terms of how the sport is interpreted - e.g., to much emphasis on Indy at the expense of the entire season) then their is no reason to agree to a merger.

Question for you then... do you really think CCWS can be turned around, as-is, without a merger? I think it's next to impossible... since the bankruptcy things have only gone downhill, you see it at the races and you see it in just about any indicator, from grid size to the way the events are dropped. It's getting so hard just to put together a schedule and grid, every year they cut it closer. If this Europe thing doesn't work out, I'm not sure the series can even survive.


No, the obstacle sits squarely with TG and sadly it probably doesn't matter much anymore.

He's the biggest obstacle certainly, but KK's also got to realize he's not holding very many cards anymore... both sides need to be realistic and throw each other a bone.

jono

[STD]

Bernie's slot is well earned. But J-MB and Mosely need to be added to that story line before the split. All had many contacts with Tony in the early ninties. Helped light the fire and stood back roasting marshmallows.
CART was indeed once a threat to them. That long since is no longer the case.

Love the real estate licence idea. Sounds like a smart team owner's approach. :p

[Warlock!]

http://sports.espn.go.com/rpm/columns/story?seriesId=1&columnist=oreovicz_john&id=3180918

Thoughts?
Nope... not on this subject.

Not anymore, anyways.

[emjaya]

Interesting enough read, but it dosn't tell us anything we didn't already know, eg; Tony George is the only one who can bring it together, but won't.

:\

[Gnam]

A vector analysis of the current AOW situation.

http://img236.imageshack.us/img236/5741/vectorsbo8.jpg

While the tug-of-war has stabilzied, preventing either side from dragging the sport toward them, the growing weight of apathy is pulling them all down. Unless they find a way to cooperate and start pulling against apathy, the sport will continue to sink.

The good news is neither side has to reverse direction in order to work together. If both sides changed direction just a little bit toward each other, they could pull against apathy and start to lift AOW.

http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/5892/vectors2ar6.jpg

What form this cooperation would take is up to them, but I would try for something small. Each side should retain it's identity so they can be seen working together. They could share a department or key personnel. Not marketing. ;) They could test at the same track. They could even share one race date. Not Indy. They won't be on the track at the same time, but they would share the same paddock.

In short, **** a merger. Just cooperate.

[eiregosod]

Bernie's slot is well earned. But J-MB and Mosely need to be added to that story line before the split. All had many contacts with Tony in the early ninties. Helped light the fire and stood back roasting marshmallows.
CART was indeed once a threat to them. That long since is no longer the case.

Love the real estate licence idea. Sounds like a smart team owner's approach. :p


the ole 3.5 Liter NA spec for the 1993 Indy 500 , as proposed by JMB & Mosely. Run 250 miles then wait 4 hours to change engines :laugh: :laugh:


Nice to see John Cooper getting a mention. I saw his name crop up first on these boards a few eyars ago. Any mention of the NASCAR conspiracy ttheory brings out a rash in the over-sensitive NASCArweenies that populate the open wheel boards.

[jonovision_man]

A vector analysis of the current AOW situation.
http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/5892/vectors2ar6.jpg



Do you do corporate presentations?

If you keep going with that, you'll see that when apathy pulls even harder, ChampCar and IRL start to weaken... then apathy overpowers all, the CC and IRL arrows will smash together and we'll have only one series.

Done! :D

Kind of like the hands in a jumping jack (ignoring the legs):
http://www.experimentalgameplay.com/cm/b/105/jumping_jacks.png

jono

[Andrew Longman]

Question for you then... do you really think CCWS can be turned around, as-is, without a merger? I think it's next to impossible... since the bankruptcy things have only gone downhill, you see it at the races and you see it in just about any indicator, from grid size to the way the events are dropped.

In many (not nearly all) respects things have been getting better. Attendance and corporate participation has gone up every year at several events. Cleveland was practically dead a few years ago but is back to being a real successful event. Last year TO and Oz was better than in years. Yes the Euro thing has to work, but those races were labeled successes last year.

Overall 07 was a disappointment, but not everything is broken. Can it be turned around? Sure. Will it be anywhere near 95 anytime soon? No, merger or no merger.

But yes it would be better to have the 500 on the schedule and more cars on the grid and the endless bickering to stop.

[G.]

Do you do corporate presentations?

http://www.experimentalgameplay.com/cm/b/105/jumping_jacks.png
Do you?
It would appear that you have had some success in presenting to upper management.:p

[ChrisB]

One of the things prolonging this "split" is the perception that the 2 series are similar and "should" be together. But what if one side unilaterally did something that changes this perception?

What if CC unilaterally changed its name to "Formula A" away from Champcar. implying that its truly a formula RR series instead of "champ car" which implies that it's derived from USAC Champ car racing from Indy?

Or...

What if the IRL unilaterally changed to a non-aero modern front-engine car with the implication that it would be the top tier of the American OW oval racing ladder, instead of a "formula car" series?

Split ends. :)

[DagoFast]

Do you?
It would appear that you have had some success in presenting to upper management.:p

That would explain why all the Canadian sponsors have disappeared. :rofl:

[pchall]

One of the things prolonging this "split" is the perception that the 2 series are similar and "should" be together. But what if one side unilaterally did something that changes this perception?

What if CC unilaterally changed its name to "Formula A" away from Champcar. implying that its truly a formula RR series instead of "champ car" which implies that it's derived from USAC Champ car racing from Indy?

Or...

What if the IRL unilaterally changed to a non-aero modern front-engine car with the implication that it would be the top tier of the American OW oval racing ladder, instead of a "formula car" series?

Split ends. :)

"Formula A" would work for the hardcore, but when new names were bandied about years ago I always advocated the American Grand Prix Series since a broader audience understands the notion of a GP race.

As for your IRL suggestion, that has been the hardcore :gomer: wet dream for ages, but :tony: has been too stupid to understand. And I really don't care if a broader audience would see a modern roadster as the top tier of AOW oval racing or not.

[coolhand]

*Snore

I have heard this conversation a lot of times, I am much happier not even thinking about it anymore. It is liberating.

[jonovision_man]

Do you?
It would appear that you have had some success in presenting to upper management.:p

I presented that to the CART management right before the split, but nobody would listen. ;)

jono

[jcollins28]

For all the hate that has been spread around for the last 13 years John Cooper has not received his fair share. Also how on earth did Leo Mehl escape not being named on this who's who list of people that screwed up our sport.

[Wally]

The list is incomplete without clarky on it....:thumdown:

[Andrew Longman]

For all the hate that has been spread around for the last 13 years John Cooper has not received his fair share. Also how on earth did Leo Mehl escape not being named on this who list of people that screwed up our sport.

No kidding. Clark too. And it has 11 people on it which seems pretty random. Why not add two more?

Putting KK on there seems weak by comparison especially when this is the only reason given:
And when there is a breakdown, fault cannot be directed completely toward one side

When one side is unreasonable it does not require the other side to be lose reason.

[Sean Malone]

No kidding. Clark too. And it has 11 people on it which seems pretty random. Why not add two more?

Putting KK on there seems weak by comparison especially when this is the only reason given:

When one side is unreasonable it does not require the other side to be lose reason.

He was only trying to manage his hate mail by putting KK on the list.

[Hard Driver]

One of the things prolonging this "split" is the perception that the 2 series are similar and "should" be together. But what if one side unilaterally did something that changes this perception?

What if CC unilaterally changed its name to "Formula A" away from Champcar. implying that its truly a formula RR series instead of "champ car" which implies that it's derived from USAC Champ car racing from Indy?

Or...

What if the IRL unilaterally changed to a non-aero modern front-engine car with the implication that it would be the top tier of the American OW oval racing ladder, instead of a "formula car" series?

Split ends. :)

I would not change names, but I agree with a changed attitude. Champcar seems to push it's ties to the glory years as some validation of their status or something.

I think that Champcar should push to redefine itself as what it is today and absolutely forget the past. Champcar is the top tier formula racing series based in North America. It is the step above the atlantics. It is a true drivers series with all the drivers and teams competing with equal equipment.

And the 'spec" series side of things should not be some secret, it should be an advertising point. It is a true drivers series. Then highlight what a great car the DP01 is, with the power and the downforce. Push how much faster they are than stock cars.

I think what the impression or maessage of champcar should be is not the perpetual rebuilding to what it once was. I think the message should all be about what a great series it is now and all the fantastic racing it has to offer.

If you like a atlantics race or a formula mazda race, then the top tier is Champcar and it is unique.

[opinionated ow]

I would not change names, but I agree with a changed attitude. Champcar seems to push it's ties to the glory years as some validation of their status or something.

I think that Champcar should push to redefine itself as what it is today and absolutely forget the past. Champcar is the top tier formula racing series based in North America. It is the step above the atlantics. It is a true drivers series with all the drivers and teams competing with equal equipment.

And the 'spec" series side of things should not be some secret, it should be an advertising point. It is a true drivers series. Then highlight what a great car the DP01 is, with the power and the downforce. Push how much faster they are than stock cars.

I think what the impression or maessage of champcar should be is not the perpetual rebuilding to what it once was. I think the message should all be about what a great series it is now and all the fantastic racing it has to offer.

If you like a atlantics race or a formula mazda race, then the top tier is Champcar and it is unique.

And you hit your big roadblock. The only people with road racing interest in your neck of the woods don't GAF for "spec" series and al of them know what champ car was. nothing but a clean break with absolutely no ties to the past is going to help them.

[emjaya]

And you hit your big roadblock. The only people with road racing interest in your neck of the woods don't GAF for "spec" series and al of them know what champ car was. nothing but a clean break with absolutely no ties to the past is going to help them.

I think you're wrong.

[mueber]

I'm way past caring who is to blame, just fix it.

[Insomniac]

I'm way past caring who is to blame, just fix it.

It's past fixing unless NASCAR makes an equally colossal screw up IMO.

I should add that I mean getting back to pre-1995. It could at least be a better on track product if they had one series, brought the mix back and had more cars at every race with talented drivers.

[oddlycalm]

When you get down to it, one man started the current American open-wheel racing split, and that same one man has the ability to instantly end it He could have left out the rest as far as I'm concerned. Without this tewl all the rest of the noise wouldn't have much bearing on anything.

oc

[Wally]

Anyone take the time to scan the reader comments at the end of the article? :laugh: :shakehead