Kirby. Must read

[G.]

ouch. That'll leave a mark! (http://www.gordonkirby.com/categories/columns/theway/2008/the_way_it_is_no109.html)

Long read, but full of history and insight.

[dando]

The answer is no, unless Gurney feels like writing another white paper that :tony: is unable to read or comprehend. I'm afraid the horse is dead, Kirby. Quit beating on it. :(



Clarke believes the key to attracting other manufacturers into the IRL is to write hybrid and energy-preserving technologies into the rules for 2011, matters discussed at length in this space over the course of last year.

"My thought is the series needs to become more relevant in using a product and technology which is related more toward production car technologies," Clarke said. "We need something that we can actually talk about and promote. Right now, there's nothing we can talk about, other than Honda quality and reliability.

"If the IRL were to embrace real-world challenges like fuel consumption, emmissions, noise, and using energy better, I think other manufacturers will take notice. Hopefully, that would cause them to enter the series because they really can't afford to let us continue to do it on our own and not be involved.

IMHO, turning the EARL into a science project to save fuel to gain mfg and fan interest is *********. Indy was built on speed and daring to go faster than anyone else. Once the thrill of that was reduced and eventually eliminated, Indy lost its luster in the eyes of the public. Think anyone wants to watch a field of Priuses tool around the speedway trying to extend their fuel? Puhleeze. :shakehead

-Kevin

[Sean Malone]

The Champ Car brass is too busy posting at CCF.

I thought there was an internet savior that was going to fix all this?

Big thinking? KK and co should sell it all to NASCAR. :)

[Insomniac]

The answer is no, unless Gurney feels like writing another white paper that :tony: is unable to read or comprehend. I'm afraid the horse is dead, Kirby. Quit beating on it. :(



IMHO, turning the EARL into a science project to save fuel to gain mfg and fan interest is *********. Indy was built on speed and daring to go faster than anyone else. Once the thrill of that was reduced and eventually eliminated, Indy lost its luster in the eyes of the public. Think anyone wants to watch a field of Priuses tool around the speedway trying to extend their fuel? Puhleeze. :shakehead

-Kevin

Robin Miller made a great suggestion a while back. He said give them X gallons of fuel per race. Whatever type of engine you want to use is up to you. So you give them 100 gallons of some type of fuel to run the Indy 500. Build the best engine you can that runs on 5 MPG or better.

[dando]

Robin Miller made a great suggestion a while back. He said give them X gallons of fuel per race. Whatever type of engine you want to use is up to you. So you give them 100 gallons of some type of fuel to run the Indy 500. Build the best engine you can that runs on 5 MPG or better.

I remember that. I just don't see how the public will view that as compelling.

-Kevin

[Spicoli]

IRL and Champ Car can talk all they like about this or that marketing scheme as they have over the past dozen years to the point of utter tedium. The fact is all that marketing piffle is entirely irrelevant until they get the technical formula right and provide the right manufacturer-driven environment to reproduce a reputable, professional racing series and a new generation of superstars.



Ummmmmm.:gomer: Wrong.


Neither series has kept any kind of plan in place long enough for it to gain any traction. Motorock, Gene Simmons, Cars & Stars, etc....change your mind/direction/staff/focus every season and do the whatever the Japs tell you to do and you end up ****ing yourself everytime.:shakehead

GF is right in that ovals are pretty much done (although many of us here would like a couple/few on the schedule) for several reasons: Safety, can't fill a NASCAR stadium so it looks full, $$$ costs of crashes, lack of support series, has to stand on its own, etc.

Oval = NASTARD. Let EARL chase that crap, its over, CCWS has proved it, EARL is proving it, and Jim Wilke is pretty sure NASCAR is losing ground with it.:tony:

So move on.

CCWS is and should be about marketing drivers, a weekend full of alot of on track activity & support series, road racing, street racing, airport racing and booze and cars, cars, cars. The RA weekend appeals more to me than the I500 weekend of parades, balls, gomers on the PA, and dumbdick FTG waving a flag. Its a good form of entertainment, they just have ZERO consistency in everything. Like driver lineup, teams, sponsors, cars, etc etc etc.

Oh yeah, and I hear CCWS is reducing/has reduced its staff AGAIN.:thumdown:

[SteveH]

Oh yeah, and I hear CCWS is reducing/has reduced its staff AGAIN.:thumdown:

So, the rumor of Steve Johnson being shown the door will finally come true? Where did that rumor come from, anyway?

[Sean Malone]

Ummmmmm.:gomer: Wrong.


Neither series has kept any kind of plan in place long enough for it to gain any traction. Motorock, Gene Simmons, Cars & Stars, etc....change your mind/direction/staff/focus every season and do the whatever the Japs tell you to do and you end up ****ing yourself everytime.:shakehead

GF is right in that ovals are pretty much done (although many of us here would like a couple/few on the schedule) for several reasons: Safety, can't fill a NASCAR stadium so it looks full, $$$ costs of crashes, lack of support series, has to stand on its own, etc.

Oval = NASTARD. Let EARL chase that crap, its over, CCWS has proved it, EARL is proving it, and Jim Wilke is pretty sure NASCAR is losing ground with it.:tony:

So move on.

CCWS is and should be about marketing drivers, a weekend full of alot of on track activity & support series, road racing, street racing, airport racing and booze and cars, cars, cars. The RA weekend appeals more to me than the I500 weekend of parades, balls, gomers on the PA, and dumbdick FTG waving a flag. Its a good form of entertainment, they just have ZERO consistency in everything. Like driver lineup, teams, sponsors, cars, etc etc etc.

Oh yeah, and I hear CCWS is reducing/has reduced its staff AGAIN.:thumdown:

The ol' "drivers vs cars" debate. I like Oreo Serbia (to grab a name out of a hat) but honestly, no matter how much marketing he gets, will he gain America's attention? <<see Helio>>.

[jonovision_man]

CCWS is and should be about marketing drivers, a weekend full of alot of on track activity & support series, road racing, street racing, airport racing and booze and cars, cars, cars. The RA weekend appeals more to me than the I500 weekend of parades, balls, gomers on the PA, and dumbdick FTG waving a flag. Its a good form of entertainment, they just have ZERO consistency in everything. Like driver lineup, teams, sponsors, cars, etc etc etc.

What was the attendance at RA? Up a bit with ALMS, but it's still ridiculously hard to draw people out of the cities... I don't see it as significantly different than the problem the IRL has getting people out to their ovals.

Bottom line: US OW isn't worth traveling to for the vast majority of people. Until it is, these races are money pits.

jono

[nissan gtp]

meh, nothing new there

basically it's all crap on both sides. both formulas are boring, the on-track talent is weak, tv coverage sucks, and the leaders don't have a clue :yuck:

other than that, I'm optimistic :laugh:

[G.]

What was the attendance at RA? Up a bit with ALMS,
jonoAttendance was up QUITE a bit with ALMS.

I had to camp in BFE, and I arrived early Thurs. eve.

Rumors of a mass exodus after the Sat feature are greatly exaggerated, btw. Most of them came back Sun AM (not ALL, tbh).

Go.

[Spicoli]

So, the rumor of Steve Johnson being shown the door will finally come true? Where did that rumor come from, anyway?

:D

He's not running the show anymore.

[Spicoli]

What was the attendance at RA? Up a bit with ALMS, but it's still ridiculously hard to draw people out of the cities... I don't see it as significantly different than the problem the IRL has getting people out to their ovals.

Bottom line: US OW isn't worth traveling to for the vast majority of people. Until it is, these races are money pits.

jono

Fair enuf.


but how many gomers even pay for EARL races? :marlboro: NFW that EARL makes any money on those races outside of Indy. NFW. CCWS cuts costs and they can make it profitable. IMFHO. :cry: But then there's that cobnsistency thing in markets, dribers, teams, media, all over again...:shakehead

[ChrisB]

I agree with Dando above... "green" issues are nice, but they don't sell racing tickets.

Robin Miller made a great suggestion a while back. He said give them X gallons of fuel per race. Whatever type of engine you want to use is up to you. So you give them 100 gallons of some type of fuel to run the Indy 500. Build the best engine you can that runs on 5 MPG or better.

I say spec chassis... but unlimited engines... and everyone stops for fuel at the same time at mandated laps.

[OW]

I agree with Dando above... "green" issues are nice, but they don't sell racing tickets.

Robin Miller made a great suggestion a while back. He said give them X gallons of fuel per race. Whatever type of engine you want to use is up to you. So you give them 100 gallons of some type of fuel to run the Indy 500. Build the best engine you can that runs on 5 MPG or better.

I say spec chassis... but unlimited engines... and everyone stops for fuel at the same time at mandated laps.

OK I'll imagine with this...Nice try, but your premiss if self conflicting.....same chassis ..OK...but unlimited engine *make* requires NON-Dictated mandated stops.

Just thinkin'

[Sean Malone]

Minimum - 2 chassis, 2 engines, 22 cars, 1 series.

[Insomniac]

I remember that. I just don't see how the public will view that as compelling.

-Kevin

From my view, they've been slowing the cars down as it is, so the days of new track records at Indy are probably going away. If it brought in new manufacturers who built different engines, it might lead to more action/passing on track. That, along with better car counts would cover up a lot of other things.

[Insomniac]

Minimum - 2 chassis, 2 engines, 22 cars, 1 series.

2 tires too!

[oddlycalm]

Kirby and Miller will never stop with the bitterness because their worlds have been diminished along with the pay checks. If eloquent words could solve the problem it would have been resolved a long time ago.

Thanks to TG there's an entire new generation that grew up thinking NASCAR is what racing is about. Reunification would have been a good strategy 10yrs ago, but at this point it's moot. Reviving professional formula car racing in the US would take massive star power along with a stable and well run organization. Probably a 1% chance of that happening.

oc

[dando]

Reviving professional formula car racing in the US would take massive star power along with a stable and well run organization. Probably a 1% chance of that happening.

oc

Such the optimist as usual. :gomer:

-Kevin

[dando]

From my view, they've been slowing the cars down as it is, so the days of new track records at Indy are probably going away. If it brought in new manufacturers who built different engines, it might lead to more action/passing on track. That, along with better car counts would cover up a lot of other things.

Sorry, but more mpgs doesn't equate to the visceral feeling of the speed runs of the past. And yes, the days of "a new track record" are very much over, and have been for a long time. :shakehead

-Kevin

[Insomniac]

Sorry, but more mpgs doesn't equate to the visceral feeling of the speed runs of the past. And yes, the days of "a new track record" are very much over, and have been for a long time. :shakehead

-Kevin

Incremental changes though. Really, the more important factor of that is the hope it would attract manufacturers who want the fastest "green" engine and that different engines would end the spec racing/parades.

[Spicoli]

green is ok.
pushing 1200 hp out of a .6 L 4cyl. turbo is better. :gomer:

:crapwagons:

[Methanolandbrats]

Screw Green. Motorsports is lapping as fast as possible without leaving the road. End of story. How much fuel is consumed does'nt matter. The amount of fuel used in motorsport amounts to about 0.0000000000000000001 % of the total fuel consumed on Earth. WGAF. God I miss the days of toxic F1 brews and qualifying motors. :cry:

[G.]

Screw Green. Motorsports is lapping as fast as possible without leaving the road. End of story. How much fuel is consumed does'nt matter. The amount of fuel used in motorsport amounts to about 0.0000000000000000001 % of the total fuel consumed on Earth. WGAF. God I miss the days of toxic F1 brews and qualifying motors. :cry:A chance to get manufacturers to jump in?

They are all trying to go green, FWIW, and giving them a chance to have a PR coup, they might bite. :shrug:

Going as fast as fark-all, while being environmentally correct, I think they want that.

But Fast needs to be a part of this.

[Indy]

Kirby is right.

Pissing off the media was a smart move, eh?

[Sean Malone]

I'm with meth; screw 'green'. Aren't the emissions practically nil anyway? Bring back innovation and yes, upping a record by .001 and .01 is still upping the record, not dumbing it down ala the IRL.

I don't think 'green' racing criteria is going to entice manufactures to join. They have enough press with their university sponsorship where kids make solar cars that go 13.4 mph across the Australian Outback. :gomer:

Remember that 800lb gorilla sitting in the corner? That's NASCAR, he runs on gasoline and I'm guessing he has a carbon footprint of 10 IRL's and Champ Cars combined and the manufactures are tripping over themselves for a ride on his back.

[extramundane]

I'm with meth; screw 'green'. Aren't the emissions practically nil anyway?

I can't find it now, but I did read a fairly reasonably article in the not too distant past which pegged auto racing's environmental footprint as a very small percentage of the total automotive environmental footprint.

I would like to see some soft of comparison between emissions and such across the various racing series.

Besides, someone else is already running with the "green" torch.
http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/2055/green6mj3.jpg

:rolleyes:

[Insomniac]

I'm with meth; screw 'green'. Aren't the emissions practically nil anyway? Bring back innovation and yes, upping a record by .001 and .01 is still upping the record, not dumbing it down ala the IRL.

I don't think 'green' racing criteria is going to entice manufactures to join. They have enough press with their university sponsorship where kids make solar cars that go 13.4 mph across the Australian Outback. :gomer:

Remember that 800lb gorilla sitting in the corner? That's NASCAR, he runs on gasoline and I'm guessing he has a carbon footprint of 10 IRL's and Champ Cars combined and the manufactures are tripping over themselves for a ride on his back.

It's the idea that "green" might entice manufacturer's more than the idea that racing is causing vast amounts of pollution and needs to go green. I don't know if it would entice other manufacturers or not. Right now, they have a spec engine which they can make faster or slower whenever they feel like it. That's not exactly getting you and M&B what you want either. Who knows, maybe CC has approached some manufacturers and asked them what it would take for them to come back and they all said nothing or something that would never happen.

IMO, "green" competition is better than a spec engine.

[Sean Malone]

It's the idea that "green" might entice manufacturer's more than the idea that racing is causing vast amounts of pollution and needs to go green. I don't know if it would entice other manufacturers or not. Right now, they have a spec engine which they can make faster or slower whenever they feel like it. That's not exactly getting you and M&B what you want either. Who knows, maybe CC has approached some manufacturers and asked them what it would take for them to come back and they all said nothing or something that would never happen.

IMO, "green" competition is better than a spec engine.

Not me. 'green' is so vague and comes off as jumping on the environmental bandwagon just so Green Peace doesn't make an example of them.

[STD]

LOL

[jonovision_man]

It's the idea that "green" might entice manufacturer's more than the idea that racing is causing vast amounts of pollution and needs to go green. I don't know if it would entice other manufacturers or not.

I don't know if US OW is high enough profile to entice manufacturers anymore... but asking them to build anything that doesn't help them build new road cars would likely be a non-starter.

Look at the diesel project for Audi, that's out of a desire to make diesel engine technology better so they can sell more Audis.

Look at what Corvette is doing - switching to E85.

And look in the Kirby article:


"My thought is the series needs to become more relevant in using a product and technology which is related more toward production car technologies," Clarke said. "We need something that we can actually talk about and promote. Right now, there's nothing we can talk about, other than Honda quality and reliability.

"If the IRL were to embrace real-world challenges like fuel consumption, emmissions, noise, and using energy better, I think other manufacturers will take notice. Hopefully, that would cause them to enter the series because they really can't afford to let us continue to do it on our own and not be involved.

"Every manufacturer is living and dying with the perception of the public," Clarke added. "You have to try to be a leader in those areas and other than ALMS there's no series in American racing that's embracing those things. The ALMS is a very good series but they don't have a race that's anything close to the Indy 500. So there's a great opportunity out there if the IRL do it right."

And this is what he's talking about with respect to ALMS:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/64713


Chevrolet's decision to run the greener fuel comes on the back of the ALMS announcing partnerships with three environmental bodies in America, which it will use to encourage more teams and manufacturers to make the switch to bio-fuel.

It's the future, it's where car manufacturers want to be, and ALMS is getting it exactly right... time for US OW to take action.

jono

[Methanolandbrats]

Nothing wrong with different fuels as long as the emphasis is on going fast and not a lowest emissions contest, fuel economy competition, lessening the impact of motorsports or some such bull****. Remember, motorsports is about lapping as quickly as you can without leaving the road. That has to remain the only real goal, anything else is just more watered down crap and we've already got more than enough of that. :yuck:

[OW]

Yeah...this thread is kinda all over the place....

Dictate type of Gas? and Limit Gas Quantity?

Add: Spec Cars? (for neutralizing chassis costs)

Allow Engine development freedom? - No Cash Limit? --

Or

Spec Engines and unlimited chasis? - naw that wouldnt work

I agree Green Shmeen... unless it poses *intrigue*
I agree racing is about racing
But understand the need to "window the costs"

S**** Iv'e confused myself :\

[miatanut]

IMO, "green" competition is better than a spec engine.

That's right! What if we had an open kinetic energy recovery formula? Open as in ANYTHING GOES! Dump minimum weights. Just safety tests. Some manufacturers would spend more weight on that system to get an extra boost for passing, some would save weight and have a car which was faster in the turns. In other words, we get back to cars with differing capabilities, so we would get passing again. Racing would become interesting again.

Couple that with rules like sportscar racing where you can't work on the car while refueling, and slow refueling rings. You can use as much fuel as you want, you're just going to lose a lot of time in the pit. Tortoises and hares racing against each other. Both going flat-out when they are on the track.

I'm bored with the lack of technology in racing these days, except in F1 where it is ridiculous technology which will never translate to road cars. Having a wide-open technology race revolving around something which would actually prove useful to road cars would attract manufacturers and bring back the kind of racing some of us have been missing for years.

[shaggy_socal]

Racing in its simplest form is "I'm faster than you and I can prove it."
If you want to change the technical rules and go green, great. Just don't violate racing's basic premise.

[OW]

.....ANYTHING GOES! I'm bored with the lack of technology in racing these days, except in F1........

YOU SAID IT MAN!!!!

BTW: Openwheel invented rear view mirrors..........Otherwise today, we'd all be unable to drive our cars without "an Enginner" on the passenger side...

[Napoleon]

I basically agree with Kirby. For the last few years I have thought the I500 should consider going all electric. Face it, at some point the ever faster speeds reaches its limit, and that happened long ago. A change to some kind of technilogical basis that is differant then other series gives the formula its best chance to revive itself.