The 'M' Word again...

[extramundane]

Miller's latest (http://www.speedtv.com/articles/auto/champcar/42686/)

Discuss and/or melt down at will. :)

[cameraman]

My response to all of that is simple:

http://www.americanlemans.com/drivers_and_teams/Images/313222007154626171.png

[Andrew Longman]

I'll post my same question here that I did at TF:

Why would TG do this now when he walked away from talks months ago saying he saw no need to talk?

If he had made this offer months ago the merger might have happened in 08. Instead should this actually happen, and presumably he wants it to happen or he wouldn't have made the offer, he will be incorporating/acquiring a series and events that will be diminished by an sub-par 08 season.

[rabbit]

http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k127/Caradoc_2006/WoW/potsandprocscopy.jpg

[OW]

At this time the "M" word is not only important it is now an opportunity.

The only thing is.....(and I was sorry to hear the offers of chassis/engine leases) IS...........

Let technology flow....
Let the P1 come over too......

Stop the club racing...
Go back to Openwheel "high tech" anything goes under the Specs...
And if the P1 is so superior....and out of spec....change the spec.....

So what if the "other" (Dallara (sp.) ) chassis is not as good

My $.02

OW

[High Sided]

http://server1.autopublish.com.au/uploaded/137/911576_34rc-boat-web.jpg

[RusH]

My response to all of that is simple:

http://www.americanlemans.com/drivers_and_teams/Images/313222007154626171.png

I prefer the Risi :thumbup:


I don`t think there is an M in this deal at all. But that`s what happens any position of strength has been lead to deteriorate as much as it has.

[OW]

I prefer the Risi :thumbup:


I don`t think there is an M in this deal at all. But that`s what happens any position of strength has been lead to deteriorate as much as it has.

I agree on the political front.... "crushing the competition"...I was speaking purely Technical..

Comes with loving Openwheel racing for 44 years..

;)

[Padre]

At this time the "M" word is not only important it is now an opportunity.

The only thing is.....(and I was sorry to hear the offers of chassis/engine leases) IS...........

Let technology flow....
Let the P1 come over too......

Stop the club racing...
Go back to Openwheel "high tech" anything goes under the Specs...
And if the P1 is so superior....and out of spec....change the spec.....

So what if the "other" (Dallara (sp.) ) chassis is not as good

My $.02

OW

I'll add my .02 to yours to double. I agree.

[Spicoli]

I'll add my .02 to yours to double. I agree.

They will kick you off CCF. Are you prepared to be stoned?


edit: to death. :D

[Methanolandbrats]

Wow, free IRL sleds complete with Honda Lumps if you want to be a field filler and get lapped by Penske and Team Mikey for an entire season. That is a hell of a deal. I wonder who is paying for that :confused:

[Padre]

They will kick you off CCF. Are you prepared to be stoned?

My feelings about mergerfornication have never been a secret over there.

:forumwarssuck: :gomer:

edit: tell me JC, what's it like being stoned? :bounce: ;) :p

[Padre]

well, maybe I should clarify my agreement...

I want the DP01 included. Bring on the crapwagons and let Darwin decide which sled to use.

[Spicoli]

My feelings about mergerfornication have never been a secret over there.

:forumwarssuck: :gomer:

edit: tell me JC, what's it like being stoned? :bounce: ;) :p

I never inhaled. I just wanted to look cool.

I pretty much agree, the last couple years of CCWS has sucked financially, but I'm not sure I trust Lord Moron Tony of the Gomerati to lead us out of the darkness. He definitely smells blood in the water and once he saw what the TV contract looked like for CC, well, I can see why he's finally making an offer.

We could sit here all day (and some of us do) and try to sort out what you keep and what you throw out and who should be in charge of what, where and when. But in the end, I really feel CC is on the ropes and at an all time low. The sales team(s) have not been able to produce squat, and without the Billionaire Benefactor Club, it just would not be alive today. They had their chance, and they didn't get it done. If the existing CC teams don't like it, they don't go EARLing. Whatever.

Will be interesting to see how much of this report is true, and how much spin we will see from team owners/principals over the next week or so.

I'm about willing to give anything a try at this point, and so should everyone else. What we have - on BOTH sides - just isn;t working.

[dando]

Just get it over, damnit. :irked:

Oh, and do we mergerize forumz if this actually happenz? :gomer:

10% chance of this happening (like the Pats covering a spread the past 2 mos. of the season). :irked:

EDIT: NO Cleveburg mentioned?!?? Now I know this is a farce. :laugh:

-Kevin

[pchall]

It's nearing the end of January. Funny that Tony George should make an offer with the wrong currency yet again. Then again, I'm inclined to believe that Miller is just blowing smoke hoping somebody will take it to be the fires of mergification. He is looking at another dismal May, afterall. And the 500 is all he cares about.

[OW]

They will kick you off CCF. Are you prepared to be stoned?


edit: to death. :D


As people at CCF say (and too much) ...."wgaf"...

To CCF itself...."wgaf"...about them...

They don't even allow civil debate

(sorry nrc)

And....Oh Yes I've been banned on my first post.....(me who lives for the true Openwheel "Genre - if you will")

Maybe the (reforming of CC will get rid of CCF) and Offcamber will win too as a place to Really Discuss ANY aspect of OpenWheel...

I pray for the day that we talk about AOWR .........ABOUT RACING!!!!!

And ya know?.........
I can SEE IT!!!!!

Thanks,
OW

[Sean Malone]

I think the '08 TV package is what it is because they (they being CCWS) know that there won't be an '09.

It's surprising that RM is saying that it is Tony who made the overtures, although others in the article mention ongoing talks.

Tony hates it when the media blows his recent merge talks. I wonder if this is another one of those times he'll come out tomorrow and deny it ever happened.

I'd bet money on it.

Oh, and I don't care what the cheerleaders at CCF think, 1 series. Period. I just hope KK and GF can figure out a way to save a little face for the memory of Champ Car and it will be a shame to lose the DP01, and the turbos.

[Boatdesigner]

How about he buys DP01's for all the IRL teams and CCWS provides the engineering to fit the old Honda turbo engine in the chassis? Even then I won't care as long as FTG is running the show. By watching the IRL you are propping up and enabling the idiot and his "vision". I just have better things to do with my time, like griping about racing on an internet forum!

[Gnam]

"Free cars. Free engines"

Sounds like a threat to me. FTG should be arrested for brandishing a dangerous weapon.

If Champ Car drivers are going to return to ovals populated by IRL drivers, they deserve the maximum level of protection available. That's the DP-01. They can slow it down, but they can't make it fly.

If the merger goes down, does CCF become Crapwagon again? ;)

[Sean Malone]

I'd rather watch 1 series with Newman/Haas, Forsythe, Penske etc with LB, RA, OZ and Indy (maybe bumping would be back?) than worry about Tony George being the lone controller. I made it through Jargon Joe and Bobby Rahal leading Champ Car. At least Tony doesn't talk much.

Bring it on. Announce it, make it official for '09. Get the media on it so that it's plastered everywhere. Get the sponsors excited and lets go racing.

"drop the flag" -bird.

[pchall]

Bring it on. Announce it, make it official for '09. Get the media on it so that it's plastered everywhere. Get the sponsors excited and lets go racing.


I don't think you can reanimate the corpse of Indy with just the ghost of Champ Car.

[DagoFast]

I'd rather watch 1 series with Newman/Haas, Forsythe, Penske etc with LB, RA, OZ and Indy (maybe bumping would be back?) than worry about Tony George being the lone controller. I made it through Jargon Joe and Bobby Rahal leading Champ Car. At least Tony doesn't talk much.

Bring it on. Announce it, make it official for '09. Get the media on it so that it's plastered everywhere. Get the sponsors excited and lets go racing.

"drop the flag" -bird.

This group of miscreants couldn't get along with each other when sponsor and manufacturer money was rolling in and they were on top of the world. And they wanted nothing to do with Hulman/George control then.

I can't imagine them all living together in the poor house under Hulman/George contol is going to be a happy, satisfactory or enduring solution.

[Sean Malone]

I don't think you can reanimate the corpse of Indy with just the ghost of Champ Car.

Depends on your criteria of 'reanimate'. Back to '95 in '09? Probably not, but a merger announcment would generate more press for open wheel racing than has been seen since Mansell came over.

[Sean Malone]

This group of miscreants couldn't get along with each other when sponsor and manufacturer money was rolling in and they were on top of the world. And they wanted nothing to do with Hulman/George control then.

I can't imagine them all living together in the poor house under Hulman/George contol is going to be a happy, satisfactory or enduring solution.

CART comparisons with a merger? :confused:

Times change when there's no money.

[Padre]

Depends on your criteria of 'reanimate'. Back to '95 in '09? Probably not, but a merger announcment would generate more press for open wheel racing than has been seen since Mansell came over.

Yup. Strange enough it would be BIG news and generate more column space. American OW is a tough old bird, emaciated and poxy though she be.

[Methanolandbrats]

Yawn, WGAF. So there will be over 25 POS cars droning around instead of 17. I guess if one likes ugly cars that sound horrible and a paddock chock full of *******s, this would be fantastic news.

[miatanut]

well, maybe I should clarify my agreement...

I want the DP01 included. Bring on the crapwagons and let Darwin decide which sled to use.

The pox on both their houses!

I want REAL racing. Haven't seen that since the late '90's.

[Padre]

yeah, late '90s when you had multiple chassis' and engine combo's vying for supremacy. Great racing, unsustainable environment.

Of course, current environment is not so sustaining as well... :irked:

[jonovision_man]

Free cars. Free engines. Long Beach, Toronto, Edmonton, Mexico City and Australia added to the Indy Racing League’s schedule. A unified open-wheel series for 2008.

TAKE IT.


“It hasn’t happened yet but we’ve certainly considered going,” said Haas, who along with Paul Newman and Mike Lanigan own Champ Car’s most visible and successful operation. “It may not happen this year, but it’s highly probable we’ll do it in 2009 because there needs to be one series.”

DO IT. Go. Now.


“I think Kevin and Gerry want an equity position in the deal,” said Vasser. “Maybe that’s the hangup.”


Translation: KK and GF want their egos stroked. CCWS has been poorly run since the bankruptcy, I won't miss them having control.

jono

[Sean Malone]

TAKE IT.



DO IT. Go. Now.



Translation: KK and GF want their egos stroked. CCWS has been poorly run since the bankruptcy, I won't miss them having control.

jono


I don't know if it's more KK and GF haveing their ego stroked rather than just having a bit of dignity for a once great series. When your favorite Uncle Tommy passes after years of alcoholism and four wives and no money for his kids...you still put a suit on the man at the wake.

[rabbit]

From the beginning, I've been opposed to any "merger" that would give any power to TG. Funny thing is, as I read Miller's article, a small ("tiny" might be a better word) smile started to creep across my face. This was the first tidbit of news I've heard in a long time that got me just the littlest bit interested in the season. I'm not exactly turning cartwheels. But it's something.

It's like in the movies when the man gives up hope and walks away from the woman he loves, only to hear her say, "Wait" just as he is about to close the door behind him. There is a lot of baggage to be sorted out. But it's a start.

Of course, if TG pulls the football away again, well, since the split I've wondered what it would take to get me to completely walk away from the sport. And I think that would do it. This is the last chance that TPTB have to keep me as a fan. That's not an ultimatum. That's just the way it is.

[Sean Malone]

they need to do this the right way. Do it behind closed doors, hammer out the detials without Miller scooping their PR guys.

They need to do this before KK's hobby doesn't have anymore teams and Long Beach loses all value. Or before the teams in KK's hobby just say f'it and go to the IRL anyway.

I agree with rabbit, but the thing that caught my attention is that Miller claims this is came from Tony. That's the first time I recall reading that he initiated a merger talk.

He smells blood and is making a play. This probably isn't in the interest of the sport, but rather Tony getting LB, RA etc for cheap.

If they did it right, behind closed doors, made a big announcment and the result would be a reborn open wheel series (maybe even with a title sponsor), I'll get in line. Hell, I've been waiting 13 years hanging around message boards posting crap about dead chickens waiting for the merger announcement. Champ Car probably won't answer the bell in '09 anyway and IndyCar (they need to drop the IRL name) could use the CC races.

[High Sided]

I've been waiting 13 years hanging around message boards posting crap about dead chickens waiting for the merger announcement.

:rofl:

and bacon

[nrc]

Translation: KK and GF want their egos stroked. CCWS has been poorly run since the bankruptcy, I won't miss them having control.

As opposed to the IRL which has been run poorly since it's inception and Tony George who destroyed the sport because he wanted his ego stroked. Tony George who is on the exact same path barely three years behind in spite of having the former number one motorsports event in the world, a NASCAR event, an a major manufacturer propping the whole thing up.

Every idea that Tony George has come up with on his own has been a disaster in spite of his greater resources. His series would be an even bigger joke if he weren't now copying the exact same strategy that he claimed justified the creation of his series in the first place. He hasn't had one original idea that benefitted the sport ever.

Tony George isn't fit to run a Kool Aide stand. If Champ car isn't viable and Tony George isn't willing to cede some control then Forsythe and Kalkoven should put their full effort into bringing GP2 or A1GP to the events they control.

[nrc]

I agree with rabbit, but the thing that caught my attention is that Miller claims this is came from Tony. That's the first time I recall reading that he initiated a merger talk.

He smells blood and is making a play. This probably isn't in the interest of the sport, but rather Tony getting LB, RA etc for cheap.BS. If Tony smelled CCWS blood in the water he'd sit and do his "I'm a patient man." bit and wait for it to go under. George is worried about his own problems. He has no prospects for a competitive formula to keep Honda happy and if it gets to the end of 2008 with no resolution it's likely that Honda won't be back after 2009.

No, that doesn't mean that the IRL goes under in 2010 that means he's just three years behind CCWS in the check writing department. How much will it cost him to run an Indy 500 in 2010 without Honda bankrollying multiple superteams?

[nissan gtp]

Merge it all and then try to fix it.

[FCYTravis]

CCWS has been poorly run since the bankruptcy.
Only since the bankruptcy? I think it was poorly run for a decade or so before that.

[datachicane]

Where did anyone read anything about a merger, or Tony ponying $ up for the series? The way I read it, it's just more Tonybux waved for teams to jump ship, and who really doubts that's been going on at some level since '96?

In fact, Team Australia oughta be at the top of Anton's shopping list, second only to NHL, but former IRL team owner Walker sez he hasn't heard peep out of the Sagamore. That alone should make it clear that the whole 'offer' is nothing more than Fred Nation earning his paycheck.

[Indy]

Notice the teams quoted. NHL. PKV. Walker. Stoddart.

It's the anti-Forsythe faction.

[chop456]

As opposed to the IRL which has been run poorly since it's inception and Tony George who destroyed the sport because he wanted his ego stroked. Tony George who is on the exact same path barely three years behind in spite of having the former number one motorsports event in the world, a NASCAR event, an a major manufacturer propping the whole thing up.

Every idea that Tony George has come up with on his own has been a disaster in spite of his greater resources. His series would be an even bigger joke if he weren't now copying the exact same strategy that he claimed justified the creation of his series in the first place. He hasn't had one original idea that benefitted the sport ever.

Tony George isn't fit to run a Kool Aide stand. If Champ car isn't viable and Tony George isn't willing to cede some control then Forsythe and Kalkoven should put their full effort into bringing GP2 or A1GP to the events they control.


Don't think you'll find a better synopsis than that anywhere. :thumbup:

[jonovision_man]

As opposed to the IRL which has been run poorly since it's inception and Tony George who destroyed the sport because he wanted his ego stroked. Tony George who is on the exact same path barely three years behind in spite of having the former number one motorsports event in the world, a NASCAR event, an a major manufacturer propping the whole thing up.

Every idea that Tony George has come up with on his own has been a disaster in spite of his greater resources. His series would be an even bigger joke if he weren't now copying the exact same strategy that he claimed justified the creation of his series in the first place. He hasn't had one original idea that benefitted the sport ever.

Tony George isn't fit to run a Kool Aide stand. If Champ car isn't viable and Tony George isn't willing to cede some control then Forsythe and Kalkoven should put their full effort into bringing GP2 or A1GP to the events they control.

I don't like him either, I think splitting the sport has been catastrophic for US OW. I didn't say TG didn't have an ego, obviously he does, it's what started this in the first place.

But he won. CART thought they were bigger than the 500, "the real cars the real stars", but they were wrong. CART failed without the big race, CCWS is in the process of failing without the big race. It would have taken some talented management to turn this thing around without the 500, and they didn't get it done.

I watch the IRL, not quite as closely as ChampCar or F1, but I watch enough of it. It's not perfect, the product needs some work (especially the road/street package), but I would rather our ChampCar guys get over there and have some influence on it and try to make it work as one big series. I honestly believe the alternative is for CCWS to run out of gas entirely and close its doors, and that's not an option to me. I would rather see the IRL sleds dodging through the streets of Toronto than have it fall silent in July.


“It hasn’t happened yet but we’ve certainly considered going,” said Haas, who along with Paul Newman and Mike Lanigan own Champ Car’s most visible and successful operation. “It may not happen this year, but it’s highly probable we’ll do it in 2009 because there needs to be one series.”


“We’ve got to find a way to make a deal with Tony George,” said Jimmy Vasser


“I was never consulted on anything that had to do with the Speedway but anything we can do to get this thing together is a no-brainer,” said Walker, who is trying to find funding to run a second car for Team Australia. “We’re all strapped for cash on both sides, and if there’s a package that can help you keep going, you’ve got to do it.”


“Both series still depend on support from the owners because nobody has any sponsorship to speak of, and that’s why I’m back looking for drivers with funding,” said Wiggins, whose team won twice last year with rookie Robert Doornbos. “I know Paul (Stoddart) feels like the two should unite and he’s concerned about the whole thing.”



“Champ Car has a bit of a crisis, no doubt, but Kevin and Gerry are still motivated and I have faith in them,” said Bachelart.

“It’s too late to do anything for 2008 but Tony’s plan is a good idea for 2009.”

Last one out, turn off the lights.

jono

[KLang]

It's nearing the end of January. Funny that Tony George should make an offer with the wrong currency yet again. Then again, I'm inclined to believe that Miller is just blowing smoke hoping somebody will take it to be the fires of mergification. He is looking at another dismal May, afterall. And the 500 is all he cares about.

What he said. :thumbup:

Miller is starting the May whine early.

[cart7]

IMO, these guys were pretty good at the nuts and bolts of building the infrastructure for a successful series.... Cosworth, PI, the Atlantics series, etc. but they are clueless taking it any further than that. They've managed to alienate a goodly portion of the former fanbase and have failed to build one in the process. Revolving door drivers and venues tends to have that effect.

Now we can see if guys like Doooooornbus and Jani can mash the pedal to the floor and steer left for 2 hours without crashing. :tony:

[mueber]

Merge it all and then try to fix it.

The whole freakin’ sport, in all its forms, is suffering from too many series, filled with too many back markers pretending to be in the big leagues while two or three teams divide the spoils between them.

Champ Car sucks; merge them; it’s time to put the well-being of the sport first. Let Boy George run it. He’s guaranteed to be just as backward looking as Grampa, and A. J., and Robin Miller, and Roger Penske, and all the media in Indiana, and, etc., etc., etc. The sport will languish in obscurity, and while the negligent are genuflecting in front of that sacred yard of bricks, pray that the folks that start CART II are smart, forward-looking, and generous enough to make a go of it.

Really, what have we got to lose?

[extramundane]

CART failed without the big race, CCWS is in the process of failing without the big race.

I disagree. CART had every opportunity to make a successful path without Indy, and was doing pretty well for itself. The idiots in charge, however, made bad decision upon bad decision. The line in recent years was that if a Chris Pook had been running things since '96 or so, the split would have already ended; I'm not sure I believe that exactly, but I think things would have been much more in CART's favor (and there would still be a CART).

As for CCWS, not running at Indy was by far not their biggest problem. They didn't need Indy to survive. To become a major motorsports player again, sure, but not to survive. With proper leadership, CCWS could be a quite viable property. Maybe viable on the same level that Koni Challenge is viable, but then they've got more paid drivers per race than CCWS does.

[Methanolandbrats]

Really, what have we got to lose?
Motor, chassis and natural terrain road courses.

[Methanolandbrats]

I would rather see the IRL sleds dodging through the streets of Toronto than have it fall silent in July


Have a good time. Take the best earplugs money can buy. The only good part of that race would be when they shut those pigs off and silence returns.

[Indy]

Motor, chassis and natural terrain road courses.

Spec (who cares), spec (who cares), agreed (but I miss ovals, too).

[Sean Malone]

Micheal Andretti just better keep his mouth shut. :)

[mueber]

Motor, chassis and natural terrain road courses.

Only for as long as Tony George runs it. The merger is only the next step in the process.

[DagoFast]

CART comparisons with a merger? :confused:

Times change when there's no money.

I'll try to be more clear. I'm looking at this strictly as a fan and while I agree with you that indeed times change when theres no money, human nature or more specifically the boneheads "running" AOW certainly haven't.

Their different philosophies, their egos and their greed are still there. Just because economics may force them to live under one roof, it won't change any of that. In my opinion it won't be a happy let alone successful arrangement. Because any lasting solution has to be based on a sharing of core values not on the desire to stem red ink.

Without a true meeting of the hearts and minds of these spoiled billionaires this sport is still headed to hell in a hand basket. Even if they announced a merger today, all it would do is slow the decent for a little while longer.

YMMV.

[Methanolandbrats]

Only for as long as Tony George runs it.

If he gains control he will run it until he dies. Maybe I should rephrase that, he will run it into the ground until he dies. Might as well just shut it down now.

[Andrew Longman]

Dago, gotta agree.

So long as, strategically speaking, IMS and the I500, takes priority over the growth of the entire series, the series will languish much as it did prior to CART. And so long as TG is in charge that's the way it will be.

In fact, except that there are more media outlets to the sport today, OW is even more challenged now because to most Americans racing = NASCAR, not Indycar.

And Indy, while popular, nationally is seen as a once-a-year event/curiousity more important to locals than the general public. Sort of like Mardi Gras in NO. Crap, I'll even bet many more people in Indy care about whether the Colts make the playoffs than who wins Indy.

[mueber]

I'll try to be more clear. I'm looking at this strictly as a fan and while I agree with you that indeed times change when theres no money, human nature or more specifically the boneheads "running" AOW certainly haven't.

Their different philosophies, their egos and their greed are still there. Just because economics may force them to live under one roof, it won't change any of that. In my opinion it won't be a happy let alone successful arrangement. Because any lasting solution has to be based on a sharing of core values not on the desire to stem red ink.

Without a true meeting of the hearts and minds of these spoiled billionaires this sport is still headed to hell in a hand basket. Even if they announced a merger today, all it would do is slow the decent for a little while longer.

YMMV.


Perfect!

[jonovision_man]

I disagree. CART had every opportunity to make a successful path without Indy, and was doing pretty well for itself. The idiots in charge, however, made bad decision upon bad decision. The line in recent years was that if a Chris Pook had been running things since '96 or so, the split would have already ended; I'm not sure I believe that exactly, but I think things would have been much more in CART's favor (and there would still be a CART).

As for CCWS, not running at Indy was by far not their biggest problem. They didn't need Indy to survive. To become a major motorsports player again, sure, but not to survive. With proper leadership, CCWS could be a quite viable property. Maybe viable on the same level that Koni Challenge is viable, but then they've got more paid drivers per race than CCWS does.


It would have taken some talented management to turn this thing around without the 500, and they didn't get it done.

So I think I said that...

You can be very talent-less and have a series with the Indy 500. It's been proven. But you have to be pretty special to survive in US OW without it, and beat the series that has it.

jono

[STD]

The sport will languish in obscurity, and while the negligent are genuflecting in front of that sacred yard of bricks, pray that the folks that start CART II are smart, forward-looking, and generous enough to make a go of it.

Really, what have we got to lose?

As far as I'm concerned we now have two worthless bodies hanging by a thread that couldn't run a successful tractor pull in the middle of gomer central apart or together. The only question I have is which currently plays the roll of USAC or the SCCA of the early to mid 70's. They tried merging as well, it wasn't long lived or pretty.
Both CART and IMSA came out of that combined dysfunctional background.
Some will say it can't be done today, some said it couldn't be done back then.

Nobody won and frankly there is nothing left to lose. It's time to let go of the entire current cluster.

[Andrew Longman]

CART surely could survive, even thrive without the 500. NHRA, ALMS, GA, NASCAR, F1 all do fine without Indy. Non-Indy events on the CART schedule for the most part did fine for several years after the split.

What killed them was threefold:

Failed to establish their own path and identity going forward. They needed to maintain their position as the fastest cars on the planet running the most diverse schedule. Stick to that path and fans, media etc. would not stop asking why these cars are not racing at Indy.

Screwed up their oval product. By not addressing the engine formula, speeds got out of hand on ovals and the aero solution on short and big ovals destroyed the racing and the fans walked.

Set on a business model that relied on massive manufacturer subsidies. When the above two failures started to affect attendance, the manufacturers left and so did their teams.

[Sean Malone]

Dago, gotta agree.

So long as, strategically speaking, IMS and the I500, takes priority over the growth of the entire series, the series will languish much as it did prior to CART. And so long as TG is in charge that's the way it will be.

In fact, except that there are more media outlets to the sport today, OW is even more challenged now because to most Americans racing = NASCAR, not Indycar.

And Indy, while popular, nationally is seen as a once-a-year event/curiousity more important to locals than the general public. Sort of like Mardi Gras in NO. Crap, I'll even bet many more people in Indy care about whether the Colts make the playoffs than who wins Indy.

But is it really about being #1 or even being pre-'split healthy? With 1 series and some dedicated sponsors and a dedicated TV partner IndyCar could trudge along as a viable racing entity. The casuals would tune in to Indy and the die-hards would camp at RA and 'IndyCar' racing would have an established fanbase without the question marks about it's survivability.
NASCAR already won. IndyCar needs to get back to getting it's diehard fans back to the track, not trying to get casual TV viewers.
is tony up to the task? Probably not. But with some smarter people helping him they might be able to eliminate the question marks.

[patski]

Bolona!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

[Andrew Longman]

Agree the question marks hurt all around. Sponsors, promoters, teams, drivers, advertisers, fans, broadcasters all hold the sport at arms length so long as they are unsure about the future.

And its hard to get excited and feel good about a sport when everyone else says it is diminished.

Still, even operating as a single series they are so far from covering the costs of running a team. There has to be some real talent applied to controlling costs and creating more sponsor value and we haven't seen that in a long time

[Sean Malone]

Agree the question marks hurt all around. Sponsors, promoters, teams, drivers, advertisers, fans, broadcasters all hold the sport at arms length so long as they are unsure about the future.

And its hard to get excited and feel good about a sport when everyone else says it is diminished.

Still, even operating as a single series they are so far from covering the costs of running a team. There has to be some real talent applied to controlling costs and creating more sponsor value and we haven't seen that in a long time

But, but, Wilke sez Coke a Cola is the new title sponsor. Won't that fixer all?:tony:

[Methanolandbrats]

A plague of Gomerism has overcome this board. "There needs to be one series and it has to contain Indy", "put it together for the sport".......I am paraphrasing, but you "merger" types do realise FTG has HAD Indy for the last 11 years and both Indy attendance and the IRL have gotten worse. That tells you right there how important Indy is and it highlights FTG's management skills. Mixing in a few more teams will not save "Indy" racing. Sponsors will not flock back. Manufacturers will not commit to it. The reason it won't help is that the mystique of Indy is dead and it has become just another sporting event. There are no old timers, no creative engineering, no manufacturer competition, no garage built specials, no foreign stars doing one-offs, no drama, no bumping.......it's all gone, totally destroyed. A century long legacy ruined in a few years. There is nothing left but a meaningless, steaming pile of **** tended by a witless moron.

[Sean Malone]

A plague of Gomerism has overcome this board. "There needs to be one series and it has to contain Indy", "put it together for the sport".......I am paraphrasing, but you "merger" types do realise FTG has HAD Indy for the last 11 years and both Indy attendance and the IRL have gotten worse. That tells you right there how important Indy is and it highlights FTG's management skills. Mixing in a few more teams will not save "Indy" racing. Sponsors will not flock back. Manufacturers will not commit to it. The reason it won't help is that the mystique of Indy is dead and it has become just another sporting event. There are no old timers, no creative engineering, no manufacturer competition, no garage built specials, no foreign stars doing one-offs, no drama, no bumping.......it's all gone, totally destroyed. A century long legacy ruined in a few years. There is nothing left but a meaningless, steaming pile of **** tended by a witless moron.


Um, guess these guys are the real "merger" types.:gomer: What do you suggest? Time machine? :)


Quote:
“It hasn’t happened yet but we’ve certainly considered going,” said Haas, who along with Paul Newman and Mike Lanigan own Champ Car’s most visible and successful operation. “It may not happen this year, but it’s highly probable we’ll do it in 2009 because there needs to be one series.”

Quote:
“We’ve got to find a way to make a deal with Tony George,” said Jimmy Vasser

Quote:
“I was never consulted on anything that had to do with the Speedway but anything we can do to get this thing together is a no-brainer,” said Walker, who is trying to find funding to run a second car for Team Australia. “We’re all strapped for cash on both sides, and if there’s a package that can help you keep going, you’ve got to do it.”

Quote:
“Both series still depend on support from the owners because nobody has any sponsorship to speak of, and that’s why I’m back looking for drivers with funding,” said Wiggins, whose team won twice last year with rookie Robert Doornbos. “I know Paul (Stoddart) feels like the two should unite and he’s concerned about the whole thing.”

Quote:
“Champ Car has a bit of a crisis, no doubt, but Kevin and Gerry are still motivated and I have faith in them,” said Bachelart.

“It’s too late to do anything for 2008 but Tony’s plan is a good idea for 2009.”

[pchall]

^^ earns a llama smilie

[Methanolandbrats]

Um, guess these guys are the real "merger" types.:gomer: What do you suggest? Time machine? :)


Quote:
“It hasn’t happened yet but we’ve certainly considered going,” said Haas, who along with Paul Newman and Mike Lanigan own Champ Car’s most visible and successful operation. “It may not happen this year, but it’s highly probable we’ll do it in 2009 because there needs to be one series.”

Quote:
“We’ve got to find a way to make a deal with Tony George,” said Jimmy Vasser

Quote:
“I was never consulted on anything that had to do with the Speedway but anything we can do to get this thing together is a no-brainer,” said Walker, who is trying to find funding to run a second car for Team Australia. “We’re all strapped for cash on both sides, and if there’s a package that can help you keep going, you’ve got to do it.”

Quote:
“Both series still depend on support from the owners because nobody has any sponsorship to speak of, and that’s why I’m back looking for drivers with funding,” said Wiggins, whose team won twice last year with rookie Robert Doornbos. “I know Paul (Stoddart) feels like the two should unite and he’s concerned about the whole thing.”

Quote:
“Champ Car has a bit of a crisis, no doubt, but Kevin and Gerry are still motivated and I have faith in them,” said Bachelart.

“It’s too late to do anything for 2008 but Tony’s plan is a good idea for 2009.”


I hope they enjoy themselves.

[nrc]

Um, guess these guys are the real "merger" types.:gomer: What do you suggest? Time machine? :)

Right, add Mikey Andretti and Roger Penski to the list? So what? That makes it something that we should support?

[dando]

A plague of Gomerism has overcome this board. "There needs to be one series and it has to contain Indy", "put it together for the sport".......I am paraphrasing, but you "merger" types do realise FTG has HAD Indy for the last 11 years and both Indy attendance and the IRL have gotten worse. That tells you right there how important Indy is and it highlights FTG's management skills. Mixing in a few more teams will not save "Indy" racing. Sponsors will not flock back. Manufacturers will not commit to it. The reason it won't help is that the mystique of Indy is dead and it has become just another sporting event. There are no old timers, no creative engineering, no manufacturer competition, no garage built specials, no foreign stars doing one-offs, no drama, no bumping.......it's all gone, totally destroyed. A century long legacy ruined in a few years. There is nothing left but a meaningless, steaming pile of **** tended by a witless moron.

Just shoot Old Yeller and get it over with....I'll just watch the results in amusement, but will have no vested interest in whatever it becomes...unless they blow it all up and start over, which ain't gonna happen. C'est la vie.

-Kevin

[Methanolandbrats]

[QUOTE=Sean Malone;218592] What do you suggest?
[QUOTE]

Several bulldozers.

[STD]

^ You must not know what Indy really means. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Let it bleed, let it rot.

[G.]

CART thought they were bigger than the 500, "the real cars the real stars", but they were wrong.
jonoI got a big problem with you saying this TF bull****.

Have you ever talked to the principles in CART, back in the day?

The paddock talk was along the lines of, "We can't survive without Indy, they can't survive without CART". Pretty depressing, actually.

And THAT'S where we are now. Neither side is "surviving" without untold million$$ being pumped in.

All the "Cars and Stars" crap was just PR crap, trying to play with the hand we were dealt. CCWS is just playing (rather promising sometimes, poorly most times) the hand that they were dealt.

Now FTG has the "stars", and he's pissing it all away. The Amigos are trying to take their new cards and trying to turn away from Indy. That ain't working.

But CART never thought they were bigger than mindy (OK, maybe just a bit, early on in the split;) ), they just reacted to the loss of their conerstone event, with less-than-savvy strategery.

[Sean Malone]

Right, add Mikey Andretti and Roger Penski to the list? So what? That makes it something that we should support?

well, I've spent the last 13 years wondering the very same question. I'm not going to preach that we should all embrace a single Tony led series without seeing what the series is like first, but I've liked things and not their leaders before. I love my country but at times hated the president, enjoyed the company I worked for but hated the CEO, loved the Raiders but can't stand Al Davis.
Champ Car has fallen so far that now we have highlight shows on tape delay and most, if not all team owners saying that if it doesn't happen now...it WILL happen next year. So it's done. Now each of us need to reflect on whether we can stomach following IndyCar with a few new teams. Some will, some won't. I'm leaning towards will as I despise NASCAR, get bored by endurance races and motoGP and F1 are series I catch on TV. I've lived just a few miles from two IRL races and never could bring myself to attend either one, after a merger...sure. 13 years is enough.

[Indy]

Meth, if I paid you $100 per hour, and then reduced your pay to $50 per hour, you might say I am not going to do it for that and walk away, or you might take the $50 because it is better than nothing. But you would not have the option to not take the $50 and deny the job to anyone else. If you walk away, you walk away, but don't try to deny others their enjoyment.

I gave this some thought last night, and I think most of the fanatics on both sides will come around. A few will leave forever, which is probably for the better. Personally, they can earn my business or not, but the days of making that decision on the principle of supporting the "ethical" side of the split went away when I concluded that there was no monopoly on sleaze anywhere in this sport.

[Sean Malone]

Meth, if I paid you $100 per hour, and then reduced your pay to $50 per hour, you might say I am not going to do it for that and walk away, or you might take the $50 because it is better than nothing. But you would not have the option to not take the $50 and deny the job to anyone else. If you walk away, you walk away, but don't try to deny others their enjoyment.

I gave this some thought last night, and I think most of the fanatics on both sides will come around. A few will leave forever, which is probably for the better. Personally, they can earn my business or not, but the days of making that decision on the principle of supporting the "ethical" side of the split went away when I concluded that there was no monopoly on sleaze anywhere in this sport.

Support group: *stands up* I was a CART fan way before the split and a big fan of the Indy 500. to me CART died in '04. Champ Car is not CART. It would be nice if one series went to the 500 again.

[Indy]

Support group: *stands up* I was a CART fan way before the split and a big fan of the Indy 500. to me CART died in '04. Champ Car is not CART. It would be nice if one series went to the 500 again.

Yeah. Hard to admit that to the group, but I think I am there, too.

But until the racing improves my primary purpose to attend will be to hate on gomers. :gomer:

[Sean Malone]

Raise your hand if you are still pissed that the American Football League merged with the National Football League.

[G.]

I am so beaten down by this split.:(

But I will say, and stand firm, I will NOT watch any racing formula that can run the MILWAKEE MILE FLAT OUT!:flame:

Those POS cars MUST go.

[jonovision_man]

I got a big problem with you saying this TF bull****.

Have you ever talked to the principles in CART, back in the day?

The paddock talk was along the lines of, "We can't survive without Indy, they can't survive without CART". Pretty depressing, actually.

And THAT'S where we are now. Neither side is "surviving" without untold million$$ being pumped in.

All the "Cars and Stars" crap was just PR crap, trying to play with the hand we were dealt. CCWS is just playing (rather promising sometimes, poorly most times) the hand that they were dealt.

Now FTG has the "stars", and he's pissing it all away. The Amigos are trying to take their new cards and trying to turn away from Indy. That ain't working.

But CART never thought they were bigger than mindy (OK, maybe just a bit, early on in the split;) ), they just reacted to the loss of their conerstone event, with less-than-savvy strategery.

I'm sorry, it was not "just PR crap", CART intentionally scheduled a race opposite the Indy 500 hoping that "cars and stars" would trump decades of history. It didn't.

I hate quoting myself again, but:

It would have taken some talented management to turn this thing around without the 500, and they didn't get it done.

Maybe CART could have got it done without the 500 with better management, we'll never know. Maybe KK/GF/PG could have got it done without the 500 with better management.

But they didn't. And TG got it done with arguably worse management, and why? Because he has the Indy 500.

What's easier to believe: that TG is smarter than CART and smarter than KK/GF/PG? Or that he owes his series longevity to the Indy 500? I think it's pretty clear...

jono

[mueber]

If, as appears to be the case, the consensus within the Champ Car community is that it is over, it is over. Better to move on. None of this means that any one is going to be forced to go to Gomerville, or Mid-Ohio, or Cleveland, or Surfer's, or anywhere else and watch crapwagons. Chances are that most of the countless thousands who swore off open wheel over the last 13 years will continue to swear off open wheel.

My guess is that the demise of Champ Car is not the end, but a step alone the way, because the problems that have plagued the sport since its USAC days are still there, and no one has yet shown the insight to deal with them, including the, I thought, highly successful "businessmen" who "run" Champ Car.

[Spicoli]

Everything else has failed, and failed miserably.

On the Q of whether anyone here has actually talked to or worked with some of these owners. Yes, and 2nd hand. Let me tell you some of the HORROR stories of the old CART days in dealing with half dozen billionaires who are never told no, reps from Biggie Car Manu Cos, Track owners, promoters, sponsors, etc. No wonder the whole fuggin thing burnt down.

The 2 (arguably) most successful racing series on the planet: F1 & NASCAR are run by single closely held companys with a clear BOSS in charge. The only difference is they are smart and succesful (mostly) and TG? Well, let's just say beating up on a "bankrupt remnant series" while the majority of your "stars" and recent 500 winners bolt for NASCAR doesn't exactly make you a "winner". :gomer1:

We shall see what becomes of this, but look at the past.:shakehead

[dando]

Raise your hand if you are still pissed that the American Football League merged with the National Football League.

I'm too young to have realized that happened when it happened. Go pick on Longman and OC. ;)

-Kevin

[STD]

I see no correlation at all.
The AFL had a plan and kept feeding and building their upstart.
Both agreed to come together before any major damage was done.
Both sides had smart business people as owners, leadership.
The mass majority of an already growing fan base embraced it all.

Anyone seeing a meger between the CCWS and IRL as leading to the same success story needs to put down the shrooms for awhile and quickly. :)

[Andrew Longman]

I'm too young to have realized that happened when it happened. Go pick on Longman and OC. ;)

-Kevin

When they merged I was pissed because I was firmly an old school NFL guy (kid actually).

And I was pissed that old line Cleveland, Baltimore and Pittsburgh teams had to move to the AFL(C) and those upstart teams.

For years I rooted for the NFC team in the Super Bowl.

But I've also said that the anomosity between the OW fan/camps should be exploited should any merger happen. Hate is good for racing so long as it can be applied on the track.

So to STDs point, yes it is important to have a plan, and smart and enlightened leadership. You can't overstate the importance of people like Rozzell, Mara, Rooney, Modell, Hess, Hunt and others in making the NFL and the merger work.

[Sean Malone]

I see no correlation at all.
The AFL had a plan and kept feeding and building their upstart.
Both agreed to come together before any major damage was done.
Both sides had smart business people as owners, leadership.
The mass majority of an already growing fan base embraced it all.

Anyone seeing a meger between the CCWS and IRL as leading to the same success story needs to put down the shrooms for awhile and quickly. :)

The point was regarding attitudes after the merger (and there were, and still are, some who lean towards one conference or the other due to a pre-split loyalty). It wasn't a direct correlation. HUGE apology for not detailing every aspect of my analogy. I should have known someone would dissect the NFL's ~35 year old merger. This is the internet after all. I'll make a note of that.

[dando]

When they merged I was pissed because I was firmly an old school NFL guy (kid actually).

And I was pissed that old line Cleveland, Baltimore and Pittsburgh teams had to move to the AFL(C) and those upstart teams.

For years I rooted for the NFC team in the Super Bowl.

But I've also said that the anomosity between the OW fan/camps should be exploited should any merger happen. Hate is good for racing so long as it can be applied on the track.

So to STDs point, yes it is important to have a plan, and smart and enlightened leadership. You can't overstate the importance of people like Rozzell, Mara, Rooney, Modell, Hess, Hunt and others in making the NFL and the merger work.

I actually have more angst for the MLB realignment that ruined rilvaries like the Reds-Dodgers, which was killer in the 70s and part of the 80s. Now they've got a damn unbalanced schedule ala the NHL, so I only get to see da Bums play the Reds once or twice each year. :irked:

And yes, hate was good for racing while I was hatin' on Penske in the mid- to late-90s, and then Ganasty with Zanardi and Jeemy (it was hard to hate on Jeemy, tho). They finished 1, 2 one year @ Laguna, and while they were doing their parade lap I said, "I hope they touch wheels" and sure enough they touched going through the 'screw side by side and spun out. :gomer: Now if that would just work with FTG in a whirly bird. ;)

-Kevin

[dando]

I should have known someone would dissect the NFL's ~35 year old merger.

I think it's like 40 years this year (w/o Googling).

-Kevin

[Insomniac]

At least they are making progress on the leaks. We don't know that there was a meeting the day after. :)

In all seriousness, it's kind of sad. The kind of offer for ChampCar is down to this. If the amigos don't get the ship in the right direction, the value, and their leverage will continue to drop. It's obviously too late for 2008. When you have Newman/Haas openly saying that it looks like the IRL in 2009, that isn't very promising. Are KK and GF going to run 7 cars each (2 from Dale Coyne)?

I don't know where this is going. Common sense says one series makes the most sense for any chance since to the average person, both series must look the same, except the IRL now has the names (Average Viewer when watching Champ Car: "Where's Danica?"). Merge or set yourself apart seems like the only viable option. But how different can you be when you have a open wheel car racing in the United States mostly? Is the only thing that separates F1 from CC/IRL the international aspect (i.e. non-U.S.) to the average person?

[Sean Malone]

I think it's like 40 years this year (w/o Googling).

-Kevin

I turn 40 this March so I'm trying to make myself feel better.;)

[Chief]

Tony George has tainted everything in American open wheel.....seriously, it's going to take DOZENS of years to rebuild what one man destroyed.

Screw him, the 500, and everything else. If I never see another open wheel race again it will be fine. :thumdown:

[Racing Truth]

Help me out here: Why, logically, should Champ Car NOT have accepted this deal? B/c I can't think of any beyond FTG-hate.

The $100 million is a nice thought, and pure fantasy. Why would TG do that, for what reason?

Just get it over with.

[Racing Truth]

As opposed to the IRL which has been run poorly since it's inception and Tony George who destroyed the sport because he wanted his ego stroked. Tony George who is on the exact same path barely three years behind in spite of having the former number one motorsports event in the world, a NASCAR event, an a major manufacturer propping the whole thing up.

Every idea that Tony George has come up with on his own has been a disaster in spite of his greater resources. His series would be an even bigger joke if he weren't now copying the exact same strategy that he claimed justified the creation of his series in the first place. He hasn't had one original idea that benefitted the sport ever.

Tony George isn't fit to run a Kool Aide stand. If Champ car isn't viable and Tony George isn't willing to cede some control then Forsythe and Kalkoven should put their full effort into bringing GP2 or A1GP to the events they control.

Why? So they could finish off GP2, A1GP, AND CCWS? TG is a moron, true. NEWSFLASH: He's about to finish off CC, so why should we trust them (KK, GF) going forward?

[Sean Malone]

Help me out here: Why, logically, should Champ Car NOT have accepted this deal? B/c I can't think of any beyond FTG-hate.

The $100 million is a nice thought, and pure fantasy. Why would TG do that, for what reason?

Just get it over with.

Good questions. What is the monetary value of Champ Car? Does that offer include KK's Cosworth company? It's not the cars, or the t-shirt truck, maybe Long Beach. What is that worth?
Just good faith money and a contract from GF and KK and all the CC team owners not to start a rival series within 5 years?

[Methanolandbrats]

Tony George has tainted everything in American open wheel.....seriously, it's going to take DOZENS of years to rebuild what one man destroyed.

Screw him, the 500, and everything else. If I never see another open wheel race again it will be fine. :thumdown: Excellent post, you understand the situation unlike many who believe when TG controls everything God will pee rose water on IMS, sponsors will have bidding wars to be on the sidepods, TV coverage will be live for three weeks, tickets will be hard to get and Schumi will drive for Vision Racing.

[Sean Malone]

Excellent post, you understand the situation unlike many who believe when TG controls everything God will pee rose water on IMS, sponsors will have bidding wars to be on the sidepods, TV coverage will be live for three weeks, tickets will be hard to get and Schumi will drive for Vision Racing.

Who besides spicoli believes that?:confused:

[STD]

The point was regarding attitudes after the merger (and there were, and still are, some who lean towards one conference or the other due to a pre-split loyalty). It wasn't a direct correlation. HUGE apology for not detailing every aspect of my analogy. I should have known someone would dissect the NFL's ~35 year old merger. This is the internet after all. I'll make a note of that.

LOL

[Duroc]

Why, logically, should Champ Car NOT have accepted this deal?

Because Honda isn't serious.

Clarke's "suprise" retirement means Honda is leaving. They're just sugar coating it for Fredo with vaporware about staying if he facilitates a merger.

It ain't the way I wanted it! I can handle things! I'm smart! Not like everybody says... like dumb... I'm smart and I want respect!

That and hitching your star to an Indy 500 that is far more likely to be drawing 25K in five years than see a return to the glory days might not be such a good idea.



Merge it all and then try to fix it.

The Penn Central solution.

[DagoFast]

Good questions. What is the monetary value of Champ Car? Does that offer include KK's Cosworth company? It's not the cars, or the t-shirt truck, maybe Long Beach. What is that worth?
Just good faith money and a contract from GF and KK and all the CC team owners not to start a rival series within 5 years?

Good guesses. Since none of us, nor I assume, Robin Miller were in attendance at these meetings the 100 million dollar sum could be for any of those items or more. For all we know Gentilossi came up with that number while doing his impersonation of Dr. Evil.

Its redundant, but if Toeknee was smart (told ya ;) ) it would most certainly include Cosworth to preclude any of the Honda leverage that could and likely is being brought to bear on his leeg.

At this point I'm done following CCWS. I don't care for the product since the DP01 came on line and their management has grown laughable. I never followed the leeg, other than to lampoon it. And I'll despise :tony: FTG till they day I die for his destruction of the sport.

I only poke my nose in nowadays to see how it will all end. Because now I'm a fan of train wrecks! :D

[TravelGal]

I don't care for the product since the DP01 came on line and their management has grown laughable. I never followed the leeg, other than to lampoon it. And I'll despise :tony: FTG till they day I die for his destruction of the sport.

I only poke my nose in nowadays to see how it will all end. Because now I'm a fan of train wrecks! :D

There ya go, Dago. I was thinking today that it's like watching a train wreck. I can't seem to keep myself from checking in a coupla times a day to see what's fallen off the rails next.

And I completely agree about the DP01. It's not popular to say but I think the thing sounds like S...T. A dumbed down car for a dumbed down series. :shakehead

[pchall]

Help me out here: Why, logically, should Champ Car NOT have accepted this deal? B/c I can't think of any beyond FTG-hate.


Because of the huge liabilities involved in cancelling all the races FTG doesn't want run. If FTG wants to "buy" Champ Car with dodgy old chassis and funky Honda rebuilds he needs to make good on the rest. Another case of trying to buy with the wrong currency.

[Sean Malone]

There ya go, Dago. I was thinking today that it's like watching a train wreck. I can't seem to keep myself from checking in a coupla times a day to see what's fallen off the rails next.

And I completely agree about the DP01. It's not popular to say but I think the thing sounds like S...T. A dumbed down car for a dumbed down series. :shakehead

I think the DP01 is a great looking spec car as spec cars go.