tony sz "Times Up!"

[Spicoli]

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080128/SPORTS0107/801280351/1052/SPORTS01


The window of opportunity has closed for Champ Car World Series teams to receive Tony George's financial assistance to join the Indy Racing League for 2008, George said Sunday.


George, the IRL's chief executive officer, said that in meetings last fall with Champ Car's leadership, he offered to help its teams pay for IRL cars on the condition they participated in his series for at least two seasons. When none came forward in a timely manner, George chose to scrap his plan.
"Teams started coming to me in December and January, and there's not much I can do at that point," George said. "I needed to know earlier so we could get the cars ordered."


Then this gem:


Champ Car co-owner Kevin Kalkhoven said George never formally made an offer to either him or partner Jerry Forsythe.
"I never, ever saw an offer from Tony George," Kalkhoven said. "We never received anything in writing

Sombuddy's lying here...


"I wasn't going to wholesale make that offer," George said. "I would make sure they had equipment; it would not necessarily be free."
Forsythe could not be reached for comment. Kalkhoven insisted he hasn't spoken with George "in nine months."
George said he made it clear the IRL would be the sanctioning body in a unified series. He offered to include several of the events that Kalkhoven and Forsythe own, such as the Long Beach (Calif.) Grand Prix, in future IRL schedules.
"I tried to get all those guys to consider not having ownership in the series; rather, they should make their other racing-related businesses a more profitable part of a unified series," George said. "I told them, 'Let us own and operate the series, and we'll make sure everyone is able to transition into equipment for the remainder useful life of the equipment.' "

:irked:

[chop456]

"None of you want to participate in my tantrum? Fine, then. I'll just go have a tantrum." :cry: :tony:

[jonovision_man]

"I never, ever saw an offer from Tony George," Kalkhoven said. "We never received anything in writing

Sounds like a verbal offer was made, otherwise why would KK make the distinction?

jono

[Sean Malone]

So there you have it. Right from the the jackass's mouth. End of story, no merger but half (if not more) have said they'll be going to the IRL in '09.

Let's enjoy '08.

KK hasn't spoken with TG in 9 months. Has he spoken to anyone in 9 months?

What's KK say about the majority of his teams claiming they will be leaving for the IRL next year?

[eiregosod]

brain freeze in Indy. :tony:

[Methanolandbrats]

Sounds like a verbal offer was made, otherwise why would KK make the distinction?

jono Please PM me your phone number. I'll then offer three times the market value for your house. I promise! Of course, I can't cut the check until after I receive the signed deed.

[mueber]

And so the inevitable self-destruction of open wheel in America will continue.

[Insomniac]

Wow, that is pretty funny. The split stated because CART didn't want TG to be on the board and wanted him to remain a promoter. Now TG wants KK and GF to be promoters only in a merger. :)

[SteveH]

"I would make sure they had equipment; it would not necessarily be free."

I'll bet his phone started ringing as soon as it was reported that he would extend free chassis and Honda engines to CC teams coming over. Something like, "what about me?"

[robot9000]

I wouldn't trust the lot of 'em !!

FTG is a clueless bafoon.
KK is a bored Bazillionaire that owns auto racing stuff as a hobby.
GF is a nut case with an ego
PG thinks Paper is smart. Nuff said there,,,,
Petit is still figuring out what he "owns" and what he doesn't "Own"

Put 'em all in the helo and start over :shakehead

[Sean Malone]

So not only is tony having separate meetings with KK and GF, but also meeting individually with Champ Car team owners. Nice. Like insomniac mentioned, 1 person needs to run Champ Car.

this also caught my eye...


George said he told Kalkhoven and Forsythe in separate meetings that he would help teams acquire a new car and a used one as a backup for each full-season driver supported by a proper budget. He would not have bought the cars outright.

So the offer was for 3 drivers? ;)

[Methanolandbrats]

[quote]George said. "I told them, 'Let us own and operate the series, and we'll make sure everyone is able to transition into equipment for the remainder useful life of the equipment.' " [quote]

Anyone able to translate that into english? Did'nt think so. That quote is all you need to know about why there are no "negotiations".

[Spicoli]

[quote]George said. "I told them, 'Let us own and operate the series, and we'll make sure everyone is able to transition into equipment for the remainder useful life of the equipment.' " [quote]

Anyone able to translate that into english? Did'nt think so. That quote is all you need to know about why there are no "negotiations".

Im not sure anybody can understand what the intent is when ___king Tony talks. Mumbling bumbling fool.:shakehead

[Andrew Longman]

Again he didn't bring the right currency. What a maroon.

One chassis and a back up (not free, but presumably leased or loaned) for every driver supported with a budget?

They have chassis now. What they need are drivers supported by a budget. Going to the lame ass IRL schedule and puny ratings isn't going to fix that. Yes it is somewhat better, but still not good enough.

If he wants a merger all he needs to do is get his marketing genius Demon to knock on every door on Madison Ave. and bring home some sponsorship to dole out to teams. Oh wait, Demon hasn't even found sponsorship for his boss. Forget that. :rolleyes:

Given too that these conversations happened in November and TG himself said that teams coming to him in December and January was too late to pull it off means he expected an immediate answer to a verbal offer. Sorry, but that's not how business is done. Sounds all too like his half assed presentation in Houston and is tantrum over not getting an immediate answer.

I wonder too if any conversations happened with Disney on who would get revenue (if any) for the broadcast rights to LB and TO if they became IRL races in 08. Hmmm, probably forgot about that.

[Insomniac]

George said. "I told them, 'Let us own and operate the series, and we'll make sure everyone is able to transition into equipment for the remainder useful life of the equipment.' "

Anyone able to translate that into english? Did'nt think so. That quote is all you need to know about why there are no "negotiations".

I can. We will continue to run the IRL (we does not include anyone from CC) and we'll make sure you guys have cars, engines and tires.

[Sean Malone]

Again he didn't bring the right currency. What a maroon.

One chassis and a back up (not free, but presumably leased or loaned) for every driver supported with a budget?

They have chassis now. What they need are drivers supported by a budget. Going to the lame ass IRL schedule and puny ratings isn't going to fix that. Yes it is somewhat better, but still not good enough.

If he wants a merger all he needs to do is get his marketing genius Demon to knock on every door on Madison Ave. and bring home some sponsorship to dole out to teams. Oh wait, Demon hasn't even found sponsorship for his boss. Forget that. :rolleyes:

Given too that these conversations happened in November and TG himself said that teams coming to him in December and January was too late to pull it off means he expected an immediate answer to a verbal offer. Sorry, but that's not how business is done. Sounds all too like his half assed presentation in Houston and is tantrum over not getting an immediate answer.

I wonder too if any conversations happened with Disney on who would get revenue (if any) for the broadcast rights to LB and TO if they became IRL races in 08. Hmmm, probably forgot about that.

Yep, he wants to be painted as the one who extended the olive branch, when there was no branch in his hand. Smoke and mirrors.

[JLMannin]

Sounds like a verbal offer was made, otherwise why would KK make the distinction?

jono

And a verbal offer is only worth the paper it is written on.

[JLMannin]

[quote]George said. "I told them, 'Let us own and operate the series, and we'll make sure everyone is able to transition into equipment for the remainder useful life of the equipment.' " [quote]

Anyone able to translate that into english? Did'nt think so. That quote is all you need to know about why there are no "negotiations".

The current IRL Formula is in effect through 2009; therefore, the useful life of the equipment is two seasons. At least I think that is the case.

[stroker]

So let's summarize. The supposed "no-brainer" offer never in fact really existed. The Dope was floating trial balloons trying to get a few converts on the cheap, which is his normal motus operendi. No serious offer, no serious negotiation, no serious proposal.

And he expects everyone to believe that he would be INCAPABLE of acquiring more cars and engines if teams wanted to run just because he says so.

People around here want CC to succumb just so they can have one series, run by Tony George? Jeebus Effing Christ...

:saywhat:

[Methanolandbrats]

So let's summarize. The supposed "no-brainer" offer never in fact really existed. The Dope was floating trial balloons trying to get a few converts on the cheap, which is his normal motus operendi. No serious offer, no serious negotiation, no serious proposal.

And he expects everyone to believe that he would be INCAPABLE of acquiring more cars and engines if teams wanted to run just because he says so.

People around here want CC to succumb just so they can have one series, run by Tony George? Jeebus Effing Christ...

:saywhat: Exactly.

[dando]

Now TG wants KK and GF to be promoters only in a merger. :)

Racing-related businesses == race promoters and race teams. :) Not sure if that would include Cozzie. :irked:

-Kevin

[Andrew Longman]

Racing-related businesses == race promoters and race teams. :) Not sure if that would include Cozzie. :irked:

-Kevin

Right, more wrong currency. If he had said the IRL will accept the DP01 and Cosworth lumps as an alternative (probably cheaper) for existing and new IRL teams and offered to take on TO and LB (and maybe some other events), then he has a conversation starter. Might have required talk about spec ECUs, equivilancies with Honda, non-turbos, but that's technical issues, not negotiation points.

Instead he take an on-the-cheap, winner-take-all negotiating position and is dumbfounded when people don't cave it.

[KLang]

What stroker said. :thumbup:

It appears all FTG is really up to is attempting to lure a few teams to switch to the dark side. Earl expecting car count problems this year? :laugh:

[Methanolandbrats]

Right, more wrong currency. If he had said the IRL will accept the DP01 and Cosworth lumps as an alternative (probably cheaper) for existing and new IRL teams and offered to take on TO and LB (and maybe some other events), then he has a conversation starter. Might have required talk about spec ECUs, equivilancies with Honda, non-turbos, but that's technical issues, not negotiation points.

Instead he take an on-the-cheap, winner-take-all negotiating position and is dumbfounded when people don't cave it. Even if he gained total control he would'nt have the slightest idea what to do or how to do it, that is the real issue and has been demonstrated by the last decade of running the Indy 500 into the ground. Think about it. How can you inherit something like that and **** it up? It boggles the mind that it was even done.

[dando]

Right, more wrong currency. If he had said the IRL will accept the DP01 and Cosworth lumps as an alternative (probably cheaper) for existing and new IRL teams and offered to take on TO and LB (and maybe some other events), then he has a conversation starter. Might have required talk about spec ECUs, equivilancies with Honda, non-turbos, but that's technical issues, not negotiation points.

Instead he take an on-the-cheap, winner-take-all negotiating position and is dumbfounded when people don't cave it.

True. Should we expect anything less from the idiot inheritor? :irked: The reason there was never anything in writing is he prolly forgot what he said in a moment of lucid thought, and just now found his notes. :tony:


Thanks, Tony. I needed a refill of the hate tank. :flame:

-Kevin

[eiregosod]

What stroker said. :thumbup:

It appears all FTG is really up to is attempting to lure a few teams to switch to the dark side. Earl expecting car count problems this year? :laugh:

I agree, and I think that :tony: was trying to get his name in the paper during the offseason.

those big sponsorship deals with the IRL mustn't have come about

[Sean Malone]

So let's summarize. The supposed "no-brainer" offer never in fact really existed. The Dope was floating trial balloons trying to get a few converts on the cheap, which is his normal motus operendi. No serious offer, no serious negotiation, no serious proposal.

And he expects everyone to believe that he would be INCAPABLE of acquiring more cars and engines if teams wanted to run just because he says so.

People around here want CC to succumb just so they can have one series, run by Tony George? Jeebus Effing Christ...

:saywhat:

:rofl: There will be one series run by Tony George next year, whether "people around here" want it or not.

[mueber]

:rofl: There will be one series run by Tony George next year, whether "people around here" want it or not.

Come April of 2009, there will be one series, and it will be run by Tony George. I thought men who succeeded in business on their own terms would be successful in developing Champ Car. I was wrong, and I have no idea who could be successful in making open wheel successful in the current environment. It’s safe to say it isn’t Tony George, and it isn’t Kalkhoven and Forsythe.

Giving it to Boy George to completely destroy is the best option because I can’t stand it the way it is. It clears the deck of all the current pretenders and villains, and God knows we have a lot of both, and opens the way for someone to start from scratch. I’d rather go to the Canadian Grand Prix every other year and the occasional ALMS race than go through another season of one open wheel series run by Tony, it's all about me, George and another one hanging on by its fingernails.

[Sean Malone]

Come April of 2009, there will be one series, and it will be run by Tony George. I thought men who succeeded in business on their own terms would be successful in developing Champ Car. I was wrong, and I have no idea who could be successful in making open wheel successful in the current environment. It’s safe to say it isn’t Tony George, and it isn’t Kalkhoven and Forsythe.

I think giving it to Boy George to completely destroy is the best option because I can’t stand it the way it is. It clears the deck of all the current pretenders and villains, and God knows we have a lot of both, and opens the way for someone to start from scratch.

As it is, I’m to the point that I’d rather go to the Canadian Grand Prix every other year and the occasional ALMS race than go through another season of one open wheel series run by Tony, it's all about me, George and another one hanging on by its fingernails.

I’m guilty of reading Millers ‘merger’ article and mistakenly giving TG the benefit of the doubt that this was a legit olive branch. I believed that TG sees that things have gotten so bad for both sides that it was time for everyone to come together and concessions would be made by both sides. But of course, it’s just more of the same from Tony.
The truly sad part is that Tony will ‘win’ in the end, but the sport as a whole will die under his visions. Through my rose colored mergification glasses I thought I would enthusiastically embrace whatever the merged series looks like in ’09, after knowing the truth I’ll never follow Tony’s series. He, along with many of the YEN chasing traitors from the old CART ruined American open wheel racing.
Hopefully KK’s hobby will continue to be a thorn in Tony’s side for a few more years, but if there aren’t any teams left after this year, there’s not much he can do. Tony wins by default…and we all lose.

[Don Quixote]

I wonder what Honda thinks about all this? Were they telling TG that he merges by the beginning of 09 or all bets are off? The IRL deathspiral will steepen beyond what it already is without those yen. :laugh:

[jonovision_man]

And a verbal offer is only worth the paper it is written on.

But you at least get back to the guy and say "hey you know what we talked about in that meeting? I'm interested, let's get something in writing".

jono

[stroker]

But you at least get back to the guy and say "hey you know what we talked about in that meeting? I'm interested, let's get something in writing".

jono

Not if what he said wasn't serious enough to respond to, you don't.

[Andrew Longman]

Not if what he said wasn't serious enough to respond to, you don't.

And not when you are negotiating. You need a clear offer to accept, reject, or counter. Otherwise you are negotiating with yourself. Basic business.

[Methanolandbrats]

But you at least get back to the guy and say "hey you know what we talked about in that meeting? I'm interested, let's get something in writing".

jono OK, I've had experience dealing with a person exactly like FTG. He called a meeting where we were going to "brainstorm" some new bylaws. When the meeting started he read his proposal and we were supposed to vote on it. Clearly he wanted no input from anyone and we protested. He got pissed and walked out. He called another meeting and when we got there, he refused to come. A third meeting was called, but he only invited people who agreed with him and they walked out. Now I get an email saying "everyone must attend because our meetings are poorly attended". WTF, it was poorly attended because he did'nt invite people. Do you get the picture, he's a megalomanic who wants to run everything but does'nt have the talent to run anything. You can't reason or negotiate with someone like that. All I'm involved in is merging two youth soccer associations, can you imagine if hundreds of millions of dollars were at stake?

[jonovision_man]

OK, I've had experience dealing with a person exactly like FTG. He called a meeting where we were going to "brainstorm" some new bylaws. When the meeting started he read his proposal and we were supposed to vote on it. Clearly he wanted no input from anyone and we protested. He got pissed and walked out. He called another meeting and when we got there, he refused to come. A third meeting was called, but he only invited people who agreed with him and they walked out. Now I get an email saying "everyone must attend because our meetings are poorly attended". WTF, it was poorly attended because he did'nt invite people. Do you get the picture, he's a megalomanic who wants to run everything but does'nt have the talent to run anything. You can't reason or negotiate with someone like that. All I'm involved in is merging two youth soccer associations, can you imagine if hundreds of millions of dollars were at stake?

Read RM's article... specifically the part where KK wasn't even at the meeting in the fall. In fact if you believe RM, the left hand at CCWS doesn't know what the right hand is doing.


Don't you find it interesting that two guys with minimum investments (Gentilozzi and Pettit) accompanied Forsythe to last November's meetings with George but Kalkhoven wasn't there?

Or is it more surprising to learn that Vasser, Walker, Bachelart and Wiggins claim they didn't know about George's blanket offer until I called them last week?

jono

[Sean O'Gorman]

OK, I've had experience dealing with a person exactly like FTG. He called a meeting where we were going to "brainstorm" some new bylaws. When the meeting started he read his proposal and we were supposed to vote on it. Clearly he wanted no input from anyone and we protested. He got pissed and walked out. He called another meeting and when we got there, he refused to come. A third meeting was called, but he only invited people who agreed with him and they walked out. Now I get an email saying "everyone must attend because our meetings are poorly attended". WTF, it was poorly attended because he did'nt invite people. Do you get the picture, he's a megalomanic who wants to run everything but does'nt have the talent to run anything. You can't reason or negotiate with someone like that. All I'm involved in is merging two youth soccer associations, can you imagine if hundreds of millions of dollars were at stake?

Where do you work, a douche factory?

EDIT: Nevermind, I didn't read the last sentence. The question still remains. :)

[Spicoli]

bottom line is this: we only know what we read at this point.


i don;t trust anyone anymore.


except some beermakers.

[nrc]

Sounds like a verbal offer was made, otherwise why would KK make the distinction?

jono

George flatly says that there was no blanket offer. Why do you think he's lying? According to George he wasn't trying to create a merger, he was trying to poach teams.

[cart7]

George flatly says that there was no blanket offer. Why do you think he's lying? According to George he wasn't trying to create a merger, he was trying to poach teams.

Why not approach the teams though? He seems to have gone through the top guys who never passed along the potential opportunity.

[stroker]

Why not approach the teams though? He seems to have gone through the top guys who never passed along the potential opportunity.

Because approaching the teams directly is flagrant poaching and instantly recognizable to anybody, even those outside the racing community. Approaching the series heads has the appearance of "offering an opportunity".

[pchall]

I think the required commitment to two seasons in the IRL for any team switching says a lot about FTG's doubts about the IRL for 2009.



I agree, and I think that :tony: was trying to get his name in the paper during the offseason.

those big sponsorship deals with the IRL mustn't have come about

[Chief]

I find it fascinating that Tony can have a flunky leak a rumor, have Miller run with it, have Cavin deny and then run with it by having Tony George utter some incoherent quotes and the world points at CCWS. :shakehead

The racing media should be ashamed to have been manipulated in this fashion....or should I even suggest be involved in this smear campaign. it has IRL/IMS/George incompetence written ALL over it.

[Insomniac]

Well it's clear the "deal" really offered up wasn't as good as it was first reported. Many of us couldn't figure out why it didn't get done given the current state of CC, but now we can see why.

[Sean Malone]

Well it's clear the "deal" really offered up wasn't as good as it was first reported. Many of us couldn't figure out why it didn't get done given the current state of CC, but now we can see why.

Exactly. It sounds like it wasn’t really a ‘deal’ at all, but rather a vague offer of ‘helping’ whoever was “full time and sponsored” by providing a chassis and engine at some undisclosed cost. Did Tony make this ‘offer’ during one of his meetings with a single team owner, or his meeting with Gerry or his meeting with Kevin? He obviously didn’t tell them all the same thing.
Tony has a way of glossing over things in an off hand way like the discussions were merely discussed as he passed someone in the hallway.
Kevin probably told him to send something over in writing, like grown ups do, and Tony ‘forgot’.
I don’t think that Miller is a pawn in some IMS manipulation Tony isn’t that smart, although it would be just like his underlings. I simply think Miller knows he’s the last of 3 open wheel reporters, he knows that his reports will stir things up and I think he just hopes that it will stir it up enough to shake some sense into people. Unfortunately, as history has shown, Tony doesn’t have any sense, and KK/GF having invested to much time and money just to lock their doors and go twIRLing.

[Andrew Longman]

I think the required commitment to two seasons in the IRL for any team switching says a lot about FTG's doubts about the IRL for 2009.

The most ridiculous thing is if teams had sponsors and budget for two years they wouldn't need Tony's help and they would look to be moving to the IRL.

Moreso, moving the IRL isn't magically going to produce sponsors, especially in the few weeks he gave them.

[SteveH]

Moreso, moving the IRL isn't magically going to produce sponsors, especially in the few weeks he gave them.

Cas in point, Team Vision ran an entry sponsored by Vision. :tony:

[Insomniac]

Exactly. It sounds like it wasn’t really a ‘deal’ at all, but rather a vague offer of ‘helping’ whoever was “full time and sponsored” by providing a chassis and engine at some undisclosed cost. Did Tony make this ‘offer’ during one of his meetings with a single team owner, or his meeting with Gerry or his meeting with Kevin? He obviously didn’t tell them all the same thing.
Tony has a way of glossing over things in an off hand way like the discussions were merely discussed as he passed someone in the hallway.
Kevin probably told him to send something over in writing, like grown ups do, and Tony ‘forgot’.
I don’t think that Miller is a pawn in some IMS manipulation Tony isn’t that smart, although it would be just like his underlings. I simply think Miller knows he’s the last of 3 open wheel reporters, he knows that his reports will stir things up and I think he just hopes that it will stir it up enough to shake some sense into people. Unfortunately, as history has shown, Tony doesn’t have any sense, and KK/GF having invested to much time and money just to lock their doors and go twIRLing.

I doubt RM is a pawn as well. It is interesting that it took months for this information to become public. He is getting this from sources who have partial information it seems.

This whole "merger" just never makes sense. This stuff isn't all that complex. If two sides don't want to come together, the only options are to continue to compete, put your competitor out of business or hostilely takeover your competitor.

If both want to get together, get only the people who have the authority to get it done in a room and have a civil discussion about what both sides have to do to merge. If there is an impasse, make note of it and discuss again in the future if things change and the impasse can be resolved.

I think it amazes a lot of us that these guys can't do something that seems so simple. KK and GF are supposed to be good businessmen. Now RM reports they don't even seem to see eye-to-eye. If they can't agree, they can't even begin to work out something with the nit-wit, who, as we learn more to this "merger" story has shown he still has no clue about how to buy CC.

[Spicoli]

Evidently SJ met with the whole class today and said not to worry. TEAM assistance, CCWS/Unka Gerra style is being looked at. Well, duh. :tony:

[eiregosod]

I find it fascinating that Tony can have a flunky leak a rumor, have Miller run with it, have Cavin deny and then run with it by having Tony George utter some incoherent quotes and the world points at CCWS. :shakehead

The racing media should be ashamed to have been manipulated in this fashion....or should I even suggest be involved in this smear campaign. it has IRL/IMS/George incompetence written ALL over it.

I concur :thumbup:

Its not even May yet. It is Tony's last chance saloon with honda & ABC.

[Methanolandbrats]

When the TV schedule was announced a tsunami of Gomerism inundated this board..........looks like it's beginning to recede. :thumbup: When Honda bails, there is a *slight* chance of real negotiations unless Tony wants to order up some crate motors from Chevy. :D

[Don Quixote]

Honda can make it happen. Just stop returning phone calls. [wishful thinking]

[Sean Malone]

When the TV schedule was announced a tsunami of Gomerism inundated this board..........looks like it's beginning to recede. :thumbup:

Bad news tends to do that.


When Honda bails, there is a *slight* chance of real negotiations unless Tony wants to order up some crate motors from Chevy. :D

If Honda bails that is. Also, aren't the TFgomers claiming Penske is their next engine savior?

[Methanolandbrats]

Bad news tends to do that.



If Honda bails that is. Also, aren't the TFgomers claiming Penske is their next engine savior?

Honda will eventually follow Yoda to Cabs, they always do.

[Andrew Longman]

Honda will eventually follow Yoda to Cabs, they always do.

I'm not so sure of that. Definitely true when Mr Honda was alive. But they haven't even sniffed at Cup and it would take them years to get in as it did for Toyota. And it really remains to be seen how good Nascar and Toyota are for each other. Humpy sure is talking lately about the need to get back to their red neck roots. Nascar isn't likely to make it easy.

Honda instead seems content to increase their involvement with ALMS

[Andrew Longman]

Also, aren't the TFgomers claiming Penske is their next engine savior?

RP could sell them engines, but unless they badge it no one will be paying driver salaries, lining up other sponsors, buying ad time or incorporating the IRL into their larger marketing plan.

Back to Rachaels potato chips and cafeterias

[cameraman]

Honda instead seems content to increase their involvement with ALMS

Acura vs Porsche or Honda vs Dodge? I don't see NASCAR involvement ever selling more Accords and NASCAR sure doesn't fit the TSX demographic.