Cotman to IRL

[racermike]

Official today, per Speed

http://www.speedtv.com/articles/auto/indycar/42854/

Dont like that he left us, but any any career, you need to do whats in your best interests long term.

Part of me does not blame him, considering whats not happening in Champcar.

Grab some popcorn and watch the meltdowns commence over on CCF. This should be interesting.

[Wally]

Never saw it coming.....:rolleyes:

[Gnam]

I’m just going where I think the future of open-wheel racing is going to be”
That's messed up, ese.

[Indy]

“It should be a little easier in the IRL, because in Champ Car a third of the field was the series owner’s cars.”

He chuckled at that last statement because it was well known that series co-owners Gerry Forsythe and Paul Gentilozzi wanted Cotman removed as chief steward after his first season because they were mad at some of his calls.


Ouch, that hurts.

[Andrew Longman]

Ouch, that hurts.

True. But FWIW he was not fired and was allowed to do his job. That may have much more to do with how Cotman approached the job than anything else, but in the end he never reversed a call under pressure.

[jonovision_man]

Glad he's sticking with US OW, he'll be an asset to the 2009 single series.

jono

[Sean Malone]

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[SteveH]

Ouch, that hurts.

and at Indy how many cars will be funded be the series owner?

there's really little difference in that respect

[Sean Malone]

As much as this seems like another huge blow to Champ Car, I still think that, based on a snipet here and a snipit there, there is a lot going on right now and Cotman is all part of the deal. There's infrastructure to get in place, org charts to get in line. Merging two series isn't as black and white as internet fans tend to make it. I'm guessing of course.
One report a week ago had Cotman staying on with CCWS through Feb to "work out a merger with the IRL". He's a player. This ain't over by a long shot.

[Indy]

there's really little difference in that respect

Except that, as far as I know, Tony George has shown more respect for league officials when it comes to on-track decisions regarding his team.








This is starting to freak me out. :yuck:

[Methanolandbrats]

BFD, all the sheep shaggers end up in the IRL, I would'nt make too much out of it.

[stroker]

HE'S THE INSIDE MAN FOR CCWS! HE'LL WREAK HAVOC AND ROT THE IRL FROM WITHIN! A SABOTEUR SUPREME! TONY GEORGE WON'T HAVE A MOMENT'S PEACE OF MIND WHILE WORRYING ABOUT THE INTEGRITY OF HIS SERIES!

BAHAHAHAHAAHAHAAHAHAHAHAAHHA!

Oops. Wrong forum.

[Spicoli]

FTC.


no. not at all. how they f'd this up is beyond dumb.:shakehead

[Easy]

It does potentially eliminate one minor merger difficulty I've thought of for a long time. What happens to Brainfart and Kneiffel/Cotman/Barfield etc..

[Gnam]

True. But FWIW he was not fired and was allowed to do his job. That may have much more to do with how Cotman approached the job than anything else, but in the end he never reversed a call under pressure.
Has anyone ever asked him who he thought won the 2002 Indy 500? :tony:
Has he picked a favorite IRL driver yet? I'm sure the gift baskets are piling up.

[Insomniac]

That didn't take long. But that quote is funny considering they made sure PT wasn't the Indy 500 winner. (And made it more of a joke by admitting he was in the lead but the decision wasn't reviewable.)

[OW]

Happy as Heck.....
Cotman...is the PERFECT conduit for peace toward ONE series.....

And OC beats the crap out of CCF

;)

Lets not forget the I in IRL.....thats where it all began....
Throw your emotions out the window...



OW

[OW]

Just checked.......They're losing it...

They are NOT Openwheel fans they are Lemmings.... oh boy havent used that since 7thG

lol

go OC

By the way...is that toe in or toe out? hahhahahhahahh

[nrc]

Happy as Heck.....
Cotman...is the PERFECT conduit for peace toward ONE series.....


I'm not sure that follows given that Forsythe is by Robin Miller's account not a big Cottman fan. It could make him dig his heals in deeper.

[Gnam]

...admitting [PT] was in the lead but the decision wasn't reviewable.
Dear Tony C.,

Be sure to bring a 3-ring binder with you so you don't lose any important pages. Also, how 'bout publishing that IRL 2008 rulebook? 'Course it's easier to 'direct' the competition if you're the only one with a copy.
In closing, Drop Dead.

Sincereley,

Still Kicking & screaming MF'er

[jonovision_man]

As much as this seems like another huge blow to Champ Car, I still think that, based on a snipet here and a snipit there, there is a lot going on right now and Cotman is all part of the deal. There's infrastructure to get in place, org charts to get in line. Merging two series isn't as black and white as internet fans tend to make it. I'm guessing of course.
One report a week ago had Cotman staying on with CCWS through Feb to "work out a merger with the IRL". He's a player. This ain't over by a long shot.

I hope you're right... but the way he took a swipe at CCWS in the news conference suggests he's left and isn't keen on returning.

jono

[Elmo T]

I hate to see CCWS lose good people (or have them run away :confused: ). In the end though, he has bills to pay like the rest of us.

It is only what you do, not who you are...

[robot9000]

There will be no soft landing for Champcar, I'm sad to say.

RM said on Sunday's Speed News that TC had a list of things he needed to be in place in order to stay. One of them was that he be left alone to handle 'the merger' since he knows both series, having worked in both. Robin said something about a feburary date, but obviously, the answer was, No Thanks Tony. (Partisians will turn this bit into a list of demands, but most people know that negotiating employment conditions is pretty common.)

I may be off a bit as I was catching it as I was out the door (It was monday mornings rerun).

No, I don't belive Tony is there to help any sort of transition. He took a job at a competitor because he sees his current company faultering. Happens all the time.

Unfortunalty, I think GF has a burr up his butt about making back the money he dumped in CC and wants to look like he 'wins' even if he looses. Miller mentioned on the report (and I think in print too) that GF wants, like, 100M over 10 years from FTG. Apparently nobody ever told GF 'investment rule #1'. Anyway, GF, IHO, is a rich wack job to begin with, so its no suprise that he is:

1. Responsable for the dismal state of Champcar. If he runs CC like he runs his team, this is no suprise at all. Sadly.

2. Will block any type of merger, reasonable or not. He would rather see it die than work with FTG. Lots of partisians would agree. Lots just wanna watch racing.

3. Is not affected by any of this. He has so much $$$ it will not affect his daily standard of living one iota. Now, how this all affects the teams and workers at CC, um, I bet thats a different kettle of fish. But Gerrrys never been known as really being interested in the welfare of others, now has he...

4. Has somehow marginalized KK. That he aligns himself with PG is scary enough, but he has somehow both elbowed aside KK and then ignored CC. Great combo Gerry. All he's missing is emails from Paper (although he has already had Pat infiltrate his camp.)

What a ****ing mess ....:shakehead :cry: :confused: :(

[Sean Malone]

GF, IHO, is a rich wack job to begin with, so its no suprise that he is:


2. Will block any type of merger, reasonable or not. He would rather see it die than work with FTG. Lots of partisians would agree. Lots just wanna watch racing.


(

Then he'll be playing with himself in '09.

Someone needs to step up and let people know that there is a leader at Champ Car. But they won't.

[OW]

... Lots just wanna watch racing.



ahhhhh.... Yeaha.....now there's a quote....:rolleyes:

OW

[extramundane]

Someone needs to step up and let people know that there is a leader at Champ Car. But they won't.

Trouble is, I don't think any of the bunch is capable of being, nor deserves to be, a leader at this point. KK doesn't seem to care, GF only seems to care about not letting KK run the thing, Paulie Poledance only cares about playing a big shot, and Pettit...well, WTF knows about him. Steve Johnson doesn't care enough to move from Topeka, and we saw just how much of a crap Cotman gives. :\

[Sean Malone]

Trouble is, I don't think any of the bunch is capable of being, nor deserves to be, a leader at this point. KK doesn't seem to care, GF only seems to care about not letting KK run the thing, Paulie Poledance only cares about playing a big shot, and Pettit...well, WTF knows about him. Steve Johnson doesn't care enough to move from Topeka, and we saw just how much of a crap Cotman gives. :\

Paulie Poledance!!!:rofl:

Maybe there is an internet savior that will rise like a phoenix fulfilling an ancient prophecy who will grab the horns of the mighty beast and usher in 1000 years of peace filled racing.

Damn, I gotta stop watching Harry Potter movies.

[Spicoli]

Then he'll be playing with himself in '09.

Someone needs to step up and let people know that there is a leader at Champ Car. But they won't.

therein lies the problem.


Everyone is sooo frustrated with that. Nothing gets done. gerry has not been to HQ in years, and KK seems to have just given up.


Poledance Paulie, however, is there to save,,,the day,,,

[jonovision_man]

Unfortunalty, I think GF has a burr up his butt about making back the money he dumped in CC and wants to look like he 'wins' even if he looses. Miller mentioned on the report (and I think in print too) that GF wants, like, 100M over 10 years from FTG. Apparently nobody ever told GF 'investment rule #1'.

Not sure what investment rule you're referring to . :) But certainly the amount of money you put into something does not necessarily correlate to what its worth.

And there's the old adage about throwing good money after bad...

jono

[dando]

There will be no soft landing for Champcar, I'm sad to say.

RM said on Sunday's Speed News that TC had a list of things he needed to be in place in order to stay. One of them was that he be left alone to handle 'the merger' since he knows both series, having worked in both. Robin said something about a feburary date, but obviously, the answer was, No Thanks Tony. (Partisians will turn this bit into a list of demands, but most people know that negotiating employment conditions is pretty common.)

I may be off a bit as I was catching it as I was out the door (It was monday mornings rerun).

No, I don't belive Tony is there to help any sort of transition. He took a job at a competitor because he sees his current company faultering. Happens all the time.

Unfortunalty, I think GF has a burr up his butt about making back the money he dumped in CC and wants to look like he 'wins' even if he looses. Miller mentioned on the report (and I think in print too) that GF wants, like, 100M over 10 years from FTG. Apparently nobody ever told GF 'investment rule #1'. Anyway, GF, IHO, is a rich wack job to begin with, so its no suprise that he is:

1. Responsable for the dismal state of Champcar. If he runs CC like he runs his team, this is no suprise at all. Sadly.

2. Will block any type of merger, reasonable or not. He would rather see it die than work with FTG. Lots of partisians would agree. Lots just wanna watch racing.

3. Is not affected by any of this. He has so much $$$ it will not affect his daily standard of living one iota. Now, how this all affects the teams and workers at CC, um, I bet thats a different kettle of fish. But Gerrrys never been known as really being interested in the welfare of others, now has he...

4. Has somehow marginalized KK. That he aligns himself with PG is scary enough, but he has somehow both elbowed aside KK and then ignored CC. Great combo Gerry. All he's missing is emails from Paper (although he has already had Pat infiltrate his camp.)

What a ****ing mess ....:shakehead :cry: :confused: :(

Can you say Three Amigos? :-(

-Kevin

[robot9000]

Not sure what investment rule you're referring to . :) But certainly the amount of money you put into something does not necessarily correlate to what its worth.

And there's the old adage about throwing good money after bad...

jono


Investment rule #1: Don't invest (spend) any more money than you can afford to lose.

Meaning, don't bitch that you threw money hand over fist into CC and you failed to make it work out. They only had to beat FTG, so the bar was set pretty low. The blame for that falls squarely on the shoulders of the guys running it: KK, GF, and P.D. Paulie.

[jonovision_man]

Investment rule #1: Don't invest (spend) any more money than you can afford to lose.

Meaning, don't bitch that you threw money hand over fist into CC and you failed to make it work out. They only had to beat FTG, so the bar was set pretty low. The blame for that falls squarely on the shoulders of the guys running it: KK, GF, and P.D. Paulie.

I think the blame should first fall on the various incarnations of CART. There never needed to be a split, surely they could have worked something out even with TG, and even once there was a split they still held the big cards: Toyota, Honda, Ford, the great teams, the recognizable drivers, events outside of Indy that people actually attended... by the time KK gets into the picture, TG has everything.

jono

[Sean Malone]

Investment rule #1: Don't invest (spend) any more money than you can afford to lose.

Meaning, don't bitch that you threw money hand over fist into CC and you failed to make it work out. They only had to beat FTG, so the bar was set pretty low. The blame for that falls squarely on the shoulders of the guys running it: KK, GF, and P.D. Paulie.

But assuming GF's request for $100 payout (which is only Miller rumor at this point) is in response to him losing money on CC is just more speculation. If true, it could just be he wants some sort of compensation in the name of a "merger".
Basically it boils down to this; the CC teams bail and join the IRL for '09 or someone from CC brokers a transaction that fives the appearance of a "merger".
It's possible that GF's $100 mill over 10 years request was for team owners who agree to race in the IRL. So each owner gets ~$2mill for the next 10 years. Not much actually.
And it's not like it needs to come out of Tony's pocket. He can differ it through Honda. How much does Honda give the current IRL teams per year?
What KK does with Cozy I don't know. Sells it I guess.

[Methanolandbrats]

But assuming GF's request for $100 payout (which is only Miller rumor at this point) is in response to him losing money on CC is just more speculation. If true, it could just be he wants some sort of compensation in the name of a "merger".
Basically it boils down to this; the CC teams bail and join the IRL for '09 or someone from CC brokers a transaction that fives the appearance of a "merger".
It's possible that GF's $100 mill over 10 years request was for team owners who agree to race in the IRL. So each owner gets ~$2mill for the next 10 years. Not much actually.
And it's not like it needs to come out of Tony's pocket. He can differ it through Honda. How much does Honda give the current IRL teams per year?
What KK does with Cozy I don't know. Sells it I guess.

http://www.utoledo.edu/library/carlson/exhibits/gypsy/images/Gypsy_fortune_teller.jpg

[JLMannin]

But assuming GF's request for $100 payout (which is only Miller rumor at this point) is in response to him losing money on CC is just more speculation. If true, it could just be he wants some sort of compensation in the name of a "merger".
Basically it boils down to this; the CC teams bail and join the IRL for '09 or someone from CC brokers a transaction that fives the appearance of a "merger".
It's possible that GF's $100 mill over 10 years request was for team owners who agree to race in the IRL. So each owner gets ~$2mill for the next 10 years. Not much actually.
And it's not like it needs to come out of Tony's pocket. He can differ it through Honda. How much does Honda give the current IRL teams per year?
What KK does with Cozy I don't know. Sells it I guess.

Once Honda bails out, 100 MM over ten years for engines will look like a good deal. I'm sure that by that time, the price will be higher.

[extramundane]

Once Honda bails out, 100 MM over ten years for engines will look like a good deal. I'm sure that by that time, the price will be higher.

Except that TG doesn't need to pay for Cosworth engines. He'd pay Rog 10x that for Ilmors before giving KK/GF/Cosworth a dime. Or even go back to Vision 1.1 "Run Whut Ya Brung" days.

When Honda goes, it's their $$$ support that'll be the blow, not the lack of engines.

[Methanolandbrats]

When Honda goes, it's their $$$ support that'll be the blow, not the lack of engines. Maybe Honda will stay, it's the only racing series they have a very good chance of dominating. And those "Honda Wins Indy" ads in Autoweek look really swell :D

[jonovision_man]

Maybe Honda will stay, it's the only racing series they have a very good chance of dominating. And those "Honda Wins Indy" ads in Autoweek look really swell :D

Why would they leave? They're getting paid for engines. Presumably they charge enough to make it a profitable venture, the sponsorship and marketing opportunities being gravy.

jono

[Sean Malone]

Why would they leave? They're getting paid for engines. Presumably they charge enough to make it a profitable venture, the sponsorship and marketing opportunities being gravy.

jono

So they get paid for engines but prop up the series by paying driver fees etc.

I don't get it. Doesn't TF have detailed documentation I can read?

[jonovision_man]

So they get paid for engines but prop up the series by paying driver fees etc.

The books aren't public, but I strongly suspect TG is subsidizing the IRL with Indy 500 and BY400 profits, Honda's financing role has surely gone down since the departure of all their competition.

jono

[Methanolandbrats]

Why would they leave? They're getting paid for engines. Presumably they charge enough to make it a profitable venture, the sponsorship and marketing opportunities being gravy.

jono Honda get's paid? :laugh: No, the whole venture is written off as advertising expense.

[FTG]

Investment rule #1: Don't invest (spend) any more money than you can afford to lose.


He can afford to lose it. He probably just enjoys yanking Tony's chain.

I don't think Cottman leaving is a big deal. Tony is off to spend Tony's money, because KK wouldn't let Tony spend like he wanted to.

Anyone who says they know what'll happen next year is full of ****. Rich boys with expensive toys can do whatever they want. They've been doing it for the last dozen years. They'll keep doing it. Their actions might make sense, but probably won't.

[Elmo T]

...Tony's chain.... Tony is off to spend Tony's money, because KK wouldn't let Tony spend like he wanted to.



I digress, but this comes to mind:

http://www.oldies.com/i/boxart/original/08/602517080591.jpg


Maybe Bill Gates takes up open wheel racing and buys them all out... ;)

[extramundane]

Maybe Bill Gates takes up open wheel racing and buys them all out... ;)

No, Bill Gates wants to buy Yahoo, not a bunch of yahoos.

<rimshot>

[Spicoli]

No, Bill Gates wants to buy Yahoo, not a bunch of yahoos.

<rimshot>


Oh you're good. I mean, REALLY good.

[chop456]

The books aren't public, but I strongly suspect TG is subsidizing the IRL with Indy 500 and BY400 profits

Get... OUT!!! :tony:

[jonovision_man]

Get... OUT!!! :tony:

I would have thought it obvious too... :p but some people want to believe that Honda is still pouring money into the IRL. Defies logic, really.

jono

[Spicoli]

I would have thought it obvious too... :p but some people want to believe that Honda is still pouring money into the IRL. Defies logic, really.

jono

Who says Honda is NOT pouring money into the EARL? I dare say, though, that with ClarkE's departure, nothing is sure for the future. :tony:

[jonovision_man]

Who says Honda is NOT pouring money into the EARL? I dare say, though, that with ClarkE's departure, nothing is sure for the future. :tony:

How much would you pay to compete with nobody? We know the teams pay for their engines, so that's revenue to Honda, not expense... obviously they put some money into St. Pete and into Andretti for the adverts he does, but other than that, you think there's much?

Remember when the Honda lease price went down to make it more attractive? Who paid for that? I would suggest it's Tony, Honda more or less has the guy over a barrel, there's no impetus for them to spend more than they have to.

jono

[Methanolandbrats]

I would have thought it obvious too... :p but some people want to believe that Honda is still pouring money into the IRL. Defies logic, really.

jono When you enter a sporting contest that pays prize money, the IRS allows you to deduct all expenses associated with painting your company name on the cars. It's advertising. Even FTG is not stupid enough to give away multi-million dollar ad placements.
:shakehead

[Insomniac]

Who pays Disney for all the Honda ads? The IRL gets their money from Disney whether they sell ad time or not. Is Disney giving Honda free ad time? I doubt it.

[jonovision_man]

When you enter a sporting contest that pays prize money, the IRS allows you to deduct all expenses associated with painting your company name on the cars. It's advertising. Even FTG is not stupid enough to give away multi-million dollar ad placements.
:shakehead

I'm not saying he's giving them away... more like bartering them away for engine discounts.

I'll put it another way... when the IRL first landed Honda and Toyota, both dumped whack-loads of money into teams so they could (a) attract them to the IRL, and (b) win. The costs drove Chevy out, then Toyota... and Honda was left alone, with no reason to continue dumping money into the teams. Instead, the teams now pay Honda for engines. And who keeps the engine price low? That's not Honda's buck, it's Tony.

IMO. :) But I don't see how any other scenario really makes sense. Honda doesn't need to spend big bucks here, it needs to provide engines and sorely needed cred.

jono

[Andrew Longman]

Supposedly, they've paid driver salaries too. Dario was said to be under contract to Honda for years. And Honda (actually all the manufacterers were contractually required to) bought TV ads and other media time/space which helps with the ABC contract and helps increase sponsor value generally becuase those ads promote the IRL as much as Honda.

But Jono your scenario is likely correct to one degree or another. They surely are dialling back because there is no reason not to and that hurts the series generally.

[Insomniac]

I'm not saying he's giving them away... more like bartering them away for engine discounts.

I'll put it another way... when the IRL first landed Honda and Toyota, both dumped whack-loads of money into teams so they could (a) attract them to the IRL, and (b) win. The costs drove Chevy out, then Toyota... and Honda was left alone, with no reason to continue dumping money into the teams. Instead, the teams now pay Honda for engines. And who keeps the engine price low? That's not Honda's buck, it's Tony.

IMO. :) But I don't see how any other scenario really makes sense. Honda doesn't need to spend big bucks here, it needs to provide engines and sorely needed cred.

jono

It's still a spec engine. The R&D costs are gone. The engines aren't running at their limits. They aren't giving them to everyone, but they don't cost much either.