WARNING ! Meltdown in progress!!!

[cart7]

:rofl:

Meltdown here (http://66.223.17.243/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=026707&p=)

[pchall]

Now this is funny!

>>Chevrolet expected to have at least nine cars, but PDM Racing lacks sponsorship and Team Menard lacks motivation for its second car (for rookie Vitor Meira).

Said John Menard: "What's the point? We have no power. Are we going to put 'Loser' on the sidepod for a sponsor?"<<

[Spicoli]

Classic. when are they going to wake up and admit they have been lied to, betrayed, and used up like a $10 hooker.

[cart7]

Said John Menard: "What's the point? We have no power. Are we going to put 'Loser' on the sidepod for a sponsor?"<<

He did it for years when he ran his V6's, what's the problem now John? :laugh:

[pchall]

Originally posted by cart7
Said John Menard: "What's the point? We have no power. Are we going to put 'Loser' on the sidepod for a sponsor?"<<

He did it for years when he ran his V6's, what's the problem now John? :laugh:

Back in the bad ol' Buick days John had the rule book and the favor of the management on his side.

Now he's just screwed.

[rabbit]

Originally posted by Racemind:
The answer to all these questions is and forever will be: Look at CART.

Tony's fine. Indy's fine. There will be 33 cars. Why is that important? Because it is -- if you don't get it, you don't get it.

Don't worry, go to the race and have a blast everyone! :cool:

:saywhat: Remember when they used to call us ostriches? :laugh:

[RaceGrrl]

Said John Menard: "What's the point? We have no power. Are we going to put 'Loser' on the sidepod for a sponsor?

What difference does it make if the sidepod says Menard or Loser, it means the same thing.

[DaveL]

Originally posted by rabbit
:saywhat: Remember when they used to call us ostriches? :laugh:

Exactly.

Indy this year is all about empty seats, low ratings, and short fields and some of these idiots are still thinking everything is just fine an Indy hasn't been damaged or diminished in any way.

The denial and rationalizations would be funny if what was happening at the race we once loved wasn't so tragic and disgraceful.

[WickerBill]

That's what PISSES me off. I hate being thrown aside as a "hater" when in reality, there is NO WAY that any of them loved Indy more than I did. They have no earthly idea how much time (and money) I spent there every May of my adult life until 1996. No idea how much I hated, but respected, Penske for his loophole win in 1994. How I sat in the grandstands in 1982 and watched Smiley die.

I loved that place. Correction: I love that place. But I saw what appeared to me to be a power grab with the formation of the IRL, and I stuck to my guns and was proven right.

If you're reading this, do NOT lump me in with "CART fans" and tell me that I don't understand. I do understand. I understood before you did. I was NEVER a fan of CART until I was forced by Tony George to choose a side. When I say that attendance is down, or that the car count is pathetic, or that the propaganda coming from IRL leadership makes me sick, I'm not speaking as a "CART fan". I'm speaking as a fan that Indy lost. I only wanted the Indy 500 to prosper and "win". And starting with the formation of the IRL, continuing with the desecration of nearly every tradition at Indy, and the resulting fan and media apathy, the Indy 500 is losing. Therefore, I detest the things that have caused this predicament. Go ahead and tell me that CART caused this! Go ahead!

1. CART was greedy and wanted to shorten May.
- No, some car owners wanted to shorten May. To put that in perspective, some car owners now want concessions for Chevy a la NASCAR. Doesn't mean it's right or that it's going to happen.

2. Penske pissed off Tony with the 94 loophole win.
- CART had CLOSED that loophole two years before by reducing stockblock boost from 55" to 50". Tony didn't -- Tony's fault.

3. CART was dominated by foreign drivers. Short track drivers didn't get a shot.
- Pot, meet kettle.

4. CART was running too many road courses.
- Every oval CART ran at did very well at the gate (Loudon, Phoenix, Michigan, Indy, Milwaukee, etc.). They did not run at ovals that didn't have strong support (Pocono, etc.). Since the formation of the IRL, open-wheel oval racing has died at the gate -- almost completely.

5. Engine manufacturers had too much control.
- This is cyclical. Manufacturers come and go; they leave when they dominate or get dominated, they come when they have something to prove. March chassis had complete control in the mid 80s and screwed several car owners by not giving them timely updates. Oh the outrage! Uh, by the way, pot, meet kettle.

6. The boycott ruined Indy.
- No, 25/8 ruined Indy. Drop that rule, and what happens? CART shows up with 1995 chassis. The two sides have a year more of negotiating -- who knows?

Blame CART all you want for the Indy's problems, but I was smart enough in 1996 to call a spade a spade and tell anyone who would listen that it was a power grab that would destroy the sport. I was right. You were wrong. DAMN IT, Tony George, you have no idea what you stole from me.

[RaceGrrl]

WickerBill- Wow. Great post. :thumbup:

[Hot Rod Otis]

Good post WickerBill.:thumbup: Further evidence that many longtime CART fans have a keener appreciation of what once was, and a greater sense and sadness at what is probably gone forever. Meanwhile, the self-proclaimed "true believers" are frantically trying to justify the damage that has been done, dismiss the greatness and uniqueness that once was and try desperately to claim that all is well.:shakehead :shakehead

[RaceChic]

Originally posted by Hot Rod Otis
Good post WickerBill.:thumbup: Further evidence that many longtime CART fans have a keener appreciation of what once was, and a greater sense and sadness at what is probably gone forever. Meanwhile, the self-proclaimed "true believers" are frantically trying to justify the damage that has been done, dismiss the greatness and uniqueness that once was and try desperately to claim that all is well.:shakehead :shakehead

Well said to both Wickerbill and Hot Rod Otis.
Sometimes there just isn't anything else to say........:shakehead :shakehead :shakehead :shakehead

[Spicoli]

Sweet post Bill. I live in Indy & feel the same pain. I went back to watch Montoya, Gil & PT, and now realize what I did was a BIG mistake.

Where there used to be too many parties to possibly attend on race weekend, now there are none. People slept in their cars, b/c they couldn't get hotel rooms; media, sponsors, international travelers everywhere...you had to wait 20 minutes to get thru a drive-thru at BurgerWorld....but those days are over. Its sad what one man's grab for power has done, and cost me as a citizen. The economic impact is just null at this point.

Thanks for calling a spade a spade.

:(

[DaveL]

What Wickerbill said.

My year was literally how soon until I could go to Indy and how long since I had been there.

I LOVED the place and race.

[rabbit]

The Indy 500 made me an open-wheel fan.

Tony George made me a CART fan.

[skidmarks]

I still have the '73 program framed on my wall.

I loved the race, the track, it makes me mad how it has been diminished. Gordon Smiley was a friend of my parents. I agree with Wickerbill 110%.

[racer2c]

I want to add my agreement in a great post WB. Another voice of contention. If the fans can 'see it', why can't the people who have control 'see it'? When will this end? Ewww, racewriters post just popped into my head. Now I'm bummed.

[racer2c]

Oh, I forgot to add that there is one thing wrong with your post WB. I was the biggest fan of Indy! ;) :D

[RaceGrrl]

I just had an interesting conversation with my boss, who lived in Indianapolis for years. She asked me about Indy qualifying because she knows I'm a CART fan, though she doesn't know the difference between CART and the IRL. I told her that I hadn't been paying attention because I don't follow the IRL but that I know that for the first time in decades that there will likely not be a full field.

When she asked why I explained it without rhetoric. Her response: "What a shame. I remember when May was all about the 500. That was when it meant something."

Thanks, Tony, for saving open wheel racing in America.

[Spicoli]

RaceGrrrl - If I've heard that once this month, I've heard it a thousand times - and I live here. It's just sad what he's done.

[devilmaster]

Kudos to WB and HRO :thumbup:

They have so eloquently said what most people fight for on these forums every day.

Its not about CART and the IRL. Its about open wheel. And one man destroyed it because he thought he could have power and whole control. Alot of the people who believed Tony George in 1996 have changed their minds. Some are now seeing what the problem is.

I fell in love with this sport in the early 80's by staying up late on a Sunday night to watch the tape delayed races because they didn't show it live back then.

Cogan(?) crashing a third of the field out as they came to the Green. Danny Sullivan's spin and win. Guerrero losing it on a pace lap. Al Jr. and Scott Goodyear. Scott Goodyear and Jaques Villeneuve. Penske not making the field. The Indy brought me to IndyCar racing.

All these things I loved about the sport. There was no proof positive need for the IRL, save Tony wanting it all. We had a good thing going, over 2 ratings for TV. Packed stands in tons of Road, Street AND Oval courses.

Think about the amount of people that were at both the Indy and the US 500 that first year. the amount of people that will show up at Indy and Michigan this year more than likely won't sell out IMS. How far we have fallen.

IMHO, there is only one to blame. One man. Tony. Instead of working to make Indycar better, he wanted power. And in the process, he destroyed OW as we know it, for both CARTisans and IRListas.

Thanks, idiotgrandson.
Steve

[pchall]

Originally posted by RaceGrrl
WickerBill- Wow. Great post. :thumbup:

Hey.

I second that!

A site owner with smarts and a sense of historical perspective. You don't see that very often.

[RaceChic]

What ya wanna bet that that thread gets the axe??????:D :D :D

[Hink]

I'll eighteenth WB's post (or whatever number we're up to)

Most of the "CART Fan / IRL haters" were some of the biggest fans Indy ever had - back when Indy was cool.

[Racewriter]

Originally posted by WickerBill
That's what PISSES me off. I hate being thrown aside as a "hater" when in reality, there is NO WAY that any of them loved Indy more than I did. They have no earthly idea how much time (and money) I spent there every May of my adult life until 1996. No idea how much I hated, but respected, Penske for his loophole win in 1994. How I sat in the grandstands in 1982 and watched Smiley die.

I loved that place. Correction: I love that place. But I saw what appeared to me to be a power grab with the formation of the IRL, and I stuck to my guns and was proven right.



Wanna really be pissed off, Bill? Be an original IRL fan who felt like they were on the right track in 1996. Then, get disgusted with the weak-assed way the league is going. THEN, be dismissed as a "hater.":rolleyes: Then you'd really have something to be pissed about.

[rabbit]

Originally posted by Racewriter
Wanna really be pissed off, Bill? Be an original IRL fan who felt like they were on the right track in 1996. Then, get disgusted with the weak-assed way the league is going. THEN, be dismissed as a "hater.":rolleyes: Then you'd really have something to be pissed about. That's what's truly phenomenal about the idiotgrandson. He's managed to either p!$$ off or disillusion just about every fan except for the most stubborn ostriches.

[RichK]

1975 Indy was my first race, at 8 years old. Sometimes I wish I could return to my 8 year old brain (my wife probably thinks it wouldn't be a stretch as it is) & enjoy racing for the sights and sounds of it......without knowing about all the jackass team owners and track owner.

Did anyone catch Earl Ma's post on 7G? He was one of only 3 reporters at the front row press conference, so they cancelled it. Damn, this sport is toast.

[Ziggy]

An original IRL fan? How old are you? You actually bought into the line of crap? This has been coming on for eight years. In the process, openwheel racing is dead. The trickle down effect is this, when USAC events were held at IRP, Fairgrounds, TerreHaute, several of folks went. Since the tantrum, I cant even find anyone to go with me anymore. It just killed the gate, everywhere. Its a fact.

WB - Great post. I have spent a lifetime following the sport. Many, many racefans feel the exact same way. From catching Jimmy Clark fever in 1964 to buying a home next to IMS. The stuff I have accumulated is jaw dropping. (need a front wing off Janet Guthrie's first Indycar ride) The men and machines and the pursuit of speed was a quest that was more interesting than all others to me. It was about world class, it was about being the best, it was about spending the most, it was about the prettiest, the sexiest, the ugliest, the best effort, the fly by nighters, the noise, the speed and the Greatest Spectacle.

Now its about August. Indy is a mere shadow of its former self

Ziggy

[JLMannin]

Originally posted by Ziggy
Now its about August. Indy is a mere shadow of its former self

Ziggy

It's all about my son? Cool. :D :D :D

Edit:
I forgot! Excellent post, WB. Yours and Hot Rod Otis's on 7G are both in the running for best post of the month.

[Napoleon]

Perfectly said WB.

[nrc]

Excellant post, WB. As one who argued these points on USENET even before RASI existed (it was one big RAS group back then), let me add a few more classics:

7. Indy Car needs a dictator, like NASCAR and F1.

I always said that CART needed a stronger executive officer. But Tony George embodies nearly every bad thing about having the sport run by a dictator.

8. It was CART's fault that NASCAR became more popular than IndyCar.

The truth is that NASCAR was already well on it's way to being more popular than Indy car racing by the time CART took over. These people have little understanding of just how weak the series was outside of the Indy 500 in the late '70s.

9: "Jeff Gordon!"

[lone_groover]

WB......a'ight!:thumbup:

[pchall]

Originally posted by Racewriter
Be an original IRL fan who felt like they were on the right track in 1996. Then, get disgusted with the weak-assed way the league is going. THEN, be dismissed as a "hater.":rolleyes: Then you'd really have something to be pissed about.

LOL!

So, what exactly are your racewriter/racefan credentials since you took <edit> that load from the beginning?

[Classic Apex]

Perfectly spoken, WickerBill.

:cool:

[DaveL]

Originally posted by pchall
So, what exactly are your racewriter/racefan credentials since you took <edit> that load from the beginning?

I'll hope you're being sarcastic. R-Dub is a-ok in my book.

Back on the topic, I pulled out my 1993 Yearbook. Ten years ago, before Idiotgrandson decided he had to fix things, 102 cars were entered for the race and the economy wasn't exactly going great guns back then either. 44 different drivers (2 more if you coun't AJ and Mike Groff who tested for Rahal) turned laps. The amount of qualification attempts is too large to even count, but two drivers-Mark Smith and Eddie Cheever were bumped twice to give you an idea.

I might has well have written about 100 years ago for as far as Indy has fallen.

[Railbird]

Kudos WickerBill

I've tried desperately to hang on to Indy.

This year my lifetime tickets will give me a damn good view (vision?) of a short field and empty seats.



Of course I'm a "CART fan" to the Hulmanistas even though I've invested more of my life in The Greatest Spectacle than most of them combined.

[DaveL]

Originally posted by Railbird
Of course I'm a "CART fan" to the Hulmanistas even though I've invested more of my life in The Greatest Spectacle than most of them combined.

Y'know what I get a kick of Railbird? The same Lemmings who hardly understand the qualifying rules or would flunk a rudimentary trivia test about the race call us, the ones who can tell what year a photo was taken by looking at the order the numbers are on the scoring tower or by the shape of the exhaust pipes on a DOHC Ford, are called the "Indy haters". The Lemmings who think the IRL was about upholding "tradition" have scarcely any idea of what those traditions were in the first place.

[Railbird]

Trust me Dave, I get beat over the head with that crap constantly. So called experts that wouldn't know Jud Larson from Jud Phillips lecturing me on Indy and it's traditions. These idiots are ready to shrug off a short field while still condemning Emmo as the anti-Christ because he didn't suck down enough moo juice.

[Hot Rod Otis]

Originally posted by Railbird


Of course I'm a "CART fan" to the Hulmanistas even though I've invested more of my life in The Greatest Spectacle than most of them combined.

Same here, although I don't have the seniority that you do Railbird. I grew up on the 500. I remember my old man teaching me how to keep the old Indy Star/News lap charts. I remember staying up all night when I was @ Kadena AFB on Okinawa to listen to the 1980 500. I also remember yelling at my drunken roommates to shut the F**K up so I could hear Howdy Bell give the 140 lap rundown so I could keep my homemade lap chart, (Stars & Stripes didn't have one:mad: )current. I stayed up all the night the next year @ Lajes AFB in the Azores despite the fact that I had to pull a 24hr shift @ 0600. I got the Star sent to my home every year until the internet came along. I bought Hugness yearbooks religiously. But now, since I didn't buy into The Vision, I'm considered a heretic, A CARTisan by by "longtime" fans who know squat about it. I figure I've forgotten more about Indy than half of 'em ever knew, Indycentric fan forum site owner included.:mad:

[RTKar]

I think Tony just hit himself in the thumb with that hammer.

[ChrisB]

Good post WB!

Count me in along with all the rest who are so dissapointed to see what Indy has become now.

Last year I found a video clip I still had from the old ESPN Speedweek from before the start of the '94 race in which scenes of the drivers walking around Gasoline Alley getting ready with "Back Home Again" playing overtop of it. Goosebumps.

I also remember during the race last year (or the year before) of seeing clips before the broadcast from the early-mid 90's of the turbo Indy cars wailing around around the track. Geez that was great!

[RaceChic]

Originally posted by RTKar
I think Tony just hit himself in the thumb with that hammer.

I was hoping for something a little more painful and a little more south.........:gomer:

[DaveL]

Originally posted by Hot Rod Otis
I bought Hugness yearbooks religiously. But now, since I didn't buy into The Vision, I'm considered a heretic, A CARTisan by by "longtime" fans who know squat about it. I figure I've forgotten more about Indy than half of 'em ever knew, Indycentric fan forum site owner included.:mad:

That would have been the rest of my post, Otis. And on top of the Hungness books, I read just about every book of or pertaining to the race and have a redweld folder of newpaper articles from yesteryear that I copied off of microfilm because I had such passion for Indy and its history.

We, the ones who can tell you what year that picture of a McLaren was taken buy looking at shape of the radiators are the heretics, and ones who couldn't tell an Eagle from a chicken are the ones passing the judgement on us :flame:

[rocket]

WB = Passionate racefan:thumbup: good job.

Btw I tried the link in the begining of this thread and this is what I got.
"Sorry, this message board is closed for a very short time while we fixed some broken threads... ETA: 1940 Gomer Central - - Meanwhile, Go to http://www.220mph.com/forums/ "

Meltdown you say... I'd call it crash & burn:shakehead

[RaceChic]

Like I was saying..... What ya wanna make a bet that the thread gets the axe???? That's one way of preventing others from knowing the real deal.........:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

[IlliniRacer]

Now we know why WickerBill is the boss :thumbup: :thumbup:

[RaceChic]

BTW...... There was a post at the end of the other forums topic where someone stated that they would have stuck their neck out over the last 7 years to defend the IRL, but that now he is embarassed that he bought into the propaganda.......... it's gone. Deleted?:eek:

[Classic Apex]

That entire thread is now gone.



:rofl: :rofl:

[RaceChic]

Originally posted by Brian Ericson
That entire thread is now gone.

Revenge is a dish best served cold, and served by someone else to themselves by one of their own.............:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Hink]

Originally posted by Brian Ericson
That entire thread is now gone.



:rofl: :rofl:

And that's lemming for, "It NEVER happend!"

[RaceChic]

Originally posted by Hink
And that's lemming for, "It NEVER happend!"

Noooooooooooooo...... Not true........
I printed out a hard copy.............Anyone have a scanner????? :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Racewriter]

Thread's still up - I checked. But my response is gone...

[RaceChic]

Not if you go to the site and start fresh in the IRL section.... It is not on the subject list of things to choose from, but still accessible from our link in this thread...for now..........:laugh:

[DaveL]

Originally posted by Racewriter
Thread's still up - I checked. But my response is gone...

Looks like you're an official Indy-hating heretic like the rest of us. Has anyone told you that you don't know what Indy means yet? ;)

[Racewriter]

Originally posted by DaveL
Looks like you're an official Indy-hating heretic like the rest of us. Has anyone told you that you don't know what Indy means yet? ;)

Actually, they're doing it right now in the chat room...:rolleyes:

[DaveL]

Originally posted by Racewriter
Actually, they're doing it right now in the chat room...:rolleyes:

In all seriousness I'd consider that a badge of honor. I have since 1996.

[Hink]

Originally posted by DaveL
Looks like you're an official Indy-hating heretic like the rest of us. Has anyone told you that you don't know what Indy means yet? ;)


Originally posted by Racewriter
Actually, they're doing it right now in the chat room...:rolleyes:

Well then - they're trying - I guess - but their tense is all wrong.

Has anyone told them that they just don't know what Indy meant yet?

Most people on the boards realize that Indy once meant a whole lot.

Through the years I've seen every time that the arguments between the CART Fans and the Lemmings over what Indy used to be are very small. The present day (internet) and the state of the "Remember What It Used To Be 500" from then until now have always been the serious problems.

Sure it's sad to see the old girl's gone away. Some people realized she sang her last song in 1995 after she got married to an @$$hole, some people are now realizing she's not going to sing again, and some people will continue to think she's still singing to them in their own ears, even though she ain't, no matter what.

.

BTW - Thanks to the Track Forum Information Minister for kindly allowing me to download a properly edited and, at one time, out of print topic.

Send Him a Hail Tony for me. (I never did or will post there - that's your turf.)

[mapguy]

:thumbup: da Boss hits one out of the park. :thumbup:

cheers WB!

[Kate]

I confess I was never an Indy 500 fan, but everything y'all have said applies to Formula One before 1993 and Le Mans when the Rothmans Porsche was the highest form of GT life. But when I dare to question the fact that today's mind-numbing parade of F1 'cars' with their pre-ordained finishing order isn't really racing, all I hear is that Michael Schumacher is the greatest racing driver who ever lived.

The world keeps changing and sometimes it stinks.

[BlueStang]

Originally posted by WickerBill
6. The boycott ruined Indy.
- No, 25/8 ruined Indy. Drop that rule, and what happens? CART shows up with 1995 chassis. The two sides have a year more of negotiating -- who knows?
While I can't argue with most of your post, I think you can point the finger both ways on this one. Some of the CART owners convinced Tony to hold off on changing specs for a year so that the current (at the time) CART cars could run IRL races, including Indy. He did so, then CART made late changes to their specs, which made them incompatable with the IRL (old CART) spec.

If CART had not done this, and had not altered their schedule after the IRL schedule was announced, CART teams could have run all three IRL events, including Indy, and the 25/8 would have been moot. Dropping 25/8 would possibly have brought teams over, but only if they were willing to hold onto their 1995 equipment. I doubt you will find many fans who will defend 25/8.

[BlueStang]

Originally posted by RaceChic
What ya wanna bet that that thread gets the axe??????:D :D :D

It is, sadly, now locked. :eek:

Are you a fortune-teller?? :p :D

[RaceChic]

Gotta wonder what happened overnight.......
"While the cat is away, the mice will play" :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[pchall]

Originally posted by BlueStang
... He did so, then CART made late changes to their specs, which made them incompatable with the IRL (old CART) spec.
...

If memory serves, CART's chassis regs were indeed changed for 1996, and those changes were safety related.

[RaceGrrl]

... and if that's the case, CART was willing to make changes for the safety of their drivers, even though doing so made it difficult or impossible for them to run at Indy. That says a lot about CART's concern for their drivers. Can't say the same thing for the IRL.

[WickerBill]

Originally posted by BlueStang

CART teams could have run all three IRL events

Bingo. That's the power grab of 25/8. I think you said it all right there. It had very little to do with giving the little guy a shot; it had everything to do with twisting car owners' arms into running all IRL races for the priviledge of running Indy.

[doppelganger]

Great post WickerBill. You have stated perfectly what so many feel.

[RaceChic]

All gone now...............:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Definately turning out to be a better month of May than I thought it would be!!!:D

[pchall]

It is odd that it takes seven years for the proctology report to be read and understood.

[nrc]

Originally posted by BlueStang
While I can't argue with most of your post, I think you can point the finger both ways on this one. Some of the CART owners convinced Tony to hold off on changing specs for a year so that the current (at the time) CART cars could run IRL races, including Indy.

You've got your facts mixed up. I just can't bring myself to rehash it for the 1000th time.

It's fair to say that CART's owners weren't the least bit interested in cooperating with the creation of the IRL. Why anyone considers their resistance to be justification for Tony putting a bullet in the head of Indy, I'm not quite sure.

[oddlycalm]

WB, when you nail it, you really swing the hammer.:thumbup: Should be mandatory reading for every race forum. This is the best thread I've read in a long time.

Well saids to 'bird, DaveL and all the rest of you. It's painful to see such blind loyalty from people that don't even know what it's all about. The real shame of it is that they will never get to have the experiences that we had. I browse TF once in a while, but I simply find it too depressing, and me telling them isn't going to make any difference at all. It's like the classic Harley line, "If I gotta explain, you won't understand."


Originally posted by nrc
You've got your facts mixed up. I just can't bring myself to rehash it for the 1000th time.

Amen. Sigh... :shakehead