View Full Version : Miller reports merger is imminent
Methanolandbrats
02-08-08, 05:49 PM
Anyone know where FTG`s plane is though?;)
:saywhat: Maybe it strayed into Russian airspace. :thumbup:
How did these guys make any money in business? Press releases to the forums, series owners spouting off left and right, wild media speculation, leaks to said media, etc. The local little league teams seem to be run with more business acumen. :shakehead
Racing Truth
02-08-08, 06:16 PM
No, I can't blame Robin. Or any of the media. Someone leaked it to them. And he has quotes. Many of them. So some wanted to discuss it. I can't believe that a leak scuttled the whole thing again. Its happened before - or at least that reason has been used before. I would hope these giants of industry :cough: :cough: would have everyone involved sign a non-disclosure statement the next time it pops up. And nothing happens until the relative few people that are truly on the inside sign such a statement.
Regardless TravelGal, we'll have a chance to trade beers again at the Hyatt. Maybe for the last time, but we will for sure this year. :thumbup:
Thank you.:thumbup: I'm not sure who to blame, but its not Robin.
Racing Truth
02-08-08, 06:47 PM
How stupid of them to not post that on the CCWS site. :saywhat: Speaks volumes about how mature on organization CCWS is.
And now I have to shower yet again.... :irked: :gomer:
-Kevin
What,,,,,are you saying,,,? CCCF is the epitome of rational, professional discussion.:gomer:
FCYTravis
02-08-08, 07:24 PM
Robin's a journalist. His job is to break news stories. That's what SPEED pays him to do. He's doing his job. Whether the people he's reporting on like it or not, or whether it's convenient for them - is irrelevant.
TravelGal
02-08-08, 07:44 PM
Robin's a journalist. His job is to break news stories. That's what SPEED pays him to do. He's doing his job. Whether the people he's reporting on like it or not, or whether it's convenient for them - is irrelevant.
I see your point Travis. You come at it from the journalist side so I'll leave it that we have different ideas on the subject. I don't want to derail this into a debate on "the public has a right to know."
Yep, Steve, seems like this will be it for the LB Hyatt crowd. Better go get E off that motorcycle and make sure he attends too.
FCYTravis
02-08-08, 07:50 PM
I just think if it's this friggin' sensitive that even a whisper to the press will blow the whole thing, then clearly the people doing the deal have done an absolutely terrible job keeping the lid on this. They apparently know nothing about OPSEC.
Either that, or this is a bunch of engineered leaks by one side or the other designed to screw things up.
Why would either side confirm to Robin that something's going on, if it was that sensitive? If you're really committed to keeping something under wraps, you've got to have the self-control to shut up about it if a piece of it leaks.
cameraman
02-08-08, 08:13 PM
They apparently know nothing about OPSEC.
:rofl: :rofl: :shakehead :flame:
It is clear none of the people in charge with either series have a clue how a company should be run.
A big hello to everyone I used to know from the days of yore! :D ;)
I'm an old refugee from the rec.alt.sports.indy, SpeedNut, SpeedCenter & Seventh Gear forums (in that order). I've posted here a few times (can count the times on one hand, probably). I do read this forum enough to keep track of what is going on with my beloved Champcar and I still watch some of the races (although not obsessively like I did 10-18 years ago). Not as many as I catch on YouTube, which just about says it all.
I know this merger (capitulation) is inevitable (even if it doesn't happen this time) and I suppose it may save American open wheel racing, but nothing in all these years has diminished my sheer and utter hatred for the IRL. I simply cannot abide that series and can't imagine myself watching it even with Champcar's (necessary for its survival) participation.
I grew up loving the Indy 500; haven't seen it since 1995 and the thought of watching it again makes me physically ill.....okay, not that bad, but I ain't watching it, LOL! Uck Findy!
I wanna cry...:cry: :cry:
I know that have to do this, but is sucks, sucks, sucks......
...and I still won't watch.
Mary
A big hello to everyone I used to know from the days of yore! :D ;)
I'm an old refugee from the rec.alt.sports.indy, SpeedNut, SpeedCenter & Seventh Gear forums (in that order). I've posted here a few times (can count the times on one hand, probably). I do read this forum enough to keep track of what is going on with my beloved Champcar and I still watch some of the races (although not obsessively like I did 10-18 years ago). Not as many as I catch on YouTube, which just about says it all.
I know this merger (capitulation) is inevitable (even if it doesn't happen this time) and I suppose it may save American open wheel racing, but nothing in all these years has diminished my sheer and utter hatred for the IRL. I simply cannot abide that series and can't imagine myself watching it even with Champcar's (necessary for its survival) participation.
I grew up loving the Indy 500; haven't seen it since 1995 and the thought of watching it again makes me physically ill.....okay, not that bad, but I ain't watching it, LOL! Uck Findy!
I wanna cry...:cry: :cry:
I know that have to do this, but is sucks, sucks, sucks......
...and I still won't watch.
Mary
Hi Mary!...R.A.S.I. ?
Bitter Beer/PowderdToastMan (circa 2001-3)...right here, LOL
Hi Mary!...R.A.S.I. ?
Bitter Beer/PowderdToastMan (circa 2001-3)...right here, LOL
Yeah, back when I first got online in 1997. Had a 9600 baud modem. Lots of fun.....
Mary
doppelganger
02-08-08, 08:28 PM
A big hello to everyone I used to know from the days of yore! :D ;)
I'm an old refugee from the rec.alt.sports.indy, SpeedNut, SpeedCenter & Seventh Gear forums (in that order). I've posted here a few times (can count the times on one hand, probably). I do read this forum enough to keep track of what is going on with my beloved Champcar and I still watch some of the races (although not obsessively like I did 10-18 years ago). Not as many as I catch on YouTube, which just about says it all.
I know this merger (capitulation) is inevitable (even if it doesn't happen this time) and I suppose it may save American open wheel racing, but nothing in all these years has diminished my sheer and utter hatred for the IRL. I simply cannot abide that series and can't imagine myself watching it even with Champcar's (necessary for its survival) participation.
I grew up loving the Indy 500; haven't seen it since 1995 and the thought of watching it again makes me physically ill.....okay, not that bad, but I ain't watching it, LOL! Uck Findy!
I wanna cry...:cry: :cry:
I know that have to do this, but is sucks, sucks, sucks......
...and I still won't watch.
Mary
Hey Mary! Nice to see you posting here. I remember you from the older forums. You were always a voice of reason growing from your love of the sport. I agree with your post. Many of us won't watch. Sad, but true.
Racing Truth
02-08-08, 08:38 PM
I just think if it's this friggin' sensitive that even a whisper to the press will blow the whole thing, then clearly the people doing the deal have done an absolutely terrible job keeping the lid on this. They apparently know nothing about OPSEC.
Either that, or this is a bunch of engineered leaks by one side or the other designed to screw things up.
Why would either side confirm to Robin that something's going on, if it was that sensitive? If you're really committed to keeping something under wraps, you've got to have the self-control to shut up about it if a piece of it leaks.
Yep, but the question I'd love to know (again) is who the h=ll is leaking this stuff? TG, BB, GF, KK, or a "third party" (Foyt, Paulie Poledance, or even Haas) with malicious intent?
Accipiter
02-08-08, 08:42 PM
What is this, at least the third time they have blamed dissolution of talks on a leak? At some point they either have to learn their lesson, or just push forward in spite of it. Not that I want to see it end on these weak-ass terms anyway, but this is getting beyond absurd.
Methanolandbrats
02-08-08, 09:50 PM
"leak?" Don't you have to have valuable information for there to be a leak?
Robin's a journalist. His job is to break news stories. That's what SPEED pays him to do. He's doing his job. Whether the people he's reporting on like it or not, or whether it's convenient for them - is irrelevant.
I don't buy it. Miller has for years been calling for people with a lot more skin in the game then him to "do the right thing for the good of the sport" regardless of their own interests. But he can't take his own advice and wait for there to be ink on paper?
formulaben
02-08-08, 09:58 PM
It could be that it was "leaked" to put pressure on Honda/Motegi. Who wants to be a roadblock to mergification? :tony:
It could be that it was "leaked" to put pressure on Honda/Motegi. Who wants to be a roadblock to mergification? :tony:
Especially in the light of Clarke's efforts the past couple of years to get both side together, only to be told to fark off.
Wheel-Nut
02-08-08, 10:17 PM
A big hello to everyone I used to know from the days of yore! :D ;)
I'm an old refugee from the rec.alt.sports.indy, SpeedNut, SpeedCenter & Seventh Gear forums (in that order). I've posted here a few times (can count the times on one hand, probably).
Mary
Do you remember Mark St., Dino, Rev Limiter from the Speedcenter forum?
I don't buy it. Miller has for years been calling for people with a lot more skin in the game then him to "do the right thing for the good of the sport" regardless of their own interests. But he can't take his own advice and wait for there to be ink on paper?
Sorry, Richard, but I disagree. RM's job is to grab eyeballs. If he's got a hot story, he has to get it out ASAP upon confirming some of the details. Also, in an e-mail reply I received from Oreo, he mentioned that he didn't think it was 'TG' who leaked it. FWIW.
-Kevin
Insomniac
02-08-08, 10:36 PM
I'd like to see a follow-up for once about who the outside influences are everytime the possibility goes south. It's clear none of the owners will call them out. How about RM does.
Maybe the leak is not from those attempting to scuttle the negotiations, but instead from someone attempting to tip them in his favor.
Not that I have ever done anything like that. :tony:
This is not being played to create the strongest and best economic series possible.
In the end this does nothing to add a very viable ladder series
^^^
Short term thinker
Yep, but the question I'd love to know (again) is who the h=ll is leaking this stuff? TG, BB, GF, KK, or a "third party" (Foyt, Paulie Poledance, or even Haas) with malicious intent?
It's always been the IMS Ministry of Disinformation in the past. Does RM even have any hook-ups in CC anymore?
Doubt it.
Add Long Beach, Ed and Australia to this and there is still absolutely no reason to watch any of it. Take a long, hard look at this schedule.
http://www.indycar.com/schedule/schedule.php
Milwaukee, Indy and Watkins Glen thrill me. St Pete, Infineon and Mid Ohio get my interest. Ovals back on the schedule are a good thing in my eyes. :D
Eyes that are bleeding from the uglyness of the Dallara, however. :(
Schedule snag, media leaks lead to suspension of merger talks
By John Oreovicz
Special to ESPN.com
Updated: February 8, 2008, 7:38 PM ET
"Unfortunately, leaks and media reports about a possible unification of Champ Car and the Indy Racing League [IRL] have significantly hampered discussions," said series co-principals Gerald Forsythe and Kevin Kalkhoven. "Over the past three years, we have fielded and offered several proposals regarding unification of the two premier U.S.-based open-wheel racing series, but we have been unable to reach an acceptable solution. Discussions currently are at a standstill, and we therefore are proceeding with plans to continue as Champ Car."
SNAFU
Napoleon
02-09-08, 08:24 AM
Dear Lord, I don't check in for a couple of weeks and this happens!
Well I will not attend events for a combined series if it is to be what the stories say.
Bummer.
A big hello to everyone I used to know from the days of yore! :D ;)
Mary
Why its ex-Clevelander Mary. Your one of those people I wonder what happen to every once in a while.
Andrew Longman
02-09-08, 08:46 AM
Maybe the leak is not from those attempting to scuttle the negotiations, but instead from someone attempting to tip them in his favor.
Right. Assuming they know what they are doing (:tony: ) things get leaked for a reason. And RM dutifully printed them, though it would seem that RM probably ran too far too fast with his conclusions.
So who has more to gain at this moment? It would seem to me that announcing any possible merger, especially as constructed, but far more pressure on the CC side than anywhere else. It potentially is very disruptive and getting even one team to move over to slightly better terre firma threatens an already tenuous CC season.
If that happens TG doesn't have to worry about moving Motegi unless he really wants to run LB. He'll just pick up the scraps and he'll have his one series, albeit a ruined one, but he doesn't care.
As it stand though, RM seems to have gotten the story sliightly wrong. The sides have talked and have agreed one series would be better than two. OK, they said that two years ago. KK apparently said unless TG can get Motegi moved there is nothing to talk about for this year. That is not the same as saying move Motegi and we have a deal.
Bottom line here is the leak didn't end negotiations this time. There have been no meaningful negotiation and will not for this year unless Motegi gets moved.
Insomniac
02-09-08, 09:55 AM
Bottom line here is the leak didn't end negotiations this time. There have been no meaningful negotiation and will not for this year unless Motegi gets moved.
I'm not sure how you conclude this. Even ChampCar's statement makes it look like things were going on recently and now there are problems because of the leak.
"Unfortunately, leaks and media reports about a possible unification of Champ Car and the Indy Racing League [IRL] have significantly hampered discussions," said series co-principals Gerald Forsythe and Kevin Kalkhoven. "Over the past three years, we have fielded and offered several proposals regarding unification of the two premier U.S.-based open-wheel racing series, but we have been unable to reach an acceptable solution. Discussions currently are at a standstill, and we therefore are proceeding with plans to continue as Champ Car."
Kalkhoven reiterated those sentiments in an interview with ESPN.com.
"If people really want to see unification, the best thing to do is to leave it alone," he said. "It frustrates me because the parties are operating in good faith, and external influences prevent the transaction from taking place.
Who catches wind of this and can make things muddy? I assume it's someone on the IRL side. Does anyone wield enough power, or do they have TG's ear. But if they do, why is TG capable enough to exclude them but not capable enough to ignore them? How about some real investigative reporting (not a lame who's to blame article) on who these external influences are.
Amongst the finger-pointing, handwringing, pursing of lips, and "F"! <insertnamehere>, it's interesting how some people are being used like a $5 crackwhore on the Vegas strip.
There is a certain "HE CRIED WOLF AGAIN" vibe to this entire deal that renders a huge WGAF? to the whole thing. I suspect that many could care less one way or the other anymore. And that's just sad.
Nice to see some blast from the past folks here. Hi Mary! :wave:
Andrew Longman
02-09-08, 11:20 AM
I'm not sure how you conclude this. Even ChampCar's statement makes it look like things were going on recently and now there are problems because of the leak.
Who catches wind of this and can make things muddy? I assume it's someone on the IRL side. Does anyone wield enough power, or do they have TG's ear. But if they do, why is TG capable enough to exclude them but not capable enough to ignore them? How about some real investigative reporting (not a lame who's to blame article) on who these external influences are.
Read that KK quote again. He says outside interference has stalled this in the past and it would be best if people stayed out of it now. He also says there that there are no negotiations at the moment and says elsewhere there will be no talks unless Motegi gets moved. Motegi is the issue (for 08) not leaks. And he has said twice in the last few weeks that no deal has been presented or accepted.
Don't expect an investigative report. The few writers with an interest in reporting on AOW have no interest in ratting their sources. :D
Read that KK quote again. He says outside interference has stalled this in the past and it would be best if people stayed out of it now. He also says there that there are no negotiations at the moment and says elsewhere there will be no talks unless Motegi gets moved. Motegi is the issue (for 08) not leaks. And he has said twice in the last few weeks that no deal has been presented or accepted.
Don't expect an investigative report. The few writers with an interest in reporting on AOW have no interest in ratting their sources. :D
He could also be pulling a Slick Willy by parsing the meaning of the word the. :saywhat:
-Kevin
Insomniac
02-09-08, 12:49 PM
Read that KK quote again. He says outside interference has stalled this in the past and it would be best if people stayed out of it now. He also says there that there are no negotiations at the moment and says elsewhere there will be no talks unless Motegi gets moved. Motegi is the issue (for 08) not leaks. And he has said twice in the last few weeks that no deal has been presented or accepted.
Don't expect an investigative report. The few writers with an interest in reporting on AOW have no interest in ratting their sources. :D
The first part of the quote is about the most recent discussions and specifically says leaks and media reports have significantly hampered discussions. And the current impasse is Motegi. This is from recent discussions, not discussions from a year ago. If they are getting together, they want everyone at LB.
I don't expect much, but it would be nice to have these people who supposedly ruin a merger time and again unmasked.
Andrew Longman
02-09-08, 01:10 PM
Sorry, I don't read it that way at all.
"Over the past three years, ..." says to me that leaks have been a problem over time.
And he says they are currently not in negotiations and to think that a leak yesterday stopped it is not really plausible. He said they were not in negotiation a few weeks ago as well when Robin revealed TG had made an offer last Fall, so that leak didn't stop negotiations either.
Obviously they are talking. They said they talked Friday. But that's not negotiations. Saying there is no point in talking about getting together unless he can get the Motegi thing sorted is not negotiations.
But you see it differently. That's OK. :)
Do you remember Mark St., Dino, Rev Limiter from the Speedcenter forum?
Yep! Old days.....
Mary
RHR_Fan
02-09-08, 01:33 PM
A big hello to everyone I used to know from the days of yore! :D ;)
I'm an old refugee from the rec.alt.sports.indy, SpeedNut, SpeedCenter & Seventh Gear forums (in that order). I've posted here a few times (can count the times on one hand, probably). I do read this forum enough to keep track of what is going on with my beloved Champcar and I still watch some of the races (although not obsessively like I did 10-18 years ago). Not as many as I catch on YouTube, which just about says it all.
I know this merger (capitulation) is inevitable (even if it doesn't happen this time) and I suppose it may save American open wheel racing, but nothing in all these years has diminished my sheer and utter hatred for the IRL. I simply cannot abide that series and can't imagine myself watching it even with Champcar's (necessary for its survival) participation.
I grew up loving the Indy 500; haven't seen it since 1995 and the thought of watching it again makes me physically ill.....okay, not that bad, but I ain't watching it, LOL! Uck Findy!
I wanna cry...:cry: :cry:
I know that have to do this, but is sucks, sucks, sucks......
...and I still won't watch.
Mary
FittipaldiNut from Speedcenter and 7G! Good to see an old Speedcenter friend here.
Dear Lord, I don't check in for a couple of weeks and this happens!
Well I will not attend events for a combined series if it is to be what the stories say.
Bummer.
Why its ex-Clevelander Mary. Your one of those people I wonder what happen to every once in a while.
I didn't quite fall into the nothing hole. Actually, I read this forum a lot, but found the whole situation too sad to continue to post.
Mary
If I had a dime for every time "merger" talks have been scuttled because of a leak, I could bloody retire now rather than in six years, two months and eight days (yes, during my time away, I've gotten old).
My point? They are (both sides) using it as an excuse. I know they don't want this. As a Champcar fan, neither do I and as I said, I don't plan on watching a unified series. However, there are 300 million other people in this country, they need to try to win a few of them as fans. and it isn't going to happen if they keep taking the easy way out.
It isn't like they're all making more money than they can count and risk losing it if there are changes, is it?
Mary
FittipaldiNut from Speedcenter and 7G! Good to see an old Speedcenter friend here.
I remember! Gee, you must be in college or something by now! Wow!
Mary
Insomniac
02-09-08, 02:05 PM
Sorry, I don't read it that way at all.
"Over the past three years, ..." says to me that leaks have been a problem over time.
And he says they are currently not in negotiations and to think that a leak yesterday stopped it is not really plausible. He said they were not in negotiation a few weeks ago as well when Robin revealed TG had made an offer last Fall, so that leak didn't stop negotiations either.
Obviously they are talking. They said they talked Friday. But that's not negotiations. Saying there is no point in talking about getting together unless he can get the Motegi thing sorted is not negotiations.
But you see it differently. That's OK. :)
That second part was a follow-up quote though. I agree it has been a problem over time, but I think he also was saying it's a problem now. KK has been saying he and TG haven't talked for months. We now definitively know that is not true. He prefers people to think they are not talking. They keep coming back together and discussing, so it doesn't end them from good. It seems he would prefer, and feels, they need to limit all information to the people in the room. I think they are negotiating. I'd be surprised if the first thing they discussed was Motegi/LB. I'd presume (bad idea, I know) that they've ironed out a lot more details before that.
Racing Truth
02-09-08, 02:20 PM
Read that KK quote again. He says outside interference has stalled this in the past and it would be best if people stayed out of it now. He also says there that there are no negotiations at the moment and says elsewhere there will be no talks unless Motegi gets moved. Motegi is the issue (for 08) not leaks. And he has said twice in the last few weeks that no deal has been presented or accepted.
Don't expect an investigative report. The few writers with an interest in reporting on AOW have no interest in ratting their sources. :D
Not really picking on you Andy, BUTTTT KK said, 2 wks. ago, they hadn't even talked in months. That was a clear lie, no?
My question is this: Why do we believe much out of Kev's mouth?
Not really picking on you Andy, BUTTTT KK said, 2 wks. ago, they hadn't even talked in months. That was a clear lie, no?
My question is this: Why do we believe much out of Kev's mouth?
Noticed that too.
First it's disappointing. Second, he needs to clarify what he means at the very least. :shakehead
cameraman
02-09-08, 02:39 PM
Not really picking on you Andy, BUTTTT KK said, 2 wks. ago, they hadn't even talked in months. That was a clear lie, no?
My question is this: Why do we believe much out of Kev's mouth?
Just because KK had not talked to FTG in several months does not mean that their minions haven't been talking every damned day.
Andrew Longman
02-09-08, 02:45 PM
That second part was a follow-up quote though. I agree it has been a problem over time, but I think he also was saying it's a problem now.
Sorry can't go there from the way it is stated. The quote is attributed to BOTH KK and GF which is impossible unless they were singing in harmony. :) I take it RM was talking to both of them together and one person said one sentance and the other said the other. But its impossible to know.
KK has been saying he and TG haven't talked for months. We now definitively know that is not true.
It is? Perhaps they've talked in the past few weeks. That's pretty certain and no one is denying it. Did they talk between last Fall and a few weeks ago when RM put out the "chassis offer" column? If they did they didn't accomplish much towards an 08 consolidation if they didn't even get the Motegi conflict out of the way. Even TG said no one got back to him.
I think they are negotiating.
Define negotiating. Talking generalities about each sides' priorities and how something might work practically speaking is not negotiating.
Negotiation involves specific offers, counter offers and/or concessions. To my knowledge TG has never shown, going back the Houston meeting, that he gets that and is the root of why every merger effort has failed. He seems to think it is a matter of him asking and you showing due respect. It is also likely why he got hosed by the Frances and BE too.
Negotiation skill is becoming recognized as a core competency among executives and no longer just some bad-ass thing tough executives do.
Andrew Longman
02-09-08, 02:52 PM
Not really picking on you Andy, BUTTTT KK said, 2 wks. ago, they hadn't even talked in months. That was a clear lie, no?
Did they? What did they talk about? Certainly not about resolving the Motegi conflict. And TG said no one got back to him about the offer of free chassis and now it is too late.
My question is this: Why do we believe much out of Kev's mouth?
Because he doesn't mumble and what comes out of TG's mouth rarely makes any sense. :)
Seriously, if TG thinks that getting Motegi moved and giving away a few engines and chassis will magically bring the sides together for 08 he's smoking crack again. It is necessary, but nowhere near sufficient. And Homestead is only a little more than a month away.
Insomniac
02-09-08, 09:23 PM
Sorry can't go there from the way it is stated. The quote is attributed to BOTH KK and GF which is impossible unless they were singing in harmony. :) I take it RM was talking to both of them together and one person said one sentance and the other said the other. But its impossible to know.
That quote is from a statement they released in response to the latest merger story.
February 8, 2008
Statement from Kevin Kalkhoven & Jerry Forsythe, Champ Car co-owners:
Unfortunately, leaks and media reports about a possible unification of Champ Car and the Indy Racing League (IRL) have significantly hampered discussions. Over the past three years, we have fielded and offered several proposals regarding unification of the two premier U.S.-based open-wheel racing series, but we have been unable to reach an acceptable solution. Discussions currently are at a standstill, and we therefore are proceeding with plans to continue as Champ Car.
The next quote is from John O. that he got as a follow-up.
It is? Perhaps they've talked in the past few weeks. That's pretty certain and no one is denying it. Did they talk between last Fall and a few weeks ago when RM put out the "chassis offer" column? If they did they didn't accomplish much towards an 08 consolidation if they didn't even get the Motegi conflict out of the way. Even TG said no one got back to him.
The original merger story isn't that old. I have no problem with KK saying he hasn't talked to TG even if he has. I'm just saying, it seems they have been talking. I think you feel the Motegi conflict is near the top of the list. Like, if yoiu can't resolve that, there's no sense in discussing anything else. I believe that would be quite far down the list on things to figure out.
Define negotiating. Talking generalities about each sides' priorities and how something might work practically speaking is not negotiating.
Negotiation involves specific offers, counter offers and/or concessions. To my knowledge TG has never shown, going back the Houston meeting, that he gets that and is the root of why every merger effort has failed. He seems to think it is a matter of him asking and you showing due respect. It is also likely why he got hosed by the Frances and BE too.
Negotiation skill is becoming recognized as a core competency among executives and no longer just some bad-ass thing tough executives do.
We can play semantics if you want. :) Talking about merging and how it would work seem like negotiating to me. It may never work out, but I don't know what else to call it.
TravelGal
02-10-08, 05:13 AM
It could be that it was "leaked" to put pressure on Honda/Motegi. Who wants to be a roadblock to mergification? :tony:
As I've finally thrown in the towel on this one and begun the death watch, this is the conclusion I've reached. It was leaked to get Honda off the dime.
Who knows? I just know that I laughed out when it all came back to "it's Honda's fault." That seemed so simplistic. There are obviously a lot of things we don't know. What do know is something's afoot and I know I am not going to lke it. I wanted to bury my head in the sand for one more year.
Not really picking on you Andy, BUTTTT KK said, 2 wks. ago, they hadn't even talked in months. That was a clear lie, no?
My question is this: Why do we believe much out of Kev's mouth?
Exactly.
Spirited defenses, Andrew, but KK has not really been "with us" since the penguin parade. Last year at Long Beach he was no longer smiling. No matter how I tried during the whole season, I could not get the look on his face out of my mind. I was sure he had lost the fun. From then on, the disintegration accelerated. On the other side, heaven knows we can't take any quote from Toeknee as gospel, not even part of it.
This is like being in a tunnel with a train coming at you in the dark. You can hear it but you don't know how soon it is going to hit you. I'm glad we've all pretty much decided we would stay as a group here. There are quite a few I'd hate to lose track of, as happened with 7G.
I'll save the eulogies for later but I'm feeling pretty sad tonight.
Andrew Longman
02-10-08, 10:06 AM
Don't misunderstand me. I'm not really trying to be a homer for KK et al. There are too many things they've screwed up to defend.
I'm simply saying that taking comments and actions at face value, the process of putting this sport back together, to give the fans and other stakeholders the best, most profitable product possible has been royally screwed by TG. He doesn't much care about it turning out well and doesn't have a clue how to do it if he did.
I find it hard to blame KK if the "negotiations" make him look less than perfect because negotiatiing with TG is pretty mysterious (and KK has said so in more diplomatic terms)
I totally agree. :thumbup:
How long do you think natural terrain road courses were going to last with CCWS anyway? Laguna was going to be a ghost town this year, Portland was always on the ropes season to season. Cleveland will come back because it's such a great race. Road America can't be ignored either.
This year may suck, but I'm optimistic about the potential for a single series a couple years from now. As it stood with CCWS & the IRL and their spec cars and their 1 hour highlight shows, there was no hope. Now their is the hope of manufacturers slowly re-entering AOW racing, paying for good drivers & dragging in associate sponsors. A new formula will be created in a couple years, and the current s****boxes will be an ugly stain in the history books.
This needed to happen.
Mutual assured destruction the last 12 years, with fumbled opportunities by CC, while nascar continues to define auto racing in America is all we've seen. Even with one series there will be a battle and tg doesn't have the smarts to battle against the nascar monopoly for cubic dollars.
It's a shame for meaningful open wheel racing in North America, there's enough blame to go around to many parties within CC and outside of it. Power, greed and incompetence will do that I suppose but I wouldn't kill the messenger.
Andrew Longman
02-10-08, 01:16 PM
http://www.goldcoast.com.au/article/2008/02/11/7646_gold-coast-top-story.html
Most comprehensive and definitive reporting yet. Answers a lot about how this went down
Insomniac
02-10-08, 01:23 PM
http://www.goldcoast.com.au/article/2008/02/11/7646_gold-coast-top-story.html
Most comprehensive and definitive reporting yet. Answers a lot about how this went down
Interesting read. Guess we might be hearing more this week.
Sean Malone
02-10-08, 02:32 PM
Interesting read. Guess we might be hearing more this week.
This is the second time I've seen 24 as being the limit in drivers. Does this mean Tony/KK will drop their teams? If not, who is not being asked to dance?
Spicoli
02-10-08, 02:38 PM
This is the second time I've seen 24 as being the limit in drivers. Does this mean Tony/KK will drop their teams? If not, who is not being asked to dance?
Crap dude, half the cars have nothing but KK powah! :shakehead
I'll bet there's a big scene at th ebar, all the owners are there, hugging and embracing each other, forging new alliances, etc.
You really think D&R ran on spanser money? And Coyne? :rofl: ( just to name a vupple)
Insomniac
02-10-08, 02:42 PM
This is the second time I've seen 24 as being the limit in drivers. Does this mean Tony/KK will drop their teams? If not, who is not being asked to dance?
My thinking is that some teams won't be traveling overseas and a couple others won't be running without funding. I think you can assume everyone will get/have equipment. The 1.2M/car probably won't be paying for all the other expenses over the year. Maybe the tony bucks end (except if needed at Indy) and the Champ Car money is gone too. Then you are left with teams who have some real sponsorship money or owners who will pay out of their pockets. I hope Dale Coyne isn't gone if a merger happens.
EDwardo
02-10-08, 03:06 PM
This is the second time I've seen 24 as being the limit in drivers. Does this mean Tony/KK will drop their teams? If not, who is not being asked to dance?
When the IRL unveiled the team welfare fund they stated that the Hulman trust fund would only write 24 checks for the 2008 season. I would think that the 24 limit would be quickly discarded if there was an opportunity to field more than 24 teams.
Sean Malone
02-10-08, 04:14 PM
When the IRL unveiled the team welfare fund they stated that the Hulman trust fund would only write 24 checks for the 2008 season. I would think that the 24 limit would be quickly discarded if there was an opportunity to field more than 24 teams.
Would track pitstalls come into play with anything over 24?
Andrew Longman
02-10-08, 04:24 PM
When the IRL unveiled the team welfare fund they stated that the Hulman trust fund would only write 24 checks for the 2008 season. I would think that the 24 limit would be quickly discarded if there was an opportunity to field more than 24 teams.
I asked last week why the reports were clear on 24 cars. Why not more? I think you answered it. That's all TG is willing to pay. That's $28.8MM. He gets $15MM from ABC. That leave $13MM drained from I500 profits and other sources. He doesn't apparently think more cars are worth it. I would hope that a Coyne isn't axed in favor of Vision.
Spicoli
02-10-08, 04:43 PM
I asked last week why the reports were clear on 24 cars. Why not more? I think you answered it. That's all TG is willing to pay. That's $28.8MM. He gets $15MM from ABC. That leave $13MM drained from I500 profits and other sources. He doesn't apparently think more cars are worth it. I would hope that a Coyne isn't axed in favor of Vision.
so, who goes from CCWS?
NHL/RLR combo = 3
Unka Gerra = ?
PKV = ?
Conquest = ?
Walker = 2
DCR = ?
Gentilozzer = :laugh: / wgaf
net gain = 4 cars/8 cars ??? :yuck:
Andrew Longman
02-10-08, 05:14 PM
OK, I'll play,
NHL/RLR = Wilson, Rahal, RHR
FPCR= Tracy, Montagny (assuming he wants ovals)
Walker = Power (assuming he wants ovals)
Conquest = Perera (assuming he wants ovals)
Gentilozzi = Bernaldi (assuming he wants ovals)
Coyne = Junky
PKV = Servia
Minardi = Viso, Doornbas (assuming they want ovals)
PCM = Figge, Martinez (assuming he wants ovals)
AGR = Kanaan, Patrick, Mutoh, Andretti
TP = Helio, Brisco
CG = Wheldon, Dixon
Panther = Miera
Foyt = Manning
So that up to 24 there. All have sponsors, near sponsors, deep pockets, oval proven drivers and/or proven ability to somehow answer the bell
Add for Indy only or possibly a stretch run at a full season
D&R = Rice and Fischer
Roth = 1-2 cars
SAMAX = Duno
CG = Lloyd
What interesting there is the IRL really only has 10 somewhat firm cars and 2 of those are suspect and only three solid teams where as the joining CC teams and cars would outnumber the IRL entrants, And it is still not a lock to get to 33 for Indy
formulaben
02-10-08, 05:15 PM
My thinking is that some teams won't be traveling overseas and a couple others won't be running without funding. I think you can assume everyone will get/have equipment. The 1.2M/car probably won't be paying for all the other expenses over the year. Maybe the tony bucks end (except if needed at Indy) and the Champ Car money is gone too. Then you are left with teams who have some real sponsorship money or owners who will pay out of their pockets. I hope Dale Coyne isn't gone if a merger happens.
:thumbup: Yup, he's our Minardi. Err, was, or sumpi9n like that...:confused:
SAMAX = Duno
One would hope that Milkers won't be allowed back on the track again. Cripes even Judd was calling her out @ the end of last season. :saywhat: Otherwise rest of the list seems about right team wise. I just think that some of the F1 tester shoes may elect not to run ovals.
-Kevin
Andrew Longman
02-10-08, 06:32 PM
I just think that some of the F1 tester shoes may elect not to run ovals.
-Kevin
Right. Why would they?
Some bad ass racer may choose to just because he likes to go fast, but most are going to question how getting good on an oval will help them. And they will have to get good on an oval (in a crap car) to do get anywhere either in the IRL championship or in showcasing their skills.
Bottom line is all of these drivers have to believe that winning the I500 and the IRL championship will serve their careers or at least that they will be paid well to participate
Would track pitstalls come into play with anything over 24?
Also, two 747s only have room for 24, right?
As for the F1 testers, ovals aren't the only issue. The absence of a European swing is sure to depress interest.
Spicoli
02-10-08, 08:13 PM
OK, I'll play,
NHL/RLR = Wilson, Rahal, RHR
FPCR= Tracy, Montagny (assuming he wants ovals)
Walker = Power (assuming he wants ovals)
Conquest = Perera (assuming he wants ovals)
Gentilozzi = Bernaldi (assuming he wants ovals)
Coyne = Junky
PKV = Servia
Minardi = Viso, Doornbas (assuming they want ovals)
PCM = Figge, Martinez (assuming he wants ovals)
AGR = Kanaan, Patrick, Mutoh, Andretti
TP = Helio, Brisco
CG = Wheldon, Dixon
Panther = Miera
Foyt = Manning
So that up to 24 there. All have sponsors, near sponsors, deep pockets, oval proven drivers and/or proven ability to somehow answer the bell
Add for Indy only or possibly a stretch run at a full season
D&R = Rice and Fischer
Roth = 1-2 cars
SAMAX = Duno
CG = Lloyd
What interesting there is the IRL really only has 10 somewhat firm cars and 2 of those are suspect and only three solid teams where as the joining CC teams and cars would outnumber the IRL entrants, And it is still not a lock to get to 33 for Indy
dood, please passs the bong.
Andrew Longman
02-10-08, 08:53 PM
dood, please passs the bong.
Dude, don't kill my buzz. I'm very tubular :D
I asked last week why the reports were clear on 24 cars. Why not more? I think you answered it. That's all TG is willing to pay. That's $28.8MM. He gets $15MM from ABC. That leave $13MM drained from I500 profits and other sources. He doesn't apparently think more cars are worth it. I would hope that a Coyne isn't axed in favor of Vision.
Possibly, but remember this replaces the purse money, so I wonder if there is still room to come up with some more $.
Sean Malone
02-10-08, 09:59 PM
The crapwagons have paddle shifters...+1 for Champ Car drivers.
Insomniac
02-10-08, 10:41 PM
:thumbup: Yup, he's our Minardi. Err, was, or sumpi9n like that...:confused:
The guy has been so loyal to CC. It would just be kind of sad if he got screwed if a merger happens. He really comes across as a genuinely good guy.
stroker
02-11-08, 12:28 AM
http://www.goldcoast.com.au/article/2008/02/11/7646_gold-coast-top-story.html
Most comprehensive and definitive reporting yet. Answers a lot about how this went down
Is there anybody else who's wondering what will change "no earlier than 2010" that will make CC profitable? What revenue streams do they have that are going to increase, or what losses are they suffering that are going to decrease? :saywhat:
ferrarigod
02-11-08, 01:56 AM
i think it would be possible to merge the 2 series and end up with less in 1.
sing everything, burn down indy and start again by laying down bricks. nothing is going to solve the problems that ail. cept maybe ale itself.
ferrarigod
02-11-08, 02:05 AM
Possibly, but remember this replaces the purse money, so I wonder if there is still room to come up with some more $.
so does that mean they won't receive the tonyfare, just as champ car teams not getting their prize money? good for the goose is good for the gander.
extramundane
02-11-08, 09:53 AM
Looks like I picked the wrong weekend to disappear into the sticks without 'net access.
:headspins:
eiregosod
02-11-08, 09:58 AM
A merged series is going to be CART teams with Foyt and FTG's Vision racing.
What a way to spend 12 years :tony:
Methanolandbrats
02-11-08, 10:25 AM
A merged series is going to be CART teams with Foyt and FTG's Vision racing.
What a way to spend 12 years :tony: Foyt helped start all this **** because he did'nt like paddling around in the back of the CART field. Now he'll still be back there :rofl:
Sean Malone
02-11-08, 10:31 AM
A merged series is going to be CART teams with Foyt and FTG's Vision racing.
What a way to spend 12 years :tony:
So TG wins control, all the CART teams, introduces a junk car and drives sponsors away by the droves.
The future is bright. :rolleyes:
Andrew Longman
02-11-08, 10:33 AM
Now he'll still be back there :rofl:
Hasn't he been at the back of the IRL field for the last 9 years?
Methanolandbrats
02-11-08, 10:45 AM
Hasn't he been at the back of the IRL field for the last 9 years? Ya, getting rid of those complicated road courses did'nt seem to help much. :D Maybe it was'nt CART, maybe he's just a ****y car owner. :D
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