View Full Version : The Miller-KK Conspiracy meme
Racing Truth
02-13-08, 08:06 PM
As expressed by our Indy:
"Miller hates Gentilozzi and will say anything to defame him.
If the current deal KK is chasing is the sort of thing that Gentilozzi derailed, then you can thank him for not seeing Champ Car become extinct earlier"
This is a meme that really needs to be knocked down.
So, if I have this whole thing right, Miller and TG started this "talk" to destroy and end CC. Somewhere along the way (these past 3 wks.) KK, for underhanded and nefarious reasons, decided to flip too. GF & Poledance, in their infinite wisdom, saw through the ruse and are trying to save the day. Do I have that right?
Now ask yourself, knowing all involved, if that makes even a SLIVER of sense. I'm not seeing it.
Audi_A4
02-13-08, 08:08 PM
Dude who cares either way who is screwing who. I am a fan of open wheel racing. The CART of old is dead. We need one series at this point I dont care who wins we need the best teams and drivers. I say bring on a merger or takeover bring back one series.
Racing Truth
02-13-08, 08:12 PM
Dude who cares either way who is screwing who. I am a fan of open wheel racing. The CART of old is dead. We need one series at this point I dont care who wins we need the best teams and drivers. I say bring on a merger or takeover bring back one series.
I know it doesn't really matter, but this whole theory just bothers my logical sensibilities. Other than that, I'm inclined to agree.
BTW: Folks, any theory that involves Poledance as a good guy is automatically null and void.
Two separate memes.
1) Miller hates Gentilozzi. I think this one is obvious. He has made it clear in his columns and chats, repeatedly.
2) KK is chasing a deal with TG. I also think this is an obvious inference from the limited information that has slipped out, but it is not as rock solid as #1.
Your conclusions do not follow from what I have said.
I will say this. Gentilozzi takes a lot of heat on this and other forums. Maybe he deserves it, maybe he doesn't. I don't know the guy personally. But, if any of what we are hearing is true, it will be Gentilozzi and Pettit who convince Forsythe to stay in the game instead of taking the cowardly bankruptcy option Kalkhoven allegedly seeks in order to allow Tony George to cherry pick the assets of the series.
As you say, all speculation, and perhaps totally off base. We shall see.
Racing Truth
02-13-08, 08:22 PM
Two separate memes.
1) Miller hates Gentilozzi. I think this one is obvious. He has made it clear in his columns and chats, repeatedly.
2) KK is chasing a deal with TG. I also think this is an obvious inference from the limited information that has slipped out, but it is not as rock solid as #1.
Your conclusions do not follow from what I have said.
I will say this. Gentilozzi takes a lot of heat on this and other forums. Maybe he deserves it, maybe he doesn't. I don't know the guy personally. But, if any of what we are hearing is true, it will be Gentilozzi and Pettit who convince Forsythe to stay in the game instead of taking the cowardly bankruptcy option Kalkhoven allegedly seeks in order to allow Tony George to cherry pick the assets of the series.
As you say, all speculation, and perhaps totally off base. We shall see.
I think you also speculated that RM dropped the Gentilozzi bomb to deflect from what KK might be doing, thus tying it together.
1. Yes, everything he touches dies. SCCA, CC, Motorock, etc. ,,, was boys with him. I rest my case.
2. And why not? Look everyone lost this deal, but lets face it, if there is a "winner," it's TG, whether we like it or not. Kev knows this thing is dead, so he's being reasonable.
Dude who cares either way who is screwing who. I am a fan of open wheel racing. The CART of old is dead. We need one series at this point I dont care who wins we need the best teams and drivers. I say bring on a merger or takeover bring back one series.
I don't agree. Crapwagons in a season of toilet bowls and Tony's selected road courses? I'd rather see the whole thing swirl down one of Tony's toilet bowls.
Sean Malone
02-13-08, 08:32 PM
I think KK, GF and TG are playing the media. It's common knowledge that TG hates it when the media interferes with merger negotiations, so bogus news bits are leaked and a complete mergification announcement is made at Indy with the 3 of them on a dias in front of hundreds of reporters.
Ok, fantasy time over.
:)
RT:
I am not arguing that Gentilozzi is a good guy. I don't have a clue. But Miller did use him as a deflection and it is well known that he despises him, so I take it with a grain of salt.
Reasonable? We are talking about the alleged deliberate destruction of Champ Car, which is bad enough in itself, but done in such a way that "merger" would be replaced by surrender and in such a way that many stakeholders would be left financially harmed. Just to give himself a quick and painless out? Is that "reasonable?"
Are you a fan of Champ Car or "Kev?"
Dr. Corkski
02-13-08, 08:41 PM
I am sure Paulie Poledance wants to run things on Gesus Forsythe's dime for no other reasons than out of the goodness of heart and his undying love for Champ Car.
Racing Truth
02-13-08, 08:46 PM
RT:
I am not arguing that Gentilozzi is a good guy. I don't have a clue. But Miller did use him as a deflection and it is well known that he despises him, so I take it with a grain of salt.
Reasonable? We are talking about the alleged deliberate destruction of Champ Car, which is bad enough in itself, but done in such a way that "merger" would be replaced by surrender and in such a way that many stakeholders would be left financially harmed. Just to give himself a quick and painless out? Is that "reasonable?"
Are you a fan of Champ Car or "Kev?"
Champ Car IS ALREADY DEAD, whether all involved realize it or not. It still exists in name only.
Sean Malone
02-13-08, 08:56 PM
Champ Car IS ALREADY DEAD, whether all involved realize it or not. It still exists in name only.
I know a message board where Champ Car lives in perpetual heyday. I'll PM you the addy.
I agree champ car is dead. Champ Car is not.
Racing Truth
02-13-08, 09:12 PM
I agree champ car is dead. Champ Car is not.
:confused: :confused:
We both know the real deal is dead. As far as I am concerned it was on life support when they detuned the Cossies, and it died when they made spec racing SOP. You could argue that it died with the split, as that was the point at which a unified clear trail to THE championship disappeared.
Regardless Champ Car is a series that resembles CART, and we like it or not for our own reasons. That series hangs in the balance, but as of this moment it is not dead, or at least it is not announced as such. If I use capital letters I am referring to that series.
TravelGal
02-13-08, 09:40 PM
I am sure Paulie Poledance wants to run things on Gesus Forsythe's dime for no other reasons than out of the goodness of heart and his undying love for Champ Car.
You got the first part right. Right up to "dime."
Edit: Yes, I get the sarcasm of the second part.
Insomniac
02-13-08, 09:42 PM
CART started to die when Penske sold ISC to NASCAR. They started kicking CART out of ovals. They were critically wounded when Toyota, Honda, AGR, TCGR and Penske went to the IRL. Pook finished it off when he burned $100M in one season. Since then, the business model has been no different than TG propping up the IRL. And the majority of decisions have been just as brilliant as TGs. We've been hanging on to hope, and there's nothing wrong with that.
I (retrospectively) place championship racing's death at 2003. A necessary move at the time probably but that was when it became something less than what it was. 96-02 were still solid years despite the sliding car count and lack of Indy. Top notch teams, great formula and world class drivers. Oh, and even some real sponsors, even if they were paying less than market value thanks to Yen injections.
I will though treasure the memory in 2003 of seeing Johansson's crew gathered in the garage staring at their Reynards like they were UFOs after running up front at Mid-Ohio though.
Regardless Champ Car is a series that resembles CART, Disagree. CART had well-funded teams, star drivers, a variety of chassis/engine/tire manufacturers, ovals and road courses, and decent crowds/tv ratings. Champ Car: nope, nope, nope, nope, and nope. Put me in the column that would rather watch a unified series that would suck initially but might have the potential for ultimately not sucking than watch a series that sucks and shows absolutely no signs of no longer sucking in the short- or long-term future.
Put me in the column that would rather watch a unified series that would suck initially but might have the potential for ultimately not sucking than watch a series that sucks and shows absolutely no signs of no longer sucking in the short- or long-term future.
Why do you assume that Tony's series unrestrained by competition would start to suck less instead of more?
Why do you assume that Tony's series unrestrained by competition would start to suck less instead of more?
Could, not would. It could suck less. Let's face it, it already sucks less than it did in 1997. I'm not saying it's palatable. But it is the potential for improvement that I am looking at. I see none from the three amigos, err, stooges. Their series sucks more than it did when they took it over.
I (retrospectively) place championship racing's death at 2003. A necessary move at the time probably but that was when it became something less than what it was. 96-02 were still solid years despite the sliding car count and lack of Indy. Top notch teams, great formula and world class drivers. Oh, and even some real sponsors, even if they were paying less than market value thanks to Yen injections.
I will though treasure the memory in 2003 of seeing Johansson's crew gathered in the garage staring at their Reynards like they were UFOs after running up front at Mid-Ohio though.
The death started when they failed to run another US500 opposite Indy. They capitulated. They gave in and gave Tony his day in the sun rather than going for the jugular when they had the opportunity. They coddled and cajoled him and spent way too much time trying to negotiate a truce back into the brickyard vs building a series after Indy.
There's no two ways about it, Tony was out to have control of the OW racing series that ran at Indy from the day he was named President of the Speedway. He was in collusion with France and Bernie before the 1991 merger meetings had even happened. It was all known at the time. CART management never had the cajones to turn their back on Indy and move away even when they had the cars, stars, sponsors, manufacturers and teams.
While it was nice that the 3 amigos made the effort to keep the CART fires burning they really never stood a chance. Even Jesus would've had a hard time charting a new course for that series after the previous management buggled the opportunities it had.
Now we'll get to enjoy OW racing pre-CART style. Just the way the Hulmans like it. A weak pathetic racing series that drifts aimlessly around the 500 and the big party the Hulmans throw for themselves in May. The difference in this millenium is that those that really remember what Indy really meant don't care anymore and many others have no idea just how great OW racing was at one time in this country.
Dude who cares either way who is screwing who. I am a fan of open wheel racing. The CART of old is dead. We need one series at this point I dont care who wins we need the best teams and drivers. I say bring on a merger or takeover bring back one series.
Dood have you watched any of the irl twirllfests in the last few years?
In a word, "lame".
How is adding a few X-CC teams going to change anything but the car count? The only effect of that would be to dramatically increase the possibility that someone will get seriously hurt.
I can't wait. :tony:
The death started when they failed to run another US500 opposite Indy. They capitulated. They gave in and gave Tony his day in the sun rather than going for the jugular when they had the opportunity. They coddled and cajoled him and spent way too much time trying to negotiate a truce back into the brickyard vs building a series after Indy.
Spot on!
miatanut
02-14-08, 01:03 AM
Disagree. CART had well-funded teams, star drivers, a variety of chassis/engine/tire manufacturers, ovals and road courses, and decent crowds/tv ratings. Champ Car: nope, nope, nope, nope, and nope. Put me in the column that would rather watch a unified series that would suck initially but might have the potential for ultimately not sucking than watch a series that sucks and shows absolutely no signs of no longer sucking in the short- or long-term future.
:thumbup:
I'm among the majority here who despise TG.
Sad truth is, at this point Champ Car (capital letters), is just delaying the necessary process of rebuilding open wheel. I find it very difficult to believe, after these last few years, that if ALL the teams weren't on the same side again, and the public no longer had the confusion of two competing series, that the teams and the manufacturers wouldn't go toe to toe with Tony again to get their fair share of the pie.
As long as everything is fractured, that can't happen.
I'm just saying that 2003 was when it definitively changed from what it had been. I'm no 30 year veteran fan of the sport as I'm not even 30 yet but I'm not a guest of Mr. Rourke and Tatoo either that has been a fan for such a short time that I see Nelson Phillipe as a legend.
I also met Travis MB for the first time at turn 2 at Mid-Ohio in 2003. I didn't make it over to the paintball target practice though.
TravelGal
02-14-08, 02:26 AM
I agree with you Easy. In fact, I wrote several times then and since then, as people were b!tching and moaning about the state of the sport that we would look back on that year and 2004 as "the good old days." At least it was for me.
Why do you assume that Tony's series unrestrained by competition would start to suck less instead of more?
Agreed, there's plenty to point at throughout the years coming from 16th & Georgetown going back to 1946 that leaves one shaking their head. After this cluster is over, tg's hubris will intensify.
robot9000
02-14-08, 11:06 AM
We both know the real deal is dead. As far as I am concerned it was on life support when they detuned the Cossies, and it died when they made spec racing SOP. You could argue that it died with the split, as that was the point at which a unified clear trail to THE championship disappeared.
Regardless Champ Car is a series that resembles CART, and we like it or not for our own reasons. That series hangs in the balance, but as of this moment it is not dead, or at least it is not announced as such. If I use capital letters I am referring to that series.
You may want to be more selective in the use of that sentence. :)
Agreed, there's plenty to point at throughout the years coming from 16th & Georgetown going back to 1946 that leaves one shaking their head. After this cluster is over, tg's hubris will intensify.
I don't think there was any conspiracy, but I've always said that Robin is as stuck in Gomerville as anyone at Track Forum.
My guess is that after Tony George is given what he wants, Gomerville 500 winners will continue to migrate to NASCAR, even evil foreigners won't be interested any more, and the IRL will be what Champ Car is: a club sport.
What happens after that? CART, the sequel, if we are lucky. Most likely, nothing happens, and the Gomerville 500 becomes a NASCAR event.
opinionated ow
02-14-08, 06:57 PM
How hard would be it be to get rid of Tony? Surely the CIA could arrange it.....
I vote for the Mossad....:)
opinionated ow
02-14-08, 07:59 PM
I vote for the Mossad....:)
Use NCIS then...Ziva works for both:rofl:
TravelGal
02-14-08, 08:00 PM
Use NCIS then...Ziva works for both:rofl:
Beat me to it!
Use NCIS then...Ziva works for both:rofl:
Ziva's hot!! :p
But the actress is actually Columbian.
Ziva's hot!! :p
But the actress is actually Columbian.
No one burning incense in memory of Caitlin "Kate" Todd, played by Sasha Alexander? :cry:
pferrf1
02-15-08, 03:31 PM
No one burning incense in memory of Caitlin "Kate" Todd, played by Sasha Alexander? :cry:
Thats worth doing.
FCYTravis
02-19-08, 04:28 PM
I also met Travis MB for the first time at turn 2 at Mid-Ohio in 2003.
:cry: Driver's left exit of the Keyhole.
I didn't make it over to the paintball target practice though.
Oh, that will live in infamy... :laugh:
Revel in the good times, for they shall last forever in our memories.
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