Something to Ponder

[DjDrOmusic]

I think the majority who post here, agree that while there has been serious mistakes made by CART since 1996, the action of Tony George and his powertrip, have been far worse, and now threaten to destroy completely, the one thing that we all followed for years. The propaganda campaign that is being waged by TG's minions has even the IRL faithful questioning him and his Vision part 233. Last year, IMHO, Pook scored a major victory by calling out TG for constantly breaking the olive branch. It made many fans who were still on the fence realize that CART was not the evil monster portayed by the lemming faithful. Today, although things are far from being solidly fine, CART, under Pook's leadership, is poised to take the stage as the only standing open wheel series based in North America, again IMHO. My question is, should Pook, publicly in front of the press, hold out another olive branch to TG and offer to rescue his one race, JUST THE ONE RACE? This could serve several purposes, but the one reason I would consider this would be another Pook public relations coup. Pook could say something to the fact that CART has been around and isn't going anywhere, but that the 500 has now been damaged. CART would be willing to help try and undo the damage, however if the offer is ignored or turned down, they will move forward with a full schedule during the month MAY in 2004, including a race Memorial Day weekend.
Before all the ones who never want to merge with the IRL start screaming, please realize that I am not saying merge with the IRL, I'm saying an offer to help restore the 500 to a shadow of it's former glory, which it isn't anymore. As much as I dislike TG and what he has done, I have to admit that I feel anger, outrage and sadness to see the race that made a lot of us fans in it's death throws.

[RaceGrrl]

No. We have to move on. Let the Indycentrics follow the IRL, CART needs to go its own way. I think Indy will never again be what it was, and if there is to be an offer of an olive branch, it must come from TG. Even then, if hell freezes over and that actually happens, I don't know that it's the best thing for CART. I've seen others mention that they think Indy will eventually be run in the tin-tops. Sadly, I agree.

[SteveH]

As long as Tony has Indy there will be an irl.

[Chief]

No, we don't owe anyone anything now. I reference the 2002 law handed down by TG restricting chassis manufacturers from supplying "rival" series with similar or identical chassis. It was this which turned my stomach on the the Indy 500 since, it all could have been fixed then.

Pook was right, the knickers were down and there were no takers. So, we move in our own direction now and any desire to save the former crown jewel must be DIRECTLY from TG, and that declaration must be in a public forum as well. No hammers, no I Don't Know's, just admission of failure and denial. Then we can move forward with this sport. Sad to think that when the 500 needs it's leader the most it's apparent he just doesn't care. All our fears have come to true about TG. It's a damn shame.

[Gurneyflap]

No. "I'm leadin' an army. The people are my army and an army don't compromise! It battles to extinction!"....Pres. Andrew Jackson. And what do you propose the IRL do? Any unilateral action for any reason would be absurd. I feel your pain for lost history and tradition, (They've been sold to Japan) but blame has been clearly and accurately placed and noted.

[RaceChic]

Screw the Indy500......As much as I regret the state it has in and the deterioration of the tradition and history, we need to carry on now. I say we (CART) schedule a race on Memorial Day weekend anyway.... Chris Pook was very smart for limiting the ability of CART's drivers/teams being able to participate in the full three weeks of Indy. He didn't completely eliminate the possibilities of CART participating. Just limited it enough to see if the Indy500 could be "great" on its own without the CART people. If they think they don't need us, the let 'em be on their own. Look what they are doing to themselves already and CART hasn't even shedulded events on every weekend in May, just limited the days CART folks could be there.
That in of itself proves enough of a point. The damage is being done and it's NOT even by CART. Someone on the lemming boards stated once that "at least Tony George didn't schedule races on the weekend of your race".... That hasn't been done.....yet......... And how do we owe them a sweet thing? They don't want us but God forbid we schedule a race on the sacred Indy500 dates or during the precious three weeks of Indy.......
As far as I'm concerned, F*** them....Looks good on 'em....... Oh yeah, I almost forgot......F*** Tony George!!!!!!!! :rofl: :laugh: :rofl: :laugh: :rofl:

[JLMannin]

No way. TG had his chance at reunification, and told CART to shove their olive branch where the sun doesn't shine.

Hold him accountable for his tantrum and pander to him no longer. Let IMS be covered in sand dunes for all I care. That race and that speedway meant so much to me pre-1996, but the point multiplier / 25-8 rule power play of 1996 ruined it for me.

If TG were struck and killed by a meteorite, it would make little difference now. The awesomeness of the 500 has been utterly destroyed, and can never be rebuilt in my fifetime. He has screwed the pooch big time, and should be left to fester in his own puss and feces.

[Tim]

Unification is a horrible idea. We'd have to go the whole month of may with only 1 race. Plus we'd be stuck with more ovals.

[scanman]

"Something to Ponder"...not to me..screw em..not interested at all...

That "league" has nothing for me..why merge.??? what can they give

that CART can use...maybe 1 or 2 drivers, but thats it...imo..

ok...... maybe a sponsor or 3.... ;)

[cart7]

It's too bad compromise won't work as long as TG is in charge at IMS. I blame it on arrogant stupidity becuase he's really F'd things up this time. His attempt to sink Cart by luring T & H into the earl, along with some high profile teams that came with them, by relaxing the lease rules and throwing words like,"we might start looking into a couple road courses", has blown up in his face. It's so ironic that the evil engine leases, that would create a situation of short fields in the 500, have come to fruition in the very league formed to save the 500 from them.

Tony is clueless as he's been from the start. His blase attitude about not doing anything to secure the traditional 33 car starting grid is scary. I'm wondering if Carts failure to roll over and die has caused complacency to set in. T & H, Roger, Cheap, Mikey, Fred Nation and just about anyone else with a half baked idea will be pitching it at Tony. I'm predicting irl will ultimately be run by the engine manufacturers and their chosen teams by next year. Roads and streets? The scary part would be, TG selling completely out to cause complete capitulation of Cart next year if Pook becomes vulnerable due to cash flow (we've seen how easily he sold his loyalist down the road with the leases). TG, run by his new puppet masters, makes bids for premium Cart road and street venues and Pook can't fight back due to lack of cash. Something to think about.

[DjDrOmusic]

I honestly think that Pook would have TG in a compromising position, one where the month of May would be the week of May. I never said merge or re-unify, that is one thing that should not be considered IMHO. And just so you know I haven't completely lost my senses F---TG and his league. I guess it's just hard for me to see what was once the Greatest turned into a laughing stock. But now that I've actually had time to let the coffee sink into my brain, I humbly ask for a swift kick in the behind for even considering it.;)

[scanman]

cart7...I agree...:thumbup:

[JLMannin]

Cart7 said:

I'm predicting irl will ultimately be run by the engine manufacturers and their chosen teams by next year. Roads and streets? The scary part would be, TG selling completely out to cause complete capitulation of Cart next year if Pook becomes vulnerable due to cash flow (we've seen how easily he sold his loyalist down the road with the leases). TG, run by his new puppet masters, makes bids for premium Cart road and street venues and Pook can't fight back due to lack of cash. Something to think about.

It is clear to all now that the sole purpose of spawning the irl was to kill CART. Restoring open wheel racing, preserving tradition, it was all a way to capture the "place fan" fan base.

Going after premium CART venues is the next logical step in the mercurial plan (oterwise known as The Vision) to kill CART.

The collateral damage may be the 500 and the irl itself, but at least mutually assured destruction is not a CART victory*

*latest Vision update

[Don Quixote]

What Cart 7 said. There is no point in talking to them. You might as well bang your head against a wall. Face it, TG and IMS have no use for road racing, and the feeling is mutual.

[RTKar]

CART is not in a position of strength, if and when that time comes, I would certainly consider it but I think things have to get worse yet at 16th and Georgetown.The pockets their are deep and the hole CART is in may be even deeper. What we have now is an absolute mess.

[Dr. Corkski]

You can't afford to worry about "rescuing" another series when you are already dipping into your own to keep yourself alive.

[nrc]

CART still has a big challenge ahead getting to the point where they're financially viable. Pook is working hard to instill confidence that they can make it. Every time CART has held out an olive branch it has been seen as a sign of weakness and thrown back in their face. That's the last thing CART needs right now.

[Lizzerd]

I'm with the majority on the original question. Let TG, his crown jewel, and his series wither. If there is any capitulization, let it be TG, and let it happen on CART's terms. Make the Idiotgrandson grovel. Granted, CART is not in the position to force this scenario, but I see a brighter future in our series at the moment than the other one.

I believe too that it's possible that this "man's" ego might get in the way and he could continue in his evil ways and let all OW racing die in NA before admitting defeat.

[Kate]

Not for a New York Minute. The only life raft they have left is the IRL 500 and it's taking on water rapidly. Drop some more big rocks on it, I say -- make sure that NO CWS drivers can enter that series at all. Perhaps make them forfeit points if they go. At any rate make it morally disgusting for them to "do it" with that crowd.

Once they collapse completely, CART might offer to buy the place. But me, I'd buy it and close it down. That would make his humiliation complete.

[doppelganger]

I would have to agree with the majority of the posts.

No.

Tony George made his bed, let him lie in it. The Indy 500 will never be the race it once was. I remember when the Memorial Day weekend race meant something. I never saw it in person, but was glued to the TV. Now it means nothing.

CART does not need it to be successful. It's time to look ahead, not behind.

[RaceChic]

Originally posted by DjDrOmusic
But now that I've actually had time to let the coffee sink into my brain, I humbly ask for a swift kick in the behind for even considering it.;)

I'll do it!!!!! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

[flobee1kenobi]

When I was little, I read a lot of books about how innovative the 500 was, as far as the types of machines that would try to qualify for the race. You could see people bring in modified sprint cars, others custom building their own cars, and factory teams from all over the world.The engines that were used ranged from Lotus 4bangers,to dragster style V8's with sidepipes and blowers, to jet turbines.I think those days can return, but not with TG at the helm! Only after he goes away will that be the greatest spectacle in sports again.

[racer2c]

Over the last year, with CART coming to the brink of non-existence, I was reminded over and over again by the IRL faithful that Tony would never embrace CART because CART has nothing to offer him or his series. He won. The media claimed he won. Fans where claiming the victory. It was all but over.

My how a few months change things and outlooks. CART is still a thorn in Tony's side and still a competitor. Tony is on the verge of not making the hallowed 33. That wouldn't be a problem if CART teams were there. Tony's series is in direct competition with sponsors for side-pods, races etc.

So, any rational thinking person would see the two paths that lie ahead. One is to maintain your present course. Last year there were many CART jumpers. The rest could come over next year. Indy's ratings and attendance will rise. It takes time to build. Hey, it's Indy after all!

Or on the other hand, CART dug in their heals and is making a statement. The CART teams remaining don't have Indy on their mind so you won't get the jumpers. The sponsors CART has seem to have a different outlook on a based on a NAFTA model instead of a one big race model.

Ever since the split Tony, the media and many fans said CART needed Indy more than Indy needed CART. Personally, I think that's changing.

[Jag_Warrior]

CART's biggest error until very recently (IMO) was always asking Tony, "OK, so what do YOU want to do?" CART put him in the driver's seat - now it's his to screw up (and he will - I have "faith" in overprivileged Richie Rich boys). But he's going to kill the entire sport if it's left up to him.

When I read that CART considered taking out splashy ads after the first Battle of Indy (aka "The Bloodless Slaughter at 16th & Georgetown"), but decided against it... didn't want to brag, I lost SO MUCH respect for CART. Maybe I'm warped, but that's not how I see things. CART didn't start the fight, but some of its teams took it to Indy (following Leo Mehl's dare) and spanked some major hiney - talk about a humiliating public beating. OK, so maybe they didn't need to pull an Ali and talk about Tony's mom, as the IRL was falling to the canvas that day - but silence???!!! Was Ali the Greatest of All Time? I don't know, but he said he was. And as best I can remember... well, I don't remember. But I guess I'll take his word for it, since no one else has had much to say.

If CART refused to market the success and superior talent of its drivers, I guess some companies looked at that and figured, "they can't help themselves, so what could they possibly do for us?!"

[DjDrOmusic]

Originally posted by RaceChic
I'll do it!!!!! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

How did I know it would be you? ;) :rofl: :rofl:

[Simple Norm]

:gomer: Hi
The only time I had an interest in the Indy 500 was in 1965, when a little Scot named Jim Clark and an English man named Colin Chapman; had the audacity to bring a green car (green thought to be unlucky) with a 4 sp gear box and the Engine on the wrong end of the car.

The rookie won in very convincing fashion. If he had not, I think Indy would still have ft engine, anythine but green,cars. But T G would have gotten rid of the Offy engine (a little too advanced for him);)

Indy 500 has allways been very conservative, uncomplicated racing for easly entertained Fans
I really don't think they are in compition with CART, they compete for the NASCAR fan and NASCAR will beat them.

[Lizzerd]

1965 was thereabouts the time I started taking a real interest in Indy and racing too.

But... Jim Clark was a rookie in 1963, won in 1965, and should have won in 1966.

[racer2c]

Originally posted by Simple Norm
:gomer: Hi


Indy 500 has allways been very conservative, uncomplicated racing for easly entertained Fans
I really don't think they are in compition with CART, they compete for the NASCAR fan and NASCAR will beat them.

One: Nascar fans don't care, and NASCAR have already beaten them.

Two, say what you will about the simplicities of oval racing, when the turbos were at the brickyard it was anything but conservative, unless 245mph in a draft is conservative. I think the survivors of the hero who lost their lives at the brickyard think it conservative.

For easily entertained fans? Now I know your not an 'murican. You're among the biggest Champ Car fans that exist, but when they ran Indy, it was our day.

[Simple Norm]

Thank you RACER2C.
I agree with almost everything you said, except for the speed stuff, sorry you didn't see it that way.

Whats the ratings for Bonnevile?

[Simple Norm]

Lizzerd, you have a wonderfull memory, or a very good file system.

I'm a recent addition here so let me explain how I feel about the Indy 500: I don't like it, never have. I'm origenally from the Rocky Moutain area, at a time when there were no freeways. I like changes in elevation, I like tight turns and I like sweepers and then stand on the brakes for a hairpin.

The Indy 500 has allways behaved as though as though ignorance were a vertue. They have usally shuned any tech break-thru If it came from outside the USA.

They do have mass mkt appeal..... Nothing that appeals to the masses is the worst in its catagory: nor is it ever the best.

[RaceChic]

I think Simple Norm ain't so simple................:D
One question before it's final though...... What do ya think of Tony George???:gomer: