View Full Version : So what do you hope for... or do you have any?
Rogue Leader
02-26-08, 09:18 AM
I'll admit it right here. The prospect of a open wheel series with 31 cars (as per the other post about this morning's meeting), no matter how much the cars suck is interesting and a bit tantalizing to me. I feel like there is a chance of things going the right way here (and also unfortunately because of TG plenty of chances to go wrong).
So what do I hope for? Firstly everyone to make it through the season without injury. Secondly, the IRL does need a new formula, and the Panoz is already built, set and ready to go, Cosworth has the engines, and Honda has them as well mothballed, so a Panoz Turbo V8 formula for 2009 or 2010 with two different engine manufacturers is NOT an impossibility.
I also hope the teams stick with it, and the smaller teams don't fold. I hope PT sticks it to everyone and takes the Indy 500 again. I just hope this is a step in the right direction so that the young guys coming up from Karts/Skip Barber/etc have an open wheel place to go and don't end up DNPQing for cab races for the rest of their lives.
I'm probably too much of an optimist.
JLMannin
02-26-08, 12:46 PM
Hope and faith are two different things to me. Hope is wishing that something will happen; faith is beleiving that it will happen. That said, I hope for the following:
I hope that everyone that has paid money for a 2008 Champcar race that will not take place gets their money back.
I hope that everyone driver that competes in the 2008 season comes out the other end undamaged.
I hope that enough cars show up at each 2008 race to bump all of Foyts cars out of each race so that I can read all the foytility threads here at OffCamber.
I hope that in 10 or years when my oldest son 16, we will actually want to go to the Indy 500 (Hope springs eternal).
31 crapwagons are still crapwagons. The number only increases the odds for the grater.
I hope for manufacturer interest as soon as possible. Battling, spending factories will solve most of the problems.
datachicane
02-26-08, 01:34 PM
Not if they're battling in crapwagons on cookie cutters like Toyota and Honda did.
I hope something worth watching evolves out of this in 3-4 years, but I'm not holding my breath. I'm tired enough of holding my nose and watching the spec exhibition that my favorite series turned into, in the vain hope that it was just a temporary setback.
In twelve years I've only managed to sit through a grand total of around ten minutes of IRL broadcasts. The reasons won't evaporate just because NHL and Forsythe jumped ship.
Sounds like I need to be checking out the WRC webcasts. Pretty f'in sad.
Not if they're battling in crapwagons on cookie cutters like Toyota and Honda did.
As you know, the only reasons they were on so many cookie cutters was: 1.) they started out with an oval series, and 2.) they tried to partner with NASCAR in order to leach off the NASCAR fans with mandatory ticket packs.
It's become obvious, even to TG, that the remaining open wheel fans don't want a majority of ovals.
The crapwagon part won't be solved by manuf.'s though, I agree. A good car will rely on good management by (hopefully) a good technical committee. We'll see in a couple years, I guess.
Sean Malone
02-26-08, 01:46 PM
Not if they're battling in crapwagons on cookie cutters like Toyota and Honda did.
I hope something worth watching evolves out of this in 3-4 years, but I'm not holding my breath. I'm tired enough of holding my nose and watching the spec exhibition that my favorite series turned into, in the vain hope that it was just a temporary setback.
Just playing the devils advocate for a second, but Champ Car had been spec for four or five years.
I need to see a pattern of good decision making from IndyCar.
I need to see an attractive car with engines that do it justice.
I need to see a formula that puts the having skill back into the drivers hands. NOT high downforce momentum racing.
I need to see diverse tracks at real venues like Road America and Laguna, NOT NASCAR style five turn Sears Point/Watkins Glen.
Then, maybe, MAYBE, I'll start to follow it again. But that's a lot to ask and knowing Tony's history...it's a pipe dream.
Don Quixote
02-26-08, 01:56 PM
31 crapwagons are still crapwagons. The number only increases the odds for the grater. Time to buy stock in carbon fiber and ear plug manufacturing. :laugh:
TravelGal
02-26-08, 02:01 PM
I'm probably too much of an optimist.
Ya think?
Said cynically because I have no hope. Except that I hope YOU are correct.
I hope that the new series will be a good product with a field full of well funded teams and paid professional drivers and that someone gets some people to turn around this liquidity crisis. Til then I'll keep closely following F1 and invest overseas, mainly in foreign road racing devils. I think they will figure in IndyCars Vista.
Honestly, I don't care who runs it anymore. I just want 22+ good teams and quality drivers and I'll give them some time to really get there. I'm not interested in watching GP2 washouts wanking around in good rides or Milka Duno endangering other drivers. If I wanted those things I'd go to a PCA meeting.
No hope here either.
Those of you hoping the next generation crapwagon will be more to your liking are I think forgetting an important point. Crapwagons were designed to run well at one track. The only track that matters to :tony: . Why would the next version be any different?
No hope here either.
Those of you hoping the next generation crapwagon will be more to your liking are I think forgetting an important point. Crapwagons were designed to run well at one track. The only track that matters to :tony: . Why would the next version be any different?
There's more to the history of Indycar racing than the last 12 years. They were racing Indy-specific cars on road courses long ago, as well as relatively recently. The difference now, in my opinion, is that everyone knows that a good mix of short ovals, superspeedways, road courses & street courses is what the fans want. Even that jackass TG said as much Sunday night. Do you really think a new car formula will ignore road/street courses?
cameraman
02-26-08, 02:18 PM
31 crapwagons are still crapwagons. The number only increases the odds for the grater.
I find it amazing that Tony George is going to financially carry more than two dozen cars for the five races between now and June 1. I find it even harder to believe that he will continue that level of outlay for an entire season.
KaBoom21
02-26-08, 02:19 PM
I hope speedgear.com doesn't run out of all the Champ Car gear before my order is shipped.
The difference now, in my opinion, is that everyone knows that a good mix of short ovals, superspeedways, road courses & street courses is what the fans want. Even that jackass TG said as much Sunday night. Do you really think a new car formula will ignore road/street courses?
not disagreeing with you, but I gotta ask, do you think that it's possible for FTG to make some dumb calls, even when "everyone knows" what the right thing to do is?
not disagreeing with you, but I gotta ask, do you think that it's possible for FTG to make some dumb calls, even when "everyone knows" what the right thing to do is?
Of course, but I also think he goes along with what people around him say. I doubt he had much of a hand in the current car spec or design, but he's captain of the IRL ship and he's ultimately responsible for the current mess. I'm hoping there's a different crew around him handling things next time around. Tony Cottman comes to mind.
Insomniac
02-26-08, 02:46 PM
I simply hope to see a return to pre-split CART and the CART right after the split (with the Indy 500 now). That basically means, good sized grids, engines that sound good, cars that look good, engine wars, chassis wars, nicely painted cars and a fair mix of tracks (aim for 1/2 ovals and superspeedways and 1/4 permanent road courses and 1/4 temporary/street/airport circuits). A tire war would be nice too. :)
Racing Truth
02-26-08, 03:11 PM
not disagreeing with you, but I gotta ask, do you think that it's possible for FTG to make some dumb calls, even when "everyone knows" what the right thing to do is?
Absolutely, but I've always thought that one reason FTG didn't use a more CART-like formula was just to say, "Look at us, we're different." That, and the original formula was designed by true believers.:gomer:
Those things no longer apply.
I back up Rogue's hopes (though if they really get 30, I'll be stunned). I also hope Milky doesn't kill anyone this yr.
I hope PT and Marco keep finding each other on the track (h=ll, maybe off too).
I hope we learn more about Graham (can he handle the ovals better than young Andretti?) this yr. I hope J. Wilson wins one this yr.
EDIT: Bumping at Indy
And more...
I'm still hoping for a copter crash. :tony:
-Kevin
Sean Malone
02-26-08, 03:25 PM
Those things no longer apply.
I also hope Milky doesn't kill anyone this yr.
I hope Cotman pulls her license. She has no busniess out there.
I hopes Danica wins Indy so Mergermaina and Danicamania can combine and blow the top off this here coiled Snake/jet fighter filled gymnasium we calls the IRL. yessir, that's a fact. :thumdown: :gomer:
I'm not concerned with what could be, only what is. For now it's FAIL.
Sean Malone
02-26-08, 03:48 PM
I hopes Danica wins Indy so Mergermaina and Danicamania can combine and blow the top off this here coiled Snake/jet fighter filled gymnasium we calls the IRL. yessir, that's a fact. :thumdown: :gomer:
I'm not concerned with what could be, only what is. For now it's FAIL.
My birthday is coming up. I can't decide if I want a Danikca tee shirt and a Milka hat, or a Milka hat and a Danika tee shirt. Damn, this mergification is making me me face tough decisions. :D
miatanut
02-26-08, 04:22 PM
I hope the teams find their balls, demand a 50% stake in running the show, and succeed. Then, there would be hope of a schedule full of healthy venues, not a schedule of neglected venues in service to a single venue.
I find it amazing that Tony George is going to financially carry more than two dozen cars for the five races between now and June 1. I find it even harder to believe that he will continue that level of outlay for an entire season.
Its all part of a diabolical plot by Mr. George. He's taken a page from the Gillette marketing campaigns of the past. Give away the razor and they will come back to buy the blades. Year after year after year. Its actually quite ingenious. He knows that very few teams will be able to make it through the season with only two cars, let alone the Month of May®. Once a tub gets grated or merely just flies off course into an infield retaining wall, he'll be standing at the ready with a parts list. All prices will be inflated to a level that would make Carl Haas blush. Give away two cars to sell 3 more.
Brilliant!!!
cameraman
02-26-08, 04:48 PM
There isn't a single sponsor between the lot of them. They have no money to buy a thing or pay a sole. Jacking up the prices when he is paying the bills seems kinda silly.
oddlycalm
02-26-08, 05:05 PM
not a schedule of neglected venues in service to a single venue. That's been the Hulman/George modis operandi since the 1950's, so I'm thinking that may be a long shot... :D
The centerpiece of this new agreement is that the i500 will be the marque event of the series now and forever. That actually got said on Wind Tunnel last Sunday. A lot of people will miss the significance of that.
oc
miatanut
02-26-08, 05:48 PM
That's been the Hulman/George modis operandi since the 1950's, so I'm thinking that may be a long shot... :D
The centerpiece of this new agreement is that the i500 will be the marque event of the series now and forever. That actually got said on Wind Tunnel last Sunday. A lot of people will miss the significance of that.
oc
Yes. That's why the teams finding their balls is the only hope. They are not bound to this agreement. The competitor agreement probably says something to that effect, so technically they are agreeing to it, but if they say 'fix it or we walk', he doesn't have a lot of options. The world has now seen how well he runs a series. :irked:
The centerpiece of this new agreement is that the i500 will be the marque event of the series now and forever.
oc
What's wrong with that?
IRL's new merger slogan: Boot and Rally!
definition: v. drink lots, blow the chunks, come to and drink some more
seems to fit. :yuck: --> :\ --> :gomer:
miatanut
02-26-08, 08:39 PM
What's wrong with that?
It means the rest of the schedule will be under-promoted, neglected, pathetic excuses for races so that the one venue will stand proud above all.
In other words, LB, TO, Surfers, and maybe Cleveland will be allowed to die on the vine. We can't let any of them getting strong enough they might rival "the only race that really matters."
CART II? Hardly! :thumdown:
After seeing TG and KK on Windtunnel, I actually feel a little (tiny) bit of hope. First of all Kalkhoven said "we" a lot. Okay, sure, I'm certain he'll be around temporarily as a consultant - if only to help manage the relationships he's built up with the venues that are being taken over by IndyCar - as well as those who are not immediately on the schedule. But I'm anxious to hear about the relationship between Cosworth, PI, and Aquarium. None of whom I've seen involved with this deal. Presumably, they could all be active participants.
Second, KK talked about going back to a roughly equal mix of oval, road and street courses. TG did not seem very enthused, but at least seemed to be resigned to the fact that that was a good mix. The IRL had been trending that way anyway.
Third, although my license plate might read I H8 TG, I think he's not so naive as he was 12 years ago. Now he now knows a little bit about running a team (and paying for many more). He's had BE turn his back on him. He's had GM turn its back on him. He knows the value of Honda. He's seen the oval track stars he created sprint off to NASCAR.
He might have actually learned a thing or two.
Without the split, we may again see interest from the mfgrs. If that's coupled with a mix of oval roads and streets, I can envision a time when I'm too much not concerned with who's running the thing. I certainly wasn't back in '94.
And if TG does none of this - if he manages to convince himself that he's the only person that matters - that he's won and the fans be damned - then he will fail.
Publicly and alone.
Sean Malone
02-26-08, 09:14 PM
The last thing I want to be is a Tony George apologist but the LB, OZ, RA, MI, LS, BR and even lil ol' Naz were in their heyday with Indy on the sched. Gee whiz Beaver!
What was the difference? Tony wasn't in control. What remains to be seen is if Tony will give the resources to allow the tracks outside of Indy to be as healthy as they can be. IMS mentality, even before Tony, was completely Indycentric. But who knows, maybe he's had another vision.
It means the rest of the schedule will be under-promoted, neglected, pathetic excuses for races so that the one venue will stand proud above all.
In other words, LB, TO, Surfers, and maybe Cleveland will be allowed to die on the vine. We can't let any of them getting strong enough they might rival "the only race that really matters."
CART II? Hardly! :thumdown:
Those races will hardly die on the vine. They promote themselves.
miatanut
02-26-08, 11:31 PM
...Third, although my license plate might read I H8 TG...
Awsome! :thumbup: I think I've seen pictures of it.
miatanut
02-26-08, 11:32 PM
Those races will hardly die on the vine. They promote themselves.
Let us hope. Unfortunately, if they become too successful, I would expect them to be under cut. We're dealing with Tony, here.
Don Quixote
02-26-08, 11:51 PM
L1P1! :thumbup: Long time no see.
Long time no post. Hey there old timers!
What do I hope for these days? That the new Ferrari isn't too dominant and that there are 2-3 competitive teams, lead by McClaren.
What was the question again?
The last thing I want to be is a Tony George apologist but the LB, OZ, RA, MI, LS, BR and even lil ol' Naz were in their heyday with Indy on the sched. Gee whiz Beaver!
What was the difference? Tony wasn't in control. What remains to be seen is if Tony will give the resources to allow the tracks outside of Indy to be as healthy as they can be. IMS mentality, even before Tony, was completely Indycentric. But who knows, maybe he's had another vision.
How has that worked of for the earl tracks in the past while FTG has been running the show?
robot9000
02-27-08, 09:08 AM
What's wrong with that?
It means that as long as the King gets his annual Tithing, he could care less if the Pesants starve.
If you need a 'fresher, google: "White Paper" Gurney
Sean Malone
02-27-08, 09:33 AM
How has that worked of for the earl tracks in the past while FTG has been running the show?
Honestly, I don't know as the only IRL info I get is through gomer propaganda. I think I heard that they are all miserably attended except Texas and half of those in attendance are red hat giveaways. Not promising by any stretch of the imagination.
Insomniac
02-27-08, 10:01 AM
It means the rest of the schedule will be under-promoted, neglected, pathetic excuses for races so that the one venue will stand proud above all.
In other words, LB, TO, Surfers, and maybe Cleveland will be allowed to die on the vine. We can't let any of them getting strong enough they might rival "the only race that really matters."
CART II? Hardly! :thumdown:
I'm a little confused here. How could any event even come close to upstaging the Indy 500? Even pre-split, what had a chance, or was even remotely close?
Sean Malone
02-27-08, 10:10 AM
I'm a little confused here. How could any event even come close to upstaging the Indy 500? Even pre-split, what had a chance, or was even remotely close?
Yeah, rivaling the 500 is a stretch. The problem going back to the USAC controlled days is that they didn't 'care' about any race outside of Indy.
One thing NASCAR did/does right is perpetuating the notion that the next race is as important as the last. Of course F1 does this as well.
If Tony retains the old mind-site of Indy Only, this is doomed before it starts.
opinionated ow
02-27-08, 10:21 AM
Firstly-getting rid of the bloody crapwagons!
By 2010, building a series to rival NASCAR, racing most weeks to provide a final winner who can win in any situation and any circuit type or surface.
I would really like to see 220 mile road races at Road America, Road Atlanta, Laguna Seca, Portland International, Miller Motorsport, Hallett Motor Racing Circuit (needs major work, but the layout is cool), Mont Tremblant, Mexico City
220 mile temporary circuit races at Burke Lakefront, Long Beach Harbour, Surfers Paradise, Exhibition Place and Edmonton City Centre
500 mile superspeedway races at Pocono, Michigan, Fontana, Indianapolis, Rockingham (UK), Eurospeedway, Motegi
400 mile speedway race at nashville (cause the concrete makes it interesting) or kansas
300 mile short oval races at Milwaukee, Phoenix, Loudon, Gateway, USA International, Richmond, Iowa
500 lap at Music City Motorplex (sort of a rip-off of the Little 500).
and I would really love to see some way of incorporating the big dirt milers at syracuse, ISF, duquoin and springfield IL. I don't know if you would have to enforce flat floors and some sort of rollcage/screen connected to the sidepods (havent put alot of thought into that) but it should be achievable somehow.
Honestly, I don't know as the only IRL info I get is through gomer propaganda. I think I heard that they are all miserably attended except Texas and half of those in attendance are red hat giveaways. Not promising by any stretch of the imagination.
My only source for earl news is what I read here. I agree with your statement based on what we see here. I don't understand why anyone thinks FTG will do anything different going forward. He just won. Why would he change?
devilmaster
02-27-08, 11:52 AM
I would really like to see.....
damn near 30 races?!? And tracks on there that will never welcome back open wheelers... let alone some that aren't even up to safety specs. Hell, Pocono still doesn't have catch fencing around the entire track to save the inevitable flying crapwagon.
But since we're dreaming about what we may hope for.... Not that I care anymore, but I'd like them to once, just once, realize that there are fans and take them into account in their planning.
And while i'm at it, i want a billion gazillion dollars.
And a pony.
Those races will hardly die on the vine. They promote themselves.
The History of OW racing in this country pre-1979 split and post split indicate this will not be the case.
IE: Both Fontana and Michigan races were held to 400 milers in order to protect the uniqueness of the May 500 mile race.
It means that as long as the King gets his annual Tithing, he could care less if the Pesants starve.
If you need a 'fresher, google: "White Paper" Gurney
Thanks for the history lesson. :rolleyes:
The History of OW racing in this country pre-1979 split and post split indicate this will not be the case.
IE: Both Fontana and Michigan races were held to 400 milers in order to protect the uniqueness of the May 500 mile race.
Why does it matter that Fontana and Michigan are 400 miles? Who cares? The Indy 500 was the centerpiece during the CART days, and the other races were packed - sold out.
I find it hard to believe that people think the Long Beach Grand Prix or Surfers Paradise or Toronto will suffer one iota. What's going to happen....the sanctioning body won't promote it? How much promotion did CART or Champcar every do? NONE compared to Toyota or Marlboro or Honda or Shell.
Please.
JLMannin
02-27-08, 01:03 PM
The last thing I want to be is a Tony George apologist but the LB, OZ, RA, MI, LS, BR and even lil ol' Naz were in their heyday with Indy on the sched. Gee whiz Beaver!
What was the difference? Tony wasn't in control. What remains to be seen is if Tony will give the resources to allow the tracks outside of Indy to be as healthy as they can be. IMS mentality, even before Tony, was completely Indycentric. But who knows, maybe he's had another vision.
You are forgetting one of the fundamental reasons for the split in the first place - in TG's eyes, Indy was in danger of becoming just another race. Winning the PPG cup did as much, if not more, to improve a teams fortunes with sponsors than winning Indy itself. To TG, the success of the series was a threat to the and prestige of his race. All this "unification" has done, in my opinion, is turn the clock back 40 years.
All he cares about is that the prestige of any other race pales in comparison to the prestige of Indy. It's all about Indy
damn near 30 races?!? And tracks on there that will never welcome back open wheelers... let alone some that aren't even up to safety specs. Hell, Pocono still doesn't have catch fencing around the entire track to save the inevitable flying crapwagon.
But since we're dreaming about what we may hope for.... Not that I care anymore, but I'd like them to once, just once, realize that there are fans and take them into account in their planning.
And while i'm at it, i want a billion gazillion dollars.
And a pony.
You forgot Mat Millen's head on a stick. :) :irked:
-Kevin
Why does it matter that Fontana and Michigan are 400 miles? Who cares? The Indy 500 was the centerpiece during the CART days, and the other races were packed - sold out.
I find it hard to believe that people think the Long Beach Grand Prix or Surfers Paradise or Toronto will suffer one iota. What's going to happen....the sanctioning body won't promote it? How much promotion did CART or Champcar every do? NONE compared to Toyota or Marlboro or Honda or Shell.
Please.
Remember the triple crown of 500 milers? The earl doesn't even run on either of those tracks and from what I've posted, they don't seem to care about Michigan anymore.
And just who has jumped on the IRL wagon since it's inception to either promote races or the series?
Anyone that has is gone or scaled back promotion to zilch. The IRL gets shoved off onto Espn or the deuce. Tony does nothing to change that as long as the 500 remains the centerpiece and gets it's fair share of major network coverage and he gets his check.
It's all led from the top. When Dario won the Championship last year no one from upper management (TG or Barnhart) bothered to show up on TV to congradulate him. He was stuck with that blathering Arute. Nice recognition there, of course all he won was the season long championship of the IRL, it's not like it was something important like the Indy 500.
Remember the triple crown of 500 milers? The earl doesn't even run on either of those tracks and from what I've posted, they don't seem to care about Michigan anymore.
And just who has jumped on the IRL wagon since it's inception to either promote races or the series?
Anyone that has is gone or scaled back promotion to zilch. The IRL gets shoved off onto Espn or the deuce. Tony does nothing to change that as long as the 500 remains the centerpiece and gets it's fair share of major network coverage and he gets his check.
It's all led from the top. When Dario won the Championship last year no one from upper management (TG or Barnhart) bothered to show up on TV to congradulate him. He was stuck with that blathering Arute. Nice recognition there, of course all he won was the season long championship of the IRL, it's not like it was something important like the Indy 500.
I'm not referring to IRL races - we all know that those races were not promoted, not attended, and not able to stay on either CC or IRL schedules as a result. I'm talking about the bizarre concept that LBGP, TO, Surfers and Cleveland will become backwater support races to Indy. It's just not going to happen because these races have their own following and history.
Regarding Michigan and Fontana, I don't think they will/should race there for years from now, because the damage has been done & nobody cares. There are almost no fans of Indy-style racing left. The only people (other than a handful of hardcore folks) that show up are the event fans: Indy, LBGP, TO, Cleveland and some others to a lesser extent.
I'm not referring to IRL races - we all know that those races were not promoted, not attended, and not able to stay on either CC or IRL schedules as a result. I'm talking about the bizarre concept that LBGP, TO, Surfers and Cleveland will become backwater support races to Indy. It's just not going to happen because these races have their own following and history.
Regarding Michigan and Fontana, I don't think they will/should race there for years from now, because the damage has been done & nobody cares. There are almost no fans of Indy-style racing left. The only people (other than a handful of hardcore folks) that show up are the event fans: Indy, LBGP, TO, Cleveland and some others to a lesser extent.
Has attendance gone up or down at LB, TO, CLV, Surfer's, RA, Portland, Mexico, etc., etc. over the last few (say, 10) years?
I don't follow you at all.
Has attendance gone up or down at LB, TO, CLV, Surfer's, RA, Portland, Mexico, etc., etc. over the last few (say, 10) years?
I don't follow you at all.
Attendance has always been strong at the strong races. That's the point I'm attempting to make. Having the IRL control the schedule won't affect attendance at these strong races, in my opinion.
miatanut
02-27-08, 04:39 PM
I'm a little confused here. How could any event even come close to upstaging the Indy 500? Even pre-split, what had a chance, or was even remotely close?
To Tony, and the Hulman/George clan, any race that is even potentially a threat to "the only race that really matters" must be blocked. I'm not arguing that any of them could, only that Tony and Co. will make absolutely, positively, sure that none of them ever could.
In my opinion, the best thing for the health of the sport as a whole would be a 500 mile superspeedway event to occur on Labor Day weekend (yes, I'm aware of the lack of appropriate venues given the current high-downforce formula) so the I500 wouldn't have a stranglehold on the sport forever.
Of course with Tony in any position of influence, such an idea would have a snowball's chance in hell.
The Hulman/George clan have had a destructive influence on this sport for decades. The sport flourished so well under CART precisely because it broke free of that influence for a few years. The only hope for a return to the glory days we saw under CART would be to break free from that influence again.
miatanut
02-27-08, 04:46 PM
Attendance has always been strong at the strong races. That's the point I'm attempting to make. Having the IRL control the schedule won't affect attendance at these strong races, in my opinion.
I know LB and TO have been taking out grandstands. Cleveland was in decline but Laningan gave it a real push a couple years ago and reversed that decline.
I didn't respond to the "promote themselves" aspect of your original post, but the truth is, they don't. It takes a LOT of work on the part of the promoter to make a successful event. That's the true reason Portland has sucked the last few years, even after the Northwest lost the Vancouver race, so the hardcore fans has only one opportunity to see a race (more potential demand for the remaining race). Portland lacked promotion.
The IRL could charge excessive sanction fees and not provide any marketing help and kill any race it wanted to. If it doesn't make financial sense for a promoter, they won't do it. "Nothing personal, just business."
devilmaster
02-27-08, 10:01 PM
You forgot Mat Millen's head on a stick. :) :irked:
-Kevin
I keep tellin ya. I'm lions free :)
just like i'm more or less NHL(hockey) free and more or less NAOW free. All 3 i barely watch anymore.... and i find that if I do watch, i'm watchin for the inevitable trainwreck.
I keep tellin ya. I'm lions free :)
just like i'm more or less NHL(hockey) free and more or less NAOW free. All 3 i barely watch anymore.... and i find that if I do watch, i'm watchin for the inevitable trainwreck.
:saywhat: Football & NHL free??? :saywhat: What are you busy chasing girls or something? :p
Insomniac
02-28-08, 12:28 AM
Yeah, rivaling the 500 is a stretch. The problem going back to the USAC controlled days is that they didn't 'care' about any race outside of Indy.
One thing NASCAR did/does right is perpetuating the notion that the next race is as important as the last. Of course F1 does this as well.
If Tony retains the old mind-site of Indy Only, this is doomed before it starts.
I guess we'll see if he can look at the big picture and see if everything is going well, Indy would be doing the best and would benefit from it.
Napoleon
02-28-08, 06:58 AM
I honestly don't care.
robot9000
02-28-08, 10:55 AM
You forgot Mat Millen's head on a stick. :) :irked:
-Kevin
Only if Willie Clay's head is on the stick next to it :-)
After a decade+ of sucky Tigers, Wings that eat other teams lunch during the season but choke like Momma Cass at a chicken dinner during the playoffs, and 'Never Won in My Lifetime' Lions, this OW problem is a walk in the park ;)
JLMannin
02-28-08, 12:11 PM
Attendance has always been strong at the strong races. That's the point I'm attempting to make. Having the IRL control the schedule won't affect attendance at these strong races, in my opinion.
RichK,
Having the IRL in control of Indy had a dramatic effect on the attendance. It used to sell out 11 months before the race, now you can show up on race day and get in. The huge events at Long Beach, Surfers, etc will be perceived as a direct threat to the predominance of the 500. The 500 is the only race that matters now.
You are thinking locically, not like a Hulman-George.
JLMannin
02-28-08, 12:14 PM
I guess we'll see if he can look at the big picture and see if everything is going well, Indy would be doing the best and would benefit from it.
Oh, for goodness sake, if he could not see that in 1994, why in hell would he suddenly get that now?
Insomniac
02-28-08, 03:17 PM
Oh, for goodness sake, if he could not see that in 1994, why in hell would he suddenly get that now?
I'm not giving him the benefit of the doubt, but, this time the difference is he has the power. I'm taking a wait and see approach to this. I'm not going to declare that he's going to mess everything up or rebuild the sport. I just want to see the OWR that I enjoyed for many years.
Andrew Longman
02-28-08, 04:52 PM
Oh, for goodness sake, if he could not see that in 1994, why in hell would he suddenly get that now?
Not giving TG any credit here, but from a pure business case perspective his strategic interests have changed.
When his primary business asset under his control was IMS and it's events it makes sense to conspire to keep other races he doesn't control subordinate.
Now that he owns the entire combined series and he's has an increased strategic interest in growing it. But since he doesn't own the other races or tracks he probably still has too little interest in growing the series any larger than it needs to be to ensure 33 cars in May.
I think the most showing telltale about how he is looking to (not) grow the series is the totally half assed way he accomplished the merger. The only way he could have done it worse is if he did it mid season and spent even more money. He doesn't seem to care or is too dumb to care
oddlycalm
02-28-08, 10:25 PM
since he doesn't own the other races or tracks he probably still has too little interest in growing the series any larger than it needs to be to ensure 33 cars in May.
I think the most showing telltale about how he is looking to (not) grow the series is the totally half assed way he accomplished the merger. The only way he could have done it worse is if he did it mid season and spent even more money. He doesn't seem to care or is too dumb to care Agreed. He's not interested in the league, the remergification, the teams, any of it. His only concern is building the vision team for Ed and his race in May. Hulman Sr. controlled USAC as if it were his own and we're back to the company plantation. There will be moderately successful races, some unsuccessful races and now enough teams so that TG isn't in the embarrassing position of owning half the field on race day in May. Anyone expecting much more than that hasn't been paying attention to any of the last 50yrs.
Some will say that having Cotman and Barnhart running the show will ensure good decisions are made. Hulman Sr. had competent people run IMS and USAC as well, but he didn't let them grow the USAC Trail any bigger than he needed it to hold his race in May. Now that there is one series and nobody to compete with I wouldn't hold my breath for anything much to change unless Ed or one of his buddies pesters him about it.
Underfunded teams suit TG just fine. Beggars can't be choosers as the saying goes. It took well strong and well funded teams to revolt and create CART. Not going to happen twice. TG has made sure of it.
What I see right now is a big loss of jobs. Aside from the CCWS staff everyone at Cosworth Torrance, FCR and anyone associated with putting on an CCWS race is out of work. In addition, all the suppliers to those outfits just took a big hit as well and will be letting people go as well.
Without an F1 contract and without Champcar it can't look great for the long term future of Cosworth. Many of us would like to think Cosworth will re-appear as that competition that Honda says it wants, but until the long term future of Cosworth looks pretty bleak.
I can hope for quite a lot, but what I see isn't the stuff dreams are made of.
oc
miatanut
02-28-08, 10:48 PM
Agreed. He's not interested in the league, the remergification, the teams, any of it. His only concern is building the vision team for Ed and his race in May. Hulman Sr. controlled USAC as if it were his own and we're back to the company plantation. There will be moderately successful races, some unsuccessful races and now enough teams so that TG isn't in the embarrassing position of owning half the field on race day in May. Anyone expecting much more than that hasn't been paying attention to any of the last 50yrs.
Some will say that having Cotman and Barnhart running the show will ensure good decisions are made. Hulman Sr. had competent people run IMS and USAC as well, but he didn't let them grow the USAC Trail any bigger than he needed it to hold his race in May. Now that there is one series and nobody to compete with I wouldn't hold my breath for anything much to change unless Ed or one of his buddies pesters him about it.
Underfunded teams suit TG just fine. Beggars can't be choosers as the saying goes. It took well strong and well funded teams to revolt and create CART. Not going to happen twice. TG has made sure of it.
oc
Spot on! :thumbup:
Insomniac
02-28-08, 11:01 PM
Not giving TG any credit here, but from a pure business case perspective his strategic interests have changed.
When his primary business asset under his control was IMS and it's events it makes sense to conspire to keep other races he doesn't control subordinate.
Now that he owns the entire combined series and he's has an increased strategic interest in growing it. But since he doesn't own the other races or tracks he probably still has too little interest in growing the series any larger than it needs to be to ensure 33 cars in May.
I think the most showing telltale about how he is looking to (not) grow the series is the totally half assed way he accomplished the merger. The only way he could have done it worse is if he did it mid season and spent even more money. He doesn't seem to care or is too dumb to care
If they care about making money, now that he owns the entire series, he wants the best TV rights deals he can make. That's where the money is in sports now. Indy will always be top dog.
Insomniac
02-28-08, 11:03 PM
Without an F1 contract and without Champcar it can't look great for the long term future of Cosworth. Many of us would like to think Cosworth will re-appear as that competition that Honda says it wants, but until the long term future of Cosworth looks pretty bleak.
KK said most of Cosworth's work was non-racing. He didn't seem the least bit worried about Cosworth's future.
Sean Malone
02-28-08, 11:30 PM
KK said most of Cosworth's work was non-racing. He didn't seem the least bit worried about Cosworth's future.
Didn't I read a year or two ago that they were trying to break into the aftermarket street racer scene with go fast parts?
There's a lot more to the future of INdyCar that KK and TG hashed out over dinner than what box seats KK gets at Indy. I suppose.
cameraman
02-29-08, 12:15 AM
Cosworth makes all manner of aftermarket bits for Mini Coopers, Subarus, Mitsubishi and Nissans along with the entire Duratec line. They make pistons for just about everything with a spark plug. They just got a Royal Navy job to make pistons for the Deltic:eek: engines in the Hunt-class minesweepers and they got a multiyear piston contract with Lycoming last fall.
Insomniac
02-29-08, 11:07 AM
Didn't I read a year or two ago that they were trying to break into the aftermarket street racer scene with go fast parts?
There's a lot more to the future of INdyCar that KK and TG hashed out over dinner than what box seats KK gets at Indy. I suppose.
No idea. I don't pay much attention to Cosworth. Just repeating what KK said since oddlycalm thought the future of Cosworth is bleak.
It seems like the big details are done with, but I suspect little things will begin to come up. I'd expect lawsuits to start flying at CC too. They have to be violating a bunch of contracts in this.
Andrew Longman
02-29-08, 12:16 PM
A few years ago Cosworth was building engines for a few Ford NASCAR teams. I don't know if they still do though.
Sean O'Gorman
02-29-08, 12:18 PM
The only one I remember them doing that for was PPI, who is long gone. I'm pretty sure all the Ford engines are built by Roush/Yates these days.
oddlycalm
02-29-08, 04:27 PM
Cosworth makes all manner of aftermarket bits for Mini Coopers, Subarus, Mitsubishi and Nissans along with the entire Duratec line. They make pistons for just about everything with a spark plug. They just got a Royal Navy job to make pistons for the Deltic:eek: engines in the Hunt-class minesweepers and they got a multiyear piston contract with Lycoming last fall. All true. By bleak I was referring to the racing side of the business. I seriously doubt they would have bought Cosworth if all they wanted to do was make aftermarket auto parts and and stuff for stationary engines. You have to admit that going head to head with Ferrari, BMW, Benz and Honda on the race track has a bit more verve than going up against KS Kolbenschmidt's largebore piston division over a military or industrial contact. Since the latter is my world I can verify that this is not the stuff of legends...;)
oc
shomann
02-29-08, 05:04 PM
The split should have never happened, but it did. If only Champ Car would have won the battle, and we would have had EARL teams coming over to drive DP01's on proper tracks - but they didn't. KK and GF couldn't continue to piss millions of dollars down the drain. It was inevitable that this would happen. What's done is done. Forge ahead.
I am rooting for Champ Car teams and drivers to win the first and every race. This makes me support them even more. It's good against evil.
The increased grid size is going to make for very interesting racing, and quite a spectacle from what we've seen for many years.
The fact that there is only one series will make finding sponsorship easier, and end confusion for casual fans.
I hope that PT wins the 500 (not driving for Vision). I will actually watch the 500 again.
A proper car in 2010 with a grid size of 28 to 30. Back to the future.
Go Champ Car teams and drivers! Kick some arse.
If it turns out to be a good series run by wise people, I'll watch; if not I won't.
My expectation is that I will be too old to crawl up to my top row seat in the otherwise empty grandstands before I am able to discern whether it is wisely run or not.
Hard Driver
03-04-08, 01:21 PM
I kinda hope I can stomach it, and I kinda hope I can't.
I think it will be a huge benefit to the IRL. I won't use the word hope because that implies that it would make me happy without reservations. I just as much hope that the IRL dies.
But I think that the lack of division will attract sponsors. Previously, the sponsors did not want to commit to a side without pissing off the other side. Why pay to piss off customers.
I think that TG has realized that road courses is what people want, and now that he does not have to look like he is copying champcar, he "merged" with it, he can put together a schedule next year that has a heavy dose of road course. Sure there will still be homestead and other ovals, but I think the next couple years will return to a CART like mix of ovals, road and street courses.
I think it will take years before any champcar team is competitive in the IRL. They are just starting way too far back. When the new formula comes forth in 09 or 10 whenever that is supposed to be, they will be competitive, if they can hang on that long. :(
But overall, I think this will be the bottom for open wheel racing in the states and attendence, ratings, sponsorship et al will improve from here.
Insomniac
03-04-08, 04:17 PM
But I think that the lack of division will attract sponsors. Previously, the sponsors did not want to commit to a side without pissing off the other side. Why pay to piss off customers.
I seriously doubt this. Sponsors were scared off from CC because they feared a reprisal from IRL fans and vice versa? Ask some of the most ardent TG/IRL haters if they bother to see who their sponsors are and if they do anything as a result. I doubt many could be bothered to do that.
Racing Truth
03-04-08, 04:24 PM
I seriously doubt this. Sponsors were scared off from CC because they feared a reprisal from IRL fans and vice versa? Ask some of the most ardent TG/IRL haters if they bother to see who their sponsors are and if they do anything as a result. I doubt many could be bothered to do that.
Right, but the key, in theory, is getting back people the whole sport has alienated.
meadors
03-04-08, 04:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hard Driver View Post
But I think that the lack of division will attract sponsors. Previously, the sponsors did not want to commit to a side without pissing off the other side. Why pay to piss off customers.
I seriously doubt this. Sponsors were scared off from CC because they feared a reprisal from IRL fans and vice versa? Ask some of the most ardent TG/IRL haters if they bother to see who their sponsors are and if they do anything as a result. I doubt many could be bothered to do that.
Butts in the stands and ratings will attract sponsors. We'll see if the on track product attracts fans. I doubt much will change.
As far as sponsors being afraid to piss off fans, there were never enough die hard fans to matter. But there certainly have been the selected few here vowing to never buy anther Fonda
But there certainly have been the selected few here vowing to never buy anther Fonda
They should also swear off Fords to be a really hardcore IRL hatah. Ford was the first company to step up and supply the IRL in 1996.
Don't forget: Ford owns Mazda, so no more Atlantics and Star Mazda watchin'. And don't by a Mazdaspeed 3 or 6 or an RX-8 - they are made by the Devil.
[edit - I meant Ford COSWORTH above.....:laugh: ]
Insomniac
03-04-08, 04:49 PM
Right, but the key, in theory, is getting back people the whole sport has alienated.
The key for sponsors is ROI. It does not matter how. And it doesn't matter if it's old fans or new fans.
They should also swear off Fords to be a really hardcore IRL hatah. Ford was the first company to step up and supply the IRL in 1996.
Don't forget: Ford owns Mazda, so no more Atlantics and Star Mazda watchin'. And don't by a Mazdaspeed 3 or 6 or an RX-8 - they are made by the Devil.
[edit - I meant Ford COSWORTH above.....:laugh: ]
The notion that there's any equivalence between Ford's behavior and Honda's is nonsense. Ford tried to work with George in hopes that they could broker some kind of peace. It's naive to think that if Ford hadn't agreed to provide engines George wouldn't have gone right ahead running a field full of Buicks.
To compare leasing some engines to Honda's active campaign to support Tony George and destroy Champ car is beyond absurd. Ford supported Champ car for 10 years after the split and for four years after everyone else abandoned the series. Honda spent millions of dollars undermining Champ car after they left. They could have created a completely different kind of merger if they really cared about any of the principles that they claimed back in the CART days.
Honda is one more reason not to follow the "merged" series. There's nothing fun about hoping every car will DNF.
Somehow I knew you'd respond to the Mazda post! :laugh:
Ford tried to work with George in hopes that they could broker some kind of peace.
So did Honda.
It's naive to think that if Ford hadn't agreed to provide engines George wouldn't have gone right ahead running a field full of Buicks.
Had Honda not agreed to provide engines, the IRL would've just used Ilmors most likely. What's the difference? Ford gave the IRL legitimacy during the IRL's infancy.
To compare leasing some engines to Honda's active campaign to support Tony George and destroy Champ car is beyond absurd. Ford supported Champ car for 10 years after the split and for four years after everyone else abandoned the series. Honda spent millions of dollars undermining Champ car after they left. They could have created a completely different kind of merger if they really cared about any of the principles that they claimed back in the CART days.
Honda is one more reason not to follow the "merged" series. There's nothing fun about hoping every car will DNF.
Honda is/was a sole supplier to the IRL, why shouldn't they have an active campaign to support Tony George? And what specifically did they do to undermine Champcar? Buying the best teams and drivers they could?
extramundane
03-04-08, 08:57 PM
Had Honda not agreed to provide engines, the IRL would've just used Ilmors most likely. What's the difference? Ford gave the IRL legitimacy during the IRL's infancy.
Ford/Cosworth supplied engines. Honda supplies engines and very large amounts of money for team operations. BIG difference. Sure, if Honda were to leave, the engine supply issue would be very easily solved by Ilmor (or other builders), but how many teams would be disappear and/or scale back dramatically without Hondabux? See Toyota's & Honda's CART exit for details.
Ford never provided that support during its brief IRL tenure. They gave the IRL about as much legitimacy as Buick, Ilmor, Lola and Reynard did: very little.
Ford/Cosworth supplied engines. Honda supplies engines and very large amounts of money for team operations. BIG difference. Sure, if Honda were to leave, the engine supply issue would be very easily solved by Ilmor (or other builders), but how many teams would be disappear and/or scale back dramatically without Hondabux? See Toyota's & Honda's CART exit for details.
Ford never provided that support during its brief IRL tenure. They gave the IRL about as much legitimacy as Buick, Ilmor, Lola and Reynard did: very little.
But my question is: what's wrong with Honda doing that? It's in their self-interest.
oddlycalm
03-04-08, 10:20 PM
It's not something I hope for, but the reality is that there are a bunch of cities left without a race. Some might get a race for 2009, but most won't. Those that do will have to get people to come back after the interruption, those that don't will look elsewhere or hang it up. Hard to see how this is a positive development for anyone.
oc
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