DP01?

[Andrew Longman]

Smart or not?

Its crazy to expect TG to do anything smart, but that's not the question.

Would it be smart to switch to DP01 in 09?

It is obvious why they will use Dallaras in 08 since the existing IRL teams were already prepared to run them.

But fast forward to mid season. It will likely be clear then that the merger is not going to bring the ratings, crowds, and sponsors needed to cover the costs of running the series. Teams and TG will be looking to lower costs.

The weak US$ will mean imported Dallaras/parts will still be expensive.

Honda will have tipped their intent to hang around.

It will also be obvious that the difference between teams that can afford to develop the aleady well developed Dallaras those that can't is big and getting bigger.

At that point they have two choices:

A) Stick with the Dallaras as long as they can and until a replacement is developed for 2010-12. This will mean continued high operating costs and continued poor on track product in terms of competitive fields. And it will discourage team entry and continued participation.

B) Make the switch to DP01s in 09 and freeze/limit development. After the initial expense (which for new chassis will be lower than the Dallaras) they will have a lower operating costs and a level playing field that encourages participation and better racing, especially on road courses.

Thoughts?

[cameraman]

The DP01 would be the least expensive route if it really is up to smacking a wall at an oval. It is already developed, I would guess it could be refitted to use a Honda engine if need be. It would be a huge improvement over the Dallara barge. I'd even watch the IRL if they did it.

And Ed do you really think that they are buying that many new Dallaras for this year vs redistributing the fleet TG already owns?

[Ed_Severson]

Before I start, please understand that although I practically called you crazy in the other thread, I mean no disrespect. It's all in fun. ;)

I think you're making the same mistake in logic that Champ Car's owners made when they boldly proclaimed that the DP01 would make it cheaper for Champ Car's team owners and subsequently predicted a boom in grid size for 2007.

It's a new car. That is in no way cheaper than running what you already have. Over the course of 4 or 5 seasons, yes, running the DP01 would be cheaper than running a Dallara. But we're not talking about 4 or 5 seasons here; we're talking about 2009 and that's it.

One thing that most people miss, too, is that the cost difference isn't as drastic as it was made out to be. Yes, the price of a rolling DP01 chassis was considerably lower than a Lola ... and the build quality was awful as a result. Either Panoz will have to raise the price to justify proper fit and finish, or the teams will end up bearing that financial burden by having private firms do bodywork fitting.

The thing to do here is continue to run the Dallara through the 2009 season and start fresh with a new 2010 formula.

[Ed_Severson]

And Ed do you really think that they are buying that many new Dallaras for this year vs redistributing the fleet TG already owns?

Huh? I don't see how that conflicts with anything I've said.

[cameraman]

But we're not talking about 4 or 5 seasons here; we're talking about 2009 and that's it.

Why?

Also the Euro is running at $1.50 today and it isn't going to get any less expensive any time soon. Elan could raise the price (and take a more time to build each car) and still be well under the cost of a European machine.

[dando]

Sorry, I can't see that happening until '10, and that might make too much sense. :(

-Kevin

[Andrew Longman]

No disrespect taken Ed. Besides I can take it. :D

You also pointed out an omition in my idea. I meant to suggest they drop development of a new spec to well beyond 2010. With practically new DP01s there would be no reason for it until much later.

As for fit and finish, I wonder how much of that was due to the pace they had to build them and how much to the quality of the tooling. If they have to retool significant parts of the car that would be very expensive.

BOTHO knowing they can supply a grid of 24-28 cars for the next 5 years might mean Panoz can lower the price considerably and/or improve the tooling.

[Ed_Severson]

Why?

Because the IRL has already announced their intent to introduce a new chassis spec for the 2010 season.

[Andrew Longman]

Huh? I don't see how that conflicts with anything I've said.

Because TG wouldn't be buying new chassis this year and again next year. Many think he already owns most of the chassis being given out this year.

[Andrew Longman]

Because the IRL has already announced their intent to introduce a new chassis spec for the 2010 season.

Sort of. They said the current chassis would be replaced a few years ago. They have some Art Center School of Design students doing some concept work. Nothing about the new spec is actually set. And I've read somewhere that the changeover may be pushed back as far as 2012.

[Ed_Severson]

You also pointed out an omition in my idea. I meant to suggest they drop development of a new spec to well beyond 2010.

Well, that's an entirely different scenario. Just so we're on the same page, I'm operating under the assumption that there will be a new spec in 2010.

Even still, I don't think it works financially. For starters, the DP01 would still require significant development to get it oval ready, and beyond that, you're still asking team owners to buy brand new cars rather than continue with what they already have, which negates the cost savings on spares.


As for fit and finish, I wonder how much of that was due to the pace they had to build them and how much to the quality of the tooling.

It was a cost issue. They could easily have delivered a much better product, but not at the price point required by their contract with Champ Car.

[Ed_Severson]

Because TG wouldn't be buying new chassis this year and again next year. Many think he already owns most of the chassis being given out this year.

He's not buying all new cars this year, but some of them are new. The bigger point, though, is that switching to the DP01 in 2009 requires yet another investment in new equipment and everything that money was spent on in 2008 would then be obsolete. Guys like Walker and Bachelart and the others are still going to end up spending a signifcant amount of money in 2008 to accommodate the new car; to turn around in 2009 and go back to something they already had will have made their 2008 investments pointless, and will put an unnecessary burden on the current IndyCar owners as well.

[nissan gtp]

The DP01 is dead IMO. Be cool for vintage racing tho.

An evolution of the DP01 might be in the cards for '10. As pointed out, Elan should have a big cost advantage over the European builders.

Bet they call it the TG01 :p

[Andrew Longman]

Ed, if you have first hand knowledge about what the fit and finish issues were, I am sincerely interested in learning more. I have a basic knowledge of CF construction but would like to know more about the specifics of how cost drove quality problems.

In most manufacturing quality issues, root cause falls into either designs that are hard to control or processes that are not in control. Neither are inherently driven by cost and in fact higher quality usually drives out costs.

But as I said, I may know much less about CF construction than I need to.

[Gnam]

It is absolutely crazy to think that a switch to the Panoz/Cosworth package will happen in 2009. They're not going to spend a *****oad of money to buy new equipment for half the field this year and then turn around and do it all over again next season. :saywhat:
But they aren't buying new equipment. The Champ Car teams are getting existing rent-a-wrecks, right? The money FTG is paying to the teams is just so they can maintain staff levels and keep the lights on.

The Dallara makes sense now because half the field already owns it, and there are plenty of surplus hulks laying around for the other half. When the IRL upgrades in '09 or '10, the cheapest option would be to choose a car half the field already owns. If the cost to operate a DP-01 is less than a Dallara, FTG will be able to upgrade his POS league on the cheap. :\

[Andrew Longman]

He's not buying all new cars this year, but some of them are new. The bigger point, though, is that switching to the DP01 in 2009 requires yet another investment in new equipment and everything that money was spent on in 2008 would then be obsolete. Guys like Walker and Bachelart and the others are still going to end up spending a signifcant amount of money in 2008 to accommodate the new car; to turn around in 2009 and go back to something they already had will have made their 2008 investments pointless, and will put an unnecessary burden on the current IndyCar owners as well.

But Ed, imagine it is mid season and guys like Walker and Bachelart AND NHL and Minardi are spending a fortune yet getting their brains beat in. And they know spending more money next year will not help.

At some point teams (including existing IRL team) will look to Tony and say, "We gave it a go, but its not working for us and its not working for you. You are headed towards a situation where you won't have a secure supply of teams for your race. Swtich cars now or it make no sense for us to continue"

[Racing Truth]

No disrespect taken Ed. Besides I can take it. :D

You also pointed out an omition in my idea. I meant to suggest they drop development of a new spec to well beyond 2010. With practically new DP01s there would be no reason for it until much later.

As for fit and finish, I wonder how much of that was due to the pace they had to build them and how much to the quality of the tooling. If they have to retool significant parts of the car that would be very expensive.

BOTHO knowing they can supply a grid of 24-28 cars for the next 5 years might mean Panoz can lower the price considerably and/or improve the tooling.

So, run the DP01 in '07, year off in '08, then run it for, what, 3 yrs. starting in '09? Somehow, that seems unlikely. By '09, they may not have been run much, but "practically new" they won't be.

In any case, I think a clean sheet is needed. Furthermore, unfortunate as it is, this all under the IRL banner now. They've had plans for 2010. Why are they going to change?

[Ed_Severson]

Without getting too specific, I think you could call it a tooling problem. Having worked in tech inspection with the DP01, I can tell you with absolute certainty that no two of them were the same -- further, no two front wings were the same, no two rear wings were the same, and nobody purchased a rolling chassis that actually matched the specs.

If Panoz had been allowed to sell the cars for, say, $450,000 instead of whatever the actual figure was (roughly $275,000, I think), then they could have afforded the extra manpower and produced better jigs to ensure that all the wings matched spec and all the bodywork fit together properly. It's not at all that Panoz is incapable of building a car to the same standards as Lola (although some would say that's actually true!). The way it turned out, though, they pretty much just produced everything with the bare minimum on expenditures and sold whatever came out, and the teams were left to deal with the end product.

Some of this stuff was easy to fix, but some of it isn't. For example, the foot flanges on the front wing, by spec, should have been exactly three inches above the reference plane on the bottom of the car and exactly parallel to that plane. Most came out a little shy of three 3 inches up front and well over 3 inches at the back -- nose down. The fix here is simple -- the mainplane pylons could be shimmed, so you just add a tapered shim to push the back end down and level the foot flange out.

But, the front wing mainplane chord was also supposed to be at a fixed angle with respect to that reference plane. Not only were most not built to that spec, they weren't even the same on the left and right sides of the wing. How do you fix that without altering the profile of the part you were sold?

[Andrew Longman]

Thanks Ed, that's telling.

I'm still not convinced that more money would have fixed it though. Just sound like rushed/sloppy work to me.

Taking the time to engineer how make every part right the first time doesn't really cost more, especially when you factor in the savings that comes from not wasting time and materials on parts you throw out or rework.

OTOH if you know you won't be throwing out or reworking anything because your customers will buy whatever you ship then you can be as sloppy as you want.

[stroker]

seems to me that the solution is for somebody to write a check with many zeroes on it and come up with an equalization formula for ALL the relevant cars from the Reynard and after. Equalize the engines as best you can through electronic means if necessary and allow everyone to run Reynards, Lolas, Dallaras, Panoz, etc. with Cosworths or Ilmors. Run that until 2010 until you can come up with new specs. Some packages will be better on ovals, others on road courses. Those teams with sponsorship can spend the $ necessary to find the best combo, and others will have to struggle, as usual.

The trick is for somebody to give permission for the check to be cut. Unless that happens, we're stuck with crapwagons.

[pchall]

Unless they are saving the announcement until May to present before three hundred thousand rabid fans on race day and can actually keep a lid on any real news about it, there'd at least be some significant scuttlebutt about the next IRL package. Right now I'm beginning to suspect that the package will be unveiled an look suspiciously like with DP-01 with a 2003 G-Force rhinoplasty job.


Because the IRL has already announced their intent to introduce a new chassis spec for the 2010 season.

[cameraman]

It'd take 5 years to figure out an equalization formula for that mess of cars. At that point call it an open wheel ALMS and run 4 classes.

[Andrew Longman]

stroker, the pivotal issue is that all those chassis have varying degrees of history and development. At this level (or the level the IRL aspires to be) this is not Saturday night racing on a 1/4 dirt oval and most participants just happy to be there.

These guys want to win and given what the sponsors are asked to pay they expect a reasonable shot at being at the front and on TV.

It would be virtually impossible to equalizw all the hardware out there because various teams have developed them to differing degrees and top teams wil gravitate to the single best formula.

CC got it right IMO by giving everyone the same spec and the same very limited ability to develop specific parts of the car. Until a whole lot more money starts coming into the sport there really is no other practical alternative. CC figured that out. When will TG?

[Racing Truth]

Unless they are saving the announcement until May to present before three hundred thousand rabid fans on race day and can actually keep a lid on any real news about it, there'd at least be some significant scuttlebutt about the next IRL package. Right now I'm beginning to suspect that the package will be unveiled an look suspiciously like with DP-01 with a 2003 G-Force rhinoplasty job.

Aesthetically, they could actually do worse than that (like a Dallara nose:gomer: )

[Insomniac]

I think the DP01 could be a fall back option. If I was running the series, now that it is unified, I would first try and gauge interest of engine, chassis and tire manufacturers to compete beginning in 2010. I'd want to get away from spec facing as quickly as possible. If that can not happen, then I would look at the DP01 since it is new-ish and has one year of running. That would help to minimize growing pains by going with a new spec chassis. Of course, this assumes it is up to snuff. They should commit to really testing it during the 2009 season. The last time they tested it they didn't realize the fuel cells/fueling didn't work, the onboard starter doesn't work and that the belts weren't placed properly to prevent injury. That's some pretty crappy testing.

[Sean Malone]

**** I'd rather see the Lola.

[Insomniac]

CC got it right IMO by giving everyone the same spec and the same very limited ability to develop specific parts of the car. Until a whole lot more money starts coming into the sport there really is no other practical alternative. CC figured that out. When will TG?

Haven't you been paying attention. TG figures out what CART/CC did 3 years after! :D

[Gnam]

The last time they tested it they didn't realize the fuel cells/fueling didn't work, the onboard starter doesn't work and that the belts weren't placed properly to prevent injury.
From Ed's description it sounds like they realized it; they just didn't care. Which is just how the IRL operates...wait a minute... If the TG01 is as bad as Ed says, it's perfect for the IRL. ;)

[TU Homer]

He's not buying all new cars this year, but some of them are new. The bigger point, though, is that switching to the DP01 in 2009 requires yet another investment in new equipment and everything that money was spent on in 2008 would then be obsolete. Guys like Walker and Bachelart and the others are still going to end up spending a signifcant amount of money in 2008 to accommodate the new car; to turn around in 2009 and go back to something they already had will have made their 2008 investments pointless, and will put an unnecessary burden on the current IndyCar owners as well.

Don't mean to be argumentative. And I don't necessarily believe TG will go with the DP01 or DP02 or whatever incarnation he can make of the DP01. But, I have heard there are about 25 functional chassis already out there...


-TU

[Insomniac]

From Ed's description it sounds like they realized it; they just didn't care. Which is just how the IRL operates...wait a minute... If the TG01 is as bad as Ed says, it's perfect for the IRL. ;)

That's even worse. I remember them doing only short runs with Moreno during testing. I don't recall him ever trying a standing start. And I don't know if they crash the cars with dummies, if so, I do not know if that would've exposed that the belts weren't mounted right. So, i chocked it up to poor testing instead of not caring. One is a lot more negligent than the other.

[Ziggy]

The DPO1 was the best racecar ever made, the people at SmackForum told me so :rofl:

[Indy]

No to the DP01 P.O.S.

Open the formula. Mandate undertrays, footboxes/bulkheads, wing sizes, etc. to provide safety and to prevent overly turbulent aero. Mandate small displacement turbo diesel with room to reduce turbo pressure when necessary. Ban unobtainium but otherwise allow the engineers to do their work. Make periodic displacement reductions a religion that potential manufacturers accept coming in.

In other words just have no-nonsense but generally open specs and let the team budgets determine the level of development.

[Ed_Severson]

Don't mean to be argumentative. And I don't necessarily believe TG will go with the DP01 or DP02 or whatever incarnation he can make of the DP01. But, I have heard there are about 25 functional chassis already out there...


-TU

More like 30, actually, but that's still not enough.

Suppose you have a 24 car grid ... you can go ahead and count on teams like Newman/Haas, Penske, Ganassi, and Andretti insisting on having backups for every car they enter, and I have a hard time seeing Ganassi and Penske (and perhaps Andretti too) settling for used chassis in the long run. Sure, to get everybody started, they would probably take loaners from teams with spares, but eventually they would want to buy brand new cars.

As far as testing is concerned ...

Standing starts were never attempted during Moreno's test program because Cosworth hadn't developed a map for that yet, and we weren't even sure we were going to attempt them at the time. The starters actually were tested and the one on the test car didn't show any problems. Eventually it was discovered that a bigger battery would be needed to do the job consistently, but the floor was going to have to be redesigned to accommodate it, so for cost reasons, the starters were scrapped. The fuel cell issues were brought about, I think, by a coating that compromised the structure of the cell wall but the coating had not been applied to the test car's cell. And the chassis passed every FIA crash test mandated for Formula 1 plus a self-imposed side intrusion test, with loads adjusted for oval racing -- the first North American open-wheel car to do so. Unfortunately, the FIA doesn't have a test for vertical impact aside from testing the integrity of the roll structure.

As an aside ... I heard a pretty interesting story recently with regards to crash testing. There's a company here in Indy that does impact testing of all sorts for racing cars and road cars. Supposedly Dr. Trammell has expressed interest in setting up a test with a dummy and some add-on parts. He believes that Milka's, er, enhancements might have played a role in protecting her from back injury. :saywhat:

[extramundane]

As an aside ... I heard a pretty interesting story recently with regards to crash testing. There's a company here in Indy that does impact testing of all sorts for racing cars and road cars. Supposedly Dr. Trammell has expressed interest in setting up a test with a dummy and some add-on parts. He believes that Milka's, er, enhancements might have played a role in protecting her from back injury. :saywhat:

Airbags indeed.

:rofl:

[Andrew Longman]

So, run the DP01 in '07, year off in '08, then run it for, what, 3 yrs. starting in '09? Somehow, that seems unlikely. By '09, they may not have been run much, but "practically new" they won't be.

In any case, I think a clean sheet is needed. Furthermore, unfortunate as it is, this all under the IRL banner now. They've had plans for 2010. Why are they going to change?

The key benefit of the DP01 is that it is a clean sheet and no one has been allowed to develop it. That's more important than how many races are on a chassis or how old the design is.

There 30 chassis sit. Easy to make as many more that are needed. And no need to wait until 2010 to put away the Dallaras nearly everybody except AGR and Penske hates.

[cameraman]

A year of racing is a lot of testing. I would think that the majority of the problems with the DP01 have been identified. Fixing those problems would be far less expensive than designing a new car from scratch especially since that new car would have its own list of different problems in its first year.

[Ruben Barrios]

Ed, did the string of back lesions have anything to do with the lack of vertical testing for the DP01?

On a side note I think it's beyond stupid not to allow private testing when you are dealing with new chasis... There should be rules on how it's done (to help level the playing field), like sharing results and things of that nature... but I believe testing should be an ongoing effort...

[TU Homer]

More like 30, actually, but that's still not enough.


Suppose you have a 24 car grid ... you can go ahead and count on teams like Newman/Haas, Penske, Ganassi, and Andretti insisting on having backups for every car they enter, and I have a hard time seeing Ganassi and Penske (and perhaps Andretti too) settling for used chassis in the long run. Sure, to get everybody started, they would probably take loaners from teams with spares, but eventually they would want to buy brand new cars.
It's a big step toward being enough. You said that everyone would need new cars with DP01, and that's not true. In fact, there are no new cars out there that would require less ramp up.


As far as testing is concerned ...

Standing starts were never attempted during Moreno's test program because Cosworth hadn't developed a map for that yet, and we weren't even sure we were going to attempt them at the time. The starters actually were tested and the one on the test car didn't show any problems. Eventually it was discovered that a bigger battery would be needed to do the job consistently, but the floor was going to have to be redesigned to accommodate it, so for cost reasons, the starters were scrapped. The fuel cell issues were brought about, I think, by a coating that compromised the structure of the cell wall but the coating had not been applied to the test car's cell. And the chassis passed every FIA crash test mandated for Formula 1 plus a self-imposed side intrusion test, with loads adjusted for oval racing -- the first North American open-wheel car to do so. Unfortunately, the FIA doesn't have a test for vertical impact aside from testing the integrity of the roll structure.

As an aside ... I heard a pretty interesting story recently with regards to crash testing. There's a company here in Indy that does impact testing of all sorts for racing cars and road cars. Supposedly Dr. Trammell has expressed interest in setting up a test with a dummy and some add-on parts. He believes that Milka's, er, enhancements might have played a role in protecting her from back injury. :saywhat:

Still sounds like the DP01 could be updated on the cheap, with quality controls implemented that could work. TG could take the DP01, update to DP02 with his mandates, and the cost would be pretty decent. Personally, I like the way it looks, and would be a nice gesture toward merge or unification. WHatever...


-TU

[Ed_Severson]

You said that everyone would need new cars with DP01, and that's not true.

That's not at all what I said. The IndyCar team owners would need to invest in new equipment; clearly that's not true for the Champ Car team owners with regards to the DP01, but the broader point is that running the Dallara in 2008 and the DP01 in 2009 would require everyone to invest in new equipment at some point -- Champ Car guys now, IndyCar guys later, and it has the double effect of making the Champ Car team owners' 2008 investment ultimately pointless.

[Andrew Longman]

...and it has the double effect of making the Champ Car team owners' 2008 investment ultimately pointless.

But they are getting the Dallaras for free. TG is paying for them. And he may need to pay/help pay for their replacements too whether it is 09 with DP01s or 2010 with whatever else they have in mind.

The question is, what's the smartest purchase? DP01 looks better to me.

[Insomniac]

But they are getting the Dallaras for free. TG is paying for them. And he may need to pay/help pay for their replacements too whether it is 09 with DP01s or 2010 with whatever else they have in mind.

The question is, what's the smartest purchase? DP01 looks better to me.

There is also a stigma attached to it that it isn't new. You're replacing one aging design with a used design.

[Andrew Longman]

There is also a stigma attached to it that it isn't new. You're replacing one aging design with a used design.

True. And I think that is more important than some might think

But if a totally new car is not available until 2010, or even later as has been suggested by some IRL insiders, then I'd take a 2007 DP01 over a 2003 Dallara for 09-?

[Insomniac]

True. And I think that is more important than some might think

But if a totally new car is not available until 2010, or even later as has been suggested by some IRL insiders, then I'd take a 2007 DP01 over a 2003 Dallara for 09-?

That ? has to be a decent amount of time though. Seems like a giant waste of money for just a year or 2. By the end of this season everyone will have the equipment and experience. It would seem stupid (but not out of character) to switch to the DP01 as a stop gap to the next thing.

[Andrew Longman]

I think 2012 would be a good stake in the ground for a new car.

Three years will tell a lot about whether this new version of the Vision is going to work and what sort of car the economics of the sport can afford. Add one more year to finalize development of it and run 2012 in a new car.

Or hopefully, the sport is healthy enough by then to have more open specs and competing chassis again. Sure.

[stroker]

I think 2012 would be a good stake in the ground for a new car.

Three years will tell a lot about whether this new version of the Vision is going to work and what sort of car the economics of the sport can afford. Add one more year to finalize development of it and run 2012 in a new car.

Or hopefully, the sport is healthy enough by then to have more open specs and competing chassis again. Sure.

Aren't they trying to start "fresh" with a new car for the Centennial of the 500 in 2011?

[Racing Truth]

I think 2012 would be a good stake in the ground for a new car.

Three years will tell a lot about whether this new version of the Vision is going to work and what sort of car the economics of the sport can afford. Add one more year to finalize development of it and run 2012 in a new car.

Or hopefully, the sport is healthy enough by then to have more open specs and competing chassis again. Sure.

2012? See, to me, part of bringing the sport back to health (if possible) is going to be the introduction of a new formula. Waiting until 2012, even if you go DP01 (don't see it, but hypothetically...), retards that process, IMHO.

[cameraman]

I see it as either move to:

An improved version of the DP01 because the design already exists

or

A new car brought to you by the exact same people who brought you the current Dallara. I have no faith that the brain trust at IMS would design anything other than another Indy-centric battle wagon. You folks seem to have forgotten what Indy means...

[grungex]

But they are getting the Dallaras for free. TG is paying for them.

This isn't really true. He's loaning them a basic chassis with an engine lease, but everything else, including engine looms, dash systems, gears, crash insurance and spares will have to be paid for. Then there's the issue of development, including dampers and aero. Very little besides wheels from the DP-01 can be used on the Dallara.

[Chiphead_Dave]

Very little besides wheels from the DP-01 can be used on the Dallara.

Putting wheels that were once used on a DP-01 or a Lola Champ car chassis on a Dallara seems like putting track shoes worn by a Olympics Gold medalist on an.........105 year old 400lb donut binging imbecile.:yuck:

[Ed_Severson]

This isn't really true. He's loaning them a basic chassis with an engine lease, but everything else, including engine looms, dash systems, gears, crash insurance and spares will have to be paid for. Then there's the issue of development, including dampers and aero. Very little besides wheels from the DP-01 can be used on the Dallara.

Thanks ... I was just going to make that point myself.

The IRL is providing a rolling chassis, but that does not relegate the investment on the part of the Champ Car team owners to zero or even anywhere near it. Spares are a huge issue, especially with ovals in play, and even little things like gear ratios, diff internals, looms, and even a simple nut and bolt inventory won't be provided without cost -- they will require significant investment. Even tools could be an issue. It's likely that 95% of mechanics' tools would carry over but there are tons of little things a race team uses that add up quickly, like purpose-built work trays that sit on the wishbones, wing covers, quick lifts, and all kinds of other stuff.

The perception that Champ Car team owners are getting a free ride in 2008 is far from reality. There will still be a hefty investment required to cover the basic things you need to go racing.


The question is, what's the smartest purchase? DP01 looks better to me.

You can't really make that judgement without knowing what the alternative is, and that hasn't been determined yet.

[miatanut]

No to the DP01 P.O.S.

Open the formula. Mandate undertrays, footboxes/bulkheads, wing sizes, etc. to provide safety and to prevent overly turbulent aero. Mandate small displacement turbo diesel with room to reduce turbo pressure when necessary. Ban unobtainium but otherwise allow the engineers to do their work. Make periodic displacement reductions a religion that potential manufacturers accept coming in.

In other words just have no-nonsense but generally open specs and let the team budgets determine the level of development.

How about any engine you want, but use an air restrictor like in Sportscar racing?

[pchall]

A new car brought to you by the exact same people who brought you the current Dallara. I have no faith that the brain trust at IMS would design anything other than another Indy-centric battle wagon. You folks seem to have forgotten what Indy means...

You are very correct about that. If a new car is "designed" out of the IMS offices it will be a superspeedway chassis that works great on that one track and is a sow's ear every place else.