What about KK ?

[Winston Wolfe]

so I have been as thoroughly pizzed off about all of this "remergicrapification" just like so many of us here, but it has me thinking about KK in all of this and wondering if most see him in the Geesus Forsythe camp (quit and took his toys to go home), the Pauly Poledance crowd (can I have some more singles please?) or as just another money grubbing venture capitalist who took TOneyBux to leave the fight?
I, for one, recall seeing him in the paddock at LB back in '03 and personally thanked him for saving our series and bringing the cars back for another season. Many others that weekend did the same thing, shouting out his name, waving to him, as I saw him in many places that weekend. Since then, he has made several moves to strengthen CCWS (Cosworth, Pi, new chassis, etc.) - but has also made "mistakes" along the way (china, schedule, tv contract, korea, etc.) - but continued to pump a load of cash (mostly his own, I would guess....) into the series along with GF to save the series and keep it going. But, eventually deciding that it was no use to go any further and then spent portions of the last two years, or more, trying to merge with TG and the "other" series he saved Champ Car from in the first place at the couthouse that fateful day.
I am still curious about his motivations in all of this, and as I said, we have all had a chance to digest what has happened to "us" and our favorite racing series (except for SOG :D )- so long story short - What do we think of KK now that this has all happened ?
After reading post after post here from most of the regulars, and a few long timers who have lurked for years since the 7G days, it is clear that many, many, many of us are passionate about this series and felt a sense of loss and share a sense of community, a portion of which that seems to have come to a close. When you look at the post counts of some folks and the knowledge that most of us have on the politics of the series and the "split" itself, it aint difficult to see that its taken a toll on alot of fans.... I was hoping KK could have saved it, or at least gotten "more" out of the merger \ capitulation \ takeover \ folding \ surrender of Champ Car. But it aint no mo' , and the Three Amigos gave us a few more years of turbos and for that, I thank them once again, especially KK....:thumbup:

[Chief]

I think KK seen his opportunities and he took 'em. Merging eventually was going to happen and the price was right....FTG is left holding the bag of sheiss that he alone wanted and now has. Perfect conclusion....for Tony.

[KLang]

I think it was a hobby for the amigos and it finally got too expensive. I don't hold any ill will towards them, they tried and it didn't work out. We got a couple more years of racing out of the deal.

[SteveH]

I think it might have been more than a hobby for Forsythe.

[robot9000]

I think eveyone wants to wrap this thing in all kinds of overly conspiratorial, visioned, whatever kind of thing.

Maybe he, like most of us, just takes things one day at a time and deals with things as they come down. Sure we plan, but life isn't always so accomadating.

Maybe he saw that things were not going to get better and decided the FTG offer was the best offer on the horizon? Maybe he is just wants to go racing like most other team owners.

I don't wake up every day reviewing my "Grand List of World Moving Events" and deciding which to tackle today. None of us do. So what makes KK and Co any different. Sure they have a lot more moola to make stuff happen (and power and influence that comes with it) but in the end of the day, maybe he was just motivated by the same things that motivate all of us - don't spend more $$ than I have to to do the things I like to do.

Sometimes a Cigar is just a Cigar, ya know :shrug:

Even FTG is pretty easy to figure out - control everything in order to 'protect' the speedway. Now, he's an idiot, and does eveything wrong, but you at least see why he is trying to do the ****ed up things he does. Not defending it in any way, just pointing out that his apparent motivations are pretty transparent too.

(GF on the other hand is, as mentioned, batshit crazy. You can't tell what motivates insane people.)

[Insomniac]

I think KK was a rich guy who was pulled into racing and liked what he saw. I think he genuinely (along with GF) thought they could take control of CART and make it a success. It just didn't work out, and there are many theories/reasons for why it didn't. But, I think the bottom line is he really does like racing now and that's why he is continuing in the IRL.

[stroker]

what frustrates me about KK is that he did EXACTLY the same thing as my current employer did with a business acquisition, with pretty much the same results. WE all knew what needed to happen to make CC work (cheaper participation, venue mix, etc.) but he was too focused on the "World Class" concept to see the economic train coming down the tunnel.

Don't worry, FTG will screw it up. He was motivated to do SOMETHING while CC was around, but now that he has the whole toy box, he'll sit back and shovel whatever he wants because the fans have nowhere else to go (he thinks).

[Sean O'Gorman]

I think he was just a hobbyist who has no concept of what it would take to make the series actually popular, and at some point just decided to stop pouring money into the series.

[Indy]

I think the nature of the "merger" has proven the conspiracy theory:

- Red Bull pays off Cosworth F1 with a CC sponsorship.

- Jerry thinks it is his because he had it in Atlantics.

- Kevin "steals" it away for PKV.

- Jerry hates Kevin.

- Dan also hates Kevin for some unknown reason.

- Paul takes advantage.

- Kevin gets outvoted on everything in '07.

- Kevin says, "**** it," and plots the surrender with TG.

Now, given all that, what were Kevin's original intentions? I think he thought he could build a world class series, and as venture capitalist, no doubt he was also building an asset, but also as a newly passionate racer I think he thought he could be building a retirement plan, a la Paul Newman.

Rich guys and their egos make lousy partners.

[JT265]

I think the nature of the "merger" has proven the conspiracy theory:

- Red Bull pays off Cosworth F1 with a CC sponsorship.

- Jerry thinks it is his because he had it in Atlantics.

- Kevin "steals" it away for PKV.

- Jerry hates Kevin.

- Dan also hates Kevin for some unknown reason.

- Paul takes advantage.

- Kevin gets outvoted on everything in '07.

- Kevin says, "**** it," and plots the surrender with TG.

Now, given all that, what were Kevin's original intentions? I think he thought he could build a world class series, and as venture capitalist, no doubt he was also building an asset, but also as a newly passionate racer I think he thought he could be building a retirement plan, a la Paul Newman.

Rich guys and their egos make lousy partners.

Pretty close to my take as well. Seems the hangers-on are the most vocal in the demise.

[JLMannin]

I think KK was a rich guy who was pulled into racing and liked what he saw. I think he genuinely (along with GF) thought they could take control of CART and make it a success. It just didn't work out, and there are many theories/reasons for why it didn't. But, I think the bottom line is he really does like racing now and that's why he is continuing in the IRL.


That is how I feel as well. No vast conspiracy, just a businessman who saw an opportunity and tried to make a go of it.

[Wally]

So how many here see KK strolling around the speedway this Memorial Day?

Just curious as I hold no ill will toward him.

[G.]

So how many here see KK strolling around the speedway this Memorial Day?

Just curious as I hold no ill will toward him.No reason for him to be there, KV Racing will get bumped by Milkers and Special Ed.:)

Has there been any evidence (other than innerweb posters) that has Jerry pissed off at Kevin? Something not adding up in that.

RedBull pays off Cosworth, but GF IS Cosworth, right? Also, let's assume that KK and GF are equally pitching in money to CCWS. Wouldn't GF be involved in the decision for where the RB paint ended up? Doesn't it just lower BOTH of their payouts?

And if they are feuding, what happens to Cossie?

[extramundane]

I'm basically with Insomniac & Robot. I believe KK reached a point where he'd lost as much money as he was willing to lose and was done. I suspect that, being a businessman, he felt selling to Tony would be the best business decision at that point. It was a business he was passionate about, to be sure, but a business nonetheless. I suppose he could have sold his lot to Forsythe & Co, but if Gerry didn't even visit a race in almost a year, who knows whether he was even expressing an interest in buying KK out. In addition to the aforementioned batshit crazydom, I see a fair amount of passive-agressiveness in his (in)actions. I can imagine him sitting in his office, full-hot pissed off over the idea of Kalkhoven negotiating w/ Tony, but preferring to take it out on PT's contract rather than pick up the phone and call Kevin.

The notion that there was a conspiracy afoot seems very outlandish to me.

[robot9000]

If they got $5-10 Million from RedBull to quench the F1 deal (2 cars, remember) wouldn't that money really need to be spent inside Cosworth. And more specifically, that money would probably be used to defray costs of laying off people, moving equipment, etc that is involved in running and engine program in Yurup when you are based in SoCal.

I'm no Accountant, but I also don't think you can just move the money around that easily. Cosworth money is Cosworth money. I am sure the SEC would take a dim view of KK and Co. pocketing $5M+ and channeling it into their racing team. Isn't that kind of how Menards got in hot water?

It needs to be worked through Cosworth. Now, maybe they did that (check to Cosworth, check from Cossi to KK. KK uses it to make RedBull livery). But I am sure there are people running Cossi that would be putting up all kinds or red flags. Sure, Cossi is owned by KK and G'bsc'F, but that doesn't mean they get to use it to laundry money for their pet projects. I would think keeping Cossi healthy and finding revinue to replace the F1 money would be a better, smarter investment of that money.

Of course, we don't even know if RB actually OWED Cossy any money, now do we :D

[Insomniac]

I think the nature of the "merger" has proven the conspiracy theory:

- Red Bull pays off Cosworth F1 with a CC sponsorship.

- Jerry thinks it is his because he had it in Atlantics.

- Kevin "steals" it away for PKV.

- Jerry hates Kevin.

- Dan also hates Kevin for some unknown reason.

- Paul takes advantage.

- Kevin gets outvoted on everything in '07.

- Kevin says, "**** it," and plots the surrender with TG.

Now, given all that, what were Kevin's original intentions? I think he thought he could build a world class series, and as venture capitalist, no doubt he was also building an asset, but also as a newly passionate racer I think he thought he could be building a retirement plan, a la Paul Newman.

Rich guys and their egos make lousy partners.

Wow, you must really want to believe that. The payoff from Red Bull was good enough to sponsor half a car? I mean, the Red Bull car had Gulfstream on the side pods! And the other PKV car was Pay by Touch.

Cheever had cars that looked more like Red Bull sponsored cars than PKV Racing.

GF and DP hate KK. PG doesn't want to go to the IRL and presumably wants CC to continue and they all let the guy they outvoted all of 2007 sell CC to TG?

Your proven theory is far from adding up.

[Insomniac]

So how many here see KK strolling around the speedway this Memorial Day?

Just curious as I hold no ill will toward him.

I'd expect him to be there just like he was at CC races.

[nrc]

I think the tipping point was when hope for more paying events fell through. When Phoenix, San Jose and Las Vegas went by the boards there was just not going to be enough money coming in to maintain status quo. Nothing about those events or the new events that have survived (outside of Edmonton) really gave any hope that they were going to be able to get the circus into another town any time soon.

I don't think that's just Champ car's fault, I think it was the state of open wheel. Tony George talking about a street race in the Caribbean islands is text book "out of suckers with money" marketing (c.f. Champ car in China/Korea, Trans Am in the Carribbean).

I think when KK started looking at cutting costs to keep things within his budget he saw that the resulting product didn't offer much opportunity for turn around. I think Gerry was willing to continue pouring money in to see if Tony would blink first given his own car count issues and the uncertainty with Honda. But without KK willing to ante up for more losses this year and the prospect of losing KK and NHL he could see that the situation was untenable.

[G.]

I'm no Accountant, but I also don't think you can just move the money around that easily. Cosworth money is Cosworth money. I am sure the SEC would take a dim view of KK and Co. pocketing $5M+ and channeling it into their racing team. Isn't that kind of how Menards got in hot water?

Cossie's private. Why would SEC care?

[FTG]

I think that back in 2003 KK really believed that the business could be turned around. Then he found out what every other sane logical business person finds out in OW. With Tony around, you can't run open wheel like a business. The only way you can make money is by taking what Tony is handing out.

The tipping point was when Tony started handing out chassises and engines and KK had to decide whether to match or fold, because if he didn't match there wouldn't be enough cars.

It was probably the right choice. Tony would've just upped the offer. Which is probably what GF decided after taking a long hard look at going without KK.

[FTG]

Cossie's private. Why would SEC care?

As long as your partner doesn't complain, you pay our taxes, and you're not moving money to launder it or avoid taxes, you can move your money between your companies any way you want.

The SEC only gets involved when companies go public and the former owner acts like he still owns the company 100% and still treats it like a private bank.

[mueber]

My guess is that KK thought, “If I can’t outfox TG, I have no business being in business.” Then he found out that GF is a psycho and PG is useless, and that was the good news.

Having thrown tens, if not hundreds, of millions of dollars at it, he decided life is too short and took what he could get from TG. From here he will field a mid-pack team in the IRL, have fun until he finds something that interests him more, and live happily ever after.

I am personally grateful for what he gave us; I just wish it could have worked out.

[dando]

My $.02...I myself think that when the DP01 failed to attract new teams and sponsors, it forced KK to pull the plug sooner rather than later. That plus the 'paying' venue failures with Assen, China, Vega$ and Phoenix. He acquired some assets solid assets in Cozzie and Pi, so he's prolly not bleeding as much as we think, but I think it was pretty clear that CCWS wasn't viable by itself under the original three-year plan. More likely ten years, if at all. Just my supposition.

-Kevin

[robot9000]

Cossie's private. Why would SEC care?

Maybe not the SEC, but there are still regulations and accounting rules. Otherwise there would be nothing to stop a private company from laurdering money. Private does not = no rules, regulations or taxes.

Plus, we really don't have anything to lead us to belive that RB owed Cosworth any money at all.

[Munk]

I think the nature of the "merger" has proven the conspiracy theory:

- Red Bull pays off Cosworth F1 with a CC sponsorship.

- Jerry thinks it is his because he had it in Atlantics.

- Kevin "steals" it away for PKV.

- Jerry hates Kevin.

- Dan also hates Kevin for some unknown reason.

- Paul takes advantage.

- Kevin gets outvoted on everything in '07.

- Kevin says, "**** it," and plots the surrender with TG.

Now, given all that, what were Kevin's original intentions? I think he thought he could build a world class series, and as venture capitalist, no doubt he was also building an asset, but also as a newly passionate racer I think he thought he could be building a retirement plan, a la Paul Newman.

Rich guys and their egos make lousy partners.

Truer words have never been spoken !!!

[Dougrun]

I think honda may have had a hand in this too. KK must have been paid a hefty sum by more than just TG.
It really made no sense whatsoever.

Honda was out if there was no merger.
Dwindling car numbers and no attendance at irl races.
CC had a huge LBGP turnout in 07. They had every reason to think 08 would be better. My guess is KK was offered something he couldn't refuse. Thats the only reason I can see doing it so late in the season. Only money can overshadow
1. destroy CC teams
2. alienate fans
3. dump existing cc sponsors
4. destroy almost the entire CC schedule.

The mistake CC made was letting him be the majority holder. PG and GF did not want this to happen. They may have not had a choice, and maybe the bankruptcy would have been the end of CC back then, but at least it would have been earlier in the season as to avoid most of 1-4 above.

[emjaya]

All the merger talk over the past three years has always been TG (of course) and KK, never Forsythe, always KK.

I've said this before, but whenever an Australian in Champ Car was asked about the split they always said it was bad for business.

I'm begining to think this was all some master plan. Hope it works. :gomer:

[slashman]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Indy
I think the nature of the "merger" has proven the conspiracy theory:

- Red Bull pays off Cosworth F1 with a CC sponsorship.

- Jerry thinks it is his because he had it in Atlantics.

- Kevin "steals" it away for PKV.

- Jerry hates Kevin.

- Dan also hates Kevin for some unknown reason.

- Paul takes advantage.

- Kevin gets outvoted on everything in '07.

- Kevin says, "**** it," and plots the surrender with TG.

Now, given all that, what were Kevin's original intentions? I think he thought he could build a world class series, and as venture capitalist, no doubt he was also building an asset, but also as a newly passionate racer I think he thought he could be building a retirement plan, a la Paul Newman.

Rich guys and their egos make lousy partners.














Truer words have never been spoken !!!





I agree..^^^^^^^ I think this is some what that went down last year...

[Munk]

I think the nature of the "merger" has proven the conspiracy theory:

- Red Bull pays off Cosworth F1 with a CC sponsorship.

- Jerry thinks it is his because he had it in Atlantics.

- Kevin "steals" it away for PKV.

- Jerry hates Kevin.

- Dan also hates Kevin for some unknown reason.

- Paul takes advantage.

- Kevin gets outvoted on everything in '07.

- Kevin says, "**** it," and plots the surrender with TG.

Now, given all that, what were Kevin's original intentions? I think he thought he could build a world class series, and as venture capitalist, no doubt he was also building an asset, but also as a newly passionate racer I think he thought he could be building a retirement plan, a la Paul Newman.

Rich guys and their egos make lousy partners.


All the merger talk over the past three years has always been TG (of course) and KK, never Forsythe, always KK.

I've said this before, but whenever an Australian in Champ Car was asked about the split they always said it was bad for business.

I'm begining to think this was all some master plan. Hope it works. :gomer:

Everyone has always said that the split is bad for business. That really isn't anything new and it certainly isn't just an Australian thing. ;)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Indy
I think the nature of the "merger" has proven the conspiracy theory:

- Red Bull pays off Cosworth F1 with a CC sponsorship.

- Jerry thinks it is his because he had it in Atlantics.

- Kevin "steals" it away for PKV.

- Jerry hates Kevin.

- Dan also hates Kevin for some unknown reason.

- Paul takes advantage.

- Kevin gets outvoted on everything in '07.

- Kevin says, "**** it," and plots the surrender with TG.

Now, given all that, what were Kevin's original intentions? I think he thought he could build a world class series, and as venture capitalist, no doubt he was also building an asset, but also as a newly passionate racer I think he thought he could be building a retirement plan, a la Paul Newman.

Rich guys and their egos make lousy partners.



















I agree..^^^^^^^ I think this is some what that went down last year...


I think it was a huge part of the problem last year.

[nissan gtp]

KK is a guy that knew nothing about racing, failed to surround himself with competent people who did (ref: poledance, johnson), and finally had the good sense to see how screwed up it was. I'd bet the TV thing was the final straw -- that's when he KNEW that what he was doing would not work.

I've had thoughts that this last minute rush-job amalgimation was KK's way to get the kill shot in without giving the other morons a way to drag it out and make it even more f-ed up. Sad thing is, lots of good racing people got hurt, at least short-term.

[pitwall3]

Come on guys, in the final analysis it was the trip to Antarctic and those bloody penguins. :laugh:

[Insomniac]

I think honda may have had a hand in this too. KK must have been paid a hefty sum by more than just TG.
It really made no sense whatsoever.

Honda was out if there was no merger.
Dwindling car numbers and no attendance at irl races.
CC had a huge LBGP turnout in 07. They had every reason to think 08 would be better. My guess is KK was offered something he couldn't refuse. Thats the only reason I can see doing it so late in the season. Only money can overshadow
1. destroy CC teams
2. alienate fans
3. dump existing cc sponsors
4. destroy almost the entire CC schedule.

The mistake CC made was letting him be the majority holder. PG and GF did not want this to happen. They may have not had a choice, and maybe the bankruptcy would have been the end of CC back then, but at least it would have been earlier in the season as to avoid most of 1-4 above.

Yet they refused to do anything helpful with Motegi...

[Andrew Longman]

I'm sorry but I just have a whole lot more interest in smoking meat, Airbus politics, colon cleaning, and cool Youtube post than completing the autopsy of this abortion of a merger.

I care litte about who mode the most money out of it and why. All I know is there is still huge obstacles to this sport being successful and long odds of it happening.

If TG (and really others) shows he will do the things to shorten those odd then there is something to talk about.

Meanwhile, I feel like brisket. :D

[Dr. Corkski]

I think honda may have had a hand in this too. KK must have been paid a hefty sum by more than just TG.
It really made no sense whatsoever.

Honda was out if there was no merger.
Dwindling car numbers and no attendance at irl races.
CC had a huge LBGP turnout in 07. They had every reason to think 08 would be better.Basing an entire series around one well-attended race that nobody saw on TV is a proven formula for success.


My guess is KK was offered something he couldn't refuse. Thats the only reason I can see doing it so late in the season. Only money can overshadow
1. destroy CC teams
2. alienate fans
3. dump existing cc sponsors
4. destroy almost the entire CC schedule.

The mistake CC made was letting him be the majority holder. PG and GF did not want this to happen. They may have not had a choice, and maybe the bankruptcy would have been the end of CC back then, but at least it would have been earlier in the season as to avoid most of 1-4 above.Yeah, it's not like that Kalkhoven guy invested a ton of money in champ car like Paulie Poledance did.

[Munk]

I'm sorry but I just have a whole lot more interest in smoking meat, Airbus politics, colon cleaning, and cool Youtube post than completing the autopsy of this abortion of a merger.

I care litte about who mode the most money out of it and why. All I know is there is still huge obstacles to this sport being successful and long odds of it happening.

If TG (and really others) shows he will do the things to shorten those odd then there is something to talk about.

Meanwhile, I feel like brisket. :D

OK I have to ask... just how does a brisket feel?

[JT265]

Basing an entire series around one well-attended race that nobody saw on TV is a proven formula for success.

Yeah, it's not like that Kalkhoven guy invested a ton of money in champ car like Paulie Poledance did.

SRSLY, that in itself is money. KK, <F-KK, crappie style> sunk tons of cubic $$$ into this deal and was fleeced into giving day to day ops up to someone who has shown he can't operate a two-hole pay crapper at a county fair without huge losses.

Yet OPMPaulie is a freakin HERO?!?!? :eek:

MOTOROCK

Trans-Am

CCWS.

A glowing record indeed.

[Indy]

OK I have to ask... just how does a brisket feel?

Hot, juicy, and tasty. :eek: :laugh:

[Andrew Longman]

OK I have to ask... just how does a brisket feel?

Very tender. :D

[Insomniac]

These conspiracy theories are great. First KK is outvoted in all of 2007 and then he somehow became the majority owner and sold CC out from under GF and PG.

[Racing Truth]

Basing an entire series around one well-attended race that nobody saw on TV is a proven formula for success.

Yeah, it's not like that Kalkhoven guy invested a ton of money in champ car like Paulie Poledance did.

Heh, exactly.

Here are the facts as of Jan. 2008:

Lousy TV, trouble with car counts, bleeding $ from all points (despite protestations to the contrary) and little hope of a breakout led to the buyout. No,,,,,conspiracy needed to,,,,,,,explain that.

[Racing Truth]

These conspiracy theories are great. First KK is outvoted in all of 2007 and then he somehow became the majority owner and sold CC out from under GF and PG.

Jedi mind tricks.:gomer:

[pferrf1]

I think KK decided ot pull the plug at the end of last year when:

Las Vegas had flopped financially. The same promoters killed Phoenix because they were on track for a second financial bloodbath (with deep pocketed promoters). Then Don Listwin pulls the plug on San Jose. Thats three "Festvals of Speed" that were supposed to be the CCWS model that failed. KK knew nothing was going the right way and decided to cut his losses.

There was only 1 buyer out there who would pay anything substantial to these guys to get out and KK made a deal with the logical highest bidder.

[patski]

Hot, juicy, and tasty. :eek: :laugh:

The best there is.

[Ruben Barrios]

- Jerry thinks it is his because he had it in Atlantics.

- Kevin "steals" it away for PKV.

- Jerry hates Kevin.

- Dan also hates Kevin for some unknown reason.

- Paul takes advantage.

- Kevin gets outvoted on everything in '07.

- Kevin says, "**** it," and plots the surrender with TG.


Almost nailed it there Indy...

The Red Bull thing is way out ther in left park...
The rest is very plausible... except the last part...
I would change it to...

- Kevin get outvoted on everything in '06

- GF says "**** it", I wait this guy out...

- Kevin says, "**** it", and stops investing $$$.... No more subsidies

- Fast Forward 2008.... no sponsors, no $$$ no CCWS!!!

[gjc2]

They had a business plan that just didn't work out. They expected to increase the size of the grid and gain interest in the series but they didn't. Both the IRL and Champ Car were looking at smaller fields in '08 than they had in '07 and TG was faced with the possibility of having to field half the grid for the 500 himself. There was no reason to believe things were going to change in the future so it was time to pull the plug and take TG's money. I don't know if things will improve now that there is only one series, but that's TG's problem. I don't have much faith in the future on open wheel racing.