View Full Version : So, does this forum get renamed?
Mike Kellner
03-08-08, 01:49 PM
Now that we're all IndyCar fans, do we hang onto the ChampCar - CART name forever? Shouldn't this be the IndyCar forum now?
Yea, I wanted a different outcome, but we have what we have.
I suspect the CARTification of the IRL will be complete within a few years. That is all Tony ever wanted, CART with him in charge. It is not like CART ever had brilliant leadership that we all are going to miss. At least Tony won't leave to be Team Principal at a backmarker F1 team at the worst possible moment.
mk
PS I was hanging out at the Dolan Brother's Forum, but after a while it just got to be too much. It looks like much of the old gang is here.
Winston Wolfe
03-08-08, 01:56 PM
brother Kellner chimes in from the bunker! :thumbup:
Long time, no time.... and what a time to re-emerge from the confines. Much discussion, many theories and much speculation abound on the demise of our beloved CCWS. KK and the boys have finally given up and our new fearless leader will take us up to, and beyond the 100th anniversary of the event formerly known as the greatest spectacle....
Good to see another one of the "old timers" coming in to pay a visit...
Now that we're all IndyCar fans, do we hang onto the ChampCar - CART name forever? Shouldn't this be the IndyCar forum now?
Yea, I wanted a different outcome, but we have what we have.
I suspect the CARTification of the IRL will be complete within a few years. That is all Tony ever wanted, CART with him in charge. It is not like CART ever had brilliant leadership that we all are going to miss. At least Tony won't leave to be Team Principal at a backmarker F1 team at the worst possible moment.
mk
PS I was hanging out at the Dolan Brother's Forum, but after a while it just got to be too much. It looks like much of the old gang is here.
Check the Feedback Forum. There's a lengthy thread on this discussion. Good to see an old name back around these parts.
-Kevin
Mike Kellner
03-08-08, 02:06 PM
Yea, I was skimming around a bit.
I got worn out on the Civil War a long time ago. I had my side, they had theirs, and it got tedious to keep going at it. It wasn't like any mids were going to be changed by the back and forth.
Now, it's a new game. All CrapWagons - all the time isn't too exciting, but I suspect that if the series starts to recover a bit, that a more interesting mix of cars & motors will appear.
One of the lessons I hope was learned is that NASCAR already has the market for good ol' boy spec oval racing in its bag, and their fans would rather watch the a new NASCAR series for Mini-vans than real racing in real racecars.
Or to put it simply, OW needs to be OW. We can't NASCAR our way into success. It's like trying to sell Whisky to beer drinkers.
mk
Right now, alliances are being formed before the first tribal council which occurs after the first, last and only Champ car race in '08, or any year from now on for that matter.
Kiwifan
03-08-08, 02:48 PM
Good to see you out and about Mike, wondered where you were hangin' all these years after 7G. ;) It all seems so long ago. :cry:
Take care buddy. :thumbup:
Rusty.
Welcome back, Mike.
Personally, I think we should be realistic and accept it for what it is while reserving the right to criticize (plenty of opportunity for that).
I also think that the terms champ car and Indy car are now, in essence, interchangeable. We know the series will be branded Indy Car, but why not hang onto our heritage, too?
Andrew Longman
03-08-08, 03:43 PM
Welcome back, Mike.
Personally, I think we should be realistic and accept it for what it is while reserving the right to criticize (plenty of opportunity for that).
I also think that the terms champ car and Indy car are now, in essence, interchangeable. We know the series will be branded Indy Car, but why not hang onto our heritage, too?
They were called Champ Cars before CART was formed and before anyone called anything Indy Cars. They became somewhat interchangable until TG went and created his own crapwagon spec.
Until the crapwagon spec becomes more champcar like there is some utility if keeping both names around. ;)
Welcome back Mike!
We'll continue to be a forum for champ car enthusiasts. Those who want to discuss Tony's series will be welcome to do that in the appropriate forum.
Even as the politics of the split fade into the past, we feel that "champ car enthusiast" makes the important distinction between those who value the challenge of winning a demanding, diverse open wheel championship series and those who think open wheel racing should be a support series for one oval race in May.
Mike Kellner
03-08-08, 04:24 PM
When I came in the door, they were called "Big Cars", which separated them from Sprint Cars, which had shorter wheelbases. The name is less important than the races they put on.
To reprise what I said in the thread over in Feedback, I want to be an IndyCar fan, but they have to come up with a series that is worth watching. The IRL plus the CCWS teams is still the IRL. Rev limiter IRL races on NASCAR ovals make NASCAR seem interesting.
I really want there to be a good quality US OW series. As of now, the IRL is the only horse there is to ride in that direction. It may not get to where I want to go, but I am willing to give it a chance. I can always get off.
I want people to consider this. The Civil War is over. The IRL and Tony is what we have left. You can walk away and leave US OW to the Gomers, or you can give it a chance. The worst that will happen is it will remain CrapWagon racing at its worst. If that happens, you won't have anything less that what you'll have if you walk away now. The greater the proportion of ex CART fans in the mix, the more likely it is to move towards CART II.
mk
SurfaceUnits
03-08-08, 05:22 PM
^^^get off the wagon, you prolly believe the first question on TG's mind every day is, What do the fans wants?" sheeesh he has already told you what you want.
Mike Kellner
03-08-08, 05:43 PM
I am not suggest anyone sign on for a lifetime of Kool-aid slurping Lemminghood. That sure isn't what I intend to do.
Consider this. Tony never wanted anything other than CART with himself in charge. That was the strategic goal. The rest was all tactics. The CART Rich Boys are back, dominating the series with their high falutin' ways. Road and street courses are coming back. The driver cadre is mostly fruit cuppers. The series could morph into CART II. All the pieces are in place. That would be lots better than nothing, which is the alternative.
Yea, so Tony is a moron. The previous CART management weren't exactly inspirational geniuses.
If it doesn't turn around. If it remains the IRL with some road races thrown in, I can always bail out later. For now, it is worth giving it a chance.
mk
miatanut
03-08-08, 05:53 PM
I want people to consider this. The Civil War is over. The IRL and Tony is what we have left. You can walk away and leave US OW to the Gomers, or you can give it a chance. The worst that will happen is it will remain CrapWagon racing at its worst. If that happens, you won't have anything less that what you'll have if you walk away now. The greater the proportion of ex CART fans in the mix, the more likely it is to move towards CART II.
mk
I will have nothing to do with anything to do with Tony.
If legions of former CART fans stay away, maybe the former CART teams will find where they put their balls and go out on their own again.
The only hope for anything decent to come out of this.
stroker
03-08-08, 05:54 PM
The IRL and Tony is what we have left. You can walk away and leave US OW to the Gomers, or you can give it a chance.
mk
there is a third alternative...
there is a third alternative...
A last minute strategic air strike?
Mike Kellner
03-08-08, 06:01 PM
there is a third alternative...
Wazzat?
A decade of recriminations?
Wishing for a big time OW road racing series to start itself and be wildly successful?
ALMS to be anything other than IMSA?
NASCAR to start a 358 cid stock block OW all oval series?
mk
WickerBill
03-08-08, 06:02 PM
I will have nothing to do with anything to do with Tony.
If legions of former CART fans stay away, maybe the former CART teams will find where they put their balls and go out on their own again.
The only hope for anything decent to come out of this.
Legions of former CART fans? What the heck are you smoking? They're gone, man. GONE. And anyway, as Kellner said, all the big boys were already there in the IRL anyway; they wouldn't notice a single thing if "legions of former CART fans" didn't watch the IRL... because they weren't watching it before.
The 2008 IRL is 1977 USAC, and I watched it then. Hopefully in a couple years, the cars will be different.
Legions of former CART fans? What the heck are you smoking? They're gone, man. GONE. And anyway, as Kellner said, all the big boys were already there in the IRL anyway; they wouldn't notice a single thing if "legions of former CART fans" didn't watch the IRL... because they weren't watching it before.
The 2008 IRL is 1977 USAC, and I watched it then. Hopefully in a couple years, the cars will be different.
:thumbup:
Jag_Warrior
03-08-08, 06:20 PM
Well I'll be a blind, three legged cat. It's Mike Kellner! My girlfriend's uncle's best friend's neighbor's ex-husband was in prison with a guy who said that you got picked up robbing a bank down in South America. Bolivia, I believe it was. Helluva shoot out!
Should we keep it on the down low, QT that you're here? :p
Welcome back.
The Amigos stopped servicing the car over a year ago. It sounded OK only because they loaded the crankcase with sawdust. It was bound to stop anyway. Tony obviously got what was left for the scrap value. So with no more CART or CCWS to entice/bribe, either George gets it right this time, or there will be dark days for AOWR.
I will have nothing to do with anything to do with Tony.
That is the bottom line for some of us. I refuse to reward FTG in any way for what he has done to the sport.
That is the bottom line for some of us. I refuse to reward FTG in any way for what he has done to the sport.
So you're really never going to watch again, no matter what, as long as the Hulman family is involved?
there is a third alternative...
Wazzat?
A decade of recriminations?
If you call spending my time on things that I have an interest in "recriminations" I suppose so. I'm just not interested in the product as it stands today. The notion that patronizing it in spite of that will somehow improve things seems unrealistic to me.
When Ford stopped making cars we enjoyed we stopped buying Fords. Why is that such a strange concept?
So you're really never going to watch again, no matter what, as long as the Hulman family is involved?
For my part, I'd rather not contribute to anything that will benefit Tony George for what he's done to the sport. But I'm not going to cut off my nose to spite my face so I wouldn't decline to watch something oni TV that I'd actually enjoy. I expect that paying for a ticket will be pretty hard to swallow for a long time to come even if the product does improve.
So you're really never going to watch again, no matter what, as long as the Hulman family is involved?
That's the plan for now.
I don't believe, as some seem to, that the earl is going to somehow get better. IMO FTG doesn't want the series to get better. All he cares about is his little race in May. No thanks.
Welcome back Mike! I'm somewhere between you and Richard on this deal. GADZOOKS!!! DOES THAT MAKE ME A BRICKY CLONE?!?!?!?:saywhat:
Seriously, if somewhere down the road this becomes CART II, the sequel, I'll likely tune in. While I agree that Tony George is a doofus, I've never had a warm and fuzzy for Bernie Ecclestone either, yet that doesn't stop me from following F1.
Mike Kellner
03-08-08, 08:25 PM
By decade of recrimination I mean; I do you want to spend your time talking about racing, or continuing to go on about the split.
I prefer the racing we have to squawking about what we don't have.
I plan to give it a chance. What new formula they announce in the next year will tell if we are going to return to a real racing formula or have a continuation of spec racing. If there is no new formula announced by Indy 09, or if the new formula is another spec series, I will likely walk away. But until we hit that moment, I am willing to see what they have to offer.
mk
Hot Rod Otis
03-08-08, 08:44 PM
I am not suggest anyone sign on for a lifetime of Kool-aid slurping Lemminghood. That sure isn't what I intend to do.
Consider this. Tony never wanted anything other than CART with himself in charge. That was the strategic goal. The rest was all tactics. The CART Rich Boys are back, dominating the series with their high falutin' ways. Road and street courses are coming back. The driver cadre is mostly fruit cuppers. The series could morph into CART II. All the pieces are in place. That would be lots better than nothing, which is the alternative.
Yea, so Tony is a moron. The previous CART management weren't exactly inspirational geniuses.
If it doesn't turn around. If it remains the IRL with some road races thrown in, I can always bail out later. For now, it is worth giving it a chance.
mk
My feelings exactly. I could care less now who's running the show. I'm a fan of the RACING, not the front office. Yep, Tony's a few bricks shy of a full load but KK GF & friends weren't any better, and
neither was Pook, Heitzler, Rahal, Craig, Frasco, Stokkan and whoever else happened to run CART for any length of time. I'm ready to give it a shot, because I agree that CART II is only a few years away. If not, then bye bye.
SurfaceUnits
03-08-08, 09:13 PM
Welcome to your gomer future:
iUR5XXIDnhU
Welcome back Mike! I'm somewhere between you and Richard on this deal. GADZOOKS!!! DOES THAT MAKE ME A BRICKY CLONE?!?!?!?:saywhat:
Seriously, if somewhere down the road this becomes CART II, the sequel, I'll likely tune in. While I agree that Tony George is a doofus, I've never had a warm and fuzzy for Bernie Ecclestone either, yet that doesn't stop me from following F1.
:thumbup: :thumbup:
I'm closer to klang and nrc than anything else, but, really, it's because of the cars. Momentum racing is really stupid. I think I've given up on the ftg crap, but it all depends on how bad he ****s up the next few years.
MOMENTUM RACING IS REALLY STUPID. In CART, USAC, NASCAR, earl, whatever.
And **** Scooter Goodyear.:flame:
By decade of recrimination I mean; I do you want to spend your time talking about racing, or continuing to go on about the split.
I prefer the racing we have to squawking about what we don't have.
I plan to give it a chance. What new formula they announce in the next year will tell if we are going to return to a real racing formula or have a continuation of spec racing. If there is no new formula announced by Indy 09, or if the new formula is another spec series, I will likely walk away. But until we hit that moment, I am willing to see what they have to offer.
mkThe Split's over. Not much more to say.
A lot of fans are willing to walk away until we see what they have to offer. Then they might come back. Maybe.
Different reaction to the same feelings, I guess.
(but I do want to take the boys to the Mile...)
nissan gtp
03-08-08, 10:01 PM
The Split's over. Not much more to say.
A lot of fans are willing to walk away until we see what they have to offer. Then they might come back. Maybe.
Different reaction to the same feelings, I guess.
(but I do want to take the boys to the Mile...)
I'm waiting to see what happens.... then I'll decide to walk or not.
cameraman
03-08-08, 10:08 PM
My feelings exactly. I could care less now who's running the show...
...I'm ready to give it a shot, because I agree that CART II is only a few years away.
Mebbe so. In that case I'll come back.
BUT until that happens I'm not wasting a second watching Dallara Indy-sleds.
^^^get off the wagon, you prolly believe the first question on TG's mind every day is, What do the fans wants?" sheeesh he has already told you what you want.
"We're not going to convince everybody that we have the best intentions for open-wheel racing at heart. There will always be those (fans) who won't be dragged along without kicking and screaming." - The Idiot Grandson
And some won't be dragged anywhere.
KaBoom21
03-08-08, 10:18 PM
Wow - Mike Kellner is here. Is DaveL next? I learned a whole lot about open-wheel racing from you guys at SpeedNet and 7G.
Fun fact: I was leaving Wrigley Field after a Cubs game a couple of years back. Probably had a few too many beers and, as I passed Yahkzee's, who do I see sitting in the beer garden but Bobby Rahal. My mouthy side got the best of me and I yelled "thanks for ruining CART!" I didn't know what else to say at that point so I yelled "sic semper tyrannus, long live Kellner!" and walked away.
He gave me the biggest WTF look I've ever seen (deservedly so).
eiregosod
03-08-08, 11:16 PM
And some won't be dragged anywhere.
you know that FTG foresaw that in his visions :tony:
who knows what way Indy-style will go. If it still wants to be a poor imitation of NASCAR or if it wants to be IndyCar. Somehow I think FTG will want to be a poor imitation of NASCAR
miatanut
03-08-08, 11:40 PM
Legions of former CART fans? What the heck are you smoking? They're gone, man. GONE. And anyway, as Kellner said, all the big boys were already there in the IRL anyway; they wouldn't notice a single thing if "legions of former CART fans" didn't watch the IRL... because they weren't watching it before.
The 2008 IRL is 1977 USAC, and I watched it then. Hopefully in a couple years, the cars will be different.
That's why they are former. If they stay gone, then the teams will start to wonder why they aren't coming back. After all, the split is over, right?
1977 USAC was actually a lot better than what we have now. Several different chassis. Mostly Offy's, but a couple other engines in the mix as well. I don't remember if '77 was before or after Firestone went off in a huff, but if it's before, then there were two tires, too. The only thing now better than '77 is road and street courses on the schedule.
miatanut
03-08-08, 11:47 PM
So you're really never going to watch again, no matter what, as long as the Hulman family is involved?
Last Indy I watched was '91, because I couldn't stand the Hulman/George clan's ghoulish attitude about driver safety. It was nice to have some company after Tony started the split.
WickerBill
03-08-08, 11:54 PM
Still think you're a bit of a nutter to think that the teams give two shakes about old fans. If they did, they would have never left CART. They don't care about the average fan, and they positively LOATHE the hardliners/extremists.
But no more arguments from me; I'll do my best not to talk about it anymore.
stroker
03-09-08, 12:08 AM
That's why they are former. If they stay gone, then the teams will start to wonder why they aren't coming back. After all, the split is over, right?
1977 USAC was actually a lot better than what we have now. Several different chassis. Mostly Offy's, but a couple other engines in the mix as well. I don't remember if '77 was before or after Firestone went off in a huff, but if it's before, then there were two tires, too. The only thing now better than '77 is road and street courses on the schedule.
In 1977 we had somewhere to go--they hadn't reached the limits of the cars or the speedway at that point. Now we're just trying to put lipstick on the pig nicely enough that an adequate crowd will show up and tune in on the TV. It's a fundamentally different ballgame, and Tonyball has always been (and most of us seem to agree) will always be crap.
Personally, I am sick of hearing the FTG stuff. Do you know that the CCWS employees were not paid their severance prior to the bankruptcy, so now they have no income and can't even draw unemployment? So someone is going to have to explain to me how bad Tony George is that he gets the royal ******* award for taking away our favorite hobby while the owners of the series we all praised have shown themselves to have all the ethics of petty thieves. The truth is that if there is an honest man in any sort of ownership position in this sport, I have not yet met him, so **** them all.
It is all about product and personal preferences. Principles have nothing to do with it.
For the love of god....they're building this "unified" series upon the FAILED IRL platform. You know, the "Come on take a ride with me" and "you had to be there" marketing FLOPS. I'm embarassed to even be remotely connected to this "unified" sport. Did you watch the press conference? THAT'S the new direction.....same as the old direction; OUT OF TOUCH.
Just name it the "Disenfranchised American Open Wheel Fan Forum". This IRL scrapple is ripe for criticism the moment it started and I can't wait until the season starts to begin picking it apart. Flying cars were at an alltime high last year so we've got lots to discuss.
cameraman
03-09-08, 12:53 AM
Personally, I am sick of hearing the FTG stuff.
He is solely responsible for open wheel racing looking and sounding like this:
http://cache.viewimages.com/xc/2911304.jpg?v=1&c=ViewImages&k=2&d=17A4AD9FDB9CF1934A2752006EF5F0EDC6A39E733FA5FF92 5A5397277B4DC33E
He richly deserves every iota of hate aimed at him.
1977 USAC was actually a lot better than what we have now. Several different chassis. Mostly Offy's, but a couple other engines in the mix as well.
There was a lot of diversity in the chassis department back then, but a lot of that diversity was either well past its sell by date or crap. Those good old days included teams run out of a disused one-bay gas station next to the owner's bowling alley. I had a lot of fun back then sweeping the garage floor and being the gofer, but the racing was a lot better about a decade later.
Sean Malone
03-09-08, 01:25 AM
Cool thread. Hi Mike. It's been awhile. :thumbup:
(The Hobbit in '10!!!)
miatanut
03-09-08, 01:56 AM
In 1977 we had somewhere to go--they hadn't reached the limits of the cars or the speedway at that point. Now we're just trying to put lipstick on the pig nicely enough that an adequate crowd will show up and tune in on the TV. It's a fundamentally different ballgame, and Tonyball has always been (and most of us seem to agree) will always be crap.
There's only one change needed to get back to where there's "somewhere to go". Cut aero downforce to less than half current levels. Straightaway speeds will go up. Cornering speeds will go down. Instantly drivers will be back to lifting on ovals. Average lap of 220 on a superspeedway will be back to being a major goal.
The problem isn't limits. It's Hulman/George leadership. Just as it was the problem back in '77. I was elated when I first read the White Paper. It meant there was hope for the sport.
Now things are back to no hope.
miatanut
03-09-08, 02:00 AM
There was a lot of diversity in the chassis department back then, but a lot of that diversity was either well past its sell by date or crap. Those good old days included teams run out of a disused one-bay gas station next to the owner's bowling alley. I had a lot of fun back then sweeping the garage floor and being the gofer, but the racing was a lot better about a decade later.
The gas station cars were by design. The Hulman/George clan wanted a good 'ole boy to have a chance to win "The Big One". The Hulman/George clan and the :gomer:s are still caught up in the hope some good 'ole boy will have a chance to win the big one.
So they have set the sport back 30 years.
You'll never get any argument from me that CART brought the best racing ever. :thumbup: My point is that currently things are even worse than they were under the dark days of USAC. Ten years ago I would never have imagined that.
miatanut
03-09-08, 02:17 AM
It is all about product and personal preferences. Principles have nothing to do with it.
I don't think so. I have been asking myself if they dumped the rear wings, made the cars into tail-happy beasts, brought back lifting and even braking on ovals, increased braking distances on road courses, made it so the cars could follow nose-to-tail anywhere on a track, make the cars look good, made the cars sound good, made sure the cars and circuits were safe, had several different kinds of engines (not just different brands of the same spec), had multiple chassis, had multiple tires, ran road courses, ran a temporary circuit or two, properly promoted the other races on the schedule, and had fields of 28 cars at every race, but Tony George was still in control, would I watch?
I think my honest answer is that at that point I would cave in. Even though I can't stand him, I would conclude that he had made all the right moves for the sport and it would be time to let it go. If the product was back to being that good, what would be the point of continuing my boycott? I would have gotten what I wanted, and what I think is the right result for the sport. If all that happened, I would no longer have a reason to think Tony was a bad guy. Yes, he would have made serious mistakes early in his career, but he would have made good on it.
I currently have no reason to believe that stuff will happen, because all the evidence I've seen says this has all really been about Tony's ego. Not a "vision" for the sport. I can't accept one person bringing down a sport that once employed tens of thousands simply for an ego trip. The fact the product is so bad just makes it easy to continue to boycott.
Is that preferences or principles?
I don't think so. I have been asking myself if they dumped the rear wings, made the cars into tail-happy beasts, brought back lifting and even braking on ovals, increased braking distances on road courses, made it so the cars could follow nose-to-tail anywhere on a track, make the cars look good, made the cars sound good, made sure the cars and circuits were safe, had several different kinds of engines (not just different brands of the same spec), had multiple chassis, had multiple tires, ran road courses, ran a temporary circuit or two, properly promoted the other races on the schedule, and had fields of 28 cars at every race, but Tony George was still in control, would I watch?
I think my honest answer is that at that point I would cave in. Even though I can't stand him, I would conclude that he had made all the right moves for the sport and it would be time to let it go. If the product was back to being that good, what would be the point of continuing my boycott? I would have gotten what I wanted, and what I think is the right result for the sport. If all that happened, I would no longer have a reason to think Tony was a bad guy. Yes, he would have made serious mistakes early in his career, but he would have made good on it.
I currently have no reason to believe that stuff will happen, because all the evidence I've seen says this has all really been about Tony's ego. Not a "vision" for the sport. I can't accept one person bringing down a sport that once employed tens of thousands simply for an ego trip. The fact the product is so bad just makes it easy to continue to boycott.
Is that preferences or principles?
Better get ready then, because that is where it is going
EDwardo
03-09-08, 04:32 AM
Now that we're all IndyCar fans... we have what we have...
No need for insults. ;)
And what I have is absolutely no desire to follow Tonys' product.
But hey, even though I don't know you but have read your posts for years, welcome back.
:)
Insomniac
03-09-08, 10:31 AM
Personally, I am sick of hearing the FTG stuff. Do you know that the CCWS employees were not paid their severance prior to the bankruptcy, so now they have no income and can't even draw unemployment? So someone is going to have to explain to me how bad Tony George is that he gets the royal ******* award for taking away our favorite hobby while the owners of the series we all praised have shown themselves to have all the ethics of petty thieves. The truth is that if there is an honest man in any sort of ownership position in this sport, I have not yet met him, so **** them all.
It is all about product and personal preferences. Principles have nothing to do with it.
Yes, because everyone around here is (and has been) praising the amigos for so long now. :rolleyes:
FTG != Praise for KK, GF, PG and DP
Sorry, Insomniac. I think I was ranting at the hard core koolaiders in general, not just this forum.
SurfaceUnits
03-09-08, 04:35 PM
Product Spotter in T-3: "Product sucks, still sucks, still sucks."
Racing Truth
03-09-08, 07:02 PM
As everyone knows;) , I've been something of a CC-leaning fencesitter for awhile. I never have, and never will, be a fan of Tony George. We all know the reasons.
But not being completed blinded by excessive loyalty(Let me add, OC has always been an honest, non-Kool Aid board.:thumbup: ) gave me this perspective: All those who currently do or would like to run this sport are a-holes. Simple as that.
And while there are degrees (TGeorge and Poledance live in their own realms), it doesn't change the fact that NO ONE in the upper management of this sport is worth giving my loyalty or admiration.
I fully understand the "I'll never watch a Hulman-George product" line. He did, after all, start this. I just hope that those who follow this path don't try too hard to defend other potential leaders. These people are not worth your time.
Of course, something can still succeed in spite of those who are in authority. So, I, too, will see what happens with ICS. Why? Well, there's just something compelling to me on the days when this sport delivers, moments when, just briefly, TGeorge, Kevin Kalkhoven, etc. are just names. I want to see if the sport can improve and move on to something better.
Maybe it won't (Walker leaving is a bad sign), but I'll know that in time.
As for OC, just use Others, and keep this forum for memories and posterity.
Insomniac
03-09-08, 08:03 PM
Sorry, Insomniac. I think I was ranting at the hard core koolaiders in general, not just this forum.
No problem, just pointing out most here do have a grasp on reality. :)
miatanut
03-09-08, 09:21 PM
I fully understand the "I'll never watch a Hulman-George product" line. He did, after all, start this. I just hope that those who follow this path don't try too hard to defend other potential leaders. These people are not worth your time.
Agreed! :thumbup: Some of us have been smacking the "Amigos" around for a while at Smack.
Looking for a new Gurney, and he's proving very elusive.
I will give it a chance; I will not buy into the Indy hysteria/propaganda.
Lizzerd
03-16-08, 12:12 AM
When I was a child old enough to save up a quarter for a pack of baseball cards and a slab of bad bubble gum in the 60's, then through the 70's and 80's until 1994, I could have recited much of the starting lineups and pitching rotations of most of the Major League Baseball teams. I loved it. Baseball consumed my spring and summer thoughts and activities. All on a par with my love and interest in racing.
After the third player's strike/owner lockout in the previous 10 years or so in '94 that cancelled the World Series, I gave up on MLB. I still knew that baseball is a beautiful game, one that I have competed and excelled in on a high level, but I just lost interest at the time because of the squabbling amongst the players, team owners, and league management. It took many years for me to get back into the great game of baseball at my previous level, but I did.
You may have noticed (and I saw a thread about this) that I haven't been around here or any where else for a while. Well, it's because I feel much the same about AOWR now as I did for baseball in '94. It saddens me that the village idiot is in charge. Actually, it more than saddens me, it angers me.
I'll keep an eye on it in a morbid curiosity sort of way, but you'll likely not find me camping for a three day weekend just to park my butt on an aluminum seat for three hours on a Sunday to watch a roundy-round. Even having Mid-Ohio "back" now doesn't really appeal to me right now.
good to hear from you, Lizzerd.
Andrew Longman
03-16-08, 10:46 AM
good to hear from you, Lizzerd.
Ditto
oddlycalm
03-17-08, 03:56 AM
Nice to see you here Lizzerd. What hasn't changed is the quality of the folks that were drawn together by CART. Hope we'll see you here more often, racing or not.
oc
RacinM3
03-20-08, 01:00 AM
By decade of recrimination I mean; I do you want to spend your time talking about racing, or continuing to go on about the split.
I prefer the racing we have to squawking about what we don't have.
I plan to give it a chance. What new formula they announce in the next year will tell if we are going to return to a real racing formula or have a continuation of spec racing. If there is no new formula announced by Indy 09, or if the new formula is another spec series, I will likely walk away. But until we hit that moment, I am willing to see what they have to offer.
mk
Why? What passes for open wheel now automatically deserves my support regardless of the fact that the cars and the racing suck? And I'm supposed to support it how? By watching it on TV and justifying their ad revenue (or buy-time expenditure as the case may be)? By spending my hard-earned cash going to races in person?
F-that. Been there, did it. Traveled to many races back before these morons f-ed up the sport. I did my part. I feel no responsibility to help keep USOW on the map.
That responsibility is now in TG's hands, and the hands of his lackeys. It's up to them to put a product on the track that justifies my time and money. The current product does not do that thus it deserves neither.
If it means USOW disappear from the face of the earth so be it.
You've got it backwards Kellner. Create a good, compelling product, and the fans will come. That's not recrimination, it's Business 101.
I'm also an original SpeedNet dude and am putting the ownership stuff aside. I have consistently hammered on TG's powerplay from the beginning and called for his resignation, but I also called out our series on the "new engine specification" fiasco, the pop-off valve controversy, the removal of Michigan from the sched, the lack of serious testing at Texas, etc. Our string of leaders has been an embarrassment, but none have come close to the ineptness of TG.
Whatever, I'm going to enjoy the racing and hope that the sponsors come running, the chassis makers and engine manufacturers get their toes in and we enjoy some great years ahead.
JLMannin
03-25-08, 08:50 PM
Looking for a new Gurney, and he's proving very elusive.
I did not read Gurney's white paper until 1994 - After reading it, I was able to see very clearly how the series of events that played out after that lead to me becoming aware that "Indycars" raced anywhere else other than Indy and me becoming a avid fan of CART.
The split was painful for me, as a sport I loved was being laid to ruin due to an ego trip. I still resent that, and thus, I will cast a very weary, skeptical eye towards the IRL. If the unimaginable happens and the IRL transforms into what CART was before the split, I will be an avid fan. As for now, I am not willing to give TG the benefit of the doubt.
Ragarding White Paper II - realistically, we are a couple of decades away from that.
I did not read Gurney's white paper until 1994 - After reading it, I was able to see very clearly how the series of events that played out after that lead to me becoming aware that "Indycars" raced anywhere else other than Indy and me becoming a avid fan of CART.
The split was painful for me, as a sport I loved was being laid to ruin due to an ego trip. I still resent that, and thus, I will cast a very weary, skeptical eye towards the IRL. If the unimaginable happens and the IRL transforms into what CART was before the split, I will be an avid fan. As for now, I am not willing to give TG the benefit of the doubt.
Ragarding White Paper II - realistically, we are a couple of decades away from that.
Good post. Frankly, I just don't see anyone currently involved with AOW being able to string together a cogent white paper like that. Me thinks it's just a lost cause, unfortunately. :(
-Kevin
miatanut
03-26-08, 12:16 AM
Good post. Frankly, I just don't see anyone currently involved with AOW being able to string together a cogent white paper like that. Me thinks it's just a lost cause, unfortunately. :(
-Kevin
Gurney and the White Paper were likely once in a lifetime. Fortunately, he provided a pretty good script which doesn't need a lot of tweaking. The source of the problem hasn't changed. But who could bring everybody together again? Gurney presumably wants to enjoy retirement, not get involved in that mess again. It recently occurred to me that Paul Newman is probably enough respected by the other team owners, and a good enough businessman, that he might be able to lead a negotiation if there were some young grunts to do the busywork. He seems to still have a passion for the sport.
Beyond that, I don't see anybody who gives me hope.
miatanut
03-26-08, 12:22 AM
I did not read Gurney's white paper until 1994 - After reading it, I was able to see very clearly how the series of events that played out after that lead to me becoming aware that "Indycars" raced anywhere else other than Indy and me becoming a avid fan of CART.
The split was painful for me, as a sport I loved was being laid to ruin due to an ego trip. I still resent that, and thus, I will cast a very weary, skeptical eye towards the IRL. If the unimaginable happens and the IRL transforms into what CART was before the split, I will be an avid fan. As for now, I am not willing to give TG the benefit of the doubt.
Ragarding White Paper II - realistically, we are a couple of decades away from that.
I think you are right. It blew me away when key CART teams went running back into the arms of the enemy. I would like to think everybody will learn their lesson once and for all about letting IMS ownership control the entire sport, but if the teams ever do regain control of their destiny, it will probably just be another generation before some new idiots screw it up again. :(
Warlock!
03-26-08, 08:17 AM
Just saw this thread, and I'd like to thank nrc for stating my opinions so eloquently. I'da just said FAOW... until it changes dramatically.
"But it will only change if we all band together and make it stronger!"
Tough s***. I'm not gonna waste my time supporting TG hoping that he'll make everything like it was in the early-mid nineties. If a lot of you wanna do that... fine. That's your call and I hope everything works out for ya. I'll just do other things I enjoy (well... the things my wife allows) until I get an itch that the New and Improved IRL can scratch. Right now, however, I'm not itching... and I've even got one of those little hands on a stick for those hard to reach areas if one starts.
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