Four Hours at Best Buy – Speaker Hunting [blog]

[Sean Malone]

My wife and I decided that our aging home theater system needed freshening up.
Current system consists of an older Technics (since out of business. I believe Panasonic absorbed them) which still has a good rep amongst audioguys. It has a .09% THD which is pretty good considering it is six years old. Today’s top end models get down to the .04% THD. It runs DD 5.1 and DTS and is 500 total watts. I’m running all my audio via optical.

Speakers; single 10”, 140w peak Yamaha bookshelf speakers. At the time our TV room was fairly small and these were ‘bang for the buck’ speakers. Dual 5” 140w peak Yamaha center channel, 8“ 300w Yamaha subwoofer and two small Yamaha wall mounted rears.

It has served its purpose and it is capable of shaking the room. The thing is that now our family room is three times the size it was in VA, with tile floors and 12’ ceilings. We’ve noticed that the sound is getting ‘lost’ and in order to fill the room we need to pump it up more which really starts to show the limitations of the speakers.

So, we went down to Best Buy who has what they call their “Magnolia” audio store of receivers/speakers. A knowledgeable speaker ‘expert’ listened to my story, took me into their studio room and gave us a tour of their speakers. He immediately said we would benefit the most from floor speakers. We listened to three different sets of Klipsh (who I have a bad taste of from a set of PC speakers I got from them years ago). They have a rep for being too bass heavy. From the Klipsch we quickly went through some mid priced JBL’s and Yamaha’s and then ended up at the two sets of electro magnetic Martin/Logan’s. His best set of M/L’s were pretty impressive and our ‘expert’ informed us that these were the only two speakers in the entire store that are actually considered true ‘entry level high end’ (as opposed to actual high end that can cost upwards of 80 grand). They ran $6800 for the set of six (two mains, center, two rears and the sub.). I was impressed with them. They had incredible clarity, brilliant highs without being harsh, pronounced bass without being muddy or there just for the sake of bass if you know what I mean. They reminded me of studio monitors with how punchy they were. The only negative is that I would have to get a new receiver and electro magnetic are really designed for listening while sitting. Stand up and it’s like you put ear muffs on.

For $2300 for a set of six, the next best he had was the top of the line Klipsch. They weren’t bad, but the highs weren’t as vibrant and the lows were a tad too muddy and it didn’t have much midrange punch, but the price is right. Plus I could squeeze a little more life out of my current receiver (the expert guy said he was running an 8 year old Kenwood receiver) if I got the Klipsch.

The thing I liked about the employee guy is that we agreed on two main issues…wattage is irrelevant (all of the speakers he showed me were in the 100 to 160w range) and the audio is at least half of the home theater experience. He told me that every day he hears from people who say “but that costs twice as much as my big screen HDTV!!”. To watch a movie on a big screen TV without surround sound is like driving a Ferrari on bicycle tires. I have many friends and family that have newer large screen HDTV’s that only use the TV speakers. I cry for them.

That said, I’m no audiophile. Being a longtime musician makes me appreciates good hardware and I know what I like when I hear it but years of playing out of full Marshall stacks in clubs the size of most people’s two car garage has left me with permanent tinnitus and burned out highs. It is my experience most musicians (at least rockers) aren’t audiophiles.

After some debating and my wife telling me we just HAD to get the Martin/Logan’s (she equates price with quality to a fault), we left empty handed.
So basically I’m interested what anyone here has to say about the systems they have or would like to have. I’m really into ‘bang for your buck’ kinda stuff. On the way out of the store we stopped by the speaker section in the main part of Best Buy where they had their ‘budget’ speakers. Basically, floor speakers with cheap cabinets and speakers that sound like they have built in reverb (very strange) that ran about $450 a pair and $350 for a large, open designed subwoofer. I’m thinking about just piecing in a good quality subwoofer and letting it go at that for awhile.
Suggestions?

[KLang]

Find a real audio/video/home theater store. :)

There are many more choices then what you have listed. At various price points. We bought our current B&W setup at a smaller Florida chain who's name escapes me at the moment. The better stores might let you take samples home to listen to in your home. Trade-in's is another option a smaller retailer might offer. I traded up subs several times until I found what I liked.

I almost bought Martin Login's many years ago. Fine speakers. I ended up buying PSB instead.

[dando]

Dude, BBY? :saywhat: I mean srsly?!? :irked: OK...I'm over that now.

First off, the environment you have is going to cause some issues (tile floor, open space, etc.). You really need to go to a shop that will allow you to borrow a set overnight to audition. It's been awhile since I bought speaks, but I really like Pinnacle, Atlantic Technology, NHT, and Paradigm when I auditioned some a few years ago. Paradigm might be a tad pricey now (they are a Canuckistan corp). Of course PSB, B&W, and Vandersteens were very nice, but much more pricey (like the M-Ls).

Make a trip up north and check out our local piece of AV heaven:

http://www.progressiveaudio.com/

:)

-Kevin

[Sean O'Gorman]

He told me that every day he hears from people who say “but that costs twice as much as my big screen HDTV!!”. To watch a movie on a big screen TV without surround sound is like driving a Ferrari on bicycle tires. I have many friends and family that have newer large screen HDTV’s that only use the TV speakers. I cry for them.

You mean the same people who buy an $1800 HDTV, but don't watch HD programming on it because 1) Cables cost $50 (no they don't) and 2) HD programming is an extra $5-10 a month?

[Insomniac]

When I was looking around, I liked Home Theater Direct.

http://www.htd.com/

You can try the stuff in home for 30 days at no cost. (But if you're looking for towers, you would have to eat the cost of shipping them back.)

In the end, I felt the speakers were too big for what I was looking for, so I'm back to looking for on-wall speakers.

[Sean Malone]

You mean the same people who buy an $1800 HDTV, but don't watch HD programming on it because 1) Cables cost $50 (no they don't) and 2) HD programming is an extra $5-10 a month?

My brother in law. He's had a 50" DLP for four years and NEVER has had a HD source plugged into it. :shakehead

[dando]

http://nhthifi.com/
http://www.pinnaclespeakers.com/
http://www.paradigm.com/
http://www.psbspeakers.com/
http://www.atlantictechnology.com/
http://www.bowers-wilkins.com/

And of course avsforums.com. I'd spend more time looking for speaks than I would a car. ;)

-Kevin

[Sean Malone]

http://nhthifi.com/
http://www.pinnaclespeakers.com/
http://www.paradigm.com/
http://www.psbspeakers.com/
http://www.atlantictechnology.com/
http://www.bowers-wilkins.com/

And of course avsforums.com. I'd spend more time looking for speaks than I would a car. ;)

-Kevin

So obviously you wouldn't give the cheapies a thought. So basically it comes down to how much am I willing to shell out. I was close to getting the Klipsch for $2300 but they just didn't have the clarity that the M/L's had.

[dando]

So obviously you wouldn't give the cheapies a thought. So basically it comes down to how much am I willing to shell out. I was close to getting the Klipsch for $2300 but they just didn't have the clarity that the M/L's had.

Never been a fan of Klipsch. Just too boomy for my taste. Sam's used to carry them. 'nuff said. :thumdown:

-Kevin

[cameraman]

I was close to getting the Klipsch for $2300 but they just didn't have the clarity that the M/L's had. Unless they are in your house you have no idea what they sound like.

[Sean Malone]

great stuff guys. I had no idea there were places that would let you try them before you buy them.

Exaclty what I need. :thumbup: I don't have a great ear, but I know what sounds like crap.

[KLang]

NHT :thumbup: That is my bedroom system these days.

[oddlycalm]

IMO the Martin Logans are a waste of money for HT and they require silly amounts of power. Keep your Technics electronics and get a set of NHT, PSB or similar and some area rugs with thick pads to help tame the hard surfaces. Maybe even a wall hanging with a pad behind it.

You have a room with a lot of hard surfaces and dolby digital/dts is ice cold and hard sounding. I'd look for the warmest sounding speakers you can find as they will wear well over time. Klipsch is a horn speaker and is about as barking bright as speakers get. Very efficient and great for PA systems, but they make female vocalists sound like they went to cheerleading camp.

BTW, THD distortion specs are a red herring and a figment of Asian specsmanship. Reason is that even order distortion of > 1% actually sounds good (euphonic) while even very low odd order distortion can cause fatigue.

BTW #2, the Magnolia "stores within a store" at Best Buy are an admission by BB management that they can't do A/V credibly. Magnolia is a regional A/V chain in the Northwest that handles mid-upper mid range equipment and is very customer friendly. Magnolia is only in a few BB stores at this point but they are spending huge money to roll this out nationally. So far my read is that they have a long way to go to duplicate the experience you get in an existing Magnolia store, but it's a huge step up from what BB has done in the past.

oc

[Sean Malone]

IMO the Martin Logans are a waste of money for HT and they require silly amounts of power. Keep your Technics electronics and get a set of NHT, PSB or similar and some area rugs with thick pads to help tame the hard surfaces. Maybe even a wall hanging with a pad behind it.

You have a room with a lot of hard surfaces and dolby digital/dts is ice cold and hard sounding. I'd look for the warmest sounding speakers you can find as they will wear well over time. Klipsch is a horn speaker and is about as barking bright as speakers get. Very efficient and great for PA systems, but they make female vocalists sound like they went to cheerleading camp.

BTW, THD distortion specs are a red herring and a figment of Asian specsmanship. Reason is that even order distortion of > 1% actually sounds good (euphonic) while even very low odd order distortion can cause fatigue.

BTW #2, the Magnolia "stores within a store" at Best Buy are an admission by BB management that they can't do A/V credibly. Magnolia is a regional A/V chain in the Northwest that handles mid-upper mid range equipment and is very customer friendly. Magnolia is only in a few BB stores at this point but they are spending huge money to roll this out nationally. So far my read is that they have a long way to go to duplicate the experience you get in an existing Magnolia store, but it's a huge step up from what BB has done in the past.

oc

yeah, I didn't quite understand the top M/L's that he was showing me. They were powered but needed a robust receiver on top of it. the sub was the best sounding sub in the store but the guy told me it was the only true 'enclosed' sub they offered.
I know what you mean about the Magnolia project. It was nice to be able to hear things away from the cacophony of the store floor but they really didn't have much varity. Only three brands of floor tower speakers, Klipsch, M/L's and something like Definitive.

[dando]

IMO the Martin Logans are a waste of money for HT and they require silly amounts of power. Keep your Technics electronics and get a set of NHT, PSB or similar and some area rugs with thick pads to help tame the hard surfaces. Maybe even a wall hanging with a pad behind it.

You have a room with a lot of hard surfaces and dolby digital/dts is ice cold and hard sounding. I'd look for the warmest sounding speakers you can find as they will wear well over time. Klipsch is a horn speaker and is about as barking bright as speakers get. Very efficient and great for PA systems, but they make female vocalists sound like they went to cheerleading camp.

BTW, THD distortion specs are a red herring and a figment of Asian specsmanship. Reason is that even order distortion of > 1% actually sounds good (euphonic) while even very low odd order distortion can cause fatigue.

BTW #2, the Magnolia "stores within a store" at Best Buy are an admission by BB management that they can't do A/V credibly. Magnolia is a regional A/V chain in the Northwest that handles mid-upper mid range equipment and is very customer friendly. Magnolia is only in a few BB stores at this point but they are spending huge money to roll this out nationally. So far my read is that they have a long way to go to duplicate the experience you get in an existing Magnolia store, but it's a huge step up from what BB has done in the past.

oc

Well put, oc.

For full disclosure, I have an Atlantic Tech 250.1 set in my theater room, and a set of Pinnacle Classic Golds in the family room. The Pinnacles are the best bang for the buck speaks I auditioned ~8 years or so ago. I can't speak for their more recent systems. Paradigm was excellent, but a bit more pricey. @ the time, they were comparable to the $2300 price for the Klipsch, but I would be afraid to know what they cost now. :eek:

-Kevin

[dando]

yeah, I didn't quite understand the top M/L's that he was showing me. They were powered but needed a robust receiver on top of it. the sub was the best sounding sub in the store but the guy told me it was the only true 'enclosed' sub they offered.
I know what you mean about the Magnolia project. It was nice to be able to hear things away from the cacophony of the store floor but they really didn't have much varity. Only three brands of floor tower speakers, Klipsch, M/L's and something like Definitive.

DefTech wasn't bad a few years ago, but I put them on the next tier below the others I mentioned.

-Kevin

[oddlycalm]

they really didn't have much varity. Only three brands of floor tower speakers, Klipsch, M/L's and something like Definitive. Probably due to distribution issues as they are going nationwide. There are probably existing distribution conflicts to work out. I imagine they will add more brands over time. Around here Magnolia has always carried a full range with nice choices at all price points. They even had the Domus range of the Sonus Faber line at one point.

If you are willing to stretch the budget a bit Vandersteen offers incredible sound and is easily the best value in audio. Their HT set is $3500, but it's miles better than anything even close to that price point. They would embarrass the Martin Logans yet don't need an arc welder sized amp to run them. The Technics electronics would run them just fine. Vandersteen has the kind of burnished warm voicing that will help tame the cold hard sound of digital HT sound tracks and make movie dialogue sound like real people are talking. None of the excessive "tweeter sizzle" or sibilence heard so often from HT systems.
Vandersteen (http://www.vandersteen.com/pages/vandersteen_home_theater.htm)

The other thing about Vandersteen is that he offers field updates to the products so that you aren't left behind by technology. This is unique in the industry and says a lot about his approach. I know people with Vandies that have had them for going on 20yrs and have never had the desire to upgrade out of them. Give the nature of audio, that's remarkable.

oc

[oddlycalm]

Well put, oc.

For full disclosure, I have an Atlantic Tech 250.1 set in my theater room, and a set of Pinnacle Classic Golds in the family room. The Pinnacles are the best bang for the buck speaks I auditioned ~8 years or so ago. I can't speak for their more recent systems. Paradigm was excellent, but a bit more pricey. @ the time, they were comparable to the $2300 price for the Klipsch, but I would be afraid to know what they cost now. :eek:

-Kevin Yeah, with speakers voicing is everything. Atlantic, NHT, PSB, Pinnacle all offer some great speakers, but they don't all sound the same in every room. Best to try before you buy. What sounds good in one room sounds like the dogs breakfast in another.

One thing I thought about is that we don't have the same currency advantage on the Canadian speakers that we've enjoyed in the past. Because of their government funded speaker research in the NRC (National Research Council) companies like Paradigm, Energy, PSB, Focus, and Mirage have accounted for their share of HT systems but given the currency situation companies like Vandersteen and Martin Logan are back into focus.

Another thing I've noticed is that in a larger room bi-polar or omni-polar speakers like the Mirage, Definitive, Vandersteen etc. can sometimes sound more realistic than the traditional box speakers.

oc

[B3RACER1a]

I had NO idea OC had some many high end audio fans. Awesome.

Having not been to a real audio shop in a while, I can definitely say that Klipsch today is not the Klipsch of old. They've gone mass production. My father has a very nice set of modded K-Horns I helped him build when i still lived at home. :)

But for a good set of floor standing speakers, I would give B&W a look for sure. NHT, Mirage, Linn, Martin Logan, Vandersteen, Mordaunt-Short, Totem etc all make good speakers in that price range.

One thing to know about the Martin Logans is efficient they are not. You have to have a lot of power behind them. If there is no dedicated true amplifier behind them, they tend to sound very brittle or tinny. Throw a good tube amp behind them and they come to life.

Another speaker that wasn't mentioned on here was Magnepan. They have an extremely unique sound and may just do what you are looking for with your large room and high ceiling. They sound very spacious and the sound stage they throw up is very good with the right amplification. You have to space them from the walls pretty far though, so if that is no concern, give them a look if a local place has them.

Also, there are deals to be had on the used shelves. My whole system in my apartment is pieced together from there. Often people have no idea what they have, so you can pick up a steal.

Good luck on your hunt!

[B3RACER1a]

Just thought I'd share....I got the deal of the century on some Magnaplanar SMGa's. I picked up a pair for 200 bucks. They look mint...not a mark on them. :thumbup:

[KLang]

Brings back fond memories. SMGa's were my first venture into high end audio long ago. :)

[B3RACER1a]

KLang,

Yeah I love em. They have a very very warm sound to them. Where I picked them up they wernt being driven with enough power so they lacked a lot of punch and detail. Here, they shine now. Did you ever do any of the crossover mods on yours?

http://www.integracoustics.com/MUG/MUG/tweaks/index.html

[KLang]

nah, I had a pair back in the mid 80's. Before internet tweaks were available. :D

[B3RACER1a]

:D haha.