Russian SU-30

[Wheel-Nut]

Neat flying tricks.

http://bobandsylvia.com/FIGHTER.htm

[Andrew Longman]

Rough opponent in a close quarter dog fight but it doesn't look as if it has any stealth design considerations. Can't elude/fight what you can't see.

[KLang]

Wouldn't it be easier to shoot down when it's standing still like that? :gomer:

[Gnam]

Rough opponent in a close quarter dog fight but it doesn't look as if it has any stealth design considerations. Can't elude/fight what you can't see.
Red smoke screen is the new stealth. :gomer:

Russian fighters are always scary: 1) because they're good and 2) because they're available to the highest bidder.

[Andrew Longman]

But they are never pretty. Russians aerospace designers seem to start out with trying to make a T34 tank fly and go from there.

[Michaelhatesfans]

But they are never pretty. Russians aerospace designers seem to start out with trying to make a T34 tank fly and go from there.

Really? Man, I love the Cold War era Soviet fighters. They really nailed that "Meet George Jetson" kind of look.:thumbup:

http://www.military.cz/russia/air/suchoj/Su-15-21/big/Su-21bis_2.jpg

[Ankf00]

Rough opponent in a close quarter dog fight but it doesn't look as if it has any stealth design considerations. Can't elude/fight what you can't see.

the Su-30 is a Su-27 variant and is decades old. if an Su-30 is worthless, then an F-15 is equally worthless. considering there's only a couple of stealth fighter wings in operation in the world, I'm going to say both are "not worthless," not yet anyway

and it doesn't matter what it looks like when it provides such dynamic capability and armament with the durability and reliability of a tank.

[Sean Malone]

Wikipedia says the SU-30 has been in operational service since '96.
China has 76 SU-30's.

Thinking back to my old Jane's magazines I remember an article that said Russian fighters all started life as stolen plans from the US. the problem was that the spies could only get part of the plans. So the Russians had to make up the rest and it was usually subpar to the American counterpart.
It did a side by side comparo of an F16 against a couple of different Migs (27-29 if I recall). The Migs looked identical except where the F16 had state of the art HUD and missile guidance, the Mig had analog gauges that the pilot had to tap to unstick.

[Andrew Longman]

I was reacting to the comment in the link:


Russia now has #1 fighter plane in the world... SU-30- Vectored Thrust with Canards.

Assuming equal or better avionic and missle systems, yes this might indeed out do an aging F15.

But depending on what the Russians have been able to steal from the West, their avionic and weapons systems are generally not thought to be on par.

I think I'd still prefer the F35, F22 or even F15E with the latest satillite guidance, Link 16, and radar.

I admire the simplicity and toughness of Russian engineering. It counts far more than looks, but at these prices it would be nice to be able to look at what you buy. ;)

[Andrew Longman]

Thinking back to my old Jane's magazines I remember an article that said Russian fighters all started life as stolen plans from the US.

I once read an article about the USAF acquiring a MIG sometime during the Cold War. I'm a little dim on the story but they had to examine it closely before either the Soviets noticed it was missing or the US had to give it back.

Anyway, they took it to Wright AFB in Dayton and had one night to disassemble, examine and reassemble it. Somewhere along the line they needed to replace a tire. Thinking it was some special Soviet made tire they called up Goodyear in the middle of the night to see if they could produce a replica replacement on the spot. The folks from Goodyear took one look at it and said they had on in stock. The Russian tire was a copy of the Goodyear tire. :D

[Elmo T]

I once read an article about the USAF acquiring a MIG sometime during the Cold War.

We aquired a few Soviet aircraft through various means. The Air Force Museum in Dayton has many on display or in storage.

http://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/shared/media/photodb/web/061129-F-1234P-010.jpg

MIG-25 @ Wright Patterson (http://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/factsheets/factsheet.asp?fsID=8752&page=2)

[Ankf00]

Wikipedia says the SU-30 has been in operational service since '96.

the 30 first flew in '89, and the Su-27's been in the air since the late 70's and early 80's.


Thinking back to my old Jane's magazines I remember an article that said Russian fighters all started life as stolen plans from the US. the problem was that the spies could only get part of the plans. So the Russians had to make up the rest and it was usually subpar to the American counterpart.
It did a side by side comparo of an F16 against a couple of different Migs (27-29 if I recall). The Migs looked identical except where the F16 had state of the art HUD and missile guidance, the Mig had analog gauges that the pilot had to tap to unstick.

MiG 27
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/images/mig-27-line.gif
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/images/ru_monino_aircraft_mig27_01.jpg

MiG 29
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/images/mig-29_001128a.jpg

[Sean Malone]

Must have been the F15 and mig 29. :)

[Ankf00]

I always thought that too when I was a kid, Su-27 too

[nrc]

Side by side view with a Raptor doing similar maneuvers.

_za3KfMFKLk

[KLang]

Side by side view with a Raptor doing similar maneuvers.



:thumbup:

Our guys just need to figure out how to do the pink smoke thing. :D

[Gnam]

The raptor video is obviously a capitalist pig-dog trick. No plane can master the air waves like the People's Glorious Su-30. ;)

cool vid, nrc. :thumbup:

[Cam]

Just following the Russian heritage of Yugo. Always stalling at the worst possible moment. :p

[opinionated ow]

this is the Awesome one-the SU-37
http://youtube.com/watch?v=bWN3-s9ACpw

might not be stealth, but it has the speed and manoeuvrability to avoid anything.

[oddlycalm]

Nice plane, fun video to watch. My questions is what's the mission? These planes are likely to spend their entire sevice life defending the coast from seagulls. Do they think they are going to be attacked by squadrons of B-52's or have air battles over Europe?

Let me know when they have a dozen carrier air wings flying off boats that go where the fight is.

oc

[coolhand]

1. The Video of the Kulbit (or back flip) the SU-30 pulls back into it at a hi rate of rotation and then momentum takes over. The F-22 maintained control authority all the way through. That demonstrates much better software and airframe stability. Most of all though, it has much more thrust to weight.

2. That F-22 is operational, most of the air show sukhois are stripped down demonstrators. That is the beauty of internal stores. The F-22 will fly in that "clean" form in combat if it wants too. In Reality that Sukhoi will be dragged down by wing pylons and ordinance. The F-22s Missiles will be inside.

3. Russia changes its aircraft designations for every thing as minuscule as a software upgrade.

The Difference between the SU-27 and any of the random SU-30s is not any that American aircraft evolutions.

The F-18C and F-18E/F are vastly different. The Super Hornet is 20% larger, has much more robust EW and has APG-79 AESA Antennas.

The F-15C vs the F-15E is huge in terms of crew, radar, CFTs, Air to Ground Systems.

This is the problem, people treat the SU-30 like it is new, while they treat the F-15E or F-18E/F as if they are from the same era as their legacy aircraft. In reality the F-15s and Super Hornets have been upgraded much better than the Sukhois.

Both the SEagle and SHornet are fully deployed, combat proven machines. Meanwhile the Sukhoi 30something of the day is usually not in production or has not proven itself yet.

The most advanced Sukhois in use are the Indian MKIs. They have French and Israeli electronic upgrades over the Russia aircraft. They are also built by HAL. Other countries like Malaysia, Algeria and Valenzuela reportedly got old airframes spiffed up to look like new.

Russia is just starting on a new PAK-FA to compete with American 5th Gens. These Sukhoi upgrades are just stop gaps till this enters IOC.

[EDwardo]

The Russians have been stealing US aircraft for decades. Sometime around the end of WW2 they got a hold of a B-29. Since they didn't want to let us know they had it since we would surely want it back, they held the air crew for several months while they completely disassembled and copied it.

[opinionated ow]

I still reckon the Russians are doing a better job-and its significantly cheaper if you believe what you read.

[KLang]

I still reckon the Russians are doing a better job

:confused: Based on what?

[opinionated ow]

:confused: Based on what?
a)the russian aeroplanes are as good and cheaper
b)the russian aeroplanes are better looking
c)the russian aeroplanes have a market for sales.


i'd rather have an aircraft that is just as good but cheaper-numbers will make a bigger difference in air to air combat than a slight advantage, and if you can have the option of 25 SU-37sir 12 of the F-22, i'd rather have the Russian one.

[Andrew Longman]

Quantity over quality has its merits. Ask Panzercorp members how they feel about T34s.

But when the American approach produces airplanes that quite literally never lose and when adversaries often don't even get off the ground, that requires more quantity than can be made up.

[stroker]

a)the russian aeroplanes are as good and cheaper
b)the russian aeroplanes are better looking
c)the russian aeroplanes have a market for sales.


i'd rather have an aircraft that is just as good but cheaper-numbers will make a bigger difference in air to air combat than a slight advantage, and if you can have the option of 25 SU-37sir 12 of the F-22, i'd rather have the Russian one.

AMRAAM's cost less than Migs and Sukhois.

[EDwardo]

a)the russian aeroplanes are as good and cheaper
b)the russian aeroplanes are better looking
c)the russian aeroplanes have a market for sales.


i'd rather have an aircraft that is just as good but cheaper-numbers will make a bigger difference in air to air combat than a slight advantage, and if you can have the option of 25 SU-37sir 12 of the F-22, i'd rather have the Russian one.

Here are some comments by aggressor pilots flying F-15s against the F-22 at the Air Forces' 2007 Red Flag exercise.


An official from the 65th Aggressor Squadron said the F-22s demonstrated an extremely lopsided advantage in their favor.
Pilots from the 65th and 64th AS, including exchange pilots from the Royal Australian Air Force and Royal Air Force, of Australia and England respectfully, expressed their frustration related to flying against the stealthy F-22.
"The thing denies your ability to put a weapons system on it, even when I can see it through the canopy," said RAAF Squadron Leader Stephen Chappell, F-15 exchange pilot in the 65th AS. "It's the most frustrated I've ever been."
According to Lt. Col. Larry Bruce, 65th AS commander, aggressor pilots turned up the heat on the F-22 using tactics they believe to be modern threats. For security purposes these tactics weren't released; nonetheless, they said their efforts against the Raptors were fruitless.
"We [even] tried to overload them with numbers and failed," said Colonel Bruce. "It's humbling to fly against the F-22." This is a remarkable testimony because the Red Flag aggressor pilots are renowned for their skill and experience. Lt. Col. Dirk Smith, 94th Fighter Squadron commander, said the aggressor forces represent the most lethal threat friendly forces would ever face.

http://www.acc.af.mil/media/archives/story.asp?id=123041725

I would rather have the F-22.

[Gnam]

a)the russian aeroplanes are as good and cheaper
I hope China and Iran agree with you.


"the russian aeroplanes are better looking" :saywhat: You must be drain bramaged. :p

[nrc]

All the flopping around in mid-air is pretty amazing in an air show, but I'm not sure how relevant it is in actual air to air combat. You're still limited to the 6-9 Gs that a typical pilot and airframe can withstand. Adding a couple of extra tricks to your bag may help you break missile lock a bit more often but once you use up your airspeed on a couple of high G maneuvers you're just a sitting duck.

If you look at the other specs on the aircraft there's really no supporting the notion that the Russian aircraft are better. The F22 will fly further, faster, with more payload, and it will do it undetected most of the time.

[Gnam]

In the future, all air combat will be decided by air shows. :bust a move: :gomer:

Looks like the Russians have it goin' on upstairs, but how's their ground work? Can they handle what the Brits are serving...?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=tOISlJ-dEgM

[FTG]

All the flopping around in mid-air is pretty amazing in an air show, but I'm not sure how relevant it is in actual air to air combat.

Watch dogfights: very relevant.

You guys are doing the wrong comparison. Can it outmaneuver a f15 and can it outmaneuver a missile? I don't know, but that's what matters.

[SurfaceUnits]

Here's their new toy of the month:

zAfi5OYxnxg

Great thing is, none of these or the other planes in this thread ever make it to service.

[KLang]

Didn't we (the US) try forward swept wings on an F-16 years ago?

[mapguy]

Didn't we (the US) try forward swept wings on an F-16 years ago?


Actually it was an F5.

http://www.desktopaero.com/appliedaero/potential3d/images/x29.jpg

[KLang]

Actually it was an F5.

:thumbup:

X-29 (http://www.nasa.gov/centers/dryden/news/FactSheets/FS-008-DFRC.html)

Why would the Russians waste time copying work we did decades ago?

[opinionated ow]

some serious anti-russian bias showing in this thread....

[mapguy]

:thumbup:

X-29 (http://www.nasa.gov/centers/dryden/news/FactSheets/FS-008-DFRC.html)

Why would the Russians waste time copying work we did decades ago?

It took them that long to translate the drawings that they stole.... ;)

[Andrew Longman]

some serious anti-russian bias showing in this thread....


Not so much bias as response to the statement on the link that the SU30 is the world's premier fighter aircraft.

Manueverability does not trump stealth, superior avionics and weapons systems. I don't think that is bias.

As for aesthetics, well there is no accounting for taste. ;)

[Ankf00]

some serious anti-russian bias showing in this thread....

good, go buy you some su-30's and stop whining about our F-22 :p

[Sean Malone]

some serious anti-russian bias showing in this thread....

Growing up during the Cold War tends to do that to you. I don't trust the Russians as far as I can spit.

And our planes are better. :p

[Gnam]

:thumbup:

X-29 (http://www.nasa.gov/centers/dryden/news/FactSheets/FS-008-DFRC.html)

Why would the Russians waste time copying work we did decades ago?
Actually, there was another evolution called the X-30 Conquest (http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/540/conquestboxle6.jpg).

How they got a copy of the Top Secret blueprints (http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/945/conquestblueprintsmv0.jpg), we'll never know.

[emjaya]

good, go buy you some su-30's and stop whining about our F-22 :p

For the RAAF's sake, shut the hell up. Don't even joke about it. Please.

That fool Fitzgibbon needs a kick in the nuts for even suggesting it. :irked:

[SurfaceUnits]

The Royal Aboriginal Air Force and mankind's first flying wing

[Ankf00]

For the RAAF's sake, shut the hell up. Don't even joke about it. Please.

That fool Fitzgibbon needs a kick in the nuts for even suggesting it. :irked:

no, su-30's will be good for you. a better choice. then you and the malays can sit down and drink tea and talk about your sukhois together. it's better for intl relations this way.

[SurfaceUnits]

Didn't we (the US) try forward swept wings on an F-16 years ago?

There was a delta wing F-16XL that didn't make it to service

e5QgQ3n7bZM


F-14 Supersonic

aGrNx76J6AY

[stroker]

some serious anti-russian bias showing in this thread....

What's the kill ratio of US/Russian airplanes since 1975? Given the Germans have Mig-29 and have a decade's experience with it to compare with Western European designs, it's telling that they bought Eurofighter rather than cheaper Sukhois or Migs, I'd think.