View Full Version : My take on the future...
Brickman
03-19-08, 01:32 PM
I could go over the past history of the last 12 years and write pages, why bother? People will always hold certain myths as facts and truths as nonsense. I have always felt that the IRL was created for TG to control open wheel racing, in my mind it matters not if someone thinks the series was to be compatible with CART or not, because it’s obvious that any two sports with similarities will be competing for the same fan base, same field of play. They could never live in harmony, because they were always competing. The founders of the ABA or AFL didn’t start their sports because they had a better idea, they did because they liked someone else’s idea that had come before them, they wanted a piece of the action, and in Capitalistic America, that’s the only reason you need.
It matters not why CART died, or Champ Car died. One was propped up by manufacturers, the other by multimillionaires. Neither could be supported on its own, just as the IRL can not survive without direct financial support. The arguments as to if CART would have imploded later in history are unimportant. The IRL was created, and affected open wheel history. It’s really useless to look at the past for the purpose of pointing fingers and assigning blame. Tony George said “I believe so strongly in the formation of this league.” So therefore he has in my opinion accepted full responsibility and the results of creating his league. Now that he has what he wanted, but open wheel racing in America is not even close to the position it was in 13 years ago when he said “We are in a position of strength, and we are steadfastly in a position to defend the future of the "500" with the Indy Racing League".
What is wrong with the IRL? As an entity, they are organized; they have never scheduled a race and did not start it. They have a solid TV package. They have network presence. They have manufacturer involvement. They have a tight schedule.
What’s wrong? What’s the First goal? Well number one is a no brainer for some, ignored by others. Those cars fly. They also create momentum racing… which isn’t racing. It’s an accident waiting to happen. The cars are still packed too close, they are artificially held back in attempt to slow down the speeds. They bump, take flight. It is a problem that is inherent to the newest generation of chassis and it needs to be fixed. The current chassis needs to be shown the door. Controlling speeds is difficult, but could be done. All “fans” should be concerned with having a formula in place that will guarantee good racing, ending "momentum" racing, eliminating aero uncertainties, tapping driver resources like NASCAR has done of late. A car that can be driven by Sprint Car drivers, Formula One, stock car drivers from any division broadening the base from primarily formula drivers to all drivers.
Another goal should be rebuilding the car owner infrastructure. I have no idea what the average age of a team owner is, but it’s aging, and aging fast. The only way to replace is to replenish, and that can only be done by making car ownership a money making venture. The TEAM (http://www.indycar.com/news/story.php?story_id=10010) needs to be expanded and enriched further. More teams = more drivers = more cars = more racing = more fans = more TV = more sponsors. The “merge” has definitely helped in this regard. But racing in open wheel must be a money making proposition.
Another goal. A less oval centric schedule? Sure. BUT it’s all dollars and attendance that should drive the schedule. Make money and pour it back into the series, if a 1.5 Tri-Oval that is run successful keeps a 4.048 mile road course that is rebuilding its fan base, it is a good thing. But money making venues need to be at the head of the line. Also two races within a region need to be tied together. Milwaukee-Road America. Homestead-St. Petersburg, Long Beach-Fontana. Cross promotion, joint ticketing, wireless ticket scanning of paddock passes, one ticket gets you into paddocks of both races. The successful attendance should be allowed to drive the direction of the series.
Another goal will no doubt go hand in hand with the first. The next generation engine. Will Honda be the tail that wags the IRL? Or will Cosworth and Kalkhoven be the fall back or come up with economic engine design that free up the series again from manufacturer spec leasing.. Will Ford become involved again? 1.8 Turbos? Racing diesels? Maybe manufacturers should only be allowed to just supply at cost the main building parts of the engines, and let the teams, engine builders go at it once again. Will a plan be put in place where the most economical yet most competitive engine configuration wins out? Racing is expensive, engines will only be cheap if they are spec, but that creates the worst racing ever, stymies the interest of gear heads.
The most important goal. To give the process a chance. They have 2008 to bring Champ Car teams into Indy Car and begin planning on the future. They have 2009 in which to start with a clean piece of paper in choosing a schedule and bringing back races that were shuffled out of the 2008 schedule. They must at this time execute on plans for chassis and engines for 2010. 2010 should be the introduction year of new chassis and engine configurations. They have to get it right…. No two race fans seem to follow the sport for the same reason, some may prefer certain ovals, some road courses, for some all spec chassis and engines are just fine. The broader the scope, opening up the rules to engines and chassis will create more variables and a larger fan base. Let NASCAR have the spec market where every milk carton is the same except for the printing...
Fans of the split, they want to perpetuate the hate loving relationship they have with Champ Car or Tony George, fans of the split want to bash the other drivers the other fans simply because they are the OTHER... Lista @ SmackForum said “Fans of racing or fans of a sanctioning body regardless of what it put out there? Fans of racing don't give two ***** about who is running the show - they only care about the show.” The same can be said for the fans who don’t like those on the other side of the fence, their reasoning is skewed, and they make no sense. They would believe the Titanic won’t sink, while it’s sinking, they need to come to grips with the bigger picture. Open wheel needs ever driver, owner, and fan it can get. I always find there is nothing wrong with being critical of a series especially if it is warranted and deserved. I believe some would prefer open wheel fails so that Tony George fails, rather than have open wheel be healthy and successful. In some revisionist history TG may someday be credited with saving open wheel, but in truth at this point he’s taken it to the brink of extinction.
Endeavor to persevere, bricktard. :laugh:
Usually when I leave or take a break from a forum, I just leave & I'm done with it.
But I feel I need to leave a parting shot for my break from Off Camber - the quote above & quotes like it are not representative of what OC used to be: an intelligent group of racing fans that could *at bare minimum* be civil to each other and discuss the merits of the topic. :thumdown:
I'm optimistic for 2010 AOW racing - in the meantime I'll be watching F1 & motorcycle racing avidly, and tuning into Indycar stuff to watch what happens with interest. I don't want to read hateful crap for the next two seasons, which is why I don't visit TF, CCF or Smack. That stuff has bled into OC unfortunately. It's understandable, I suppose, with the upheaval of the sport, I just don't want to read it or argue against it.
Rich
oddlycalm
03-19-08, 05:28 PM
I'll be watching F1 & motorcycle racing avidly As will I Rich. We'll miss you on the MotoGP and F1 forums. :(
Before you read too much into the above comment, Brick made his bed long before OC even existed. By being a contrarian at both 7G and Trackforum his flexibility in positions revealed that his real goal was to simply be contrary to whatever or whoever was being discussed. Not everyone is going to be patient with that behavior.
Regardless, I always enjoyed and valued your comments and wish you well.:thumbup:
oc
oddlycalm
03-19-08, 05:49 PM
Fans of the split, they want to perpetuate the hate loving relationship they have with Champ Car or Tony George, fans of the split want to bash the other drivers the other fans simply because they are the OTHER... Leaving aside all the other verbiage, let me ask you this; what in particular is a compelling reason you want to watch Brick? Do you really have an interest in any of the teams or what happens to them? Is it that cars? The tracks? A special driver? How exactly do you imagine they are going to reverse what has been, to any honest observer, more than a decade of suckage?
Maybe if I could find just a single thing that interested me, but what would that be? Any ideas? Seriously, it's not that I have hatred for people like Penske, Ganassi and Rahal, I just don't think about them at all. Ever. Foyt I remember as a fired up kid that was ready to take on the likes of Roger Ward, Jim Hurtubise, the Rathmanns etc. He was really something on a dirt mile, but that was in the early 60's. It's been decades since he's done anything but embarrass himself. Isn't it time to turn the page?
Rich said he would be watching MotoGP and F1, and so will I. If the IRL re-invents itself over time I'm not opposed to watching. For now I just can't think of a single thing that interests me, and that's their real dilema.
oc
Rich said he would be watching MotoGP and F1, and so will I. If the IRL re-invents itself over time I'm not opposed to watching. For now I just can't think of a single thing that interests me, and that's their real dilema.
oc
But I feel I need to leave a parting shot for my break from Off Camber - the quote above & quotes like it are not representative of what OC used to be: an intelligent group of racing fans that could *at bare minimum* be civil to each other and discuss the merits of the topic. :thumdown:
Rich
http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/2047/wpe65ok0vr7.jpg
Is this gonna get ugly now? I hope not. Because I thought what we were here, fandom differences notwithstanding, was just a couple of old posters. You know, both of us Californians... ;)
For what it's worth RichK, I would much rather hear your racing stories than bitch about the IRL. Last thing I want is to make OC unpleasant for anyone.
Brickman
03-19-08, 07:38 PM
Leaving aside all the other verbiage, let me ask you this; what in particular is a compelling reason you want to watch Brick? Do you really have an interest in any of the teams or what happens to them? Is it that cars? The tracks? A special driver? How exactly do you imagine they are going to reverse what has been, to any honest observer, more than a decade of suckage?
Maybe if I could find just a single thing that interested me, but what would that be? Any ideas? Seriously, it's not that I have hatred for people like Penske, Ganassi and Rahal, I just don't think about them at all. Ever. Foyt I remember as a fired up kid that was ready to take on the likes of Roger Ward, Jim Hurtubise, the Rathmanns etc. He was really something on a dirt mile, but that was in the early 60's. It's been decades since he's done anything but embarrass himself. Isn't it time to turn the page?
Rich said he would be watching MotoGP and F1, and so will I. If the IRL re-invents itself over time I'm not opposed to watching. For now I just can't think of a single thing that interests me, and that's their real dilema.
oc
I have only been "contrary to whatever or whoever was being discussed" if it differed from my view. It's true that I tend to leave the pom poms in the closet.
"Do you really have an interest in any of the teams or what happens to them?" As a fan, well I like Penske, always have, maybe it was from growing up watching Donahue/Penske at Riverside. I am hoping Paul Newman as an owner wins many a race. Aside from that I have a great concern for the guys in the trenches.
"Is it that cars?" Not these cars. I had a lot of hope when they came out that they wouldn't be the back breakers they once were. I thought the new ones were ugly from day one. I thought they cured the problem and posted why I thought they did. Once a pattern was established that they fly, I have consistantly objected.
"The tracks?" I'm against Texas regardless if it's a money maker, I have been from day one. I prefer road courses, bull rings and super speedways. I have only been to CART races at Long Beach, Las Vegas, Pocono, Phoenix, Homestead, Laguna Seca, and Fontana. As I stated, the courses that should be on the schedule are the ones that make open wheel prosper.
"special driver?" Most have retired, but I am hoping PT returns. I actually don't usually harbor bad feeling for any driver, but I do like rooting against drivers, in Cup it's the likes of the Bush brothers, I just don't like snots. Maybe I could root against Rahal Jr. and Marco but they would have to win and act like little pissers, they do have a touch of the spoiled brat look.
"How exactly do you imagine they are going to reverse what has been, to any honest observer, more than a decade of suckage?" Now that's a tough question, as I said, long term it's getting rid of the cars. Short term, it's "drone fests" of lap after lap restrictor plate oval racing that they need to fix. By tweaking the schedule they can. But I honestly think it's keeping fingers crossed and getting open wheel over the hump unscathed.
I have always believed, "man made problems have man made solutions" open wheels problems are just that... man made.
Don Quixote
03-19-08, 07:57 PM
What RichK and OC said. :)
Fans of the split...
You mean like someone who responds with a jab (http://www.offcamber.net/forums/showthread.php?p=225878#post225878) at Champ Car when faced with criticism of the IRL's web site?
If this forum is going to survive there will be champ car fans here who follow the IRL and those who don't. We will do our best to make both feel welcome.
For that reason we don't need any more philosophizing about what's wrong with "fans of the split" or any more name calling in response. If you're talking about other forums then talk about it there. If you're talking about people here then cut it out.
Andrew Longman
03-19-08, 10:17 PM
Wow. That's about as close to Oddly Calm talking smack as I've ever seen.
nrc, I'll trust this to you able hands but this is becoming a crooked piece of time around here. There seem to be a rush of new members and old members resurfacing. The mergification has unsettled and embolden some.
I think it is a bad thing if guys like Rich are run off.
I think it is a bad sign if oddlycalm has his hair up.
The facts are that 2008 is likely to suck for our type of fans. We are willing to wait and amuse ourselves for some time, but we are also realistic about where the sport has to land in 09-10 to keep our interest.
I would like it if we could keep each other company (with at least smoking and airbus threads) until we see how this shakes out. Meanwhile, we don't need anguished thread about peace in racing or whatever (I frankly can't even get through Brick's posts and maybe that's my bad) and we'll wait for the moment when actual racing news happens
Sean Malone
03-19-08, 10:30 PM
I thought Rich's comment was aimed at Gnam. :gomer:
What did brick say that got everyone so riled up? I don't read his ****.
Although I did see someone mention 'fans of the split' which I can easily surmise the connotations. For me, the biggest surprise of this whole ordeal was Mike Kellner showing up basically saying we either get behind it or we lose AOW all together. Says a lot.
I don't know why everyone feels the need for a daily affirmation by proclaiming every race series they will follow except IndyCar and yet it's IndyCar that most here know the most about. The cars are crap, the marketing is crap, the leadership is crap. I'll wait until the new car comes to make a decision, but I guess we need to remind each other of that for the next two years or we start pointing fingers.
F'd up ****.
For me, the biggest surprise of this whole ordeal was Mike Kellner showing up basically saying we either get behind it or we lose AOW all together. Says a lot.
Yup. I got into a debate with him few years ago when I was being labeled as a fence sitter. :saywhat: :irked:
It's not a matter of if you are with us or against anymore. It's just a matter of whether you give a crap or not. :(
-Kevin
Brickman
03-20-08, 02:13 AM
You mean like someone who responds with a jab (http://www.offcamber.net/forums/showthread.php?p=225878#post225878) at Champ Car when faced with criticism of the IRL's web site?
If this forum is going to survive there will be champ car fans here who follow the IRL and those who don't. We will do our best to make both feel welcome.
For that reason we don't need any more philosophizing about what's wrong with "fans of the split" or any more name calling in response. If you're talking about other forums then talk about it there. If you're talking about people here then cut it out.
Seems to me that I admitted that I was "wrong" to react that way in that thread, and "That too perpetuates the split". In other words that was an indiscretion and I felt I apologized for it... if it wasn't clear enough, I hope it is now. IMHO Fixing everything else on the track will mean nothing if people stay at each other's throats off the track.
The founders of the ABA or AFL didn’t start their sports because they had a better idea, they did because they liked someone else’s idea that had come before them, they wanted a piece of the action, and in Capitalistic America, that’s the only reason you need.
Yeah, and if FTG used this rationale for starting the IRL I'd probably be watching it now. I would have "gone over" when my favorite teams and drivers bolted a few years ago.
I'd still hate the sucky, dumbed-down formula, the oval-centric schedule, their hypocrisy, etc., but I'd be watching hoping that it morphed into CART II, Son of CART.
But the "poor American boys don't have a chance; people won't watch if there aren't people in it like them; it isn't 'our' racing;" yada, yada, yada they argument they used to justify this was deeply offensive to me and I simply won't follow or support this series in its current state (as long as FTG is involved, for one).
CCWS sucked, IMO. I didn't watch with anywhere near the intensity I used to watch CART, but it was enough for me to get a "fix" here and there, and occasionally, it could be interesting. CCWS did their best with a bad, bad, hand and I appreciate that they tried. A heck of a lot would have to change before I'd even consider watching the IRL. I'll lurk here enough to keep my eyes on what is going on (as I have the past 5 or 6 years, frankly) and if something wonderful happens, maybe I'll be back. However, I don't have any faith in "America's Bernie Ecclestone," so I won't be holding my breath.
Mary
"How exactly do you imagine they are going to reverse what has been, to any honest observer, more than a decade of suckage?" Now that's a tough question, as I said, long term it's getting rid of the cars. Short term, it's "drone fests" of lap after lap restrictor plate oval racing that they need to fix. By tweaking the schedule they can. But I honestly think it's keeping fingers crossed and getting open wheel over the hump unscathed.
So, to reverse the suckage, we need to return to early 90's CART. Which is what FTG appears to be doing.
What a ****ing waste of a decade.:flame:
Man-made problems indeed.
TKGAngel
03-20-08, 12:00 PM
So, to reverse the suckage, we need to return to early 90's CART. Which is what FTG appears to be doing.
But its different this time. FTG is in charge. That's what he wanted in the end, isn't it? /sarcasm.
So, to reverse the suckage, we need to return to early 90's CART. Which is what FTG appears to be doing.
Minus all those pesky fans. Don't really need them anyway.
Don Quixote
03-20-08, 12:04 PM
After watching this mess of a trainwreck it seems clear that the benevolent dictator approach is what would work best. Unfortunately, as we all know, if the dictator is an idiot, all bets are off.
cameraman
03-20-08, 12:40 PM
I've watched Oriol Servia race for quite a few years now, I saw this yesterday:
http://www.indycar.com/multimedia/build_photo.php?photo_id=65540&size=med&time=2.782310290262103
That is as depressing as sight as I have seen in a while. I hope Oriol does well but I'll not be watching. Indycar is a terrible formula that produces lousy & excessively dangerous racing. I've always been interested in who is driving and who is doing well but I don't watch. Ever. It is truly sad that open wheel racing has been reduced to a passing interest akin to a fantasy football team.
If you support a garbage product in hopes that it will change you are deluding yourself. It won't change and your "grudging" support it what is keeping it the way it is.
TKGAngel
03-20-08, 12:56 PM
^^^
I believe the phrase is "you can put lipstick on a pig, but it's still a pig."
The snazzy paint job can't overcome the low sloping nose and the ugly back end.
And looking at the rest of the pictures on the iammindy site, JV looks like he's gotten a lot grayer since the end of the CCWS season.
Brickman
03-20-08, 01:31 PM
So, to reverse the suckage, we need to return to early 90's CART. Which is what FTG appears to be doing.
What a ****ing waste of a decade.:flame:
Man-made problems indeed.
Man-made or Tony made. Hell I have always said if CART and TG could have a do over they both would. I admire Kalkhoven for realizing what was going to work and what simply wasn't than TG for just continuing plodding along with what hasn't.
I think the consensus so far is waiting two years and see what shakes out.
Sean Malone
03-20-08, 01:37 PM
I've watched Oriol Servia race for quite a few years now, I saw this yesterday:
If you support a garbage product in hopes that it will change you are deluding yourself. It won't change and your "grudging" support it what is keeping it the way it is.
I believe it's the rich guys and their pocketbooks who keep perpetuating the mediocrity that is the IRL. Crap car...still in business...empty stands...still in business...
Pointing the fingers at people who may occasionally watch an IRL race...:shakehead
cameraman
03-20-08, 02:07 PM
Pointing the fingers at people who may occasionally watch an IRL race...:shakehead
I was referring to people attending the Indianapolis 500 although that wasn't particularly clear...
Sean Malone
03-20-08, 03:58 PM
I was referring to people attending the Indianapolis 500 although that wasn't particularly clear...
I thought as much but wasn't sure. Basically, I don't see what the complication is, although I tend to over simplify things to a fault. The 'merger' wasn't a merger, Champ Car is no more. The IRL is the same crap series it always was and us Cham Car fans are left to look elsewhere unless they change the formula that appeals to us.
that said, I probably will tune into a few races this year. I use to live 35 minutes from the IRL race in Richmond and never even thought of attending. Now I live 35 minutes from the St Pete IRL race and...I admit I have thought about going. Hey, the ALMS is on Sat. Still haven't bought tickets which, to your point, would be contributing to the ongoing mediocrity that is the IRL. It would be different if the merger was more of a merger. Heck, PT might not even be in this thing. I would have at least liked to see him ram Danika. :thumbup:
cameraman
03-20-08, 04:00 PM
:saywhat: Do they sell Saturday only tickets?
It seems that they don't. By the look of the online ticket page the only way you can see the ALMS race is to buy a 3 day pass:saywhat:
Cripes. Go to the track and look for freebies. There's bound to be plenty of them as has been reported in years past. But make sure you wear a helmet ad mind the watch out for flying cars signs. :gomer: :irked:
-Kevin
SurfaceUnits
03-20-08, 04:28 PM
so the clingons think 15 is the magic number of years for the suckage, and then all will be grate. :gomer:
edit:
your hiro Kalkhoven is already dumping the shizzle that is mindy. I guess some of you are just clingingon to watch
it go tist up.
I agree with Brickie for the most part, except for some of the details, primarily his assertion that the series should chase the dollars when choosing venues. Of course, it should be a balanced approach, but in general, you don't take market share from a dominant firm by chasing only profitable niches. You win the market by offering a new, better product.
The series should race on the best, storied, traditional tracks they can and build the "product," which is the series itself, the cars, and the teams. If they chase the short term dollars with street races, casual fans, and so forth, they will continue the death spiral of the sport.
SurfaceUnits
03-21-08, 10:35 AM
Here is an irl fan's take on the future:
It's better to laugh than to cry when those are basically the only two choices.
If you support a garbage product in hopes that it will change you are deluding yourself. It won't change and your "grudging" support it what is keeping it the way it is.
Given enough support, a garbage product will see no need to change.
Brickman
03-21-08, 10:58 AM
I agree with Brickie for the most part, except for some of the details, primarily his assertion that the series should chase the dollars when choosing venues. Of course, it should be a balanced approach, but in general, you don't take market share from a dominant firm by chasing only profitable niches. You win the market by offering a new, better product.
The series should race on the best, storied, traditional tracks they can and build the "product," which is the series itself, the cars, and the teams. If they chase the short term dollars with street races, casual fans, and so forth, they will continue the death spiral of the sport.
Well I think it's dual approach. Car counts and drivers creates more product to watch.
I wouldn't go after "short term" dollars per say. That's why I used the example of a Kansas type track that's gets it's NASCAR dollars to keep RA on line. I really don't see Iowa ovals doing better than Edmonton. In the end it's the fans who will chose the venues by attendance. Don't go to Milwaukee and go to Belle Island? The powers that be will notice.
IMHO The only way the product will be really be better is the cars.
Brickman
03-21-08, 11:00 AM
Given enough support, a garbage product will see no need to change.
Well that would be quite a change for Indy Car, having "enough support".
I think the consensus so far is waiting two years and see what shakes out.
Perfect. I'll be back on March 22, 2010, socks firmly in place for the huuuuge announcement that this sham is gonna work. I will look for a proper formula, and Mikey's Farewell Tour would be an added bonus.
Brickman
03-22-08, 08:05 PM
Perfect. I'll be back on March 22, 2010, socks firmly in place...
Take a number...
I'm optimistic for 2010 AOW racing - in the meantime I'll be watching F1 ...
We are willing to wait and amuse ourselves for some time, but we are also realistic about where the sport has to land in 09-10 to keep our interest...
I'll wait until the new car comes to make a decision, but I guess we need to remind each other of that for the next two years or we start pointing fingers...
It really is a wait and see thing, fans supported red tires and push to pass and spec engines for one purpose only, they were "fans" and did so quietly to get to the next stage. Now it looks like the next stage will have to come first before support is given. Not really a big surprise. IMHO
It really is a wait and see thing, fans supported red tires and push to pass
Not exactly. CC fans supported red tires and push to pass. IRL fans (at least those on TF) did not. Just as they somewhat ridiculed paddle shifters. But not so much any longer.
There is a divide in the fan base that will continue for a very long time. IRL fans will follow whatever comes along. CC fans will be skeptical, if they follow at all.
Andrew Longman
03-22-08, 10:18 PM
It really is a wait and see thing, fans supported red tires and push to pass and spec engines for one purpose only, they were "fans" and did so quietly to get to the next stage. Now it looks like the next stage will have to come first before support is given. Not really a big surprise. IMHO
Brick.
I supported spec engines as a practical reality. Whether Cosworth or Honda the sport is f'd up enough that that's what it is.
I can support red tires and P2P as innovations that had complexity to the racing taken away from the pervasive spec-ness.
Given the beating the sport and its fans have taken, especially at the hands of TG it should be a reasonable expectation that this and many fans need to be shown a major dose of concern and rationality before getting much of a hard on for this more recent version of the sport.
No informed and appreciative fan is going to love it because it is all there is. They will always compare it to what it could be and what it was. These are not BS American Gladiator fans refusing to think about how to make the challange for meaningful or authentic.
Brickman
03-23-08, 02:24 AM
Not exactly. CC fans supported red tires and push to pass. IRL fans (at least those on TF) did not. Just as they somewhat ridiculed paddle shifters. But not so much any longer.
There is a divide in the fan base that will continue for a very long time. IRL fans will follow whatever comes along. CC fans will be skeptical, if they follow at all.
I dunno... I think the good Dr. joked it being Hanford MK IV or something. ;)
Actually I don't think anyone ran a poll about either tires or P2P, but CC fans were a little less critical until lately. Even though the IRL is chalk of control, I think no fuel control, no mandated tires, wing angles, etc. would really be best. I agree about being skeptical. But I don't think people are suggesting fans go goose stepping to oval races. Somehow a way must exist for fans to push their agenda.
Brick.
I supported spec engines as a practical reality. Whether Cosworth or Honda the sport is f'd up enough that that's what it is.
I can support red tires and P2P as innovations that had complexity to the racing taken away from the pervasive spec-ness.
Given the beating the sport and its fans have taken, especially at the hands of TG it should be a reasonable expectation that this and many fans need to be shown a major dose of concern and rationality before getting much of a hard on for this more recent version of the sport.
No informed and appreciative fan is going to love it because it is all there is. They will always compare it to what it could be and what it was. These are not BS American Gladiator fans refusing to think about how to make the challange for meaningful or authentic.
Yes I remember when CART wanted to sign go the way of 3.5 N/A engines A practical (http://www.trackforum.com/forums/showpost.php?p=286399&postcount=2) reality or just the only sane choice. Although I joke about it, I would have preferred Rainbirds or Hunter sprinklers wetting down the track than the P2P, God created some great races last year.
So far the dose of rationality, was giving out chassis and engines, keeping courses. I honestly believe it will take more than some CC driver winning races, it will take a real good 2009 schedule and a much better car. It shouldn't be watched because it's the only show in town, but it should be given feedback because it's the only hope in town.
manic mechanic
03-23-08, 03:03 AM
Yo 'Brick,
As someone who has worked with CCWS as a volunteer the last 3 1/2 years and been around the sport since the '70s, the whole thing is pretty obvious.
If TG "France" can see fit to put a good formula out there (ditch the flat bottom/externally aero dependent chassis) and secure the proper balance of tracks (no street course under 1.8 miles, no oval under 1.3 miles and all under 18 degrees of banking, and the remaining third of the schedule natural terrain road courses that actually CHALLENGE the drivers and teams) then I think most will only hold a grudge against his notion that the system needed changing 12 years ago.
BTW, what ever happened to the "avenue for Sprint Car and Silver Crown drivers to the Indy 500" idea(among others)...
As you stated, it was all about ownership and TG went deeper into his pocket than any of the others that fell by the wayside.
One huge issue is that (as noted in history) TG is only lying when his lips are moving.
CCWS may not have always done the right thing, but a lot of what is being cast off is 100x better than what is being run in the EARL, and the safety team and medical staff are the best in the world but only the med center trailers are included in the deal. :flame:
If you send people into a meat grinder, you'd best have the right people to keep them alive...
I could go on, but I feel it best to let you respond first.
Decorum, you know... :D
manic
oddlycalm
03-23-08, 04:24 AM
"Do you really have an interest in any of the teams or what happens to them?" As a fan, well I like Penske, always have, maybe it was from growing up watching Donahue/Penske at Riverside. I am hoping Paul Newman as an owner wins many a race. Aside from that I have a great concern for the guys in the trenches. Newman we can agree on.
I was a fan of Penske when Donohue was there as well. Penske Racing was never the same after Mark Donohue passed IMO. Penske was the money and organization guy but Donohue was the soul of the operation. A case in point was RP cashing out his CART stock and walking to the IRL and stating the US500 was the worst idea ever. Can you see Mark Donohue doing or saying that...?
I wish Wiggins & company well, as his organization is about the only one I have any residual interest in. He's done quite a lot with very little.
oc
Brickman
03-23-08, 04:50 AM
Yo 'Brick,
As someone who has worked with CCWS as a volunteer the last 3 1/2 years and been around the sport since the '70s, the whole thing is pretty obvious.
If TG "France" can see fit to put a good formula out there (ditch the flat bottom/externally aero dependent chassis) and secure the proper balance of tracks (no street course under 1.8 miles, no oval under 1.3 miles and all under 18 degrees of banking, and the remaining third of the schedule natural terrain road courses that actually CHALLENGE the drivers and teams) then I think most will only hold a grudge against his notion that the system needed changing 12 years ago.
BTW, what ever happened to the "avenue for Sprint Car and Silver Crown drivers to the Indy 500" idea(among others)...
As you stated, it was all about ownership and TG went deeper into his pocket than any of the others that fell by the wayside.
One huge issue is that (as noted in history) TG is only lying when his lips are moving.
CCWS may not have always done the right thing, but a lot of what is being cast off is 100x better than what is being run in the EARL, and the safety team and medical staff are the best in the world but only the med center trailers are included in the deal. :flame:
If you send people into a meat grinder, you'd best have the right people to keep them alive...
I could go on, but I feel it best to let you respond first.
Decorum, you know... :D
manic
Manic you shame others when it comes to being a fan, in comparison I am just an observer. I remember when I first met you, I gave you a ride down to the first 7th Gear get together, we met up with RiverRunner et al. at Speed Zone (http://www.speedzone.com/losangeles/index.html) old school indeed. Although bringing your Infrared IR Thermometer was cheating and armed guards should have... I digress... you have done the sport justice in your enthusiasm. IF you ever decided to go to the Indy 500, I would be compelled to buy you the next best seat in the house... the one next to me. ;) :D
I'm on record not condoning the existing cars, I personally don't believe that the safety team of Indy Cars is of NASCAR quality, (non existant) and I would be very surprised if they didn't bring some people into the series, no different when some quality members didn't make the cut when CC took over for CART.
The 1.3 mile oval is a difficult financial hurdle, not because of Texas which is a nasty 24 degrees... but the France/TG piggy back sales, at Chicagoland which is 18 degrees, and Kansas at 18, and opener at Homestead at 18. Like I said, tracks should be chosen because "successful attendance should be allowed to drive the direction of the series."
Let's face it, the Sprint Car sales pitch was for old school race fans. The numbers would be staggering if one really looked at them how many fans were from that part of racing, maybe TG conned them, or himself. But they have talanted drivers, many scoffed at Tony Stewart and any ability he would have to win on a road course... enough said.
Like I said, the road to Indy is not inclusive of just left turning, foot numbing drivers or... fans.
Brickman
03-23-08, 04:52 AM
Neman we can agree on.
I was a fan of Penske when Donohue was there as well. Penske Racing was never the same after Mark Donohue passed IMO. Penske was the money and organization guy but Donohue was the soul of the operation. A case in point was RP cashing out his CART stock and walking to the IRL and stating the US500 was the worst idea ever. Can you see Mark Donohue doing or saying that...?
I wish Wiggins & company well, as his organization is about the only one I have any residual interest in. He's done quite a lot with very little.
oc
I have a pic of Mark getting out of his car @ Riverside, his boyish looks... not one of a race car driver, almost more of a fan. Penske walked, profits first like about everybody... except PT's boss... although racing takes a back seat... and politics sits up front. Go figure. :confused:
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