Much troubled airliner

[WickerBill]

I missed the Heathrow shutdown by about an hour -- just got out of there and down to the south of England.

It is quite hot here.

Honestly hope it turns out to be something unrelated. Not good news for Boeing.

[Gnam]

http://i43.tinypic.com/16jg6rp.jpg

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/13/business/boeing-787-catches-fire-at-heathrow.html

Very strange.

edit:
location of all 787 dreamliners: http://flighttracker.newairplane.com/

http://i43.tinypic.com/3307hty.jpg

[Gnam]

Location of lithium ion batteries in 787.

http://i42.tinypic.com/mj3ut.jpg

Firefighters inspecting the rear cargo hatch.

http://i41.tinypic.com/acsadx.jpg

[Gnam]

It seems like the burn marks line up with the "Overhead cabin crew rest cabin" on this schematic.
http://www.aerospaceweb.org/aircraft/jetliner/b787/b787_schem_02.gif

See Item #44.

http://i44.tinypic.com/357j6ok.jpg

[nrc]

This story notes that Ethiopian doesn't use that area as a crew rest area. Let me guess - smoking lounge?

http://seattletimes.com/html/businesstechnology/2021380327_787heathrowxml.html

[Gnam]

Looks like they found the cause.


The report, published on Thursday, said the fire occurred in the upper portion of the rear fuselage where the Dreamliner's emergency locator transmitter (ELT) device, made by U.S. firm Honeywell, is located.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/07/18/boeing-dreamliner-idUSL6N0FO3EP20130718

The ELT is powered by lithium batteries. For now, Britain's Air Accidents Investigation Branch (AAIB) is recommending that the ELT's power be disconnected in all 787s. However, they are not grounding 787s, which means there are planes flying without emergency beacons.

[Andrew Longman]

What is it with the batteries? There is a lot I don't know and I do know batteries are much more sophisticated these days but if you are going to put anything on a plane you need to know it is going to perform exactly as it should. How hard is it to test these designs to death to make sure they work right?

I also know, because it is the nature of my work, that as for the batteries they originally had trouble with they never got to root cause and that means there is still a big unknown risk out there.

[dando]

What is it with the batteries? There is a lot I don't know and I do know batteries are much more sophisticated these days but if you are going to put anything on a plane you need to know it is going to perform exactly as it should. How hard is it to test these designs to death to make sure they work right?

I also know, because it is the nature of my work, that as for the batteries they originally had trouble with they never got to root cause and that means there is still a big unknown risk out there.

I think it's due to the chemistry involved and pushing the envelope to extend the life of them. See Dell, Inc. exploding batteries in laptops. The fact that Boeing was way behind schedule most likely didn't help testing. Battery technology just isn't where we need it to me. :irked: Just my uneducated $.02. :)

Or it could be just the case of the exploding whale in Oregon. ;)

-Kevin

[Gnam]

Just from what I've read, it sounds like the batteries have two characteristics that combine to form a problem.
1. They can store a large amount of energy.
2. During transport, they can release that energy all at once and start a fire.

This problem has led to restrictions on shipping lithium batteries by air.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-02-14/aircraft-fires-tied-to-lithium-battery-cargo-prompt-new-un-rule.html

I too lack the knowledge of how a bumpy flight or the battery's construction can lead to a fire.

[cameraman]

I would expect that Boeing did not design the emergency transmitter beacon. You would think that Honeywell might have more than one customer for something like that. Why would you reinvent the wheel for every plane? If so are those batteries in other planes?

Or is there some kind of weirdness in the Boeing's power supply that is recharging all these batteries?

[Gnam]

Boeing may have given Honeywell a weight limit for the ELT, and lithium batteries were just the lightest option.
:confused:

[chop456]

I suspect the beacon is in the tail for a reason. ;)

Once, on a boat in Lake Superior, the captain told us that the water temperature was 36 degrees (in May), and showed us where the life jackets were. Presumably so it would make it easier for the Coast Guard to find our bodies. :gomer:

That said - I don't care if the beacon on my plane is unplugged. If I die, it should inconvenience as many people as possible. Payback. :thumbup:

[nrc]

Lithium batteries are great except for that pesky thermal runaway problem. Charge or discharge them and they warm up. If they get to a certain temperature they start generating their own heat and the temperature builds until the battery melts or bursts into flames. Most things that use them monitor the temperature and regulate charging to avoid this problem. But things go wrong...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vS6KA_Si-m8

[Gnam]

It was mentioned on the first page of this thread that while the Dreamliner is assembled by Boeing, the parts are built all over the world.
Below are some graphics identifying where the large sub-assemblies are made.


http://s23.postimg.org/8iqmtp3uj/dreamliner_parts_1.jpg

http://s14.postimg.org/dhcd23rtt/Dreamliner_Components_2.jpg

[SurfaceUnits]

Boeing shows off first fully-painted 787-9 Dreamliner

The aviation giant sent out a photograph of the first 787-9 that had been fully painted. Decked out in Boeing's new livery, the plane will eventually go to Air New Zealand.

http://www.airlinereporter.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/640x494x787-9paint2-640x494.jpg.pagespeed.ic.aVwGgzrhbV.jpg

http://news.cnet.com/8301-10797_3-57595794-235/boeing-shows-off-first-fully-painted-787-9-dreamliner/

[TravelGal]

We've had so many notices that I stopped posting them all but this one seemed to add a little bit to the discussion.
Boeing To Investigate Wiring Defect In Dreamliner
Boeing is investigating a wiring defect that was found in a fire extinguisher system on three of its 787 Dreamliner jets. The fault was found on jets operated by Japan's All Nippon Airways. The problem, the latest in a series of setbacks for Boeing's 787, was first discovered during pre-flight maintenance of a jet at Tokyo airport, an ANA spokeswoman said. Japan Airlines turned back a 787 travelling from Tokyo to Helsinki to check the wiring after ANA reported the fault on Wednesday. It is the latest issue to hit the 787 jet after battery problems grounded the entire fleet earlier this year.

[Indy]

Was this the first airliner that Boeing global-sourced?

[cameraman]

To this extent, yes.

[stroker]

To this extent, yes.

Somehow I get the feeling it will be the last.

[nrc]

Somehow I get the feeling it will be the last.

I doubt it. They've been doing military hardware that way for a while.

[stroker]

I doubt it. They've been doing military hardware that way for a while.

If so, then why has this process been such an apparently cluster?

[nrc]

If so, then why has this process been such an apparently cluster?

I'm not sure that any of these issues are related to international sourcing. Most of this is related so individual systems that Boeing would have sourced from vendors anyway. Some of these issues are normal teething that any new type might have. Some of them are because this aircraft is a ground-breaking aircraft and these things haven't been done before - the lithium batteries, for example.

[Indy]

This kind of thing happened often in the auto industry and definitely contributed to its decline. Global sourcing and ruthless "Lopezing" of the supply base led to many predictions of cost savings that in the end became massive cost overruns. You just didn't hear about it because it wasn't as sensational a story as faulty airplanes.

Furthermore, the more you outsource, the more you lose generations of experience and know-how. Pretty soon, you have to rely on the foreign markets for expertise, because they are the ones who actually build the stuff, and in the long run they become the experts. Your engineering pool suffers greatly and before long you can no longer design a quality product.

But those bean counters sure know how to make money, don't they? :shakehead:

[mapguy]

Furthermore, the more you outsource, the more you lose generations of experience and know-how. Pretty soon, you have to rely on the foreign markets for expertise, because they are the ones who actually build the stuff, and in the long run they become the experts. Your engineering pool suffers greatly and before long you can no longer design a quality product.

But those bean counters sure know how to make money, don't they? :shakehead:

:thumbup:

522

[Napoleon]

[QUOTE=Indy;320207]Furthermore, the more you outsource, the more you lose generations of experience and know-how. Pretty soon, you have to rely on the foreign markets for expertise, because they are the ones who actually build the stuff, and in the long run they become the experts. Your engineering pool suffers greatly and before long you can no longer design a quality product.[/QUOTE

The elites in this country (who by and large are not from the manufacturing sector) almost completely ignore this fact and have my entire adult life. It actually goes farther then what you say, because much of the service sector (banking, law, advertising, etc) are ultimately "parasitic" on the manufacturing sector. At some point not only the expertice in manufacturing moves, but the branding, the management, the attorneys and accountants that do the work.

By the way, this book, which has been sitting on my book shelf the since 1987, is just as relevant today as when I got it:


http://www.amazon.com/Manufacturing-Matters-Myth-Post-Industrial-Economy/dp/0465043852

[G.]

Mike Rowe, of the Dirty Jobs fame, has been rallying anyone that will listen to consider the Trades as a career.

http://profoundlydisconnected.com/

There are factories and shops trying to hire skilled workers, and no one applies.

I won't get into my personal experience with outsourcing at the Professional level, but it seems weird that my company isn't jumping on the reversal bandwagon quite yet.



I worry about the little ones. I keep telling my kids that they had better get used to the smell of ****, because you can't outsource plumbing work.

I've got their career paths alllll planned out. And besides, free plumbing! ;)

[Napoleon]

There are factories and shops trying to hire skilled workers, and no one applies.

. . . and that is because they are trying to pay **** for wages.

[nrc]

This kind of thing happened often in the auto industry and definitely contributed to its decline. Global sourcing and ruthless "Lopezing" of the supply base led to many predictions of cost savings that in the end became massive cost overruns. You just didn't hear about it because it wasn't as sensational a story as faulty airplanes.

I don't think international sourcing is all about cost savings. I would guess that it's more about having a presence in these places that gives you some leverage in the government and regulatory arena. It seems unlikely that they would source from France, Italy, the UK, or Australia for cost savings.

[nrc]

. . . and that is because they are trying to pay **** for wages.

Are you saying that there are skilled workers available to fill those jobs but they'd rather be unemployed than accept "**** for wages"?

[cameraman]

Are you saying that there are skilled workers available to fill those jobs but they'd rather be unemployed than accept "**** for wages"?

I know a journeyman boilermaker in town here who refused to take welding jobs at a couple of the smaller companies in town that wanted to pay him a benefit-less $15 an hour. These guys usually make >$75,000 a year and there was no way in hell he was going to work for a third of that.

[nrc]

I know a journeyman boilermaker in town here who refused to take welding jobs at a couple of the smaller companies in town that wanted to pay him a benefit-less $15 an hour. These guys usually make >$75,000 a year and there was no way in hell he was going to work for a third of that.

Are they actually expecting to get a journeyman boilermaker for $15 an hour or is that just a case of being over qualified?

[cameraman]

They should use a journeyman but they won't pay for one and they use whatever they get for the $15. Ultra low bid kings and you get what you pay for in terms of quality. It is just amazing how many people just don't give a **** and just run things until they fail.

[Gnam]

It is just amazing how many people just don't give a **** and just run things until they fail.
*cough*openwheel*cough*

[Gnam]

Delta buys 40 jets from Airbus

(Reuters) - Delta Air Lines Inc (DAL.N) announced an order for Airbus jets on Wednesday worth almost $6 billion at list prices, softening its reliance on Boeing for the first time in two decades as it looks for plane bargains.

The order, crowning a months-long competition between the transatlantic plane-making rivals, includes 30 A321 narrowbody planes to be used on domestic flying as well as 10 A330-300 widebody aircraft for international routes. Deliveries will be between 2015 and 2017.

http://www.sfgate.com/news/crime/article/Ohio-man-who-held-3-women-captive-commits-suicide-4784911.php
Hey man, buy American, or at least American assembled. ;)

[TravelGal]

As I said, I don't post every time I see one of these but I like to keep up on the "progress" (or lack thereof) of the Nightmareliner.

Norwegian To Take Second Dreamliner Out Of Service
Budget airline Norwegian Air Shuttle plans to take its second Boeing Dreamliner out of operation for precautionary checks after repeated hydraulic and electrical faults led to the grounding of its other one. The carrier said yesterday the second Dreamliner had had fewer problems than the other plane and the move was more a precautionary measure. It expects the checks to take place once the grounded jet is back in service, probably late next week. The planes are leased from International Lease Finance Corp. which is based in Los Angeles. They are putting pressure on Boeing over the reliability of the Dreamliner. The plane has been beset by problems since its first plane was released for service. Norwegian Air grounded one of its two Dreamliners on September 28, asking Boeing for repairs after repeated faults in its first month of operation left passengers stranded in cities around the world including Bangkok and New York. The Dreamliners are central to Norwegian Air's plans to ramp up its long haul operations to Asia and North America. It expects to have another six of the planes by 2015.

[SurfaceUnits]

Airbus clinches landmark jet order with Japan Airlines

[TravelGal]

Boeing 787 problems 'should be over in about six months"

Boeing is about six months away from solving many of the 787 "teething" issues - that's what a press release calls them -- that have prompted so many high-profile complaints from customers, a top Boeing executive says. "I think we'll turn the corner very strongly about six months from now," Marty Bentrott, vice-president of sales for Boeing Commercial Airplanes, told reporters on the eve of the show in Dubai. The 787 has been in operational service for two years, but continues to operate a lower level of reliability than of a mature fleet, such as the 777 type that entered service 18 years ago. Boeing is now working to replace glitch-prone hardware and software on the aircraft, Bentrott says. But the process takes time. "It's all back into the supply base - getting those new parts, getting that software developed, and, you know, that stuff just takes time," Bentrott says. Although the 787 is still less reliable than Boeing or its customers would like, Bentrott emphasized that the aircraft is delivering a 20% improvement in fuel efficiency compared to the 767 or Airbus A330. I especially love this statement: "We're delivering on our performance commitments," he says. "What we need to deliver on is our reliability commitment.

Love this newsletter because of the editorial comments. :) In other news, the garbage collection strike continues in Madrid.

[cameraman]

Somebody is looking for a new job. Or perhaps somebodies...

http://images.bwbx.io/cms/2013-11-21/1121_dreamlifter_630x420.jpg

Nothing like setting down your modified 747 on a 6100 ft airstrip at the wrong airport by mistake. I wonder if that tarmac that it is sitting on will hold up while they try and figure out if they can lighten the plane enough to allow it to take off again.

[SurfaceUnits]

The same pilots who landed it say there's no problem getting in the back in the air


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbd0mq8-iJE

[KLang]

According to this article (http://www.kansas.com/2013/11/21/3132439/dreamlifter-lands-at-jabara-airport.html) it took off about 1:15.


Radio traffic between McConnell’s tower and the pilot indicated as much. Moments after the tower cleared the Dreamlifter to land, the air traffic controller told the pilot: “McConnell is nine miles south of you.”

Pilot: Yes, sir, we just landed at the other airport.”

Pilot: “Apparently, uh, we, uh have landed at (Beech Factory Airport, which is between McConnell and Jabara, just north of Kellogg and west of Webb Road).”

McConnell: “Verify. You are on the ground at Beech airport?”

Pilot: “We think so.”

McConnell: “. . .You are at Beech?”

Pilot: “Affirmative.”

McConnell: “Are you able to make an approach, correction, a departure off the airport and back in the air and to McConnell.”

Pilot: “We are working on those details, sir.”

It was soon sorted out that the plane was at Jabara.

Read more here: http://www.kansas.com/2013/11/21/3132439/dreamlifter-lands-at-jabara-airport.html#storylink=cpy

:D or :eek:

[Insomniac]

Haha, confusion in my backyard.

[SurfaceUnits]

http://www.kwch.com/news/local-news/boeing-dreamlifter-lands-at-jabara/-/21054266/23081256/-/oma90hz/-/index.html

[TravelGal]

http://www.kwch.com/news/local-news/boeing-dreamlifter-lands-at-jabara/-/21054266/23081256/-/oma90hz/-/index.html

Gone in 50 seconds. Surprised they didn't bring in John Force. haha. j/k. (Friday-itis.)

[cameraman]

Ugh, this just looks ugly. An American Airlines 767-300 going from Rome to Chicago. The photographer is all of 5'-8"

http://pbs.twimg.com/media/BrBHPdkCAAAx1ny.jpg:large

That would just drive me nuts.

[pfc_m_drake]

Ugh, this just looks ugly. An American Airlines 767-300 going from Rome to Chicago. The photographer is all of 5'-8"

That would just drive me nuts.I've been flying to South Korea a lot on business lately. Sadly, we have to fly economy and not business. In any event, I *once* made the mistake of flying AA from Dallas to Tokyo and learned that there's a lot of truth to those rumors that the US based carriers have squeezed as many seats as possible into the plane (resulting in situations like your picture above). And, for the record, I'm 5'9" and 147 lbs, so if I'm having trouble you can imagine how others fare.

Note that I only made that mistake once. Korean Air/JAL/Cathay Pacific for all my East Asian trips from then on.

[Andrew Longman]

I flew between EWR to Houston for about 45 weeks in the last year and despite a bazillions united miles the flights were so full I got exactly one upgrade in that time. I was fortunate enough to usually get an Economy Plus seat which is really just a normal seat for a normal body. You still can't open a laptop enough to see the screen.

When I was stuck in a regular seat it was about what that photo shows.

And the airlines still aren't making any money even delivering this crap service at usually ridiculous fares.

[WickerBill]

Time for an airline rethink. The answer is not to hope civilization, as a whole, gets physically shorter legs.

I sat in one of those seats (I'm about 6f4i and mostly legs) from Indy to Chicago -- inside the airplane for 50 minutes tops gate to gate -- and had bruises on both knees for a week. Walked on the plane and hobbled off.

[mapguy]

It's not just American airlines that are squishing the passengers in. There is Ryanair..

658

[Gnam]

^mapguy beat me to it.

What about that idea to remove all the seats except those in first class? The airlines get to add more passengers in the standing room only section, and no one can complain about cramped leg room. win-win. :gomer:

[TravelGal]

And the airlines still aren't making any money even delivering this crap service at usually ridiculous fares.

Huh? http://www.bbc.com/news/business-25348971 Airline profits to hit record in 2014.

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-25348971 The Economist: Good Times for the Airline Industry.

Of course they try to justify this all by saying how vulnerable they are and their profit is less than $6 per passenger. I'm thinking that, if after they avoid everything (like fuel surcharges) and deduct everything else they can possibly think of and still have to declare "profit" of $6 pp, they are doing just fine.

[Andrew Longman]

Huh? .http://faculty.haas.berkeley.edu/borenste/NBERw16744.pdf

Now that we are down to about two major carriers dividing America's cities, they've actually managed to make money but there are fundamental flaws to the industry and the march to squeeze more out of their customers isn't close to reversing.

IMO ;)

[TravelGal]

http://faculty.haas.berkeley.edu/borenste/NBERw16744.pdf

Now that we are down to about two major carriers dividing America's cities, they've actually managed to make money but there are fundamental flaws to the industry and the march to squeeze more out of their customers isn't close to reversing.

IMO ;)

Ah, you're talking US and I'm talking worldwide. I'm with TravelMom this week so time is in short supply. I'm afraid I stopped reading the paper above when I saw it was written 3 years ago. If I can get back to it later, I will.

[Andrew Longman]

An easier read. Principles are still in play I believe. http://freakonomics.com/2011/06/24/why-do-airlines-always-lose-money-hint-its-not-due-to-taxes-or-fuel-costs/

[JoeBob]

Anybody have a towel? http://www.usatoday.com/story/todayinthesky/2014/07/02/qantas-a380-returns-to-lax-after-water-floods-aisles/12004055/?csp=fbusattravel_sf28054126&sf28054126=1

[Gnam]

Don't forget your towel. [/hitchhikers guide]

Pilot should have played it off as just a bit of condensation. ;)

[WickerBill]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/fury-at-airbus-after-it-hints-the-superjumbo-may-be-mothballed-9919512.html

Uh oh.

[chop456]

Ouch. :gomer:

[dando]

What a damn shame. :gomer:

[TravelGal]

Ooopsie. Another snippet from today's ARTA E-news with much history appended for people who don't have the search capabilities OC offers. ;)

FAA Reports Dreamliner Battery Could Lose All Power
Problems continue for Boeing's Dreamliner, The Federal Aviation Administration on Friday issued a directive mandating "a repetitive maintenance task" for the Dreamliners due to issues with its power supply. Specifically, the FAA explained testing revealed that 787s could lose all AC electrical power after being continuously powered for 248 days, a problem that, if left unchecked, would leave an aircrew unable to control the plane. The order took effect immediately, with the federal agency finding that there's no good reason to delay the decision. The FAA said that the risk to the flying public justifies waiving notice and comment. The maintenance mandate was characterized as temporary, until software is developed to resolve the problem. This is the latest setback for Boeing over its 787, which debuted in 2011 in Asia and a year later in the United States amid much fanfare. The Dreamliner's development has been marred by production delays and other problems. And once the fleet rolled out there were two instances of overheating batteries on a Japan Airlines plane in Boston and an All Nippon Airways jet in Japan. Those cases prompted the grounding of Boeing's global 787 fleet, with the FAA announcing in January 2013 that before further flight, operators had to demonstrate that the batteries were safe and in compliance. By April the FAA cleared Boeing to make fixes to its battery system, paving the way for the aircraft to resume flying. The problems continued and the National Transportation Safety Board issued a report 11 months later blaming the battery problem on the overheating from an electrical short circuit that may have been caused by manufacturing defects and allegedly unsatisfactory oversight of the manufacturing process by both the FAA and Boeing.

[dando]

Ooopsie. Another snippet from today's ARTA E-news with much history appended for people who don't have the search capabilities OC offers. ;)

FAA Reports Dreamliner Battery Could Lose All Power
Problems continue for Boeing's Dreamliner, The Federal Aviation Administration on Friday issued a directive mandating "a repetitive maintenance task" for the Dreamliners due to issues with its power supply. Specifically, the FAA explained testing revealed that 787s could lose all AC electrical power after being continuously powered for 248 days, a problem that, if left unchecked, would leave an aircrew unable to control the plane. The order took effect immediately, with the federal agency finding that there's no good reason to delay the decision. The FAA said that the risk to the flying public justifies waiving notice and comment. The maintenance mandate was characterized as temporary, until software is developed to resolve the problem. This is the latest setback for Boeing over its 787, which debuted in 2011 in Asia and a year later in the United States amid much fanfare. The Dreamliner's development has been marred by production delays and other problems. And once the fleet rolled out there were two instances of overheating batteries on a Japan Airlines plane in Boston and an All Nippon Airways jet in Japan. Those cases prompted the grounding of Boeing's global 787 fleet, with the FAA announcing in January 2013 that before further flight, operators had to demonstrate that the batteries were safe and in compliance. By April the FAA cleared Boeing to make fixes to its battery system, paving the way for the aircraft to resume flying. The problems continued and the National Transportation Safety Board issued a report 11 months later blaming the battery problem on the overheating from an electrical short circuit that may have been caused by manufacturing defects and allegedly unsatisfactory oversight of the manufacturing process by both the FAA and Boeing.


Beat me to it. :)

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/02/business/report-on-boeing-787-dreamliner-batteries-assigns-some-blame-for-flaws.html

[KLang]

Oh goody, I'm flying on a Dreamliner this Saturday. :p

Realistically, how often do this things remain powered up continuously for 248 days? :saywhat:

[dando]

Oh goody, I'm flying on a Dreamliner this Saturday. :p

Realistically, how often do this things remain powered up continuously for 248 days? :saywhat:

No worries...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3eNFdwn07g

:gomer: ;)

[dando]

http://www.cnn.com/2015/06/11/travel/boeing-dreamliner-paris-air-show-rehearsal-video/index.html

[KLang]

Similar to Dando's link, Combat Takeoff: :eek:

tbd0mq8-iJE

Who knew a passenger jet could do STOL?

[Elmo T]

Looked like a C-130 with RATO. :eek::thumbup:

[pfc_m_drake]

Similar to Dando's link, Combat Takeoff: :eek:

tbd0mq8-iJE

Who knew a passenger jet could do STOL?
Eh - it was empty. No passengers, no cargo, light on fuel.
They all have a lot of 'get up and go' under those sorts of configurations!

[G.]

Those engines look like they are incredibly close to the tarmac.
:eek:

[cameraman]

You don't realize how big they are without some context.

http://azaviationjournal.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/Dreamliner-1edit1.jpg

[G.]

I'm now convinced that if you try to land that beast in breezy conditions, you have a very real chance of using an engine as part of your landing gear. :eek:

[chop456]

Needs more Corsair gull wings.

[pfc_m_drake]

I'm now convinced that if you try to land that beast in breezy conditions, you have a very real chance of using an engine as part of your landing gear. :eek:

Believe it or not, the 737 is a lot closer to the ground. The 87 has much larger engines so it gives the optical delusion that it's tighter than it is. Min engine to ground clearance on the 737 is about 1'6" (depending on the model) whereas it's about 2'5" for the 787.

In fact, that's why the 737 has those oddball inlets (ground clearance concerns) which pose a challenge for engine upgrade programs.

Relevant documents for those who are really interested :saywhat:
http://www.boeing.com/assets/pdf/commercial/airports/acaps/737.pdf
http://www.boeing.com/assets/pdf/commercial/airports/acaps/787.pdf

[dando]

I'm now convinced that if you try to land that beast in breezy conditions, you have a very real chance of using an engine as part of your landing gear. :eek:

Meh. By design...air brakes. :gomer:

[TravelGal]

Poor Johnny Five, can't catch a break. Now's blamed for this. ;)

UK Probe Blames 787 Fire On Short Circuit

Reuters reports Britain's air safety investigator blamed a short-circuit involving a lithium-metal battery for a 2013 fire on a Boeing Co 787 Dreamliner parked at London's Heathrow Airport and called for further scrutiny and testing of lithium batteries on all aircraft. The UK's Air Accidents Investigation Branch said in its final report on the incident that it believes the fire was probably started by crossed wires in the jet's emergency locator transmitter. The fire damaged the aircraft's rear fuselage as it stood empty on a remote stand at the airport. The Heathrow fire in July 2013 came at a difficult time for the Dreamliner. The entire fleet of planes had only recently restarted flying following a three-month grounding by regulators earlier that year after lithium-based batteries overheated. Those batteries are used for backup power and other functions on the high-tech plane. Since the incident the AAIB has already made 14 safety recommendations and Boeing and the U.S. aviation regulator, the Federal Aviation Administration, have undertaken safety actions. In addition, ELT manufacturer Honeywell International Inc is redesigning the unit using the AAIB's findings.

[TravelGal]

In more serious news from today's ARTA E-News:

The Tail Fire In An Ethiopian 787 Was More Serious Than First Thought
Investigators found that the fire that spread from the crash locator device into the crown of the aft cabin was fueled by the epoxy resin that glues together those layers of composite tape that comprise much of the fuselage of the Dreamliner, and would have been very difficult to locate and extinguish had the fire broken out in flight. The AAIB report said that "the resin in the composite material provided fuel for the fire, that allowed a slow-burning fire to become established in the fuselage crown, which continued to propagate". This was a fire that proved very difficult to control even with heavy duty emergency ground equipment at London's largest airport. The FAA which also certified the Dreamliner as safe, is now reevaluating the current flammability and toxicity testing of composite aircraft materials and studying new certification procedures for future use of resin bonded composites in airliners. The report tells us that once a fire breaks out in a Dreamliner it can be fed by the glue within the layers of the composite structure, and can destroy the integrity of the hull and cause a disaster in a fairly short period of time. The Ethiopian [2013] incident is a very very lucky break for air travel. It happened on the ground, and revealed risks in such composite structures not envisaged when they were designed into airliners.

[cameraman]

In more serious news from today's ARTA E-News:

The Tail Fire In An Ethiopian 787 Was More Serious Than First Thought
Investigators found that the fire that spread from the crash locator device into the crown of the aft cabin was fueled by the epoxy resin that glues together those layers of composite tape that comprise much of the fuselage of the Dreamliner, and would have been very difficult to locate and extinguish had the fire broken out in flight. The AAIB report said that "the resin in the composite material provided fuel for the fire, that allowed a slow-burning fire to become established in the fuselage crown, which continued to propagate". This was a fire that proved very difficult to control even with heavy duty emergency ground equipment at London's largest airport. The FAA which also certified the Dreamliner as safe, is now reevaluating the current flammability and toxicity testing of composite aircraft materials and studying new certification procedures for future use of resin bonded composites in airliners. The report tells us that once a fire breaks out in a Dreamliner it can be fed by the glue within the layers of the composite structure, and can destroy the integrity of the hull and cause a disaster in a fairly short period of time. The Ethiopian [2013] incident is a very very lucky break for air travel. It happened on the ground, and revealed risks in such composite structures not envisaged when they were designed into airliners.

Well that ain't good.

[Tifosi24]

So, it would seem I might not want to avoid the Dreamliner for my impending trip.


In more serious news from today's ARTA E-News:

The Tail Fire In An Ethiopian 787 Was More Serious Than First Thought
Investigators found that the fire that spread from the crash locator device into the crown of the aft cabin was fueled by the epoxy resin that glues together those layers of composite tape that comprise much of the fuselage of the Dreamliner, and would have been very difficult to locate and extinguish had the fire broken out in flight. The AAIB report said that "the resin in the composite material provided fuel for the fire, that allowed a slow-burning fire to become established in the fuselage crown, which continued to propagate". This was a fire that proved very difficult to control even with heavy duty emergency ground equipment at London's largest airport. The FAA which also certified the Dreamliner as safe, is now reevaluating the current flammability and toxicity testing of composite aircraft materials and studying new certification procedures for future use of resin bonded composites in airliners. The report tells us that once a fire breaks out in a Dreamliner it can be fed by the glue within the layers of the composite structure, and can destroy the integrity of the hull and cause a disaster in a fairly short period of time. The Ethiopian [2013] incident is a very very lucky break for air travel. It happened on the ground, and revealed risks in such composite structures not envisaged when they were designed into airliners.

[TravelGal]

So, it would seem I might not want to avoid the Dreamliner for my impending trip.

Well, just don't light a match.

[dando]

777-9x with folding wings.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/09/03/travel/777x-biggest-twin-engine-jetliner/

[cameraman]

Wow that was quite the fire in Las Vegas. If that was an engine failure then it was an uncontained one because there is extensive fire damage to the fuselage.

http://photos.lasvegassun.com/media/img/photos/2015/09/09/Photo_1_1_t653.jpg?214bc4f9d9bd7c08c7d0f6599bb3328 710e01e7b

Given that the plane is over 16 years old I'm gonna guess that it is a write off. They are incredibly lucky that they were on the ground when that happened.

[mapguy]

Looking at other pics of the fire in progress, it looks to me to be a landing gear fire. Engines look intact.

Edit: Saw a few more pics and it looks like it was an engine fire. Apparently some ground crew reported hearing a compressor stall it's take off roll.

[devilmaster]

JUOUVKa_Faw

[TravelGal]

From ARTA (Association of Retail Travel Agents) today. Sad way to go out for the pilot. Somehow I bet he decides to have a successful one for his last one. I'm amused that they "don't know what caused the fire" when they say engine was in pieces parts.

Jet Engine Parts On Las Vegas Runway Indicate A Major Failure
The jet engine of the British Airways flight that caught fire on the runway suffered a rare catastrophic failure. The pilot was forced to abort while speeding down the runway. Jet engine parts were found on the runway indicate failure, experts said as investigators released preliminary findings and began analyzing flight data and cockpit recordings. Early findings show the failure occurred where the engine was under the highest pressure, though there was no immediate indication of what caused it or the fire that forced 170 people to evacuate. The failure of the engine indicates parts sliced through the engine casing. The pilot, Chris Henkey of Padworth, England, said it was his closest call in his 42 years of flying and it would be his last flight. His next flight was scheduled to be his last flight before retirement but this one turned out to be his last. The NTSB will be interviewing Henkey and the two senior first officers with 18 and 10 years of experience.

[SteveH]

Prius batteries. I knew it.

why did I remember this post? :gomer:

Airbus hopes to launch hybrid passenger planes by 2030
http://money.cnn.com/2016/04/07/news/companies/hybrid-electric-plane-airbus-siemens/index.html


The European aircraft manufacturer is teaming up with German industrial conglomerate Siemens (SIEGY) to develop hybrid planes that can carry up to 100 passengers. The aircraft would use a combination of electric power and conventional fuel.


They would operate a bit like a Toyota (TM) Prius car: Quieter and much more fuel efficient than similar models, said Siemens spokesperson Florian Martini.

[dando]

why did I remember this post? :gomer:

Airbus hopes to launch hybrid passenger planes by 2030
http://money.cnn.com/2016/04/07/news/companies/hybrid-electric-plane-airbus-siemens/index.html

#Plantofail. DD1 asked about a Hoverboard for her upcoming 13th BD last night. :saywhat: :irked: I dissuaded her as best I could without spanking her. :gomer: ;) I investigated getting them HBs for Xmas, and thought NFW. :thumbdown: :shakehead:

[Gnam]

#Plantofail. DD1 asked about a Hoverboard for her upcoming 13th BD last night. :saywhat: :irked: I dissuaded her as best I could without spanking her. :gomer: ;) I investigated getting them HBs for Xmas, and thought NFW. :thumbdown: :shakehead:
Can't go wrong with a snow shovel. ;)

http://s29.postimg.org/dulp1dvjr/shovels5.jpg

[WickerBill]

Can we not post any 787 stories until I'm done with my Sydney trip next month? Kthx

[pfc_m_drake]

Can we not post any 787 stories until I'm done with my Sydney trip next month? Kthx
I'll trade you.
I'm going to Berlin at the end of the month on an A330 $h1tbox (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_France_Flight_447)
Hopefully the pitot tubes stay clear...

[dando]

Can we not post any 787 stories until I'm done with my Sydney trip next month? Kthx

No problemo...we'll just post Johnny nonFootball to the Nags instead. :gomer: ;)

[Tifosi24]

I'll trade you.
I'm going to Berlin at the end of the month on an A330 $h1tbox (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_France_Flight_447)
Hopefully the pitot tubes stay clear...

I survived two flights on an A330 lately. Granted, we had a generator failure prior to takeoff in Beijing that nearly led to a day long delay. My reward was a missed connection and a night in Detriot.

[pfc_m_drake]

I survived two flights on an A330 lately. Granted, we had a generator failure prior to takeoff in Beijing that nearly led to a day long delay. My reward was a missed connection and a night in Detriot.I haven't checked the flight route yet, but MIA to TXL feels like it's gotta be feet-wet for a pretty long time, which has me concerned.

[WickerBill]

I haven't checked the flight route yet, but MIA to TXL feels like it's gotta be feet-wet for a pretty long time, which has me concerned.

You'll fly up the coast for hours. Try to be asleep by the time you turn tail to Newfoundland. :)

[dando]

Meh. Just remember your seat can be used as a flotation device. :gomer: ;) Now when you wake up and the seat display shows you flying over Iran.... :eek:

[TravelGal]

Can we not post any 787 stories until I'm done with my Sydney trip next month? Kthx

Sydney! Where's that dancing banana? I've been there a dozen times. What fun. Don't eat the Vegemite, no matter what they try to tell you. :laugh:

[Tifosi24]

I haven't checked the flight route yet, but MIA to TXL feels like it's gotta be feet-wet for a pretty long time, which has me concerned.

I think the main issue with the pitot tubes on the A330 happens when flying through the ITCZ, so I wouldn't worry too much. Personally, the 16 hours of flight time to China, followed by and preceded by other flights, had me more worried.

[pfc_m_drake]

I think the main issue with the pitot tubes on the A330 happens when flying through the ITCZ, so I wouldn't worry too much. Personally, the 16 hours of flight time to China, followed by and preceded by other flights, had me more worried.If you want a really fun experience, fly into Seoul/Incheon sometime (starting on the US east coast).

First you start by flying dead north (from say, Atlanta)
On the way you get to spend lots of time in the Arctic Circle.
Then travel south over Russia.
Then for the last hour of the flight you take a nice westward swing out over the Yellow Sea - just to dodge any rockets that the North might be shooting at you.

Good times.

And, just like your trip to China, all of that happens over a nice short 15.75 hour flight duration...

[SteveH]

I'll bet this is spendy (http://view.ceros.com/united/polaris-business-class/1/p/1)

Would like to try it someday if I go across the pond again. My son is a pilot at United, so that might happen. For free. :D

[WickerBill]

As someone who just flew United's below-par business class to Australia, let me say the timing of this kind of sucks. :)

[JoeBob]

There's nothing like the original much troubled airliner: http://money.cnn.com/2016/07/13/news/companies/airbus-production-cut-super-jumbo/index.html

[WickerBill]

Superjumbos are doomed, at least the current generations are. The 787 holds 60% of the passengers and makes the LAX-SYD flight at 52% of the cost of the A380... and is far more likely to be full. Any unbiased person (read: doesn't work for Airbus) realized that the A380 was going to be a niche route bird, only for trips where the demand far outstrips the supply no matter the month or day.

Did anyone really think they'd put 1200 of those things in the air?

[dando]

Did anyone really think they'd put 1200 of those things in the air?

Not unless you were on laughing gas. :\