Much troubled airliner

[nrc]

United is just saying what people want to hear because they realize the public won't accept anything other than a full admission of fault. The Court of Toddler Outrage has declared them guilty and they must hang. Are they really going to cancel flights if they don't get the hour plus notice they'll need to re-position a crew? What are they going to do when one of the other situations occurs that can force someone off a flight?

[gjc2]

Getting bumped off a flight stinks, especially if you’ve already boarded; but the only reason this is a story is that the guy acted out like a spoiled child. When he refused to give up his seat should they have gone to the next person and told them he refuses to go so you have to go? I don’t have any sympathy for him.

[Pilgrims Drop]

The Real Reason a Man Was Dragged Off That United Flight, and How to Stop It From Happening Again (http://viewfromthewing.boardingarea.com/2017/04/11/real-reason-man-dragged-off-united-flight-stop-happening/)
A Cornell law professor gives his 2 cents (http://www.dorfonlaw.org/2017/04/united-airlines-own-contract-denied-it.html)

[SteveH]

United is just saying what people want to hear because they realize the public won't accept anything other than a full admission of fault. The Court of Toddler Outrage has declared them guilty and they must hang. Are they really going to cancel flights if they don't get the hour plus notice they'll need to re-position a crew? What are they going to do when one of the other situations occurs that can force someone off a flight?


Shame a passenger who won't give up his seat. "Ladies and gentlemen, this is your captain speaking. Due to situations beyond my control, we can not depart until the passenger seated in 12 B exits the plane. Until that occurs, we are forced to sit here."

Could be the more effective than force.

[Insomniac]

Shame a passenger who won't give up his seat. "Ladies and gentlemen, this is your captain speaking. Due to situations beyond my control, we can not depart until the passenger seated in 12 B exits the plane. Until that occurs, we are forced to sit here."

Could be the more effective than force.

Until another passenger decides to handle the situation.

[rabbit]

Want me to give up my seat on a flight?

https://az616578.vo.msecnd.net/files/responsive/cover/main/desktop/2016/06/05/636006947460133445-610710231_jerry-maguire-show-me-the-money.jpg

[datachicane]

There's a strange false dichotomy in this discussion, as if there's no conceivable middle ground between physically assaulting your paying customers and being a complete doormat for whatever abuses your lowlife customers choose to inflict on you.

There's a difference between the very real safety risk to your fellow passengers posed by a failure to comply with flight crew requests in the air vs. the simple financial risks posed while sitting on the tarmac, and only one of those warrants the threat of violence IMHO. Airlines are hardly the only business in that second boat, but I've yet to see a restaurant resort to knocking out teeth to turn a table.

[Insomniac]

There's a strange false dichotomy in this discussion, as if there's no conceivable middle ground between physically assaulting your paying customers and being a complete doormat for whatever abuses your lowlife customers choose to inflict on you.

There's a difference between the very real safety risk to your fellow passengers posed by a failure to comply with flight crew requests in the air vs. the simple financial risks posed while sitting on the tarmac, and only one of those warrants the threat of violence IMHO. Airlines are hardly the only business in that second boat, but I've yet to see a restaurant resort to knocking out teeth to turn a table.

I don't think there is. There's just two entities involved here. If that same restaurant called the police because a customer refused to leave, they may well get the same treatment if they refused to leave. You do not know how the police will treat any situation, but their discretion is broad and powers are immense.

[Gnam]

The other option United could have used is straight up lying to the customers.
"Will these four passengers please collect their belongings and return to the gate area. The TSA would like to talk to you..."

Then while they are talking to the Gate agent, seat the employees and close the door.

Sure you'll have four angry passengers, but it will be the TSA's fault, not United's. ;)

[datachicane]

I don't think there is. There's just two entities involved here. If that same restaurant called the police because a customer refused to leave, they may well get the same treatment if they refused to leave. You do not know how the police will treat any situation, but their discretion is broad and powers are immense.

Well, I don't picture the local constabulary being too thrilled at the prospect of that one. "The gentleman seated over there paid for a porterhouse and a nice merlot, and we did seat him according to his reservation, but we've since decided to single him out amongst all of tonight's patrons and give his table to someone else owing to something something cost us money otherwise. Feel free to use all necessary force."

I also have a hard time picturing his fellow restaurant patrons rushing to the defense of an establishment that knocks customer's teeth out for taking exception to that scenario, a scenario which, to be clear, has absolutely zero impact on those other patrons aside from any impact said establishment chooses to impose. Like I said earlier, humans are really weird about authority, even when there's no actual public safety component.

From a purely business standpoint, it's pure idiocy to spend cubic gazillions on advertising and then flush it all away (and then some) to save relative pocket change. Heck, it almost certainly cost United more for Munoz to draft that first letter (let alone the sequels) than they offered for that seat in the first place, even ignoring all of the PR implications. Auction that bad boy off and I guarantee someone will take the bait, customers get to keep their teeth, the airline gets too keep most of their cash and their immortal souls, and everyone keeps their dignity.

[datachicane]

The other option United could have used is straight up lying to the customers.
"Will these four passengers please collect their belongings and return to the gate area. The TSA would like to talk to you..."

Then while they are talking to the Gate agent, seat the employees and close the door.

Sure you'll have four angry passengers, but it will be the TSA's fault, not United's. ;)

:thumbup: :tony:

[gerhard911]

LMFAO at this thread. :rofl:

Nothing here to entice me to ever put my arse on a commercial flight. Those of you that do, deserve exactly what your corporate overlords decide you have coming. :shakehead:

[Gnam]

United should hire Louie CK for their next ad campaign.

"Fly United, you unappreciative, selfish babies. It's amazing."


http://youtu.be/q8LaT5Iiwo4

[nissan gtp]

The other option United could have used is straight up lying to the customers.
"Will these four passengers please collect their belongings and return to the gate area. The TSA would like to talk to you..."

Then while they are talking to the Gate agent, seat the employees and close the door.

Sure you'll have four angry passengers, but it will be the TSA's fault, not United's. ;)

:rofl:

[G.]

LMFAO at this thread. :rofl:

Nothing here to entice me to ever put my arse on a commercial flight. Those of you that do, deserve exactly what your corporate overlords decide you have coming. :shakehead:

Then what the hell do you bitch about at cocktail parties?!?

You must be boring to hang with - you, with no TSA horror-stories.

Gosh!

:gomer:

[gerhard911]

I b!tch about poor drivers, cell phone users (somewhat redundant), religious hypocrisy and how inconsiderate people are these day. I am an absolute blast to party with! ;)

[SteveH]

What a Flight Attendant Wants You to Know About Recent Airline Horror Stories (http://viewfromthewing.boardingarea.com/2017/05/01/flight-attendant-wants-know-recent-airline-horror-stories/)

excellent counterpoint :thumbup:

[Gnam]

I agree with the part about "emotional baggage". The airlines could make a mint if they could figure out a way to charge for it. ;)

[nrc]

Much crowing about United's recent announcement that they would start paying people up to $10,000 to get off their flight. I wonder where people think that money is going to come from? Particularly since everyone thinks that's the number they have them over the barrel for.

[datachicane]

Much crowing about United's recent announcement that they would start paying people up to $10,000 to get off their flight. I wonder where people think that money is going to come from? Particularly since everyone thinks that's the number they have them over the barrel for.

Meh. They'll just auction it off, and someone will bite at a much, much lower price than $10k.

[WickerBill]

United is also going to utilize other airlines, which they've always resisted heavily, to help passengers and even United crew get places.

I see American FAs on my United flights all the time, but apparently the reverse wasn't true.

[SteveH]

Long standing reciprocal agreement between carriers to provide carriage to crew of other carriers at no charge as long as they are in uniform.

[Gnam]

These airline vs passenger videos remind me of the old NFL 'You Make The Call' commercials.

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-delta-child-seat-20170504-story.html

Delta lies about FAA rules for kids in car seats then threatens family with jail and foster care to get them off the plane. To top it off, Delta then charges the family $2,000 to rebook a flight home.

That's pretty low, but at least they didn't knock the kids' teeth out.
Don't re-accommodate me, bro!

https://s30.postimg.org/n44nt4jpt/C-_Q-_YUXs_Akk_Ww_K.jpg

[indyfan31]

These airline vs passenger videos remind me of the old NFL 'You Make The Call' commercials.

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-delta-child-seat-20170504-story.html

Delta lies about FAA rules for kids in car seats then threatens family with jail and foster care to get them off the plane. To top it off, Delta then charges the family $2,000 to rebook a flight home.

That's pretty low, but at least they didn't knock the kids' teeth out.
Don't re-accommodate me, bro!


I don't think I'm going out on a limb when I say I doubt they flew Delta back home. :)
That said he screwed up when he told the cabin crew that he had switched tickets between his two kids.
Otherwise they had no way of knowing the baby wasn't "Mason".

The F.A. threatened to produce docs stating the baby had to be in someone's lap, she never did.
All he had to do was bring up the Delta website on his phone stating the baby should be in a seat.

[Insomniac]

This one is interesting. Thoughts.

Delta handled it badly using the horrible misinformation to get the passenger to do what you want strategy.

The family did not buy a seat for the child in the first place. They made the mistake here and either they boarded the child using a ticket not for the child or they boarded as the child was booked (infant in arms) to travel for free and tried to use the seat they figured would be empty because their son flew out on a different flight.

I haven't seen exactly what the sequence of events was. Did they give the seat to another passenger because the son did not show up? It seems odd that they would go on the plane, assess a child is young enough to be carried and demand they give up a seat in that manner. I suspect they did not board with the son's boarding pass.

Looks like we're going to be in for a video of every incident now that the airlines are just saying sorry and compensating passengers. They also get their version of the story out first while people melt down and forget about any circumstances (like the leggings girls).

[TravelGal]

SteveH is right. Here's my Facebook post. Delta incident: Cabin attendants, way wrong to threaten passengers with things that aren't remotely true. They should be disciplined. HOWEVER, Passengers: way wrong to buy a seat, have that person be a no-show [18 y/o son] and expect to let anyone they wanted to fill the seat [baby brother]. Regardless of the fact that the two people were brothers, it's called a name change and it's required. No one can fly on another person's ticket. Ever.

[TravelGal]

Ooooopsie.

Engine defect grounds Boeing 737 MAX fleet
Boeing has grounded its fleet of 737 MAX aircraft days ahead of the first delivery because of a problem with some engines. Not all of the LEAP-1B engines supplied by engine manufacturer CFM International are affected but the manufacturer said it was temporarily suspending MAX flights "out of an abundance of caution''. Boeing said in a statement it had been notified by CFM of a manufacturing quality problem with the low-pressure turbine discs and it was working with CFM on an inspection program. The problem, discovered in the forging process, could lead to cracking and engines from about 25 test and production planes have been sent to CFM facilities in the US and France for testing. The first MAX delivery to Indonesian carrier Malindo Air was due to take place next week but Boeing said it expects to still make the delivery this month. The engine features advanced technologies and is specifically optimized for the 737 MAX, contributing much of the fuel efficiency gain enjoyed by the new jet. Flight tests for the MAX has so far gone smoothly and there was no indication of problems with the LEAP-1B during ground testing. A CFM spokeswoman told The Seattle Times that the low-pressure turbine discs were produced by three different suppliers and only one had the forging issue. Norwegian Air, another customer due for its first delivery in May said it expects a delay of a few days. The MAX 8 received FAA certification in March, clearing it for commercial service. Boeing had taken orders for 3,714 737 MAX aircraft by the end of April.

[WickerBill]

3700? Dang. That's quite a launch.

[TravelGal]

3700? Dang. That's quite a launch.

I thought so too. But "taken orders for" can translate into "delivery by the 12th of never." ;)

[SteveH]

I'm not surprised. The 737 has been the workhorse of the aviation industry for 50 years, now. According to Wikipedia "since 1967 with 9,486 aircraft delivered and 4,478 orders yet to be fulfilled as of April 2017" Certainly not a glamorous plane, larger 7 series craft got all that attention. But dependable and in use everywhere.


The opening lines to Traveling Band by Credence Clearwater Revival:


Seven thirty seven comin' out of the sky
Won't you take me down to Memphis on a midnight ride
I want to move
Playin' in a travelin' band
Yeah
Well I'm flyin' 'cross the land tryin' to get a hand
Playin' in a travelin' band

[nrc]

Another shark attack. This one on JetBlue.

http://www.foxnews.com/travel/2017/05/14/new-jersey-family-booted-from-jetblue-flight-to-vegas-after-spat-with-crew-member.html

The interesting thing here is that I think you see the tactic they're going to use going forward to remove unruly passengers.


The station reported that police at John F. Kennedy Airport were brought on board. An attendant then made an announcement that everyone had to get off the plane. That’s when the Burkes were removed.

So "everyone off the plane" and then if the troublesome passenger doesn't leave they can drag them off without a dozen phones recording.

[Gnam]

No witnesses. :laugh:

[nrc]

Boeing has gotten bored and is now doodling in the sky.

https://techcrunch.com/2017/08/03/watch-a-boeing-787-dreamliner-draw-a-massive-plane-above-the-united-states/

953

[nrc]

Looks like Boeing may have a problem on their hands with the 737 MAX 8. No definitive word yet but two major crashes in six months seems unlikely to be a coincidence given recent safety trends or even the record of the older model 737s.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2019/03/12/senators-call-faa-ground-boeing-737-max-8-immediately/3139465002/

[WickerBill]

Looks like Boeing may have a problem on their hands with the 737 MAX 8. No definitive word yet but two major crashes in six months seems unlikely to be a coincidence given recent safety trends or even the record of the older model 737s.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2019/03/12/senators-call-faa-ground-boeing-737-max-8-immediately/3139465002/

They're issuing a software update. That always fixes this problem:

"The redesign changed the size and placement of the aircraft's engines, which altered how the jet handled in flight ..."

[TravelGal]

They're issuing a software update. That always fixes this problem:

"The redesign changed the size and placement of the aircraft's engines, which altered how the jet handled in flight ..."

I'm sorry but I'm laughing my arse off. Who would have though that changing both the size and the placement of engines would alter how the aircraft handled? Will wonders never cease. :rofl:

In other news, Europe has grounded them all. Most airlines in the US doing the same. https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/boeing-737-max-ban-eu-europe-cancelled-flights-ethiopian-airlines-a8819886.html?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR2IKNs1GytyhrSgUNRTnihcXGdqIreKlfzTss7rn KoI39rOEC_VrI-kUPQ#Echobox=1552412810

[nrc]

I'm sorry but I'm laughing my arse off. Who would have though that changing both the size and the placement of engines would alter how the aircraft handled? Will wonders never cease. :rofl:

In other news, Europe has grounded them all. Most airlines in the US doing the same. https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/boeing-737-max-ban-eu-europe-cancelled-flights-ethiopian-airlines-a8819886.html?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR2IKNs1GytyhrSgUNRTnihcXGdqIreKlfzTss7rn KoI39rOEC_VrI-kUPQ#Echobox=1552412810

The problem may be that they tried to add automation to account for the changes in handling and something is not working as expected. It's not clear yet whether it's software, sensors, or just pilot reaction to what the plane is trying to do. Maybe some combination of all those.

[nrc]

More 737 problems. This time it's falcons.

https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2020-02-19/boeing-peregrine-falcon-737-max

[cameraman]

More 737 problems. This time it's falcons.

https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2020-02-19/boeing-peregrine-falcon-737-max

I have this exact same problem at my house. There is a very large spruce in the front yard that seems to be a perfect dinner location for avian hunters. Quite often I will walk out the front door to a porch and walk covered in pigeon parts. It isn't just the peregrines, the great horned owls will de-fluff rabbits, cats and skunks (the bird doesn't seem to mind the smell but lord what a mess) and the Cooper's hawks take apart starlings, robins, magpies & blue jays. The tree is an incredibly popular picnic spot.

[TravelGal]

FAA Probes How A Southwest Jet Developed A Crack During Flight :eek::eek:
The Associated Press reported Federal air safety officials are investigating a crack that ruptured the skin on a Boeing 737 jet operated by Southwest Airlines, causing the plane to gradually lose cabin pressure. The incident occurred last Monday on a flight from Las Vegas to Boise, Idaho. Flight records show that the pilots began a rapid, 6-minute descent from 39,000 feet to 22,000 feet. At that altitude, the cabin pressure was safe, and the crew completed the flight, said Southwest and the Federal Aviation Administration. Oxygen masks in the passenger cabin never dropped from the ceiling, and no injuries were reported, the airline and the regulatory agency said. The FAA said an inspection turned up a 12-inch crack in the skin of the plane's crown behind the cockpit. Airlines are required to inspect that area every 1,500 flights. The FAA said it was too early to know whether the frequency of inspections should be increased.
A Southwest spokeswoman said the plane had been inspected for cracks within the required 1,500-flight period. During the flight, Agnew said, pilots responded to an indicator in the cockpit and "followed standard procedures by descending to a lower altitude to maintain a safe and comfortable cabin environment." That "resolved the issue," and the crew continued safely to Boise, she said. "The aircraft did not incur a rapid depressurization, masks were not deployed, and the aircraft did not require a diversion to maintain safety of flight," Agnew said. On Friday, the plane was in a maintenance facility and undergoing repairs for the crack. Southwest told the FAA that required inspections turned up external cracks in two other planes in the same area but that those incidents didn't lead to cabin decompression. Breaks in the skin of aluminum-body jets such as the Boeing 737 are usually caused by fatigue or wear and tear. Maintenance experts say fatigue cracks are not uncommon in older planes, and inspections are designed to find them and repair them before they become safety problems.

[nrc]

The 737 MAX is cleared to fly again. Get your tickets now. Line forms here.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-boeing-737max/u-s-to-approve-737-max-return-as-boeing-faces-strong-headwinds-idUSKBN27Y0FU

[TravelGal]

The 737 MAX is cleared to fly again. Get your tickets now. Line forms here.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-boeing-737max/u-s-to-approve-737-max-return-as-boeing-faces-strong-headwinds-idUSKBN27Y0FU

Be aware that Boeing is massaging the name so check carefully if flying this aircraft concerns you.

Today's agent news: Bloomberg News reports US airlines are preparing to get the Boeing Co. 737 Max ready for commercial flights after regulators lifted a 20-month grounding. American Airlines Group Inc. is poised to be the first carrier to bring back the Max since the flying ban began in March 2019. The company confirmed Wednesday that it's planning to start operating the plane Dec. 29 on service between Miami and New York, but took pains to say that passengers won't have to ride on Boeing's best-selling jet if they don't want to. "Our customers will be able to easily identify whether they are traveling on one even if schedules change," American said in a message to employees. "If a customer prefers to not fly on this aircraft, we'll provide flexibility to ensure they can be easily re-accommodated." And I have a bridge....

[cameraman]

Now that they have gone over the design with a fine toothed comb it is probably as safe a plane as can be. As much of the problem was the lack of training/awareness of the pilots, well that part is well and truly fixed.

[gjc2]

Now that they have gone over the design with a fine toothed comb it is probably as safe a plane as can be. As much of the problem was the lack of training/awareness of the pilots, well that part is well and truly fixed.

Let's hope.

[TravelGal]

From today's Association of Retail Travel Agents newsletter.

WSJ reported last month, commercial flights with Boeing 737 Max jetliners resumed after a 20-month worldwide grounding, following two deadly accidents. Now we're finding out, weeks later, after the Max was cleared by the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) to return to the skies safely, an Air Canada Boeing 737-8 Max suffered engine issues during flight. According to Aviation24.be, an Air Canada Boeing 737-8 MAX (registered C-FSNQ) was on a test flight after storage from Marana Pinal, Arizona, to Montreal, Canada, when the incident occurred. Luckily, the aircraft had no passengers and only three crew members. Engine issues shortly developed after the plane took off. The crew noticed the "left engine had low hydraulic pressure," said Aviation24.be. Then more complications developed with the aircraft: "The crew and airline dispatch/engineering controllers initially decided to continue to Montreal but the crew received an indication of a fuel imbalance from the left-hand wing and shut the left hand engine down," said the aviation website. The crew was forced to declare a "PAN-PAN" emergency, meaning the plane was in severe jeopardy and had to divert from its pre-planned flight route and land in Tucson. The incident took place on Dec. 22, according to Aviation24.be.

[SteveH]

Maybe removing those planes from storage won’t be so easy. Although planes are stored all the time. Maybe this is commonplace but since it’s the Max it’s gets reported.

[pfc_m_drake]

Maybe removing those planes from storage won’t be so easy. Although planes are stored all the time. Maybe this is commonplace but since it’s the Max it’s gets reported.Unfortunately you're exactly right. There's a guy who I watch on YouTube who flies his own private jet. One time he flew somewhere and parked for a couple of *days*. Went to fly the next time and when he started the engines, he had a bunch of warnings from the left engine.

Shut it down and investigated. Ground crew told him there had been a swarm of bees (following their queen) hanging around for a little while. Sure enough, the queen (and consequently the hive) took up residence in his left engine. Engine was trashed and needed to be sent back to the manufacturer for a complete rebuild.

Bottom line: All sorts of tings can go wrong when you put high maintenance type items (e.g. aircraft) into long term storage.

[Pilgrims Drop]

Here we go again?

Part of the fuselage lets go in the air (https://edition.cnn.com/2024/01/06/us/alaska-airlines-window-landing/index.html)

[SteveH]

Alaska Airlines again grounds all Boeing 737 Max 9 jetliners
https://www.koin.com/news/oregon/alaska-airlines-again-grounds-all-boeing-737-max-9-jetliners/


The airline said in a statement that the decision was made after receiving a notice from the Federal Aviation Administration that additional work might be needed. Other versions of the 737 are not affected.

[SteveH]

https://x.com/seansafyre/status/1744138937239822685?s=61&t=oFXcsN2wTfApq6UdUB40Qg

[SteveH]

https://x.com/aviationbrk/status/1743951168873566658?s=46&t=FtBbY0VGTU6tkFPNjgS-pg

[SteveH]

Man Finds Undamaged Cell Phone That Survived 16,000-Foot Fall From Alaska Airlines Blowout (https://jalopnik.com/still-working-cell-phone-other-items-from-midair-alask-1851148258)


The door plug itself crash landed in the back yard of a Portland-area school teacher named Bob. The National Transportation Safety Board confirmed that two cell phones from the flight have been recovered.

[cameraman]

So I'm seeing reports that the door plug is a post-production option that isn't installed by Boeing but instead it is built & installed by a maintenance contractor, Spirit AeroSystems. So Boeing reaps the terrible press and it isn't really their screw up.

[SteveH]

Spirit was formed when Boeing Commercial Airplanes sold its Wichita division to investment firm Onex Corporation in 2005. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirit_AeroSystems) no relation to Spirit Airlines

Boeing supplier that made Alaska Airlines door plug was warned of "defects" with other parts, lawsuit claims (https://www.cbsnews.com/news/boeing-loose-bolts-alaska-airlines-united-airlines-spirit-aerosystems-door-plug/)


The manufacturer of the door plug that was blown out in mid-air during a Alaska Airlines flight on Friday was the focus of a class-action lawsuit filed less than a month earlier, with the complaint alleging that Spirit AeroSystems had experienced "sustained quality failures" in its products.

Even though Spirit AeroSystems isn't Boeing, it is Boeing's responsibility. They have to take the responsibility for all third party suppliers.

[pfc_m_drake]

Correct - but my understanding is also that even though Spirit installs the door plug and ships the plane back to Boeing, Boeing then removes the door plug in order to install the interior of the aircraft (seats/etc.). So even though Spirit installs it, Boing would have removed it and 'touched it last', as it were.

[SteveH]

FAA investigating if Boeing failed to ensure certain aircraft were safe for operation after door blew on Alaska Airlines plane
https://www.cnbc.com/2024/01/11/faa-investigating-if-boeing-failed-to-ensure-aircraft-were-safe-for-operation.html

[pfc_m_drake]

FAA accident investigations are slow and methodical. If they're already targeting Boeing for safety issues then you've got your answer. Not good.

[Elmo T]

FAA accident investigations are slow and methodical. If they're already targeting Boeing for safety issues then you've got your answer. Not good.

This... and they are insanely methodical. We had a single engine experimental plane go down in a neighborhood a few years back. Pilot reported fire prior to crash. Sadly fatal.

The investigation was over two years with a literal part by part examination of the engine. Microscopic exam of parts and metal shavings. Analysis of the engine oil (what hadn't leaked out or burned). The final report was only released last fall.

I don't think the FAA & NTSB jump to conclusions without good reason.

[cameraman]

They're definitely methodical, not so much the press. Today's statement from the FAA
After taking decisive action to ground 171 Boeing 737-9 MAX airplanes, the FAA is now investigating Boeing’s manufacturing practices and production lines, including those involving subcontractor Spirit AeroSystems, bolstering its oversight of Boeing, and examining potential system change.
On Friday, the FAA announced requirements for a rigorous inspection and maintenance process as a new and necessary step before the FAA contemplates any further steps in the process to return Boeing 737-9 MAXs to service. The first 40 inspections that are part of that process are now complete, and the FAA will thoroughly review the data from them. All 737-9 MAX aircraft with door plugs will remain grounded pending the FAA’s review and final approval of an inspection and maintenance process that satisfies all FAA safety requirements. Once the FAA approves an inspection and maintenance process, it will be required on every grounded 737-9 MAX prior to future operation. The safety of the flying public, not speed, will determine the timeline for returning these aircraft to service.

[SteveH]

Boeing Whistleblower: Production Line Has “Enormous Volume Of Defects” Bolts On MAX 9 Weren’t Installed (https://viewfromthewing.com/boeing-whistleblower-production-line-has-enormous-volume-of-defects-bolts-on-max-9-werent-installed/)


So this story is far from ‘official’ but it seems knowledgeable from someone who suggests they’re a whistleblower inside of Boeing. A story in Politico this morning suggests that Boeing’s new team of lobbyists has their work cut out for them. It certainly appears so, but perhaps work needs to start at the board and C-suite level.

[SteveH]

Boeing, not Spirit, mis-installed piece that blew off Alaska MAX 9 jet, industry source says
https://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/boeing-not-spirit-mis-installed-piece-that-blew-off-alaska-max-9-jet/


The fuselage panel that blew off an Alaska Airlines jet earlier this month was removed for repair then reinstalled improperly by Boeing mechanics on the Renton final assembly line, a person familiar with the details of the work told The Seattle Times.

[TravelGal]

Boeing, not Spirit, mis-installed piece that blew off Alaska MAX 9 jet, industry source says
https://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/boeing-not-spirit-mis-installed-piece-that-blew-off-alaska-max-9-jet/

:eek::eek::eek:

[SteveH]

@TravelGal, have any of your clients specifically requested Airbus and not Boeing?

[SteveH]

New problem found on Boeing 737 Max planes
https://www.cnn.com/2024/02/04/business/boeing-737-max-holes-hnk-intl/index.html

Fortunately my son switched from Boeing to Airbus two years ago when he upgraded to Captain.

[TravelGal]

@TravelGal, have any of your clients specifically requested Airbus and not Boeing?


New problem found on Boeing 737 Max planes
https://www.cnn.com/2024/02/04/business/boeing-737-max-holes-hnk-intl/index.html

Fortunately my son switched from Boeing to Airbus two years ago when he upgraded to Captain.

Steve: Not yet (Airbus vs Boeing) but I know it's a concern. They will say, "Oh, it's a 321neo. Good."
Congrats on the Captain son!

Marge

[SteveH]

He has flown the 321neo a few times and loves it.

[SteveH]

Boeing is in the ‘last chance saloon,’ says Emirates head (https://edition.cnn.com/2024/02/05/business/boeing-last-chance-emirates-tim-clark/index.html)


Clark isn’t the first airline boss to criticize Boeing since part of the fuselage of a 737 Max 9 blew out mid-flight in early January. In an interview with CNBC last month, United CEO Scott Kirby lamented the planemaker’s “consistent manufacturing challenges.”

“I think the Max 9 grounding is probably the straw that broke the camel’s back for us,” he said. “We’re going to build a plan that doesn’t have the Max 10 in it,” he added, referring to Boeing’s newer, larger 737 model. The CEOs of American and Alaska have also voiced their frustration.

[nrc]

Geesh, folks. Aren't you watching "Masters of the Air?" Boeings are built to fly with big holes in them. :gomer:

We're booked on a 737/900 late this year. Maybe I should take my sheepskin jacket in case things get breezy.

[TravelGal]

Geesh, folks. Aren't you watching "Masters of the Air?" Boeings are built to fly with big holes in them. :gomer:

We're booked on a 737/900 late this year. Maybe I should take my sheepskin jacket in case things get breezy.

:laugh::laugh: I'm on one in March. What can I say? It was a nonstop. Let's hope it makes the *scheduled* stop.

[SteveH]

United Grounds Fleet of Planes Because Our ‘No Smoking’ Sign Law Is Ridiculous
https://gizmodo.com/united-airlines-grounds-fleet-airbus-a321neo-no-smoking-1851251203

Stupid regulations are stupid

[pfc_m_drake]

Not that I'm a Boeing apologist but Airbus isn't without their issues either. Just as (one) example: I've always been amazed at the side-stick controls. Not just their independent nature. but picture this: You hire on as a pilot, gain years of experience in the right seat flying with your right hand. Your moment finally comes, you're promoted to Captain, hop in the other seat - and throw away all your muscle memory (that you spent years acquiring) and start flying with your left hand.

If you want a second example, research how the stall warning DE-activated on AF447 by pulling BACK on the controls.

[SteveH]

That's what my son did. Went from FO in a 737 to Captain in an Airbus 320. It didn't seem bother him too much. Overall he likes the Airbus better than the 737. He said it's easier to fly because it's dumbed down for 3rd world pilots. :laugh: Actually it has more brains, more auto controls. He really likes the plane.

[pfc_m_drake]

I've heard similar (e.g. how easy it is to fly Airbus planes).
And I'm sure there are pilots who prefer Boeing (and Embraer, Bombardier, etc.)
Just pointing out that they all have their problems. Nobody's prefect.

Also not excusing Boeing Management's role either :thumbdown:

[TravelGal]

As further fallout (good word, eh?) from the continuing, worsening saga, I was booked for a 737-Max Alaska flight nonstop from LAX to Ft Lauderdale at the end of next month. Yesterday they cancelled the flight. The online booking engines have a box to check to "avoid 737s" so I was probably one of the few people on it. Given that the new option was to change in Seattle :eek::eek: I opted for a refund and to fly on Jet Blue.

[SteveH]

And I'm sure there are pilots who prefer Boeing (and Embraer, Bombardier, etc.)

My son also flew a Bombardier CRJ-200 for several years before getting in to the bigs. Fun fact: Because it has no slats (on the front of the wing) it lands at a faster speed than the 747. It has a nose down approach and flares just before landing. A bit more complex than other planes.

[pfc_m_drake]

My son also flew a Bombardier CRJ-200 for several years before getting in to the bigs. Fun fact: Because it has no slats (on the front of the wing) it lands at a faster speed than the 747. It has a nose down approach and flares just before landing. A bit more complex than other planes.I always liked flying in the CRJs actually. Probably because I'm not a super big guy and the 2x2 seating arrangement.

[SteveH]

Boeing removes head of 737 Max program in wake of safety incidents (https://www.cnn.com/2024/02/21/business/boeing-removes-head-of-737-max-program-in-wake-of-safety-incidents/index.html)


Boeing removed executive Ed Clark, the head of its 737 Max passenger jet program, after a dramatic – and terrifying – midair blowout in January underscored ongoing problems with the jet.

[pfc_m_drake]

It's a good start (I guess) but it sounds like Boeing's problems these days are deeper than one person.

[nrc]

Good story on the origins of Boeing's woes.

https://fortune.com/2024/02/22/boeing-stock-crash-history-737-outlook/

Root cause is claimed to be Boeing's decision to spin-off and outsource airframes and sub-systems, even down to design. Instead of having start to finish control over quality they're left trying to integrate everything and then ensure quality with testing and inspection.

This another classic case of the endless push and pull over who is running these companies - product people or accountants.

[SteveH]

Aviation safety panel finds Boeing culture included safety ‘gaps,’ fear of retaliation (https://www.cnn.com/2024/02/26/business/aviation-safety-panel-finds-boeing-culture-included-safety-gaps-fear-of-retaliation/index.html)


The Federal Aviation Administration issued a report Monday sharply critical of the safety culture at Boeing, following two fatal crashes and several years of safety and quality issues at the troubled aircraft maker.

Despite Boeing’s repreated claims of its commitment to safety procedures, the report by a panel of industry experts said it did not find “objective evidence of a foundational commitment to safety that matched Boeing’s descriptions of that objective.”

[SteveH]

I’m Not Trying to Cause a Scene. I Just Want to Get Off This Plane.’
https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2024/02/26/former-boeing-employee-speaks-out-00142948


In 2018, Ed Pierson decided that he could no longer work as a senior manager for Boeing’s 737 MAX program.

At the company’s production facility in Renton, Washington, he had watched as employee morale plummeted and oversight and assembly procedures faltered. He told his superiors but retired soon after. But then fatal MAX 8 crashes occurred in 2018 and 2019. He decided to speak up publicly and was then called to testify before Congress on the problems he says he saw up close.

[pfc_m_drake]

To add to all of this, I'm not even sure (to this date) we've quantified the impact of the powder metal contamination in the LEAP engines that they discovered a year or two ago. It didn't get much 'press' because it's a complicated issue to understand (I'll dive in if there's interest) and not as 'sexy' as a door plug blowing out...but it's not something I like thinking about.

To add some color, P&W just took a $3 billion charge on a similar issue with the PW1000G and PW1100G (commonly found on the AirBus A320neo family).

[SteveH]

To add to all of this, I'm not even sure (to this date) we've quantified the impact of the powder metal contamination in the LEAP engines that they discovered a year or two ago. It didn't get much 'press' because it's a complicated issue to understand (I'll dive in if there's interest) and not as 'sexy' as a door plug blowing out...but it's not something I like thinking about.

To add some color, P&W just took a $3 billion charge on a similar issue with the PW1000G and PW1100G (commonly found on the AirBus A320neo family).

Please go on...

[pfc_m_drake]

Engines like the LEAP and the PW1000G (found on the 737MAX and 320neo) series have gotten more efficient by shrinking the core of the engine and increasing the bypass. In order to produce the required power the shrunken core needs to run hotter.

The hottest components in the engine are typically made of powder nickel based alloys (nothing else would survive the high temperature). The nickel powder metal process is wicked (involving first atomizing the different metal elements into a powder, then sifting and filtering that powder over and over, then putting the powder into a can (looks like a hot water tank), then putting the can in a furnace under 25,000 psi pressure, then forging, then grinding the exterior of the can off, then forging again). You get the idea...wicked. It can sometimes be 70 weeks just to get the RAW material complete - forget about machining the finished parts (read: supply chain issues).

Cleanliness is key to the powder metal process and both P&W and GE have suffered contamination at sub-suppliers. The result: Engine components need to be overhauled at a much shorter interval than scheduled.

P&W took a $3 billion charge on the PW1000G series.
GE is being very coy about how many LEAP engines are affected (737max model).

It would be another black eye to the 737max program if some (all?) of the engines needed to be overhauled at half-service interval (for example).

It would be a disaster if a 737max were to crash on takeoff (hottest portion of the flight for an engine) due to failure of a contaminated powder metal part in the engine.

You're bored now...sorry...but that's the gist.

[pfc_m_drake]

A few references:

https://www.cnbc.com/2023/09/11/rtx-to-take-3-billion-charge-on-pratt-whitney-engine-problem.html
https://airinsight.com/powder-metal-issue-affects-more-general-electric-ge90s/
https://airinsight.com/cfm-leap-and-genx-also-affected-by-powder-metal-contamination/

[SteveH]

Thank you, not bored

[SteveH]

Boeing in Talks to Buy Troubled Supplier Spirit AeroSystems
https://www.wsj.com/business/airlines/boeing-in-talks-to-buy-troubled-supplier-spirit-aerosystems-22e0db4e

Need a subscription but the headline says it all

[SteveH]

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2024/03/report-boeing-may-reacquire-spirit-at-higher-price-despite-hating-optics/

[pfc_m_drake]

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2024/03/report-boeing-may-reacquire-spirit-at-higher-price-despite-hating-optics/
I could see it helping, BUT I don't know if bringing Spirit back under the wing of Boeing Management is the complete solution.

[SteveH]

Passengers sue Boeing, Alaska Airlines for $1 billion over midair door panel blowout
https://www.nbcnews.com/business/business-news/passengers-sue-boeing-alaska-airlines-1-billion-dollars-blowout-rcna141636

Seems a bit harsh

[SteveH]

https://i.redd.it/r2md7wu4edmc1.jpeg

[SteveH]

American orders 260 new planes, including Boeing Max 10s, and plans bigger first class
https://www.cnbc.com/2024/03/04/american-airlines-orders-hundreds-of-new-planes.html

[stroker]

Prolly a stupid question, but maybe somebody here knows--how many hours does it take to "wear out" a typical airliner? What would be the expected lifespan, barring unexpected damage, etc.?

[SteveH]

How Long Does a Commercial Aircraft Last? (https://www.aviationfile.com/how-long-does-a-commercial-aircraft-last/#google_vignette)

[TravelGal]

How Long Does a Commercial Aircraft Last? (https://www.aviationfile.com/how-long-does-a-commercial-aircraft-last/#google_vignette)

Love this article. I'll be sharing it. The statistics given square with what I've heard before. You can fly some pretty old stuff as it gets sold down the chain of the world's airlines.

[SteveH]

In 1988 the roof ripped off of Aloha Airlines 737. I think it was due to the extreme number of pressure/depressurizations it had while jumping from island to island several times/day not the hours of airtime.


More here https://imgur.com/a/GE9jh

[pfc_m_drake]

In 1988 the roof ripped off of Aloha Airlines 737. I think it was due to the extreme number of pressure/depressurizations it had while jumping from island to island several times/day not the hours of airtime.


More here https://imgur.com/a/GE9jh
Yep - that phenomena is known as low-cycle-fatigue (LCF). Cycles can be more important than hours sometimes.
When an aircraft has an incident and you read the report it always says, "The aircraft had accumulated X hours of flight time and Y cycles."

Since engines are my specialty, here's a good article on aircraft engine life (https://simpleflying.com/how-often-do-jet-engines-require-overhauls/#:~:text=The%20average%20number%20of%20hours,depen ding%20on%20the%20component%20group.)

[SteveH]

United to pause pilot hiring, citing Boeing’s delivery delays
https://www.cnbc.com/2024/03/07/united-to-pause-pilot-hiring-citing-boeings-delivery-delays.html



United executives said the carrier can’t grow as fast as it planned due to Boeing’s delivery delays.

The airline expected to get 77 Boeing 737 Max 8 and 9 planes this year but now forecasts it will receive 56 of them.

United managers told pilots that it will pause hiring new aviators in May and June.

[SteveH]

Another Boeing Max mishap: NTSB probes 'stuck' rudder pedals on United Airlines flight to New Jersey
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/another-boeing-max-mishap-ntsb-probes-stuck-rudder-pedals-united-airli-rcna142286

[nrc]

Oopsie.

JUST IN - United Boeing 737 MAX suffers gear collapse after landing in Houston, Texas.

https://twitter.com/disclosetv/status/1766138389638664444