Much troubled airliner

[nrc]

Uh oh. Now Boeing has a "much troubled" airliner.


Boeing Co. (BA) announced another delay in delivery of its much-troubled 787 Dreamliner, which has experienced a series of setbacks caused largely by work that had to be done on the final assembly line after it was not handled at supplier factories as planned.
http://money.cnn.com/news/newsfeeds/articles/djf500/200804090955DOWJONESDJONLINE000715_FORTUNE5.htm

[Ankf00]

last year a buddy at Alcoa was mentioning how much trouble they were having implementing Boeing's processes and how Boeing had to send people out for quite some time to rectify all issues. then we talked about how smaller or less capable suppliers were going to cope w/ such issues if Alcoa of all co's couldn't handle things on their own end.

[Wheel-Nut]

Airbus to Boeing . . .

[Andrew Longman]

So what changed between the 777 and 787? That launch went so well. I know each plane requires its own manufacturing processes both at Boeing and at the suppliers, the the process of getting those processes in place and bulletproof was very good for Boeing.

[coolhand]

Does this have to do with the global supply chain? With so many different manufacturers it is hard to make sure they are all on time.

[Sean Malone]

Do we really need another commercial jetliner? Bring back the rigid airship dag nabit!!

[dando]

So what changed between the 777 and 787? That launch went so well. I know each plane requires its own manufacturing processes both at Boeing and at the suppliers, the the process of getting those processes in place and bulletproof was very good for Boeing.

One would assume that they are having issues with fabricating the frame and carbon fiber skin.

-Kevin

[dando]

Do we really need another commercial jetliner? Bring back the rigid airship dag nabit!!

Zeppelins, yo. :gomer:

-Kevin

[Insomniac]

Zeppelins, yo. :gomer:

-Kevin

Trains and Ocean Liners (or Teleportation). :)

[Sean Malone]

Trains and Ocean Liners (or Teleportation). :)

A bullet train in the States would rock. Will never happen, but would be cool.

[Insomniac]

A bullet train in the States would rock. Will never happen, but would be cool.

I was reading something a few months back about how bad the U.S. train infrastructure is now. On an on topic note, it seems like all the U.S. transportation infrastructure is a mess. Roads and bridges aren't being maintained as well as they should, railroads can't be easily upgraded for newer, higher speed trains and the FAA uses an air traffic control system that is from the 1960s.

[cameraman]

That all costs money, tax money. Do you want to be the Senator who tries to raise the Federal gas tax to a number that makes more sense than $0.184 per gallon?

[dando]

That all costs money, tax money. Do you want to be the Senator who tries to raise the Federal gas tax to a number that makes more sense than $0.184 per gallon?

Well, if we weren't rebuilding what we done blowed up overseas.... :saywhat: :shakehead :irked:

-Kevin

[oddlycalm]

So what changed between the 777 and 787? Fundamentally everything. The 777 components were brought in and assembled at Everett, wired, then sent to the Boeing Field make-ready facility for fitting out the interiors to customer spec. Many more of the components were made by Boeing Auburn or Everett.

The 787 is being built by vendor as sub-assemblies completely wired and will be "snapped" together at Everett. Each sub-assembly is supposed to come complete including all wiring, tubing, etc.

Seriously ambitious, and since it's never been done before there is no road map to follow. They've bet the farm, so they have to make it work. If their subcontractors don't perform there is no plan B.

oc

[indyfan31]

OC. does that involve any overseas subcontractors?

[KLang]

If their subcontractors don't perform there is no plan B.

I thought I read recently that Boeing bought into or increased their ownership of one of the subs in order to exert more control.

[dando]

OC. does that involve any overseas subcontractors?

Yup.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_787#Production

-Kevin

[emjaya]

Yup.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_787#Production

-Kevin

Is that going to work?

Flying parts in from Australia, Japan and Italy must be expensive. :\

[Ankf00]

Is that going to work?

Flying parts in from Australia, Japan and Italy must be expensive. :\

in return australia, japan, and italy have to front the overhead and capital costs

[oddlycalm]

OC. does that involve any overseas subcontractors? Yep, many if not most as you can see in the Wiki link Kevin posted. Not only do all those subs need to stay on schedule, all the inspection needs to be done before shipment.

Easy to see the advantage to Boeing. Instead of an airplane takes weeks or months to build, all the while taking up floor space, Boeing plans to assemble the sub-assemblies and roll the plane in a week. The concept is brilliant but kick starting such a complex operation is an epic undertaking.

On every level this is a revolutionary process. Among the aspects rarely discussed are all the processes being brought to bear on the component management and assembly process once the sub-assemblies arrive. Instead of the huge and unwieldy hard tooling that has been traditionally used to align sub-assemblies for assembly they are using computerized alignment systems (aka soft tooling) to align and position properly everything properly as it goes together. They also have a computerized system of managing the sub-assemblies as they hit the shop floor. While these are all existing technologies are being used on a scale of complexity no company has ever attempted.

Historically they have gotten it right a lot more often than they have gotten it wrong, but this program defines the word ambitious.

oc

[dando]

Yep, many if not most as you can see in the Wiki link Kevin posted. Not only do all those subs need to stay on schedule, all the inspection needs to be done before shipment.

Easy to see the advantage to Boeing. Instead of an airplane takes weeks or months to build, all the while taking up floor space, Boeing plans to assemble the sub-assemblies and roll the plane in a week. The concept is brilliant but kick starting such a complex operation is an epic undertaking.

On every level this is a revolutionary process. Among the aspects rarely discussed are all the processes being brought to bear on the component management and assembly process once the sub-assemblies arrive. Instead of the huge and unwieldy hard tooling that has been traditionally used to align sub-assemblies for assembly they are using computerized alignment systems (aka soft tooling) to align and position properly everything properly as it goes together. They also have a computerized system of managing tIn my he sub-assemblies as they hit the shop floor. While these are all existing technologies are being used on a scale of complexity no company has ever attempted.

Historically they have gotten it right a lot more often than they have gotten it wrong, but this program defines the word ambitious.

oc

In my world, this would be CMMI 6. :eek: x11

-Kevin

[BZSetshot]

Here we go, flip-side of the coin:

Airlines line up for 787 Compensation (http://www.reuters.com/article/businessNews/idUSWEL6935420080410?feedType=RSS&feedName=businessNews)


WELLINGTON/TOKYO (Reuters) - Airlines lined up on Thursday for compensation after Boeing Co (BA.N: Quote, Profile, Research) announced a further six-month delay for its new 787 Dreamliner plane.

Air New Zealand, Air India and Japan's two big carriers, All Nippon Airways and Japan Airlines, were among those eyeing redress along with Virgin and British Airways.

...

The problems at Boeing mirror embarrassing and costly delays at rival Airbus, a unit of European aerospace group EADS, which was two years late with its A380 super jumbo.

[Gnam]

Boeing should start a "Worth the wait" ad campaign. :D

[emjaya]

QANTAS has cancelled orders for 15 Boeing 787 Dreamliners and delayed the deliver of a further 15 aircraft due to turbulent market conditions.

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,27574,25692883-29277,00.html

[TravelGal]

You guys may know more, I but this is in today's agent briefing. I'm thinking that just because the window is "open" it doesn't mean anything is going to fly though it...

Boeing To Flight Test Dreamliner Tomorrow

The company said it had opened the flight-test window for its 787 Dreamliner, starting tomorrow.

The flight test is two years behind schedule. There is an excellent blog on the 787 and if you want

to follow its first flight you can do so from here http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/flightblogger/

John Ostrower, who writes the blog, has been following the 787 since its inception.

[nrc]

The Dreamliner lands at Farnborough. Still some possible turbulence between them and delivery but looks like they're still hoping to get it done this year.

qzOZ61HADRk

http://www.reuters.com/article/slideshow/idUSTRE66H0RH20100718#a=3

[cameraman]

It's a pr bit o' fluff (http://www.wired.com/autopia/2010/10/video-sparks-fly-as-boeing-drags-787-tail-on-the-runway/) but kind of interesting anyway.

Also the FAA can out with a minimum landing spacing of 10 miles behind the 787. Double that of a 747:saywhat:

[chop456]

How is that possible? Did they explain the reasoning behind it?

[cameraman]

You mean the doubt and confusion behind them. They don't seem to know what the wingtip turbulence will be like so they are issuing a very conservative number until they get some more of the planes in the air and see how it goes. At least that is what they think they will do unless they decide to do something else in which case it could be different but they are not sure and they were very firm about that.

[oddlycalm]

It's routine FAA. They always err on the side of caution until they have hard numbers on wake turbulence. Once they dial in on the actual requirement it'll come down.

It's an accurate reflection of how serious an issue wake turbulence is. This is something nobody saw coming when the 747 first rolled out and it took some scary incidents to wake everyone up. Not sure if you've ever heard this but the wide body planes are always designated at "heavy" after their call sign in any radio communications, another reflection of how serious an issue it is.

oc

[Classic Apex]

Got Marshmallow's? (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/2013387936_787emergency10.html?prmid=related_stori es_section)


Electrical fire forces emergency landing of 787 test plane



A serious in-flight fire in the electric equipment bay of a Boeing 787 Dreamliner flight test plane forced an emergency landing in Laredo, Texas, Tuesday. All aboard were safely evacuated on slides.

The fire affected the cockpit controls and the jet lost its primary flight displays and its auto-throttle, according to a person familiar with the incident. The flight and engine controls, which on the Dreamliner are all-electric, weren't fully functional, this person said.

A small emergency power generator called the Ram Air Turbine (RAT) that typically kicks in only when both primary and auxiliary power sources are lost was automatically deployed. The RAT — a device like a small dynamo that drops down from the fuselage and generates power from the air flowing past the aircraft — provides sufficient power for flight controls and other vital systems in an emergency.

The smoke in the back of the cabin of Dreamliner No. 2, where a team of flight technicians sat at computer workstations monitoring the flight data, was first detected on approach to the Laredo airport after six hours of flying.

As the incident escalated, the pilot declared an emergency, landed the plane, and activated the emergency slides.

The 30 to 40 people aboard were able to get out safely.

"The aircraft landed at Laredo at about 2:54 Central Time," said Federal Aviation Adminstration spokesman Lynn Lunsford. "The aircraft was evacuated on the runway. They pulled the slides."

Flames were observed in the rear electrical/electronics (EE) bay, which is underneath the passenger cabin, said two people who were informed of the details.

On most airliners, most of the flight controls are operated using pneumatic or hydraulic systems. One of the innovations on the Dreamliner is that all the controls are electric.

"If this had happened at 25,000 feet, we might be talking about something much more serious," said a person close to the situation.

Boeing spokeswoman Lori Gunter said it's too early to speculate on the cause.

The test airplane took off from Yuma, Ariz., early Tuesday morning in search of hot weather for a test of the nitrogen generating system that reduces the flammability of the jet fuel inside the wing tanks.

The system injects nitrogen into the space above the fuel as the tank empties; the fuel is more volatile when hot.

The plane had originally filed a flight plan to fly to Harlingen, Texas, but the pilots decided instead to land in Laredo because weather conditions there looked better for their test, Gunter said.

The FAA's Lunsford confirmed that the plane was not diverted. He said the FAA will look into the incident with Boeing to determine the cause.

[Steve99]

The fire affected the cockpit controls and the jet lost its primary flight displays and its auto-throttle, according to a person familiar with the incident. The flight and engine controls, which on the Dreamliner are all-electric, weren't fully functional, this person said.
And they still managed to land safely. I'm impressed by their backup systems.

[dando]

Ruh roh...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2012/may/29/cyber-attack-concerns-boeing-chip


Two Cambridge experts have discovered a "back door" in a computer chip used in military systems and aircraft such as the Boeing 787 that could allow the chip to be taken over via the internet.

The discovery will heighten concerns about the risks of cyber-attacks on sensitive installations, coming on the heels of the discovery this week of the 'Flamer' virus which has been attacking computer systems in Iran, Syria and Saudi Arabia.

All your base... :saywhat: :eek:

-Kevin

[dando]

More uh-ohs....

http://www.cnbc.com/id/100363734

-Kevin

[TravelGal]

A few other tidbits from our briefing:

Fire Breaks Out In Underbelly Of JAL Dreamliner
A fire broke out in the underbelly of a parked Boeing 787 Dreamliner at Boston's Logan International Airport yesterday morning. No passengers were on board the Japan Airlines-operated jet at the time. In a statement released Monday afternoon, the Federal Aviation Administration said it is investigating the fire. "The fire was reported after the passengers and crew had exited the aircraft. There were no injuries reported. The National Transportation Safety Board will investigate the incident. Firefighters classified the fire as fairly significant. The plane, scheduled as JAL flight 007, came from Narita and San Diego. The Wall Street Journal reports that the Fire Rescue Chief said firefighters encountered heavy smoke in the entire cabin of the plane and used thermal imaging devices to determine the source of the fire. He said the fire was located in the avionics compartment and began in a battery that was part of an auxiliary power unit that is used only when the plane is on the ground and its engines are turned off.

[Don Quixote]

Prius batteries. I knew it.

[dando]

Fuel leak on another JAL 787. (http://blogs.wsj.com/corporate-intelligence/2013/01/08/boeing-has-another-dreamliner-mishap-fuel-leak-in-boston/)

-Kevin

[TravelGal]

Fuel leak on another JAL 787. (http://blogs.wsj.com/corporate-intelligence/2013/01/08/boeing-has-another-dreamliner-mishap-fuel-leak-in-boston/)

-Kevin

Too much tempura.

[cameraman]

And add brake failure to the list with today's canceled 787 flight:saywhat:

http://www.nbcnews.com/business/boeing-787-suffers-third-mishap-many-days-1B7906402

They are all unrelated issues but jeez...

[TravelGal]

Last part of today's ARTA article. Talk about Hobson's choice (last sentence).

The three incidents have added to growing concerns about the Dreamliner which has had many problems. Electrical faults have affected flights and delayed deliveries of the new jet to airlines. The latest episode comes after the FAA had already launched a probe and discovered fuel line assembly errors. It said that the faults could result in fire risk from leaks dripping on hot engine parts or causing the aircraft to run out of fuel.

[dando]

Feds to review the Dreamliner. (http://www.cnn.com/2013/01/11/travel/dreamliner-problems/index.html?hpt=hp_t1)

-Kevin

[nrc]

Well that's not good.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/01/16/us-boeing-ana-idUSBRE90F01820130116

[dando]

Is this thing the Edsel in the air?

-Kevin

[Andrew Longman]

I took one before christmas and I have to say I loved it. The big windows and ambient lighting alone are worth it.

[nrc]

Nothing that has come up so far should be big deal to get fixed. As long as they can isolate the problem. I'm guessing there's something about the airline duty cycle on this auxiliary power unit that they really didn't simulate in testing.

[cameraman]

And the FAA follows suit and grounds United's half dozen 787s.

[SteveH]

LOT Polish Airlines had their inaugural Warsaw to Chicago 787 flight today. A celebration at O'Hare was planned upon arrival. Instead the plane was grounded. oops

http://www.usatoday.com/videos/news/nation/2013/01/16/passengers-grounded-with-787-at-chicagos-ohare/1841237/

[dando]

http://www.cnn.com/2013/01/24/travel/dreamliner-investigation/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

:eek:

-Kevin

[Gnam]

Thursday painted a graphic picture of a disaster averted, displaying the charred remnants of a battery that "spewed molten electrolytes"
It's got what planes crave!

[TravelGal]

Let's just say I'm glad I sold my Boeing stock. A long time ago. After about the third extended, crippling strike while they had backorders for hundreds of planes. :rolleyes:

[TravelGal]

Paging Mr. Elmo T. Paging Mr. Elmo T.

NTSB Investigators Said Damage To Dreamliner Batteries Severe
The National Transportation Safety Board investigators said the damage to the batteries that caught fire was severe and finding the cause won't happen overnight. The chairman of the NTSB said yesterday that the significance "cannot be overstated" of the fire Jan. 7 on a Japan Airlines plane and a smoldering battery on Jan. 16 that forced the emergency landing of an All Nippon Airways flight in Japan. "The expectation in aviation is to never experience a fire aboard an aircraft," she said. The fire damaged the plane's structure and its components within 20 inches of the battery called an auxiliary power unit. The lithium-ion battery from the Boston plane has signs of short circuits and a "thermal runaway," which is a chemical reaction that overheats the battery and cannot be controlled. But it isn't known yet which event came first or why they occurred. Besides Boeing, NTSB officials are working with: Securaplane Technologies in Tucson, which made the charger; United Technologies Aerospace Systems for a battery controller in Phoenix; and Kanto Aircraft instrument for battery monitoring in Japan. NTSB officials are also learning about lithium batteries from the Naval Surface Warfare Center's Carderock Division. Investigators have X-rayed, CT-scanned and taken apart the Boston battery. So far, Hersman said, the damage reflects the symptoms of the problems rather than what caused them. Boeing has halted deliveries of the planes, with nearly 850 on order. Airlines have canceled flights into mid-February while waiting for a remedy.


Whistleblower Says Dreamliner Batteries Could 'Explode'
Michael Leon is a former employee of Securaplane Technologies in Tucson who claims he was fired for voicing his concerns about the batteries to his employer. He sued but lost his case. He is adamant about his fear of the use of the lithium-ion batteries on the Dreamliner, saying they will go into thermal runaway and will explode. Securaplane manufactures the charging system for lithium-ion batteries used on 787 Dreamliners and its plant in Tucson is one of the locations visited by investigators from the NTSB as they try to determine what went wrong with two Dreamliners earlier this month. Leon was a senior engineering technician at Securaplane in 2006 conducting tests for the charging units that work with the lithium-ion batteries in the Dreamliner. Leon says what happened one day is a scene he will never forget. "This lithium-ion battery just decided to explode," said Leon. "The magnitude of energy that came out of this battery I cannot quantify it. I ran out of there and armed myself with 30 pounds of Halon and I ran back into the inferno. By then all the walls were on fire." Boeing says it was the result of a test set up improperly, and it was not a case where a lithium-ion battery simply exploded for no reason. The primary concern of the batteries is the potential flammability of the batteries. The NTSB said it knew the lithium-ion battery experienced a thermal runaway, it knows that there were short circuits and they know there was a fire. What they don't know at this point is what exactly prompted the battery malfunctions.

[dando]

Boeing is the Dell of the airways. :gomer: :saywhat:

-Kevin

[Insomniac]

Let's just say I'm glad I sold my Boeing stock. A long time ago. After about the third extended, crippling strike while they had backorders for hundreds of planes. :rolleyes:

So far, it's had no impact on their stock price. Maybe because the planes are sold and they have plenty of orders. No one is really going to cancel since they are in a queue and Boeing will figure it out.

[TravelGal]

So far, it's had no impact on their stock price. Maybe because the planes are sold and they have plenty of orders. No one is really going to cancel since they are in a queue and Boeing will figure it out.

The tip of the iceberg is just beginning to show. That said, the stock is about as volatile as one gets anyway. From 2007 to 2009 it went from more than $106 to a few cents over $30. Airplane orders get cancelled all the time but the dreamliner is the future for the carriers with megabucks. They have already built their entire advertising campaigns around it. Not to mention their financial projections and expansion plans. I don't have the faith in Boeing that you do but I hope you're right.

[Insomniac]

The tip of the iceberg is just beginning to show. That said, the stock is about as volatile as one gets anyway. From 2007 to 2009 it went from more than $106 to a few cents over $30. Airplane orders get cancelled all the time but the dreamliner is the future for the carriers with megabucks. They have already built their entire advertising campaigns around it. Not to mention their financial projections and expansion plans. I don't have the faith in Boeing that you do but I hope you're right.

I don't want to say I have faith, more of an assumption that engineers who could build such a plane can find the source of issues.

Generally there are non-refundable fees to reserve your spot in line for airplane orders. I think it's too early for those people to cancel their orders and eat the loss.

I think that is why the stock price has remained stable (although it is odd, I would've expected some type of overreaction on the news).

[dando]

Possibly grounded until '14?

http://news.cnet.com/8301-11386_3-57566066-76/boeing-battery-solution-may-keep-787-grounded-until-2014/

:eek: :saywhat: :shakehead

-Kevin

[chop456]

Dreamliner: Boeing 787 aircraft battery 'not faulty' (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-21230940)

[Elmo T]

Paging Mr. Elmo T. Paging Mr. Elmo T.

NTSB Investigators Said Damage To Dreamliner Batteries Severe


Whistleblower Says Dreamliner Batteries Could 'Explode'


:irked:

Problem here will be who has the better "experts".

Clearly the batteries were involved in the fires - the obvious symptom as the article notes. Just like I've seen plenty of electrical outlet fires. But proving that the devices themselves are ALL faulty (or even a portion of) is difficult - or WHICH connected device is faulty or installed wrong. And each mfg will have their own experts. And attorneys. :rolleyes:

How bad is the finger-pointing nowadays? <blog> We had a sprinkler activate in a hotel room where the gas fireplace was left on "high" for two days. The room was HOT (and flooded) when the fire department arrived. The fireplace did not malfunction - it was left on and in the highest mode. The sprinkler didn't malfunction - the room was clearly hot enough for the sprinkler to fuse (open). Caused water damage to store below. A month later, I met onsite with no less than 25 people: sprinkler installer their attorney and a photographer; sprinkler head mfg, their attorney, and a forensic engineer; fireplace mfg their attorney and a photographer and an engineer; hotel insurance co and their attorney.... you get the idea. And this was NOT a fleet of airliners. :saywhat:

[dando]

Dreamliner: Boeing 787 aircraft battery 'not faulty' (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-21230940)

What I heard this AM was that the batteries need better ventilation or cooling fan. Kinda makes sense...I have a desk in the home office that houses a desktop box. If I keep the door closed, there is massive heat build up. There's also a reason there are cooling pads/devices for laptops. If I have my laptop on my lap for too long, it's cajones over easy. :saywhat:

-Kevin

[TravelGal]

What I heard this AM was that the batteries need better ventilation or cooling fan. Kinda makes sense...I have a desk in the home office that houses a desktop box. If I keep the door closed, there is massive heat build up. There's also a reason there are cooling pads/devices for laptops. If I have my laptop on my lap for too long, it's cajones over easy. :saywhat:

-Kevin

Buy a new laptop. My new one doesn't fricassee me like the old one did. Still have an older desktop, however. In winter I shut the door and never need to turn on the central heat. In summer....... fan city.

PS, thanks Elmo. Good point.

[SteveH]

LOT Polish Airlines had their inaugural Warsaw to Chicago 787 flight today. A celebration at O'Hare was planned upon arrival. Instead the plane was grounded. oops

http://www.usatoday.com/videos/news/nation/2013/01/16/passengers-grounded-with-787-at-chicagos-ohare/1841237/

Flew out of O'Hare today, while taxiing I saw the above 787 pulled off to the side. Looking lonely. Might be there for a while.

[dando]

Buy a new laptop. My new one doesn't fricassee me like the old one did. Still have an older desktop, however. In winter I shut the door and never need to turn on the central heat. In summer....... fan city.

PS, thanks Elmo. Good point.

I use a variety of laptops. The main one I use for work....and, ummm...some brief diversions to OC, and some ummm...work. Yeah, yeah...that's the ticket. Is a MacBook Pro from last year. No fan == cooked

</Jon Lovitz>

;)

-Kevin

[TravelGal]

From "Travel Mole" 2/1/13

It was only a matter of time before it happened.

ANA, the operator of a third of the 50 Dreamliners currently delivered is talking compensation from manufacturer, Boeing.

The airline said at a news conference this week that its priority was to find out what is wrong with the aircraft that has been grounded worldwide since battery fires grounded JAL aircraft earlier in the month, but that it would seek reimbursement from Boeing once the complete picture is seen.

Boeing did not expect a "significant financial impact" from the issue in 2013 but CNN reports that they acknowledged that this might change once investigators get to the bottom of the increasingly puzzling problems with the carbon-fiber aircraft that has been widely seen as the future of commercial aviation.

[TravelGal]

Naval Surface Warfare Center. :eek:

Investigation Continues On Dreamliner
Investigators have not found enough evidence in the charred remains of two Boeing 787 batteries to determine why they overheated, and they are expanding their examination of other electrical components, regulators in Washington and Tokyo said on Friday. Industry officials said that United Airlines had replaced three batteries on the six 787s it received from September through December because they were wearing out sooner than expected. ANA, the first airline to get the 787 and its biggest operator, said last week that it had replaced 10 batteries on its 17 jets from May to December. Investigators are now looking for these batteries and others from different operators to see if they can provide any clues to the problems that led to the grounding of all 50 787s delivered so far. The National Transportation Safety Board said Friday that it would send an investigator to France to test a part that connects the battery to the plane's wiring. This connector is the fourth component to come under scrutiny in the jet's innovative electrical system. Investigators have also inspected the plants that made the battery charger and a controller unit, which are both in Arizona, as well as a facility that makes the battery's monitoring unit in Japan. The battery itself, using a volatile lithium-cobalt chemistry, is made by GS Yuasa in Japan. In an update last Friday the NTSB said it was still testing the battery that ignited on a Japan Airlines 787 while parked at Boston's Logan International Airport on Jan. 7. The NTSB has asked the Naval Surface Warfare Center, which has worked with lithium-ion technology since at least the 1970s, to assist in the investigation.

[stroker]

Naval Surface Warfare Center. :eek:

Investigation Continues On Dreamliner
Investigators have not found enough evidence in the charred remains of two Boeing 787 batteries to determine why they overheated, and they are expanding their examination of other electrical components, regulators in Washington and Tokyo said on Friday. Industry officials said that United Airlines had replaced three batteries on the six 787s it received from September through December because they were wearing out sooner than expected. ANA, the first airline to get the 787 and its biggest operator, said last week that it had replaced 10 batteries on its 17 jets from May to December. Investigators are now looking for these batteries and others from different operators to see if they can provide any clues to the problems that led to the grounding of all 50 787s delivered so far. The National Transportation Safety Board said Friday that it would send an investigator to France to test a part that connects the battery to the plane's wiring. This connector is the fourth component to come under scrutiny in the jet's innovative electrical system. Investigators have also inspected the plants that made the battery charger and a controller unit, which are both in Arizona, as well as a facility that makes the battery's monitoring unit in Japan. The battery itself, using a volatile lithium-cobalt chemistry, is made by GS Yuasa in Japan. In an update last Friday the NTSB said it was still testing the battery that ignited on a Japan Airlines 787 while parked at Boston's Logan International Airport on Jan. 7. The NTSB has asked the Naval Surface Warfare Center, which has worked with lithium-ion technology since at least the 1970s, to assist in the investigation.

Let's see if any of those subcontractors have anything to do with Scarebus.

[Elmo T]

Not that these are the same batteries by any means - but an example of what can happen:

UL warns of Li-ion batteries with counterfeit UL Mark (Release 12PN-67) (http://www.ul.com/global/eng/pages/corporate/newsroom/newsitem.jsp?cpath=/global/eng/content/corporate/newsroom/publicnotices/data/ul-warns-of-li-ion-batteries-with-counterfeit-ul_20130215080000.xml)

:shakehead

[Andrew Longman]

Not that these are the same batteries by any means - but an example of what can happen:

UL warns of Li-ion batteries with counterfeit UL Mark (Release 12PN-67) (http://www.ul.com/global/eng/pages/corporate/newsroom/newsitem.jsp?cpath=/global/eng/content/corporate/newsroom/publicnotices/data/ul-warns-of-li-ion-batteries-with-counterfeit-ul_20130215080000.xml)

:shakeheadFriggin' Chinese. What are people thinking when they do this crap?

On the other hand the Fonterra contaminated milk scandal resulted in 2 executions, a suspended death sentence, 3 life terms, 2 15-year terms, seven force resignations including the top director of quality supervision.

Compare that to prosecutions (pick any of them) coming out of the banking crisis.

[TravelGal]

Let's see if any of those subcontractors have anything to do with Scarebus.

Airbus Will Ditch Lithium-Ion Batteries In Their New A350
Airbus has started informing airlines that have ordered the new A350 that the new plane will have Nickel-Cadmium batteries, rather than lithium-ion batteries. Airbus said the move is based entirely on reducing uncertainty in the program schedule, not due to any safety concerns. and will continue working on eventually using lithium-ion batteries in A350 models, but until questions about the reliability of those batteries are resolved, the European plane maker will use nickel-cadmium batteries. Airbus is on track on deliver the A350 late next year.

[stroker]

On the other hand the Fonterra contaminated milk scandal resulted in 2 executions, a suspended death sentence, 3 life terms, 2 15-year terms, seven force resignations including the top director of quality supervision.

I believe the business phrase for that is "cost of doing business". At least it is for the PRC.

[Insomniac]

Friggin' Chinese. What are people thinking when they do this crap?

Only ¥¥¥.

[TravelGal]

Japan Says Boeing 787 Battery Improperly Wired On Dreamliner
An investigation into the overheating of a lithium ion battery in an All Nippon Airways Boeing 787 found it was improperly wired, Japan's Transport Ministry said Wednesday.The Transport Safety Board said in a report that the battery of the aircraft's auxiliary power unit was incorrectly connected to the main battery that overheated, although a protective valve would have prevented power from the APU from doing damage. Flickering of the plane's tail and wing lights after it landed and the fact the main battery was switched off led the investigators to conclude there was an abnormal current traveling from the APU due to miswiring. The agency said that more analysis was needed to determine what caused the main battery to overheat and emit the smoke that prompted the Jan. 16 emergency landing of the ANA domestic flight and the worldwide grounding of Boeing 787 jets.

[TravelGal]

United Airlines Cancels 787 Flights Through June 5

UA postponed its new Denver/Tokyo service. United spokeswoman Christen David said the plane could still fly earlier than June 5 if a fix is found. At that point it would be used as needed around United's system, she said. United was due to begin flying from Denver to Tokyo's Narita airport on March 31. It's postponing the start of those flights at least until May 12, or longer if the 787 isn't cleared to fly.

[SteveH]

My son has a friend who is a FO for United on the 787. Sitting at home getting paid the contract minimum for not flying. Would cost United more to recertify the 787 pilots for their previous craft than to just pay them for not flying.

[racermike]

Well my contract with one of Boeing subsidiaries is ending next week.

Was a fun ride while it lasted, even though there is a glimmer of hope I can go back as regular employee rather than contract this summer.

Stupid 1 year contract rules ....

[TravelGal]

Racermike, maybe you can make the new boxes. :) I'll add that the FAA was apparently less than enthused.
Boeing Presented A Full Battery Fix To The FAA Last Friday
Friday the Boeing Co on Friday gave U.S. aviation regulators its plan to fix the volatile battery aboard its new 787 Dreamliner. This comes even though investigators have not yet determined what caused the batteries to overheat on two planes last month. Boeing did not propose abandoning the lithium-ion batteries and is not working on a backup or longer-term fix for the problem that has grounded its entire fleet of 50 Dreamliners for nearly five weeks. The company and the U.S. Federal Aviation Administration said no firm result emerged from the meeting. Boeing and several airlines who fly the Dreamliner are losing millions a day while the planes are sitting on the ground. The proposed fix includes adding ceramic insulation between the cells of the battery to help keep cells cool and prevent a "thermal runaway" in which one cell overheats and triggers overheating in adjacent cells. It also includes building a stronger, larger stainless steel box with a venting tube to contain a fire and expel fumes outside the aircraft should a battery catch fire again. In addition, the plan proposed wiring changes, self-torquing screws that will not come loose and battery alterations to prevent moisture and vibration problems. Boeing machinists already are building the new containment boxes for the battery, a sign the company is confident that the FAA will eventually approve continued used of lithium batteries and the contain-and-vent strategy for dealing with fires.

[Ankf00]

the containment bit is funny since the compartment is already a fire-proof container for the battery

[Gnam]

...larger stainless steel box with a venting tube to contain a fire and expel fumes outside the aircraft should a battery catch fire again.

Generally speaking, flames shooting out the side of an aircraft used to be considered a bad thing. What is going on? :laugh:

[cameraman]

the containment bit is funny since the compartment is already a fire-proof container for the battery

Well if it managed to fill the cabin with smoke then the original system wasn't all that contained...

[TravelGal]

Generally speaking, flames shooting out the side of an aircraft used to be considered a bad thing. What is going on? :laugh:

:laugh::laugh::laugh: Just saw this. Today's briefing. No news is no news.

NTSB Gives Their Interim Report Of JAL 787 Battery Fire
The National Transportation Safety Board has given their latest report of the Dreamliner battery fires. From the report "The fire and smoke from the event were so intense that firefighters couldn't see even a few inches in front of themselves when they entered the electronics bay containing the burning battery, the report said. A fire captain on the scene told investigators that the battery was "hissing loudly and liquid was flowing down the sides of the battery case" before it "exploded." The report gave no findings as to the cause of the battery fires. NTSB will be holding both a forum and a hearing in April to provide additional information to advance the investigation. The forum, which will be held in mid-April, will explore lithium-ion battery technology and transportation safety. The investigative hearing, to be held later in April, will focus on the design and certification of the 787 battery system. Boeing self certified the batteries and their installation and that is becomming an issue as the validity of the data used are under intense scrutiny. It would appear that the Dreamliners will be grounded for some time to come.

[dando]

:laugh::laugh::laugh: Just saw this. Today's briefing. No news is no news.

NTSB Gives Their Interim Report Of JAL 787 Battery Fire
The National Transportation Safety Board has given their latest report of the Dreamliner battery fires. From the report "The fire and smoke from the event were so intense that firefighters couldn't see even a few inches in front of themselves when they entered the electronics bay containing the burning battery, the report said. A fire captain on the scene told investigators that the battery was "hissing loudly and liquid was flowing down the sides of the battery case" before it "exploded." The report gave no findings as to the cause of the battery fires. NTSB will be holding both a forum and a hearing in April to provide additional information to advance the investigation. The forum, which will be held in mid-April, will explore lithium-ion battery technology and transportation safety. The investigative hearing, to be held later in April, will focus on the design and certification of the 787 battery system. Boeing self certified the batteries and their installation and that is becomming an issue as the validity of the data used are under intense scrutiny. It would appear that the Dreamliners will be grounded for some time to come.

Need more Elmo. ;)

-Kevin

[TravelGal]

Boeing Testing Batteries With Higher Standards Than Before

Reuters has learned the Boeing Co is testing the Dreamliner's volatile battery system to a rigorous standard that the company itself helped develop, but never used on the jet. Boeing's decision has thrust an arcane standard known as RTCA to the center of the debate over whether Boeing and FAA were rigorous enough when they originally set standards for the 787 battery system in October 2007. The debate could have broad implications for the future use of lithium-ion batteries on aircraft. A committee co-chaired by Boeing published safety guidelines in March 2008 for using lithium-ion batteries on aircraft to minimize the risk of fire. But because they arrived five months after the FAA had approved a set of special conditions for the fire safety of the Dreamliner battery system, Boeing did not have to meet the more stringent guidelines. The FAA never required it, and Boeing did not choose to use them. Last week, Boeing decided to shift to the tougher RTCA standard for a revamped 787 battery system. Some battery industry experts voiced surprise that Boeing did not apply the RTCA standard when it was published in 2008.

John Goglia, a former board member of the National Transportation Safety Board said he sees the use of the RTCA standard "as an admission that they didn't do a good job in the beginning." The NTSB last month questioned the assumptions Boeing and the FAA made when certifying the battery system in 2007. The safety agency plans to hold a hearing on the issue next month and is expected to recommend changes to FAA procedures after completing its investigation into the battery failures.

The RTCA, formed in 1935 as the Radio Technical Commission for Aeronautics, is a private, not-for-profit industry group whose policy recommendations are often used by the FAA. Its battery committee, whose members included employees from Boeing's battery maker GS Yuasa, the battery system maker Thales SA of France and the FAA, drafted a 68-page document to set "minimum operational performance standards" for rechargeable lithium-ion batteries used as power sources on planes. The document included clearer and more specific tests than the FAA set, along with tougher standards.

[Elmo T]

A committee co-chaired by Boeing published safety guidelines in March 2008 for using lithium-ion batteries on aircraft to minimize the risk of fire. But because they arrived five months after the FAA had approved a set of special conditions for the fire safety of the Dreamliner battery system, Boeing did not have to meet the more stringent guidelines. The FAA never required it, and Boeing did not choose to use them. Last week, Boeing decided to shift to the tougher RTCA standard for a revamped 787 battery system. Some battery industry experts voiced surprise that Boeing did not apply the RTCA standard when it was published in 2008.


:shakehead

http://i46.tinypic.com/209g0nm.jpg

[Gnam]

A Boeing 787 with a redesigned battery system made a 2-hour test flight on Monday, and the company said the event "went according to plan."

http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Boeing-787-makes-test-flight-to-check-battery-4382475.php

merrily merrily merrily, Life is but a dream. :p

I wonder how many hours of testing the FAA is going to require before signing off.

[Gnam]

787 cleared to fly.


The Federal Aviation Administration said Friday it would send airlines instructions and publish a notice next week lifting the 3-month-old grounding order that day. Airlines will be able to begin flying the planes again as soon as the new systems are installed and they have approval from safety regulators in their own countries. Dreamliner flights could resume within a week, the agency told members of Congress.

http://www.sfgate.com/news/crime/article/FAA-approves-resumption-of-Boeing-787-flights-4447148.php

Why not just eject the battery in case of fire? Like they used to do on Star Trek with the warp core. :gomer:

[TravelGal]

787 cleared to fly.

Why not just eject the battery in case of fire? Like they used to do on Star Trek with the warp core. :gomer:

:D :thumbup:

[stroker]

787 cleared to fly.



Why not just eject the battery in case of fire? Like they used to do on Star Trek with the warp core. :gomer:

I don't think they have an Impulse drive as a backup...

[Gnam]

United resumes 787 flights Monday. Domestic service only for now. The 4 month outage cost them $11 million.

http://www.sfgate.com/news/texas/article/United-to-restart-787-flights-on-Monday-4529938.php

[Insomniac]

United resumes 787 flights Monday. Domestic service only for now. The 4 month outage cost them $11 million.

http://www.sfgate.com/news/texas/article/United-to-restart-787-flights-on-Monday-4529938.php

They should be OK.

United Airlines landed in second place in both categories, with $705.5 million in baggage fees and $660.9 million reservation change/cancellation fees.
http://www.cnn.com/2013/05/15/travel/airline-fee-revenue-increases

[TravelGal]

They should be OK.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/05/15/travel/airline-fee-revenue-increases

$200 to change a ticket. C'mon guys. But it IS pretty effective in keeping you from calling and taking up their valuable staff time.

In other news:
ANA Reports Electrical Panel Fault On 787 Test Flight
All Nippon Airways, the largest operator of the Boeing 787 Dreamliner, reported an electrical panel fault during a test flight last week as it prepares its fleet for a return to service in June. Engineers found discolouration on a connection on an electrical panel following a flight from Haneda Airport to Sapporo on May 4. The panel, which was not part of the jet's battery system, was changed and the plane returned to Tokyo. ANA blamed a loose nut for the cause of the problem, which it said did not compromise the safety of the aircraft. United resumes its Dreamliner service today.

[Insomniac]

$200 to change a ticket. C'mon guys. But it IS pretty effective in keeping you from calling and taking up their heavily reduced staff's time.

Fixed it for you.

[Gnam]

Ze Airbus' A350 had its maiden flight today.


More than half of the twin-engine jet consists of lightweight carbon-fiber designed to save on jet fuel, which makes up half the cost of long-haul flights.

The A350, which was delayed for two years as Airbus hashed out the new design, is a direct competitor with the 787 Dreamliner...

Airbus claims the A350 burns 25 percent less fuel than the Boeing due to its lighter weight, redesigned Rolls Royce engines and new aerodynamics.


http://www.sfgate.com/news/world/article/First-flight-of-Airbus-A350-reopens-wide-body-race-4600145.php#photo-4784737

[TravelGal]

Ze Airbus' A350 had its maiden flight today.

Turning into a tortoise and hare story. ANA had 3 problems this week alone with the 787. Not battery related to they aren't investigating. :irked: Excuse me but if a plane has to turn around and come back to the airport, I think someone should investigate.

[mapguy]

Ze Airbus' A350 had its maiden flight today.

Pug nosed.

[Andrew Longman]

Pug nosed.

And tiny windows.

I am reading Joe Sutter's account of leading the design and development of the 747. I highly recommend it. It is also excerpted in the current issue of Air & Space. Seems we forgot how to develop a plane.

http://www.amazon.com/747-Creating-Worlds-Adventures-Aviation/dp/0060882425

[dando]

The woes continue for the Edsel of the skies.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/06/23/travel/dreamliner-diverted/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

:saywhat:

-Kevin

[RaceGrrl]

This thread reminds me of how much I hate to fly and why. :irked::eek:

[dando]

This thread reminds me of how much I hate to fly and why. :irked::eek:

Missy, that's why I only fly SWA whenever possible. Of course, they just had a computer glitch and canceled a bunch of flights over the weekend. :\ They don't charge for bags, treat you like a human, and the employees are part owners of the airline, so they have skin in the game to make it work the right way.

-Kevin

[nrc]

I'm much more concerned about issues that don't produce warning lights.

[TravelGal]

Today's ARTA E-News
Dreamliners still being cancelled more often than other planes

United Airlines, the only U.S. operator of Boeing Co.'s 787 Dreamliner, is canceling flights by those planes almost four times as often as on the rest of its fleet, signaling that the new jets remain prone to breakdowns. The carrier's six Dreamliners had trips scrubbed 3.8 percent of the time from May 20 through June 26, according to Houston-based data tracker FlightAware.com, which reviewed the flights at the request of Bloomberg News. The rate excluding the 787s was 1 percent in the same period. The data show the extent of disruptions at United since the 787s returned to service after a three-month global grounding to fix overheating batteries. While United isn't discussing details of its cancellations, ANA Holdings Inc. and Japan Airlines Co. scrapped flights last month for reasons that included a computer failure, balky engine and trouble with an anti-icing system; Polish Air cancelled a Dreamliner flight last week. "When you go buy a new car, sometimes you're back at the dealer a week later for a minor thing," said George Hamlin, a former executive at planemaker Airbus SAS who now runs Hamlin Transportation Consulting in Fairfax, Virginia. "But if you have to keep going back week after week, it's a problem."

[Napoleon]

Boeing Dreamliner Catches Fire at Britain's Heathrow Airport

http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2013/07/12/world/europe/12reuters-britain-airport-heathrow.html?hp