HDTV -

[Wheel-Nut]

Before I start, yes, I read through this thread . . . . http://www.offcamber.net/forums/showthread.php?t=13222&highlight=plasma

I was thrown into the HDTV ownership role this weekend. My wife bought one of these package furniture deals that included a High Def TV - Hitachi Plasma 50" Model P50S601

I just picked up the HD DVR box - Scientific Atlantic Explorer 8000 -

Question - I thought in order to get true HD you had to be connected through an HDMI cable. HELP . . .

[chop456]

HDMI is better and easier, but you can use component, too. Does the box have a DVI out but not HDMI? If so, you can get a DVI to HDMI cable. Unless you're running BluRay or are a serious AV type, I wouldn't sweat it.

If your cable company (assuming that's where you got the box) sucks, it's possible that they're holding out on you and actually have some HDMI out boxes. That's what they do here.

[Sean O'Gorman]

I had to switch my Motorola box from HDMI to component because of some software glitches-it looks slightly better in component. But that may be an AT&T issue.

[Sean Malone]

Like Chop said, you can use HDMI or component cables for HD.

You mention 'true HD' which I assume you are referring to Sony's marketing label of '1080p'. High Def is considered 720p and above. Keep in mind that 1080i carries the exact same data that 1080p does. It's how it is displayed (interlaced or progressive) that is the difference and few can tell the difference anyway.
Most HD movies available via cable are streamed at 720.

[Gnam]

My wife bought one of these package furniture deals that included a High Def TV - Hitachi Plasma 50" Model P50S601
Did she win the Showcase Showdown on the Price I$ Right? ;)

[Sean O'Gorman]

Like Chop said, you can use HDMI or component cables for HD.

You mention 'true HD' which I assume you are referring to Sony's marketing label of '1080p'. High Def is considered 720p and above. Keep in mind that 1080i carries the exact same data that 1080p does. It's how it is displayed (interlaced or progressive) that is the difference and few can tell the difference anyway.
Most HD movies available via cable are streamed at 720.

What is the difference between i and p anyway? I broke the plastic cover for the component and optical outs on my Xbox 360 so I could run optical to the receiver and HDMI to the TV, and playing Forza 2, I don't see an improvement. If anything, it may be the opposite. There are white lines on the edges of the cars, and the reflections of trees and whatnot on the cars move really slow.

[eiregosod]

I'm ready for the hood.

[JoeBob]

Did you set your XBox to output at 1080p? If you don't tell the XBox To use 1080p, it won't. (And not every game supports 1080p. You have to look at the back of the box)

Someone else can explain the difference between interlaced and progressive scan. But, the bottom line is that on huge screens or very close up, you can see a difference.

Here's a chart that shows how big your screen has to be, and how close you have to be to it to see a difference between the qualities:
http://www.engadgethd.com/2006/12/09/1080p-charted-viewing-distance-to-screen-size/

[Insomniac]

Keep in mind that 1080i carries the exact same data that 1080p does. It's how it is displayed (interlaced or progressive) that is the difference and few can tell the difference anyway.

That's not entirely true. the 1080i and 1080p could contain the same data and it could be restored back to what the original source was, but it's not true they contain the exact same data. It depends on what the source was for those respective feeds. 1080p is capable of carrying twice the data of 1080i.

[Insomniac]

What is the difference between i and p anyway? I broke the plastic cover for the component and optical outs on my Xbox 360 so I could run optical to the receiver and HDMI to the TV, and playing Forza 2, I don't see an improvement. If anything, it may be the opposite. There are white lines on the edges of the cars, and the reflections of trees and whatnot on the cars move really slow.

I = Interlaced. Which means that half the screen (odd lines) are drawn and then the other half of the screen (even lines) are drawn on alternating frames. So traditionally, the odd lines are redrawn every 1/30 of a second and the even lines are redrawn every 1/30 of a second in an alternating pattern.

P = Progressive. Which means every line is drawn every time. So traditionally, (there are other frame rates) the screen is redrawn every 1/60 of a second.

What resolution is your TV? You may be outputting a higher resolution than you were before and that is taxing the system more.

[dando]

Here's an example of the difference:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/db/Interlacingani2.gif

And an explanation:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_scan#Advantages_of_progressive_scan

In a nutshell every line vs. every other line:


With progressive scan, an image is captured, transmitted and displayed in a path similar to text on a page: line by line, from top to bottom.

The interlaced scan pattern in a CRT (cathode ray tube) display completes such a scan too, but only for every second line. This is carried out from the top left corner to the bottom right corner of a CRT display. This process is repeated again, only this time starting at the second row, in order to fill in those particular gaps left behind while performing the first progressive scan on alternate rows only.


-Kevin

[dando]

Like Chop said, you can use HDMI or component cables for HD.

And DVI, but that's less common unless yer using a front projector or HDPC.

-Kevin

[Sean Malone]

What is the difference between i and p anyway? I broke the plastic cover for the component and optical outs on my Xbox 360 so I could run optical to the receiver and HDMI to the TV, and playing Forza 2, I don't see an improvement. If anything, it may be the opposite. There are white lines on the edges of the cars, and the reflections of trees and whatnot on the cars move really slow.

It also depends on your TV. My Sony doesn't accept 1080p via component, only HDMI. It upsamples 1080i. On my 360 I have to set it to output to 1080i. If I set it output to 1080p I get a black screen. I would have to buy a newer 360 Elite with HDMI output in order to get 1080p, but since my TV is 1080p anyway...it's moot.

[Wheel-Nut]

If your cable company (assuming that's where you got the box) sucks, it's possible that they're holding out on you and actually have some HDMI out boxes. That's what they do here.

Cable company and suck are synonomous right? This box doesn't have a DVI out.

Edit: This box does have a DVI out.

[Sean Malone]

That's not entirely true. the 1080i and 1080p could contain the same data and it could be restored back to what the original source was, but it's not true they contain the exact same data. It depends on what the source was for those respective feeds. 1080p is capable of carrying twice the data of 1080i.

I was simplifying for the sake of the discussion and should have just said 1920×1080 is 1920×1080 whether it's interlaced or progressive. Of course there is more to it such as herz...

[Sean Malone]

Cable company and suck are synonomous right? This box doesn't have a DVI out.

Call them. Are you sure they gave you an HD box with DVR? Their HD boxes with DVR will more than likely have HDMI.

[Wheel-Nut]

Did she win the Showcase Showdown on the Price I$ Right? ;)


I wish. Rooms To Go moved into the market and one of the existing furniture stores is offering a similar type of deal.

[Wheel-Nut]

Call them. Are you sure they gave you an HD box with DVR? Their HD boxes with DVR will more than likely have HDMI.

I'm 99% sure it's HD DVR.

This is the model - http://www.scientificatlanta.com/products/consumers/new_explorer8000HD.htm

[Sean O'Gorman]

It also depends on your TV. My Sony doesn't accept 1080p via component, only HDMI. It upsamples 1080i. On my 360 I have to set it to output to 1080i. If I set it output to 1080p I get a black screen. I would have to buy a newer 360 Elite with HDMI output in order to get 1080p, but since my TV is 1080p anyway...it's moot.


Your 360 has no HDMI output at all?

[Sean O'Gorman]

Did you set your XBox to output at 1080p? If you don't tell the XBox To use 1080p, it won't. (And not every game supports 1080p. You have to look at the back of the box)

The 360 is set to 1080p.

I wonder if it is just the game. I read a blog by the game studio, they said images are sharper via HDMI, but the colors are better on component. They also said that a 360 can do 1080p via component? :confused:

[Elmo T]

I had to switch my Motorola box from HDMI to component because of some software glitches-it looks slightly better in component. But that may be an AT&T issue.


I think mine looks better on the HDMI, but several of the sales folks and the Verizon installer said you should always try both connections. For a variety of reasons over my head, the various combinations of box, TV, and providers means that cable changes (audio and video) will make big differences. Who knew... :saywhat:

[Insomniac]

I was simplifying for the sake of the discussion and should have just said 1920×1080 is 1920×1080 whether it's interlaced or progressive. Of course there is more to it such as herz...

I was leaving out Hz though. Also, your other post about your TV being 1080p implies that it doesn't matter if the 360 outputs at 1080p. 1080p from the Xbox is better than 1080i from the Xbox to your TV converting it to 1080p. There is data that is just not there and your TV's scaler is filling it in.

[Insomniac]

Your 360 has no HDMI output at all?

Microsoft recently started to include HDMI on non-elite models. Early adopters can only choose between component and VGA for HD video.

[Insomniac]

The 360 is set to 1080p.

I wonder if it is just the game. I read a blog by the game studio, they said images are sharper via HDMI, but the colors are better on component. They also said that a 360 can do 1080p via component? :confused:

What model TV do you have? It may be your TV's scaler.

[Sean O'Gorman]

Microsoft recently started to include HDMI on non-elite models. Early adopters can only choose between component and VGA for HD video.

Ah. I didn't buy a 360 until February. Its funny how they have it so you can't use HDMI and optical without buying the HDMI adapter, unless you do this:

http://www.chadledford.com/?p=50

[Sean O'Gorman]

What model TV do you have? It may be your TV's scaler.

Sony KDF46E3000.

[Insomniac]

Sony KDF46E3000.

Looking at the manual (http://www.docs.sony.com/release/KDF46E3000S.pdf), have you tried Game Mode? It isn't fully clear, but it seems that at a minimum it disables the DRC stuff and I'd guess any other picture processing. Other than that, it supports 1080p over HDMI (1080i max over component).

If nothing helps, you can try 720p output and see if that makes the game run more smoothly. If it does, then it may be more the game than the TV or the choice of connection. You can also do a comparison of 720p with both types of cables.

Unfortunately, there are just too many options for how to connect HD sources to TVs.

You have:

720p:
HDMI and Component

1080i:
HDMI and Component

1080p
HDMI

And you can probably play with the Game Mode setting on all these at least to add more processing. And component probably overs cans away a little bit of the game compared to HDMI.

[Sean O'Gorman]

Actually, thats a good point. I had it on game mode when it was hooked up through component, but I never did that when I switched to HDMI. Also, my STB would apparently be on game mode right now too.

I'll have to check that when I get home.

[Sean Malone]

I was leaving out Hz though. Also, your other post about your TV being 1080p implies that it doesn't matter if the 360 outputs at 1080p. 1080p from the Xbox is better than 1080i from the Xbox to your TV converting it to 1080p. There is data that is just not there and your TV's scaler is filling it in.

True, but can your eye detect the delta? No.

[Sean Malone]

The 360 is set to 1080p.

They also said that a 360 can do 1080p via component? :confused:

That is true. That was a patch last year, but like in my example, it depends on whether your TV can accept 1080p via component. Many Sony's can't.

[Sean O'Gorman]

Mine can't. Stupid Sorny. :(

[Insomniac]

True, but can your eye detect the delta? No.

I bet I could in high FPS video games. I doubt the scaler in the TV does much more than repeat data. As the animation above shows, you're likely to have edge jaggedness as a result. I'm also a former PC gamer. High FPS has always been important as well as anti-aliasing.

[Insomniac]

Mine can't. Stupid Sorny. :(

My Samsung Plasma doesn't either.

[eiregosod]

how do I know if my lookude tuv is ready for the hood?

[Sean Malone]

So my 360 bricked last week. I did the blanket trick in order to get it back up so that I could unload all of our game saves and profiles then took it back to Best Buy for an exchange (I bought the 2 year plan with the first one). Best Buy let me upgrade to the Elite for another $80.

Plugged up the Elite 360 via HDMI into my SXRD and navigate to the display setting to find...1080p grayed out. WTF? I said.

I hit the AVForums to find out that most of the native display 1080p TV's that debuted in '06 can not accept 1080p period, even via HDMI. But, that since it is a native 1080p display, it is displaying the 1080i input progressively anyhoo.

[rosawendel]

i'll try to ask this question here, because i don't think we need another thread for yet another hdtv question, but...

i have cable via time warner, and it's hooked up to a 37" 720p tele with the component cables. works fine enough, but i think we are definately having an issue with the abc HD feed (it almost looks more like film than video - i wonder if it's a refresh rate thing), and i wonder if it's an issue with the feed (it only seems to be an issue with the abc feed) or the connection at my end (would switching to hdmi cables help?).

any advice? thanks.

[WickerBill]

My best guess is 24p vs. 30p/60i -- this article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/24p) is a mile or two over my head, but my TV has a 24p mode for watching DVDs and it seems to make them look better to me... but it makes regular TV content look kinda dark and grainy.

[Insomniac]

So my 360 bricked last week. I did the blanket trick in order to get it back up so that I could unload all of our game saves and profiles then took it back to Best Buy for an exchange (I bought the 2 year plan with the first one). Best Buy let me upgrade to the Elite for another $80.

Plugged up the Elite 360 via HDMI into my SXRD and navigate to the display setting to find...1080p grayed out. WTF? I said.

I hit the AVForums to find out that most of the native display 1080p TV's that debuted in '06 can not accept 1080p period, even via HDMI. But, that since it is a native 1080p display, it is displaying the 1080i input progressively anyhoo.

I think we discussed this earlier in the thread, but there's a difference between 1080i being deinterlaced and shown as 1080p and straight 1080p. It is dumb that so many 1080p TVs don't accept 1080p signals. Never understood that. My only conclusion was it was an intentional limitation to give the top end some value.

[Insomniac]

i'll try to ask this question here, because i don't think we need another thread for yet another hdtv question, but...

i have cable via time warner, and it's hooked up to a 37" 720p tele with the component cables. works fine enough, but i think we are definately having an issue with the abc HD feed (it almost looks more like film than video - i wonder if it's a refresh rate thing), and i wonder if it's an issue with the feed (it only seems to be an issue with the abc feed) or the connection at my end (would switching to hdmi cables help?).

any advice? thanks.

How does the FOX HD feed look? Also, is it everything? I'll get crap for this, but I've seen that film like thing when my mom watches her soaps, but never in prime time or sports.