XP or Vista ?

[oddlycalm]

OK IT folk, I could use some advice. Gonna be building my next box in a month or two but since XP is slated to evaporate off the shelves in June I've considered getting XP Pro (cheap academic version of course :D). Any comments on why I should go with either Vista or XP? I plan to continue running MS Office Pro 2003.

I've considered the OSX w/bootcamp approach, but it means I'd be flying solo on support if the wheels came off. I need to run an MS SQL database client that does remote synchronizations through a VPN tunnel and some other apps that are MS specific. One is SageCRM which a browser based database app that integrates with Outlook and acts as a front end to our accounting software for quotes and order entry. It's IE only so not functional with Safari. I use Citrix to access the company server including the accounting system which are all windoze based.

On the hardware side there only thing exotic are a Firewire 800 device (and card) which will be replaced with an eSATA (external drive tower). Epson seems to have drivers for all of the above for my 2001 vintage 1680 pro scanner.

Any comments?

oc

[Sean Malone]

My daughter and wife's notebooks are Vista, I'm still on XP Pro and prefer it over Vista. But if I had Vista on mine I'd probably like it more. XP is like an old, comfy shoe, sure it stinks, but it's my first choice.

[dando]

Vista is still buggy from what I've read, but SP1 is due to be released shortly, as is SP3 for XP. I thought XP was being extended yet again? It speaks volumes when M$FT allowed PC makers to keep distributing XP after Vista's release. XP Pro would be my choice since Leopard and Ubuntu aren't an option.
-Kevin

[extramundane]

OK IT folk, I could use some advice. Gonna be building my next box in a month or two but since XP is slated to evaporate off the shelves in June I've considered getting XP Pro (cheap academic version of course :D). Any comments on why I should go with either Vista or XP? I plan to continue running MS Office Pro 2003.

They may (or may not) yank XP off the shelves, but they've extended support for it to 2014. Having evaluated Vista pretty thoroughly over the last year, I can't see any reason to use it unless you've got a very compelling reason (i.e. your new Linksys Media Extender requires Vista :irked: ). I refuse to roll it out at work.


Vista is still buggy from what I've read, but SP1 is due to be released shortly

It's already out for some segments, and I can't see that it made any tangible difference. The roughly 75 minutes it took to install didn't exactly please me either.

[Insomniac]

I don't have Vista, so please keep that in mind when weighing my thoughts.

XP is pretty much done. If you are starting over and don't plan to do that again for a while, it seems Vista would be better. Stable/not stable really depends on what you install on it. There are things to get used to, but at some point, Vista will be the prevailing OS. Personally, I'd go with Vista. Also, I don't know about on Vista, but Office 2007 runs better on my XP Pro machine than 2003 did. Obviously the interface has changed dramatically and there are other quirks, but it runs smoother. I also like it better than 2003.

[Insomniac]

Vista is still buggy from what I've read, but SP1 is due to be released shortly, as is SP3 for XP. I thought XP was being extended yet again? It speaks volumes when M$FT allowed PC makers to keep distributing XP after Vista's release. XP Pro would be my choice since Leopard and Ubuntu aren't an option.
-Kevin

SP3 is out. XP Home will be allowed to be sold on new ultra low-cost PCs/laptops, but they say EOL is 6/30. Until XP, MS had 2 operating systems at all times. This is the first time they could really try to stop one and force the new one. However, corporate customers (and others) were not happy. They relented, not because Vista was crap though.

EDIT: Just saw MS pulled XP SP3. Ooops... Technically it wasn't officially available but a link to it (on the MS site) was distributed today.

[extramundane]

but at some point, Vista will be the prevailing OS.

I dunno. That they extended XP support to 2014 (when it was originally set to die in '09) suggests just the opposite to me. There are already pretty serious rumblings from within MS that Vista's pretty much toast. There are a ton of people like me who can't make a good business case to make the switch (I've got 100+ PCs that run XP just fine that become instant paperweights if we go to Vista, my faculty barely handled the 2K -> XP migration, and the client piece of our primary ERP-ish system takes a dump if it's even in the same room as Vista), and MS knows it.

Also, I don't know about on Vista, but Office 2007 runs better on my XP Pro machine than 2003 did. Obviously the interface has changed dramatically and there are other quirks, but it runs smoother. I also like it better than 2003.

Agreed on both accounts.

[cameraman]

We had a couple Vista machines that we just changed to XP Pro. They were buggy and many of the Vista drivers for our older equipment either do not exist or do not work well.

[racermike]

Vista is still buggy from what I've read, but SP1 is due to be released shortly, as is SP3 for XP. I thought XP was being extended yet again? It speaks volumes when M$FT allowed PC makers to keep distributing XP after Vista's release. XP Pro would be my choice since Leopard and Ubuntu aren't an option.
-Kevin


I prefer XP Pro myself, and its too bad that Microsoft is dumping the most stable platorm they have ever had.

As for SP1 for Vista, its already released

http://www.microsoft.com/windows/products/windowsvista/sp1.mspx

[Kiwifan]

I have XP on the Desktop and Vista on a Lappy. Although Vista has some good points it still annoys the hell out of me at times. On that basis, I prefer XP. :)

Rusty.

[Andrew Longman]

I'm running vista and Office 07 on the laptop I'm bought late last year. Like Insomniac, I assumed this was how the world was going to look and so I took the plung.

The different look and features of 07 has not been as difficult as some have said, but the bugginess has been. Applications will just decide they need to quit. I guess they just get too confused and need a time out. :gomer:

The most disturbing thing for me has been Powerpoint. In recent weeks I have had text simply disappear from some slides when I stepped away from the computer for a few minutes. Not all the text and not on all slides, but the main body on about half the slide. Mind you the file and even the computer was not touched.

Worse, I spent four hours with a colleague last week making edits to a presentation. I saved the file at least a dozen times during that period. When I got home, there was no trace of the file. Nada.

Even my super cyberslueth state police detective friend who does computer forensic work could not find a trace of the file.

I've also had a Word file that would not Spellcheck. I mean you could put anything in the document, expletives and worse, and it would not highlight a single error. But just that file.

I suggest sticking with 03 and XP

[KLang]

We bought new desktops for home last summer and went with Vista. So far the only issue I've had is a couple old applications that work with serial devices that won't work anymore with a USB converter. One is the software to update my race scanners. Well that's no longer an issue. :irked:

I think Vista is the future. Unless you have a specific application or device that won't work I'd go with Vista.

[Sean Malone]

We bought new desktops for home last summer and went with Vista. So far the only issue I've had is a couple old applications that work with serial devices that won't work anymore with a USB converter. One is the software to update my race scanners. Well that's no longer an issue. :irked:

I think Vista is the future. Unless you have a specific application or device that won't work I'd go with Vista.

Vista = WinME 2.0.

[FTG]

Everything, absolutely everything, runs slower on Vista.

[Cam]

FWIW, I have O2K pro running on vista without a problem. So I would say your backward compatibility issues with office packages are moot.

[KLang]

Vista = WinME 2.0.

I endured ME for a couple years. :cry: Vista is nothing like that in my experience.

[WickerBill]

My vote is XP. Vista upgrade will be available at any electronics store, when it becomes necessary, for $99. In the meantime, use what works... which is XP.

[Cam]

My vote is XP. Vista upgrade will be available at any electronics store, when it becomes necessary, for $99. In the meantime, use what works... which is Linux

Fixxered.

Sorry WB.. Had to do it... :D

[Sean Malone]

I endured ME for a couple years. :cry: Vista is nothing like that in my experience.

My accusation is more in reference to M$'s road map with Vista. With XP being extended and the next OS already in progress Vista could be a thing of the past before XP is in the ground.

[Insomniac]

I dunno. That they extended XP support to 2014 (when it was originally set to die in '09) suggests just the opposite to me. There are already pretty serious rumblings from within MS that Vista's pretty much toast. There are a ton of people like me who can't make a good business case to make the switch (I've got 100+ PCs that run XP just fine that become instant paperweights if we go to Vista, my faculty barely handled the 2K -> XP migration, and the client piece of our primary ERP-ish system takes a dump if it's even in the same room as Vista), and MS knows it.

Personally, I don't read too much into that. They supported Windows 98 until mid-2006. They also stopped support of XP SP1 around that time too. I think MS wants to move to a faster pace for new OSs (Less than every 5 years).

I agree there probably aren't many reasons to upgrade to Vista, but if you're building or buying a new PC, you should have the proper driver support and be able to run a stable system. It's the backwards compatibility that gets you, especially when you have major platform changes.

[Insomniac]

I'm running vista and Office 07 on the laptop I'm bought late last year. Like Insomniac, I assumed this was how the world was going to look and so I took the plung.

The different look and features of 07 has not been as difficult as some have said, but the bugginess has been. Applications will just decide they need to quit. I guess they just get too confused and need a time out. :gomer:

The most disturbing thing for me has been Powerpoint. In recent weeks I have had text simply disappear from some slides when I stepped away from the computer for a few minutes. Not all the text and not on all slides, but the main body on about half the slide. Mind you the file and even the computer was not touched.

Worse, I spent four hours with a colleague last week making edits to a presentation. I saved the file at least a dozen times during that period. When I got home, there was no trace of the file. Nada.

Even my super cyberslueth state police detective friend who does computer forensic work could not find a trace of the file.

I've also had a Word file that would not Spellcheck. I mean you could put anything in the document, expletives and worse, and it would not highlight a single error. But just that file.

I suggest sticking with 03 and XP

Maybe your machine likes messing with you. ;)

[Insomniac]

My accusation is more in reference to M$'s road map with Vista. With XP being extended and the next OS already in progress Vista could be a thing of the past before XP is in the ground.

I'm not sure what to make of Windows 7.

Is this like:

Windows 95 -> Windows 98 -> Windows 98 SE -> (I cringe to put this here) Windows ME
Windows NT 4.0 -> Windows 2000 -> Windows XP
Windows Vista -> Windows 7

Or will Windows 7 be a new path? What I mean is, will the transition to 7 be painless or are we looking at needing completely new drivers among other things. If that's the case, you will have Vista picking up steam and the same transition nightmare as Vista. I'm thinking the major changes were made with Vista personally.

oddlycalm, since you are building it, I assume you have experience messing/tinkering with PCs. My brother has similar knowledge. He built a Vista 64 HTPC a couple months back. He says he's pretty happy with it and it is stable. He also says that the oddest thing is MS's changes to the UI were good but weird because now things are where you would look for them if you never used a Windows PC before. But for those who have, it's annoying because the thing syou've done/known for a long time are changed.

[oddlycalm]

Thanks for the comments. I find it ironic that this forum offers better, and certainly more mature, computer advice than any computer forum I've discovered over the years. :thumbup:

Since my system is mission critical I've decided to start with XP Pro. Vista will still be there, hopefully in a mature form, when the next system change rolls around. If I was looking at Vista SP2 I might have decided differently. I was able to find an academic version of XP Pro for cheap. I've got a version of Office 2003 still in the shrink wrap that I'm using because I have it and there's no compelling reason not to.

oc

[Andrew Longman]

Maybe your machine likes messing with you. ;)

In my case, most of the time root cause goes to operator error. :gomer:

With these latest SNAFUs, I wasn't even in the room when the problem happened.

One more and I rip it all out and put 03 and XP on it.

[dando]

In my case, most of the time root cause goes to operator error. :gomer:

Ummm, the official support term for this condition is PEBKAC. :gomer: In your case, NJtard would also be used. ;)

-Kevin

[oddlycalm]

Yo, tech support...?

[dando]

Yo, tech support...?

Reminds of one time back in customer service for CompuServe (this one time in band camp) when a customer was asked to give the rep their cc #....moments passed and the rep finally asked, "Can I have the number, please?" and the customer replied, "I already gave it to you. I put it in the slot on the computer." :gomer:

-Kevin

[Sean Malone]

Reminds of one time back in customer service for CompuServe (this one time in band camp) when a customer was asked to give the rep their cc #....moments passed and the rep finally asked, "Can I have the number, please?" and the customer replied, "I already gave it to you. I put it in the slot on the computer." :gomer:

-Kevin

That reminds me of the manual for my latest marine radio. In teaching of the proper usage it gave the example; "the new owner of the sinking sailboat when asked his position over his marine radio by the coast guard replied 'I'm the senior vice president of marketing for a national insurance company!!'. :D

[TravelGal]

Don't blame me, you guys started it.

Sounds like and ID ten T error to me.


Got it?

I D 1 0 T

:gomer:

[Andrew Longman]

Ummm, the official support term for this condition is PEBKAC. :gomer: In your case, NJtard would also be used. ;)

-Kevin

Perhaps...

I am not always among the "better class of users" software engineers wish for.

[Ankf00]

anyway to get 64 bit vista w/o paying out the ass if 32 bit came pre-installed on the computer?

I want to run 64 bit Fluent

[ChampcarShark]

Thanks for the comments. I find it ironic that this forum offers better, and certainly more mature, computer advice than any computer forum I've discovered over the years. :thumbup:

oc

Maybe a new name for the forum.
Maybe a new computer forum with in OC.

I said it once I'll say it again, you guys rock. I do not think you get better customer service or advise anywhere in the Net.

[Insomniac]

anyway to get 64 bit vista w/o paying out the ass if 32 bit came pre-installed on the computer?

I want to run 64 bit Fluent

Some manufacturers will let you do an OS swap within a small time period after purchase. Otherwise, maybe your 32-bit key will work on a 64-bit version.

[Ankf00]

cool, thanks. :thumbup:

[ChampcarShark]

OK Guys, I have a new one for you.

When trying to access a particular website I get the following message:

"Post action aborted!
Post from foreign host detected"

This is the complete page: http://www.doleta.gov/tradeact/taa/taa_search.cfm

We are under a proxy and the IT department has not been able to find a solution.

I can access the site and the information from my house but not at work.
This only happened recently, like six months a go. I have been with the company for 6 years.

I tell my IT department to let me access the net without a proxy, but they say is against company policy.

Suggestions?

[cameraman]

Is this the search you are looking for?

http://www.doleta.gov/tradeact/taa/taa_search_form.cfm

[ChampcarShark]

Yes, but when doing a search for a company is when I get the message instead of the information.
I do a search by city and state and should get a list of the companies certified by the department of labor.

[ChampcarShark]

On the petition number field try 63198.

I get an error message. So i figure it has to do with the proxy settings.

You should get a page with a letter explaining the solution.

[dando]

OK Guys, I have a new one for you.

When trying to access a particular website I get the following message:

"Post action aborted!
Post from foreign host detected"

This is the complete page: http://www.doleta.gov/tradeact/taa/taa_search.cfm

We are under a proxy and the IT department has not been able to find a solution.

I can access the site and the information from my house but not at work.
This only happened recently, like six months a go. I have been with the company for 6 years.

I tell my IT department to let me access the net without a proxy, but they say is against company policy.

Suggestions?

I'm not an SA, but I play one on TeeVee. ;) Sounds like the proxy needs a port or two reconfigured to accept the traffic from the site. It's possible that the site could be trying to pass a cookie back to your machine, which is being intercepted by your network proxy. Try watching the traffic in your browser using a packet sniffer or Firebug (FF). I don't have Firebug in this machine in FF 3.0.

-Kevin

[cameraman]

Must be the case since it worked fine on my machine.

But the original link you provided:
http://www.doleta.gov/tradeact/taa/taa_search.cfm

does give me the post action aborted message.

Strange web site. The results page included a link to the decision that sends you off to the wrong case:confused::saywhat:

[ChampcarShark]

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

Thanks guys, will relay the info to my IT department.

I Think Kevin hit the right answer.

I do not mind getting the info at home is just that I think work should be done at work and surfing the net should be done anywhere.

[dando]

Strange web site. The results page included a link to the decision that sends you off to the wrong case:confused::saywhat:

Case # 62927. Kwality. Perhaps the Dept. of Labor should outsource their Web Dev to India. :saywhat:

-Kevin

[ChampcarShark]

Must be the case since it worked fine on my machine.

But the original link you provided:
http://www.doleta.gov/tradeact/taa/taa_search.cfm

does give me the post action aborted message.

Strange web site. The results page included a link to the decision that sends you off to the wrong case:confused::saywhat:

The page belongs to the Department of Labor, your taxes at work.

[nrc]

The taa_search.cfm page is a Cold Fusion script that expects input form data in "POST" format. It's not really intended to be linked directly. The "Post action aborted!" message appears to be their default message when the URL is requested with no POST data. Not very helpful actually.

If you're getting that same response when you fill out the form that cameraman pointed to then either your proxy is not passing your POST data or your proxy is doing something else that looks like whatever their "foreign host" message is actually looking for. Could your proxy IP be confused with an an IP from a foreign country?

To test whether outgoing POST requests are working through your proxy go to this page:
http://www.marchansen.com/tn110/
Go to CGI Input test case 'i', click the checkbox and click the button under it. You should get a response that includes:

CGI STDIN
line 1: button=on&form+i=Example+i

If you get:

CGI STDIN
[no data on STDIN]

..then your proxy isn't handling POST style form submissions correctly.

[dando]

The taa_search.cfm page is a Cold Fusion script that expects input form data in "POST" format. It's not really intended to be linked directly. The "Post action aborted!" message appears to be their default message when the URL is requested with no POST data. Not very helpful actually.

If you're getting that same response when you fill out the form that cameraman pointed to then either your proxy is not passing your POST data or your proxy is doing something else that looks like whatever their "foreign host" message is actually looking for. Could your proxy IP be confused with an an IP from a foreign country?

To test whether outgoing POST requests are working through your proxy go to this page:
http://www.marchansen.com/tn110/
Go to CGI Input test case 'i', click the checkbox and click the button under it. You should get a response that includes:

CGI STDIN
line 1: button=on&form+i=Example+i

If you get:

CGI STDIN
[no data on STDIN]

..then your proxy isn't handling POST style form submissions correctly.

Agreed. After I looked @ this and thought about it a bit more, it's definitely something being passed or not passed by the proxy. Again, dats why I'm not an SA and just play one on TeeVee. ;)

-Kevin

[ChampcarShark]

This is what I get.

CGI Arguments
Number of arguments: 0

CGI STDIN

line 1: button=on&form+i=Example+i

CGI Environment Variables
CONTENT_LENGTH 26
CONTENT_TYPE application/x-www-form-urlencoded
DOCUMENT_ROOT /htdocs/userdirs/mhansen
GATEWAY_INTERFACE CGI/1.1
HTTP_ACCEPT text/html,application/xhtml+xml,application/xml;q=0.9,*/*;q=0.8
HTTP_ACCEPT_CHARSET ISO-8859-1,utf-8;q=0.7,*;q=0.7
HTTP_ACCEPT_ENCODING gzip,deflate
HTTP_ACCEPT_LANGUAGE en-us,en;q=0.5
HTTP_CACHE_CONTROL max-age=0
HTTP_CONNECTION keep-alive
HTTP_HOST www.marchansen.com
HTTP_USER_AGENT Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.9) Gecko/2008052906 Firefox/3.0
HTTP_VIA 1.1 squid1.nyc.access.net:3128 (squid/2.5.STABLE10)
HTTP_X_FORWARDED_FOR 216.61.253.114
PATH /usr/local/bin:/usr/bin:/bin
QUERY_STRING
REMOTE_ADDR 216.61.253.114
REMOTE_PORT 62209
REQUEST_METHOD POST
REQUEST_URI /tn110/show.cgi
SCRIPT_FILENAME /htdocs/userdirs/mhansen/tn110/show.cgi
SCRIPT_NAME /tn110/show.cgi
SERVER_ADDR 166.84.62.124
SERVER_ADMIN mhansen@panix.com
SERVER_NAME www.marchansen.com
SERVER_PORT 80
SERVER_PROTOCOL HTTP/1.0
SERVER_SIGNATURE
SERVER_SOFTWARE Apache/2.2.9 (Unix) mod_ssl/2.2.9 OpenSSL/0.9.7d mod_jk/1.2.26 PHP/5.2.6 mod_perl/2.0.3 Perl/v5.8.8