View Full Version : I-4 turbos?
Has anyone noticed the price of gasoline lately? :)
Is it kinda obvious that the I-4 engine is about to become VERY popular here in America?
And did TG say something about turbos for the next engine?
I guess an I-4 turbo might be worth talking about?
(Ok technically its called an "L-4")
Here's a classic picture of a Drake Offy from the early 70's:
http://www.chrisbiordi.com/race/drake_offy_73.jpg
And here's the AAR GTP 'Yoda engine from the early 90's
http://www.allamericanracers.com/images/eagle_mk3_f411x326.jpg
nissan gtp
05-28-08, 03:57 PM
4 cyl turbo diesel :p
A fan with an idea that's at least ten years too late. 1.5 L4t (stock block and heads) was a favored idea a decade ago when the CART chieftans couldn't get their manufacturers to change the formula.
Why does it have to be a four cylinder? :\
The last time I visited Europe (years ago) where gas has already been north of $4/gal for years, 4 cylinder cars are very common. Now, people here in the US aren't going to start trading in their cars right away, but when they do, I think we may start to see a LOT of 4 cylinder cars in America in the coming years.
I go to Europe almost every year to visit my younger cousins in Germany and the turbo engines are getting smaller and smaller.
VW has a 1.4l turbo four that is very popular at the bottom of their range of cars. I also have flipped through some German car mags that discussed a forthcoming 1.2l turbo three cylinder for the bottom end cars and 600cc turbo two cylinder engines as diesels and gasoline burners for an upcoming microcar the size of a Smart car.
BTW, the Smart is one of the nastiest and most oddly engineered mini/micro cars I've ever driven -- and that includes things like the Subaru 360, Renault R4, Fiat 850 sedan, and the Ford Anglia 105E. The latter cars at least had the excuse of drawing on 1950s engineering for their oddness, but the original Mini put them to shame. The Smart doesn't have any excuse for a bad gearbox and linkage or its goofy engine placement.
oddlycalm
05-28-08, 09:03 PM
I've always like the I-4 and it has the appeal of tradition for those that care. A good I-4 was capable of 1000hp back in the day (F1, Cam Am, whatever), so there's no real technical challenge doing it today. Just decide how much power and dial the boost accordingly.
The car they have is a barge and it's pretty clear it has a rear weight bias issue. Reducing mass in the rear of the car would help both handling and styling. People that say the car has to weigh 1800lbs to run on an oval safely have no idea what they are talking about.
oc
miatanut
05-29-08, 12:42 AM
Why does it have to be a four cylinder? :\
Because the new generation of hot-rodders (gearheads of the first order), currently known as the "tuner" crowd, are almost entirely turbo I-4's. A large group ripe for the picking. NHRA is doing a decent job cultivating them, but they are really street racers and road racers, creating an opportunity for a road-racing series that wants to go after them.
chop456
05-29-08, 01:27 AM
Awesome. Let's talk about this a billion more times. :gomer:
Yea, I know :) But the difference this time is that gasoline really skyrocketed to the point where many Americans may actually make some changes in their car buying habits... and I4's may become a MUCH more common engine here.
formulaben
06-09-08, 08:56 PM
A fan with an idea that's at least ten years too late. 1.5 L4t (stock block and heads) was a favored idea a decade ago when the CART chieftans couldn't get their manufacturers to change the formula.
whadinit 1.8L?
So, what kind of power could the present Atlantic Mazda engine produce reliably if turbofied and couldn't a Swift/Cosworth(Mazda) be engineered quite cheaply to road race faster than an ICS machine? Seriously, Gerry Forsythe wants to know.;)
The Skippy Series (plural) then Star Mazda as feeders to Formula Atlantic then on to the turbo SUPER ATLANTICS as the final step on the road to Dubai!:thumbup:
SurfaceUnits
06-10-08, 11:28 AM
So, what kind of power could the present Atlantic Mazda engine produce reliably if turbofied and couldn't a Swift/Cosworth(Mazda) be engineered quite cheaply to road race faster than an ICS machine? Seriously, Gerry Forsythe wants to know.;)
here's mazda's current ALMS 2.0L engine from the same basic design as the Atlantics 2.3 engine
http://www.autoblog.com/2007/01/11/mazda-announces-alms-entry-rotorheads-weep/
Andrew Longman
06-10-08, 12:26 PM
So, what kind of power could the present Atlantic Mazda engine produce reliably if turbofied and couldn't a Swift/Cosworth(Mazda) be engineered quite cheaply to road race faster than an ICS machine? Seriously, Gerry Forsythe wants to know.;)
Well figure this.
P2 = 500 hp/1815 lbs -- .27
ICS = 650 hp/1530 lbs -- .42
Atlantics with a beefier P2 I4 = 500/1400 lbs -- .35
But that engine is designed to run 12 hours. Perhaps you could get another 100 hp if it only had to do 6 hours between rebuilds = .43
Hmmm
The AER designed and built 2.0t MZR-R is not kin to the Duratech derived Mazda MZR Atlantic 2.3 NA. If you look closely at the commonly released MZR-R and Duratech/MZR photos from Mazdaspeed and Cosworth respectively you can see that the intakes are on different sides of the engine and the heads and blocks look very different.
three-quarter rear view (flywheel end) of the AER MZR-R 2.0t:
http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2007/01/mzr-r_rear_hr_250.jpg
three-quarter front view (accessory drive end) of the Cosworth Duratech/MZR 2.0NA:
http://www.cosworthusa.com/store/pc/catalog/2.0l_313_normal.jpg
That said, with some work the current Mazda Atlantics 2.3l could reliably put out a P2 like 540HP with a turbo for a couple of race weekends if Cosworth worked on it.
Press Release:
All New Engine
MAZDASPEED engineers in the U.S. and Japan, in conjunction with U.K. based Advanced Engine Research Ltd (AER), will debut an all-new MZR-R prototype engine at the 2007 12 Hours of Sebring. The new engine, a clean sheet design, is a turbocharged 2.0 liter in-line four cylinder. The performance goals for the engine are 500hp and 400 lb-ft, with the durability to succeed in such grueling races as the 12 Hours of Sebring and the 10-hour Petit Le Mans. The engineering team is working to incorporate the production-based Mazda Direct Injection Spark Ignition (DISI) system into the race motor. The technical collaboration between Mazda and AER has been non-stop in preparation for the season- opener at Sebring.
here's mazda's current ALMS 2.0L engine from the same basic design as the Atlantics 2.3 engine
http://www.autoblog.com/2007/01/11/mazda-announces-alms-entry-rotorheads-weep/
cameraman
06-10-08, 02:23 PM
It would be a nice addition to the series to have a battle between Cosworth and AER versions of the MZR. An honest-to-God engine battle.
SurfaceUnits
06-10-08, 06:01 PM
Beginning in 2004, Ford dropped the old 4-cylinder Zetec engines in favor of Mazda's MZR design. Thus, 2005 and present Duratec 4-cylinder engines are Mazdas. This includes the 2.0 L Duratec 20 the 2.3 L Duratec 23 and the all new 2.5 L Duratec 25.
miatanut
06-10-08, 09:28 PM
The AER designed and built 2.0t MZR-R is not kin to the Duratech derived Mazda MZR Atlantic 2.3 NA. If you look closely at the commonly released MZR-R and Duratech/MZR photos from Mazdaspeed and Cosworth respectively you can see that the intakes are on different sides of the engine and the heads and blocks look very different.
That said, with some work the current Mazda Atlantics 2.3l could reliably put out a P2 like 540HP with a turbo for a couple of race weekends if Cosworth worked on it.
An Atlantic with 540 HP! :thumbup: Don't forget, late '60's, early '70's F1 cars had less than 550 HP. They needed more HP when they started putting drag-producing wings on the cars. Take out a little wing, and 540 HP can be a tail-happy beast!
SurfaceUnits
06-11-08, 02:06 PM
is http://www.formula-palmer-audi.com/brochure-intro.aspx the only open wheel series left with turbos?
stroker
06-11-08, 04:28 PM
An Atlantic with 540 HP! :thumbup: Don't forget, late '60's, early '70's F1 cars had less than 550 HP. They needed more HP when they started putting drag-producing wings on the cars. Take out a little wing, and 540 HP can be a tail-happy beast!
If it was good enough for Jackie Stewart, Emerson Fittipaldi, et al, it's good enough today. Give 'em the equivilant wing of about three shoebox lids and we're good to go.
If it was good enough for Jackie Stewart, Emerson Fittipaldi, et al, it's good enough today. Give 'em the equivilant wing of about three shoebox lids and we're good to go.
A Super Atlantics car would need to run on some pretty hard rubber, as well. In the 70s they were still running cross ply tires made of wood. ;)
BTW, the DFV didn't officially turn out 500 HP until the short stroke version introduced in the early 80s. In the mid/late 70s teams were looking for 460-480 HP from their Cosworths and there was quite a battle among the rebuilders Nicholson, Judd, and Hart to squeeze that kind of HP out of the DFV reliably.
miatanut
06-12-08, 12:50 AM
I have a lousy memory for numbers.
We saw a lot of great racing powered by engines between 400 & 500 HP!
stroker
06-12-08, 08:39 AM
A Super Atlantics car would need to run on some pretty hard rubber, as well. In the 70s they were still running cross ply tires made of wood. ;)
BTW, the DFV didn't officially turn out 500 HP until the short stroke version introduced in the early 80s. In the mid/late 70s teams were looking for 460-480 HP from their Cosworths and there was quite a battle among the rebuilders Nicholson, Judd, and Hart to squeeze that kind of HP out of the DFV reliably.
Okay, so let's just take the wings off the current car and run DOT tires. That oughta be about the same... :)
The new series could run Englebert -- the last non major company to win a GP with something essentially out of their line up of street rubber.
I bought a set of Engleberts once, just because. Turns out that in the end they where just a set of rebranded Dunlops made in the old plant. Ran OK on the Super 90 beater I was handed down, though.
Okay, so let's just take the wings off the current car and run DOT tires. That oughta be about the same... :)
Jag_Warrior
06-15-08, 09:11 PM
Let's not just restrict the fun to I-4's.
http://eaglejapanmotor.com/images/P/ST450.JPG
miatanut
06-16-08, 11:44 AM
They tend to be a bit tricky to get the exhaust out of while maintaining a low center of gravity, no? :)
stroker
06-16-08, 12:40 PM
They tend to be a bit tricky to get the exhaust out of while maintaining a low center of gravity, no? :)
Porsche seemed to do okay with their Can-Am cars in 1971/1972...
How about a V4t based on the head and block of Volkswagen's W8?
And I guess no I-4 discussion would be complete without the 1983 Brabham BMW BT50 (with a stock 1969 block) which supposedly made 1500hp in qualifying boost:
http://www.research-racing.de/bmwturbo.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8B3xCGUzqU
chop456
06-17-08, 07:05 AM
Let's not just restrict the fun to I-4's.
http://eaglejapanmotor.com/images/P/ST450.JPG
And now there's a diesel version, too. :D
miatanut
06-17-08, 12:23 PM
Porsche seemed to do okay with their Can-Am cars in 1971/1972...
Yes, and all the 911's racing this weekend had them (H-6's), but I remember F-1 giving up on them in the late 80's or early '90's because they couldn't get them low enough for a competitive open wheeler.
oddlycalm
06-17-08, 04:56 PM
Subaru baby....:gomer:
http://www.iwoc.co.uk/images/subaru/subaruflat12.jpg
extramundane
06-17-08, 05:07 PM
Subaru baby....:gomer:
http://www.iwoc.co.uk/images/subaru/subaruflat12.jpg
Ack! Coloni flashback! :D
ScoobyDoo had Motori Moderni working hard on that engine just to get it mentioned at F1Rejects.com for not making it through pre-qualifying for a single GP.
Ack! Coloni flashback! :D
miatanut
06-18-08, 11:43 PM
Subaru baby....:gomer:
http://www.iwoc.co.uk/images/subaru/subaruflat12.jpg
Geez that's an ugly engine! Massive too. And rubber band cam drive on a F1 engine? Any wonder why it wasn't a success?!
I didn't remember the Subaru name as being connected to it.
http://www.iwoc.co.uk/subf1.html
"He said that the idea was to get the centre of gravity low, but this then results in a very wide engine at the detrement to bodywork and aerodynamics. He also pointed out that the engine could not be placed that low (we are talking F1 here remember) as the exhausts had to come out somewhere, necessitating it to then be raised!"
That's the part I remember. Lousy memory for names and numbers, but good memory for concepts.
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