Atlantic

[miatanut]

Apologies to the folks who read over at Smack, but...

Could Atlantic be transformed into the top rung of the ladder?

Vicki is the best leader in American open wheel, by far.
Mazda might be open to funding it.
The engine could be turbocharged to give it a bit more power.
The car could be revised to take away a lot of grip. I’d be all for dumping the rear wings, adjusting the front as needed, and ideally they could improve underbody downforce a bit. Then you would have a car with the power-to-grip levels where they should be for a top-level professional series.
Operating costs would remain moderate.

You would have tail-happy beasts which would put on a good show, and it would create a clear distinction between the better drivers and the rest. The kind of racing we’ve been missing these last few years. If they went the ‘no wings’ route, it would also attract a lot of attention, being different from all the wings and slicks clones out there.

In the late ‘70’s and early ‘80’s when CART was still doing the oval-oval-oval thing, Atlantic was a direct step to F1. Could it be again? With a road-racing based series using cars without traction control and power-to-grip levels similar to F1 (though with less power and less grip), it would hone the kind of car handling skills F1 drivers need which would attract a lot of very good talent to the series, as it did in the late ‘70’s and early ‘80’s.

Would it be feasible to transform Atlantic into a top-level series?

[SurfaceUnits]

It's the only one in NA without all the baggage

[opinionated ow]

Would it be feasible to transform Atlantic into a top-level series?
Nope. Forces have dictated that the IRL is now the top (much as it s^#$s me)-we need to make the irl big not create a splinter. A new splinter to an existing splinter would be total death.

[aportinga]

Nope. Forces have dictated that the IRL is now the top (much as it s^#$s me)-we need to make the irl big not create a splinter. A new splinter to an existing splinter would be total death.

BS... With an increase in power - and keeping Atlantic to only road courses where the IRL will never go to in the first place you are simply NOT creating a splinter. It's an entirely different product with less cash, less power and significantly less overhead.

The current schedule...

Long Beach*
Laguna Seca
Mt Tremblant
Edmonton*
Road America
Trois Rivieres
New Jersey Motorsports Park
Miller Motorsports Park
Road Atlanta

Short of Long Beach and Edmonton, the IRL is not gonna touch any of these other races period! Add in Brainerd, Cleveland, Portland...

Also take a look see at Alpine Motorsports Complex - PA.
http://www.alpinesignature.com/roadcourse.html

Lonestar Motorsports Park in - TX
http://www.lonestarmotorsportspark.com/page.php?id=36

Carolina Motorsports Park - SC
http://www.carolinamotorsportspark.com/trackabout.html

A good deal of these facilities are small and some do not even have bleechers. However THAT should not be an issue – most people at RA prefer not to even sit in the bleechers so let fans walk the track. Sell GA tickets at a reduced rate and hook up with a local charity for the event which will only increase print and radio exposure. Work with these promoters at a local level and let them know they have a piece of this – that this is a long term relationship which both entities will work to build. Get the races on SPEED and archived on line.

You currently have 16 teams with a total of 28 drivers. This goes up and down at times but why couldn't those teams from CC which did not migrate to the IRL also jump in? Forsythe and Walker are already in... This leaves Dale Coyne, PCM (if they never make the Indy grid) and Rocketsports. - Plenty of entries there!

No way this could not work with enough passion and discipline to keep things moving slowly and managing overhead.

It’s NOT gonna be the IRL! Hell it may not even be at that level. But it would be something I would tune into and but tickets for. And I know plenty of others that would as well.

[Andrew Longman]

I don't necessarily agree that the IRL will never look at some of those venues. Penske, Ganassi, Andretti, Lanigan and other owners are running the show now. If they want to go somewhere and think they can make money at it, TG has very little ability to say no.

But, lets say I'm wrong.

I don't think you can do away with the rear wing and so much downforce and still attract talent looking for a step to F1. Learning how to drive and give feedback on an aero car is too important in F1.

[cameraman]

You could bump it up to the level of GP2 and still run all those tracks. It would become the North American version of GP2 and it would do very well tied to ALMS and other weekends. They should just make it the best top feeder that they can and let FTG stew in his premier level crapfest.

[Sean O'Gorman]

Aside from a few hundred internet nerds and some drivers who can't afford an Indy car ride, who exactly is demanding this?

[cameraman]

Everyone in this country who has an interest in real open wheel racing and every kid who ever wants a shot at F1. The IRL is where you go to guarantee that you will never, ever make it to F1.

[redmist]

Aside from a few hundred internet nerds and some drivers who can't afford an Indy car ride, who exactly is demanding this?

who exactly is demanding what we have now? certainly not the fans.

[Sean O'Gorman]

Someone is apparently since they have 26 cars and a network TV package in HD. :confused:

[miatanut]

I don't necessarily agree that the IRL will never look at some of those venues. Penske, Ganassi, Andretti, Lanigan and other owners are running the show now. If they want to go somewhere and think they can make money at it, TG has very little ability to say no.

That sounds a lot like CART, but it's Tony's show, the only competition around is gone, and he is free to do as he wishes. Based on past evidence, that doesn't leave us with a very bright future.


I don't think you can do away with the rear wing and so much downforce and still attract talent looking for a step to F1. Learning how to drive and give feedback on an aero car is too important in F1.

Good point, but the really tricky stuff about tuning an aero car nowdays isn't the wings, it's the whole ride height/rake/spring stiffness thing, which the car would still have. If possible, I think it would be a good idea to increase the undertray downforce a little so the lap times don't get to where the lap time nuts get worked-up about the car being slower than a Crapotype, or (fill in the blank here) car.

[miatanut]

Nope. Forces have dictated that the IRL is now the top (much as it s^#$s me)-we need to make the irl big not create a splinter. A new splinter to an existing splinter would be total death.

I would second what aportinga said.

I would also like to mention that, while you were blessed not to have suffered through the USAC days, for those of us that did, a series run by Tony George is something we have ZERO interest in. Looking at their lack of bump in attendance and TV, it appears there are a lot of people in that group.

An up-graded Atlantic could scratch our itch just fine, and the IRL could focus on the kind of racing their core constituency wants.

[Andrew Longman]

That sounds a lot like CART, but it's Tony's show, the only competition around is gone, and he is free to do as he wishes. Based on past evidence, that doesn't leave us with a very bright future.

Except TG has to make those guys happy now. They are playing in ALMS and NASCAR now. If he loses them he really looks like he's the incapable leader. More so, he has little reason to oppose anything they see fit to do. He's in charge. What more could he ask for?


Good point, but the really tricky stuff about tuning an aero car nowdays isn't the wings, it's the whole ride height/rake/spring stiffness thing, which the car would still have. .

But there is also the driving with aero downforce. If you don't go fast enough to create sufficent downforce you actually have a better chance of crashing. :rolleyes:

[redmist]

Someone is apparently since they have 26 cars and a network TV package in HD. :confused:

pulling in sub 1's and the crown jewel getting less of a tv audience than the typical nascar race.

[miatanut]

Except TG has to make those guys happy now. They are playing in ALMS and NASCAR now. If he loses them he really looks like he's the incapable leader. More so, he has little reason to oppose anything they see fit to do. He's in charge. What more could he ask for?

You have more faith or optimism, or something along those lines than I!

[Andrew Longman]

You have more faith or optimism, or something along those lines than I!

Based on their brilliant leadership of CART?

Tony is clueless. If RP et al can find a way to make money on the right tracks (and a decent car formula, etc.) he's not likely to stop him so long as he thinks he's in charge and they all show up in May for his spectacle .

They are actual racers and they do know what constitutes actual competition, but no, I don't have faith they will ever again accomplish something close to what they had because in the end they don't have the control and whatever they do it will be compared to the past.

[Sean O'Gorman]

pulling in sub 1's and the crown jewel getting less of a tv audience than the typical nascar race.

The fact is, someone is paying to put those cars on track, even if its TG, its still someone. Again, who wants an Atlantic series with extra HP? Theres no demand.

[redmist]

The fact is, someone is paying to put those cars on track, even if its TG, its still someone. Again, who wants an Atlantic series with extra HP? Theres no demand.

i'd like to see it, so i guess there is some,albeit small, demand. although i doubt anyone is going to change things to please me. :)

[emjaya]

The fact is, someone is paying to put those cars on track, even if its TG, its still someone. Again, who wants an Atlantic series with extra HP? Theres no demand.

There isn't?

[stroker]

The fact is, someone is paying to put those cars on track, even if its TG, its still someone. Again, who wants an Atlantic series with extra HP? Theres no demand.

It's what, two months after Unifornication? Who in the middle of the bell curve has had a chance to look at the result and see that the .1RL is either:

1. still in the Death Spiral
2. holding steady
3. climbing for altitude

Our end of the curve sees #1. The gomers see #3. Most of the folks around here seem to see #2. But I don't see how anyone reasonable can make the claim that any of the three alternatives are a lock given the last 60 days. The ratings from the 500 are NOT a good omen, and if they don't have a significant series sponsor for '09 that would be another one. The bottom line is that they can't maintain half the field running a car for $3 million/yr while providing only $1 million exposure.

[miatanut]

Based on their brilliant leadership of CART?

Tony is clueless. If RP et al can find a way to make money on the right tracks (and a decent car formula, etc.) he's not likely to stop him so long as he thinks he's in charge and they all show up in May for his spectacle .

They are actual racers and they do know what constitutes actual competition, but no, I don't have faith they will ever again accomplish something close to what they had because in the end they don't have the control and whatever they do it will be compared to the past.

In my opinion, now that the war is won, Tony probably thinks the only person he has to satisfy is himself. Everybody else has to accept what he provides, because everybody needs Indy. A situation which was the goal from the very start.

Not sure what your comment about CART means. The sport saw tremendous growth from 1979 to about 2000. I think dumping Craig was a bad move. When Pimpski defected, everything went down in a hurry. Clearly, CART did not function well when under fire. When it was free to chart the course it wanted, it excelled.

[ChrisB]

Would it be feasible to transform Atlantic into a top-level series?

I doubt its possible to have 2 major-league formula car series in this country. The ICS is likely going to survive because it has The 500 and the BY400 to keep it afloat.

The irony is that the IMS are not really a "formula car" culture, and yet no other major formula car series can survive here because they keep theirs artificially afloat.

[Badger]

I'll bet it would be almost as successful as the USFL or maybe as big as Vince Mcmahon's football league.

[pchall]

It's what, two months after Unifornication? Who in the middle of the bell curve has had a chance to look at the result and see that the .1RL is either:

1. still in the Death Spiral
2. holding steady
3. climbing for altitude



Some of us on this end of the IRL fandom curve have been laughing at the IRL and its cars climbing for altitude for years. ;)

As for some sort of Super Atlantics series, I'd go see it in a heartbeat. Formula cars should be overpowered. Real racing needs car that are too fast for their brakes and accelerate too fast for their tires.

[Racing Truth]

Everyone in this country who has an interest in real open wheel racing and every kid who ever wants a shot at F1. The IRL is where you go to guarantee that you will never, ever make it to F1.

...FOR NOW. True, :tony: is still, nominally, in charge, but if they go to a schedule w/ more r/s races with turbos in '10, that can change.

[Racing Truth]

who exactly is demanding what we have now? certainly not the fans.

Sean's right. Not great, but 26 cars is something. Decent crowd today too, albeit red-hat enhanced.

Look, a few HUNDRED interweb fans aren't happy. I'm guessing no one cares about that.

But hey, what we REALLY need is another OW series.:gomer:

[Sean O'Gorman]

Also, I love how everyone assumes that Indy cars are slow (like any of you would be able to judge), but somehow, Atlantics cars with 450 HP would be faster. :rofl:

[Jervis Tetch 1]

Atlantics is the best.

[miatanut]

Also, I love how everyone assumes that Indy cars are slow (like any of you would be able to judge), but somehow, Atlantics cars with 450 HP would be faster. :rofl:

Not everyone.

Anyone who has been watching since the early '70's knows the top-level cars are now speed limited in the interest of safety. With that, it just comes down to how and how much you restrict them.

Now, take a smaller chassis, over-power it so you have a tail-happy beast, and you will get the best racing you've seen in 30 years.

That's what this thread is about.

Personally, I don't really care if the resulting car is slower than a crapwagon, crapotype, or (fill in the blank here) car. Five seconds of lap time over a two mile road course really isn't that noticeable without a stop watch.

Something that wiggles around when a driver under pressure gives it a little too much throttle a little too soon makes for much more interesting racing.

[miatanut]

Sean's right. Not great, but 26 cars is something. Decent crowd today too, albeit red-hat enhanced.

Look, a few HUNDRED interweb fans aren't happy. I'm guessing no one cares about that.

But hey, what we REALLY need is another OW series.:gomer:

Then there all the folks who gave CART races good TV ratings every week and numbered over 100,000 ticket buyers per three day weekend, week in, week out.. They are long gone, because the product we've had the last few years has been pretty lousy. I found myself hoping CCWS was going to end soon, because I would find it pretty difficult to make myself get off the train before the end of the line, even though I really wanted to. Now, that's over, and there is no reason in the world for me to watch what now passes for top-level open wheel in this country.

On the other hand, tweak an existing series a bit (as opposed to yet another OW series), and it would be possible to provide a product comparable to what I get to enjoy at vintage and club events, but with the additional exposure that comes with professional racing.

[pchall]

SOG is a true believer in the cult of the underpowered and over-tyred motorsports device. He's probably never seen an overpowered car on track that didn't have traction control.



Now, take a smaller chassis, over-power it so you have a tail-happy beast, and you will get the best racing you've seen in 30 years.

[Sean O'Gorman]

And how do you justify that the current cars are too slow? They are still very difficult to set up properly and drive, let alone drive faster than 25 other guys and some broads, thats all that matters to me.

[cameraman]

...FOR NOW. True, :tony: is still, nominally, in charge, but if they go to a schedule w/ more r/s races with turbos in '10, that can change.And I might win the Publisher's Clearing House sweepstakes too.

Equally likely I'd say.

[oddlycalm]

The irony is that the IMS are not really a "formula car" culture, and yet no other major formula car series can survive here because they keep theirs artificially afloat. Best succinct statement of the situation I've seen. But the key word though is "major."

aportinga is right, the Atlantics have a whole seasons worth of races to run without interfering with the EARL. Atlantics are inexpensive to run, sponsorship buy-ins low and it's a well run operation. Ticket prices can be affordable which will be important with expensive fuel and tight family budgets.

Start small and develop an audience. Down the line if it's feasible look at moving to a GP2-esque mechanical platform along the lines of 700kg and 500hp. Let things develop and you never know what will happen.

The EARL is trying to serve two audiences and is likely to fail with both. The oval track "open wheel" crowd hates that he's turned it into CART II and the dumbed carnival atmospher turns off the formula car fans. TG can fund it until the cows come home but it's too big a culture clash and it has been since 1965. He and KK agreeing on a merge doesn't mean it'll work, and my best guess is that it won't. TG will still have his race, and that's about all he'll have. Welcome to the USAC trail circa 2010 with Tony's race and dozen other poorly attended forgettable events.

There is a strong audience for road racing in the US, both two and four wheel varieties, that has not been well served in recent years. That equals demand, and someone will fill it. It may not be premier level for some time, but just as F5000 developed apart from USAC I seen something else developing apart from the EARL.

oc

[Andrew Longman]

I recall an interview with Mario on RPM2nite regarding how to end the split. He was debating with someone about what the sport needs and said something like, "...but practically no one came to our races until we went road racing and then the crowds were huge!"

I have some hope that now that TG has what he wants (control) the same people who created CART will complete the CARTII transformation, and for the same seasons CART was created in the first place. Namely, that most formula fans are road racing fans and that's largely where the series success will be.

Who else is going to add venues except the likes of Andretti, Penske and Lanigan and are they likely to add anything but a road course? What oval could they conceivably add?

The gomers will just have to be happy that TG is in charge, their race is secure and they have no one left to blame.

The critical thing will be to get the formula right. It sucks now and the car is freaky looking to boot. That can't be fixed fast enough.

[oddlycalm]

The critical thing will be to get the formula right. It sucks now and the car is freaky looking to boot. That can't be fixed fast enough. I dunno, the more I'm seeing this unfold I think the culture is going to be as important, or more so, than the car, tracks, etc. The state fair / carnival / lowest common denominator approach isn't going to connect with many road race fans.

oc