Brainfart Favors Turbo-4!?

[NismoZ]

Rumor sez. "General agreement" from manufacturers Audi, BMW, Chevy, Fiat, Mazda (:thumbup:) and VW that the next engine should be turbocharged, though most favored a V-6, but Barnhart liked a 4! Cosworth, Judd, Ilmor and AER all sent reps and 93% say they'll come back to discuss further. So, who's out...Chevy?:D

[Sean Malone]

93% of the hairs on the back of my neck are standing in high anticipation!

[Methanolandbrats]

:eek: Quite a turnaround if the braintrust does something right. :gomer:

[pchall]

Interesting, the manufacturers prefer a V6, which would tie in with their more upscale offerings while Brainfart prefers the I4...he might as well make it a diesel, too. That's the way econoboxes are going in Europe these days.

[NismoZ]

Don't know about my hair standing up but any talk of turbos, 4s, Mazdas, Cosworths or actual interest in OWR from people with influence and $$ is nothing to ignore even if we can't believe it yet. I like the sound of the direction at least, even if Panoz and Swift weren't mentioned.

[NismoZ]

Plus, you HAVE to know who planted that turbo 4 idea in BF's head? He's talked about it with at least one Atlantic owner but worried the thing would be too fast for the ICS! Just talk, but again it shows the direction ideas are taking and it sounds good to me.:)

[Andrew Longman]

Plus, you HAVE to know who planted that turbo 4 idea in BF's head?

ChrisB? :D

Seriously, Chris and others have been talking about this on the innerweb for almost ten years.

What will be interesting is if this falls the direction of customer lump makers like Cosworth and Ilmore, or if it goes the way of manufacturers, both, or just badging customer lumps.

That plays out a lot of different ways money-wise and that's always what determines the outcome

[NismoZ]

Yep. Guess I was "others", but I usually argued against the 1000hp scenerio and FOR dumping wings! Which was more radical?:D I've often wondered what a "Super Atlantic" car would act like on an oval. We all know how effective it could be in road race trim. Is it beyond thinking the demise of F-Atlantic (if it even happens) could lead to a new ICS formula superior to the crap we see there now? Justice would see at least an Indy Lights Super Atlantic Series instead of the crap we see THERE now but I won't hold my breath on that one.:shakehead But gee, they ARE going to make them (Lights) sound better next year!:gomer:

[Insomniac]

I'd like to see a turbo 4. I'd hope it would translate to street cars. For the most part, upgrading to a model with a turbo also means a bigger engine.

[FCYTravis]

Yeah, I don't see the need for a V6 either... I mean, V6s aren't exactly known as "performance" motors anywhere... at least, not since Busch Grand National stopped using them :laugh:

Seriously, the only "performance car" I can think off of the top of my head with a V6 is the 350Z.

BMW's never even built a V6, so I can't see them liking that formula. Their small turbo cars have been I4s.

The one drawback to an I4 that I can see is that the block would be small and narrow compared to a V-engine... would that create complications for its use as a full stressed member of the chassis? The I4-powered formula cars I've had a chance to get up close and personal with (Swift 014 Atlantics, FF2000s) always had additional rear frame tubes, making the engine a semi-stressed member.

[pchall]

Cosworth GBA 850+ BHP

http://www.statsf1.com/photos/moteurs/FCosworth15V6T.jpg

Some of the most exciting years in F1 were powered by V6 turbos.



Yeah, I don't see the need for a V6 either... I mean, V6s aren't exactly known as "performance" motors anywhere... at least, not since Busch Grand National stopped using them :laugh:

[FCYTravis]

That's true, but the formula wasn't limited to V6s. BMW and Zakspeed used I4s, and Alfa Romeo even had a 1.5L V8 :eek:

Turbo I4s are directly relevant to the modern performance car industry, whereas I don't think there's a single production car in the United States running a turbo on a V6.

Then again, there weren't any production cars running alcohol-fueled, tiny-displacement, high-revving turbocharged V8s, so maybe that doesn't matter.

[extramundane]

Personally, I think they should go spec with the 1980 4.9L turbo Firebird engine. 4 out of 5 Trackforum Gomers agree. :gomer:

[emjaya]

That's true, but the formula wasn't limited to V6s. BMW and Zakspeed used I4s, and Alfa Romeo even had a 1.5L V8 :eek:

Turbo I4s are directly relevant to the modern performance car industry, whereas I don't think there's a single production car in the United States running a turbo on a V6.

Then again, there weren't any production cars running alcohol-fueled, tiny-displacement, high-revving turbocharged V8s, so maybe that doesn't matter.

I think someone had a straight 6 as well, Hart maybe?

Ferrari were able to make a 1.5L V12 in the early fifties and a Flat 12 1.5L F1 motor in the sixties, so anything is possible. BRM had a 1.5L V16 in the early fifties as well.

A 3.5L turbo-charged stock block is the way to drag manufacturers back in, I think. :\

[Methanolandbrats]

Blown four cylinders would be cool. High tech, lot's of power and a good test bed for manufacturers since it has roadcar implications. I'm a big VW guy, four of them in the driveway..............I want a modern SuperVee motor :D

[cameraman]

This is Tony George we are talking about here. i wouldn't be surprised to to see semi-stressed engines with specifications modeled on Grand Am. It would be cheaper.

[stroker]

by 2011 who'll GAF? The way the world economy is going is anyone going to be able to convince any responsible corporate management to sink a pile of yen/marks/whatever into a stinking schiesshole of a series? For (by comparison) NO money they could stick a turbo on the current Atlantic and be 3/4 of the way to where they need to be NEXT YEAR.

[pchall]

I drool over the turbo V6 2.7L every time I run my dad's Audi A6. I haven't had a chance to drive one with the V6 3.2L with supercharger, though. It might change my mind...



Turbo I4s are directly relevant to the modern performance car industry, whereas I don't think there's a single production car in the United States running a turbo on a V6.

[FCYTravis]

Oh my gawd, I forgot about the sweet blown Audi motors... how could I have been so stupid! :tony:

The original S4 was to die for.

[SteveH]

Rumor sez. "General agreement" from manufacturers Audi, BMW, Chevy, Fiat, Mazda (:thumbup:) and VW that the next engine should be turbocharged, though most favored a V-6, but Barnhart liked a 4!

So when the gomers start talking about a turbocharged 4 cylinder, you do know what that means, right?

http://home.earthlink.net/~roygmisc1/startoffy1/startoffy3.jpg

Offenhauser

Next up, tube frame chassis! :gomer:

[Rogue Leader]

Turbo I4s are directly relevant to the modern performance car industry, whereas I don't think there's a single production car in the United States running a turbo on a V6.


The BMW 335i has a twin turbo I6.... close enough!

[Spicoli]

I drool over the turbo V6 2.7L every time I run my dad's Audi A6. I haven't had a chance to drive one with the V6 3.2L with supercharger, though. It might change my mind...


i have driven the r6 and it is bad ass. just don;t try to get parts. :gomer:

[Duroc]

Offenhauser


They have as much chance of landing Packard, Plymouth, Olds or REO as any on the above wish list.

[ChrisB]

ChrisB?

OK, yea it was me. I still haven't heard back from Brian on the other ideas, like the 1000hp, no more wings, mega-fat slicks, and that whole offset front-engine thing. :)


I posted a poll on cylinder # on TF if anyone is interested:


http://www.trackforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=110782

[STD]

Cosworth GBA 850+ BHP

http://www.statsf1.com/photos/moteurs/FCosworth15V6T.jpg

Some of the most exciting years in F1 were powered by V6 turbos.

The V6 was the the way to go. Strong enough to be a fully stressed component, wider thus more useable power band, less internal vibration, reliability, symmentrical layout allowing a cleaner, more balanced, as well as a more aerodynamic total package.
BMW, the only real I-4 contender of the turbo era, won it's championship in 1983 more to tactics than raw power or reliability. The fact that their I-4 ate more gas than they could legally carry at one time at a competitive bar, brought on the refueling pit stops that meant that the car could start the race with less fuel than the others and the use of softer tires due to the lesser weight, while carrying competitive bar settings. Stop half way for fuel and new softs. (The way in which refueling, high pressure fed systems, was done by Brabham and the others as they caught up as the season went on caused the total ban on refueling until 1994. Refueling before 1983 was too much of a loss of time in the pits to be worth the attempt.)
But it only gave Brabham, BMW and Piquet 3 wins (Patrese added one other win) on the way to the drivers championship. (Renault blew chances left and right I might add.)
From then on V6s ruled without doubt.
Anyone that built a turbo engine from the ground up used a V6 design, except Alfa. Porsche, Ford, Honda, Ferrari and of course Motori Moderni :saywhat:
BMW, Hart (na F2 engines) and Zakspeed (sedan, GroupC and GTP turbo) I-4s. Renault's V6 came out of the development of a na F2 engine as well, which was first turbocharged for LeMans use.
Ford's V6 came on too late (design started up in 1984) as Cosworth had spent much time trying to build a turbocharged I-4 from an already on the shelf na I-4 engine as the others. It never made it off the dyno vibrating and warping it's way into a seized lump at least six times before the program was dropped.
The I-6 was by the Heidegger company. It was built to the rules from the ground up and was smaller and much lighter than the BMW conversion. The engine had a central power take-off which meant it was more like two 3 cylinder units joined together. Never raced.

[miatanut]

Yep. Guess I was "others", but I usually argued against the 1000hp scenerio and FOR dumping wings! :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

[Sean Malone]

Saab has a turbo 6 and I think Pontiac has a supercharger on a V6 in one of their mid-sized sedans or they did a few years back. Doesn't Jag have some supercharged versions available in the States? Not sure.