WTF is up with Honda and Williams?

[stroker]

these guys can't seem to find their asses with both hands? Williams was putting the wood to Toader until this year and now they're struggling to keep both cars ahead of Force India?

[cameraman]

Honda is self-inflicted Honda-ness and Williams is suffering greatly from Max's idiotic rules.

[oddlycalm]

Brawn showed his value on Sunday by nearly putting Ruebens in the money in a crap car. If they really did let him take the reins Honda should look considerably better for 2009. Agreed on Williams, Max is killing the independents a little with every new rule he pulls out of his tailpipe.

oc

[Insomniac]

Brawn showed his value on Sunday by nearly putting Ruebens in the money in a crap car. If they really did let him take the reins Honda should look considerably better for 2009. Agreed on Williams, Max is killing the independents a little with every new rule he pulls out of his tailpipe.

oc

Brawn made the tire decision?

[STD]

Honda should have started their own team instead of buying Barf and the dead weight that went with it.

[opinionated ow]

Honda should have started their own team instead of buying Barf and the dead weight that went with it.

not signing a mediocre driver on a 5 year contract might have helped...

[STD]

I was including that in with the dead weight. :rofl:
They did 'buy' into that mistake as well.

[pchall]

I agree about "Honda-ness" aka "corporate head up your butt", but Williams also suffers from Sir Frank's pigheadedness about having a factory engine deal. Becoming a second class citizen in the Toyota ranks was not a good move (except, perhaps, financially). If Williams was the only chassis running Toyota power he'd be as well off as Ron Dennis at McLaren. As is, he should have stuck with Cosworth and hunted for the extra sponsorship to pay for the program.


Honda is self-inflicted Honda-ness and Williams is suffering greatly from Max's idiotic rules.

[cameraman]

Toyota, Honda, Renault, Ferrari, BMW and Mercedes Benz all paid for the development of their engines, who would have funded any Cosworth engine development?

[STD]

I think Frank got all he could out of Jenson's Euros.

[Methanolandbrats]

Fhonda is too busy concentrating their R&D on the IRL........they don't want anyone sneaking up on them.

[pchall]

Sir Frank could have parked outside the gates at all the GPs with a tin cup. Might have attracted the notice of some cash flush sheik or exec from some Dubai "based" tech company.

BTW, the spec for the V8 was frozen at the end of the one season the Cosworth 2.4L was raced, so the price of development should have gone down some. ;)


Toyota, Honda, Renault, Ferrari, BMW and Mercedes Benz all paid for the development of their engines, who would have funded any Cosworth engine development?

[STD]

Seems to be an aerodynamics problem as well as how to divide the time spent on the 2008 vs. 2009 car.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/68983

[DagoFast]

Frank Williams 2008= Ken Tyrell 1992

[Chaos]

What was Frank Williams supposed to do?

The only scenario which would have got him a works engine is if he sold some, if not all, of his team to BMW. He would have lost control.

So his options were:
a. be a silent partner of BMW
b. own a 2nd (3rd?) tier F1 team.

I'm sure he'd gladly accept another works deal (provided he kept all ownership), but no other manufacturers are trying to get into F1.

[cameraman]

BTW, the spec for the V8 was frozen at the end of the one season the Cosworth 2.4L was raced, so the price of development should have gone down some. ;)Yeah, some:saywhat:

5.4.5 When establishing conformity with Article 5.4, the engine will not include:
- clutch and clutch actuation system ;
- flywheel ;
- electronic control units or any associated devices containing programmable semiconductors ;
- the alternator regulator ;
- liquids ;
- exhaust manifolds ;
- heat shields ;
- oil tanks, catch tanks or any breather system connected to them;
- studs used to mount the engine to the chassis or gearbox ;
- water system accumulators ;
- heat exchangers ;
- hydraulic system (e.g. pumps, accumulators, manifolds, servovalves, solenoids, actuators) except servo-valve and actuator for engine throttle control ;
- fuel pumps nor any component not mounted on the engine when fitted to the car.
- any ancillary equipment associated with the engine valve air system, such as hoses, regulators, reservoirs or compressors.
Furthermore, any parts which are not ordinarily part of an engine will not be included when assessing its weight. Examples of this could be, but are not limited to :
- Wiring harnesses having only a partial association with engine actuators or sensors ;
- A bell housing designed to be integral with the engine crankcase;
- Top engine mountings designed higher than necessary with integral webs or struts. The centre of any engine mounting which is part of a cam cover should not be any more than 100mm above a line between the camshaft centres, when measured parallel to it. Any webs integral with the cam cover should not extend further back than the centre of the second cylinder bore.
- Ballast. This is permitted on the engine (subject to the requirements of Article 4.2) but any in excess of 2kg will be removed from the engine before measuring engine weight or centre of gravity height.

None of us has ever seen any real numbers but I'm thinking that the folks at Ferrari, M-B, BMW et al have probably spent just a wee bit more cash developing those unfrozen engine bits than either Kalkhoven or Forsythe would have been willing to invest.