Slow down, To¥ota! To¥ota slow down!

[pchall]

Winston Salem Journal (http://www2.journalnow.com/content/2008/jul/06/nascar-notebook-toyotas-horsepower-edge-may-lead-t/?sports-professional-auto-racing)


NASCAR Notebook

COMPILED BY MIKE MULHERN

Published: July 6, 2008

Toyota's horsepower edge may lead to a penalty

■ NASCAR may be ready to slap Toyota with an engine-horsepower penalty on the Nationwide tour after yet another win by the Joe Gibbs team Friday night.

It was Dave Rogers' ninth tour win as crew chief, this time for Denny Hamlin, in a one-two finish with teammate Kyle Busch. It was Gibbs' 12th Nationwide win in the 18 races so far.

Ford's Jack Roush said the Toyotas have so much more horsepower than Ford and Chevy that Toyota crews can put more downforce in their cars -- with a wider front end -- for better handling in the corners because the Toyotas have the horsepower to push that extra drag. "A monkey could drive that car," Roush said, referring to the Toyota edge.

■ Chevrolet has been pushing for NASCAR to OK its Cup-side R07 engine for Nationwide competition; NASCAR has been pushing Ford to design a new Nationwide engine, but Ford men say they can't afford to make obsolete what engine parts they're currently using.

"If they want to kill that series, go right ahead," Roush said.

In NASCAR's three national touring series this season, Toyota teams have won 24 of the 48 races, including Friday night's victory. The majority of those wins have been by Gibbs' teams, which have won six Cup races going into last night's race.



The rumbling begins.

[Sean Malone]

:gomer:

[Methanolandbrats]

:D

[Michaelhatesfans]

http://www.lifeisajoke.com/simpsons/magnets/Mr-Burns-Excellent.bmp

[cameraman]

Okay explain something to me since I've ignored all things nascar for years now.

They have engine rules of some kind.
Following those rules the Toyota mill makes the highest HP.
The Chevy R07 is outside the spec??? which is why they are not using it???
The Ford mill is so hopeless that the series wants it replaced but it will cost too much???

So the answer is to put a restrictor on the Toyota mill??

Least I don't have to feel bad about not watching it:rolleyes:

[stroker]

Okay explain something to me since I've ignored all things nascar for years now.

They have engine rules of some kind.
Following those rules the Toyota mill makes the highest HP.
The Chevy R07 is outside the spec??? which is why they are not using it???
The Ford mill is so hopeless that the series wants it replaced but it will cost too much???

So the answer is to put a restrictor on the Toyota mill??

Least I don't have to feel bad about not watching it:rolleyes:

ummm, yeah, I think you've got it down pretty well.

:D

[Methanolandbrats]

A spec motor is not that far off, then the manufacturers will only provide valve covers. Ya can't have any engineering excellence screwing up the "close racin'"

[pchall]

4 out of 5 of the Top 5 Nationwide cars at Chicago were To¥otas last night. NASCAR is pulling the "motors" from 9 cars to do some dyno testing to determine exactly how much horsepower Ford, Chevy, and To¥ota have in the second tier series.

I suspect that NASCAR will be installing air restrictor plates sized by engine brand in all the entries sooner than later.

[NismoZ]

So, how many race series already do that? Are they ruined? Just add/subtract air or weight? Some do that, right? Not like this is a new problem for sanctioning bodies, is it? I mean this was discussed at least 4 years ago, how can ANYbody be surprised at what Toyota yen/$ is accomplishing? Isn't that their biggest advantage? (cubic dollars) The only thing that has surprised me so far in all this is that Penske is running Dodge! Ahhhch...they all ought to go to turbo 4s anyway!:gomer:

[Insomniac]

The only thing that has surprised me so far in all this is that Penske is running Dodge!

I'm sure as soon as he can switch, he will switch. (Of course, $$$ is a part of it too. How much they pay him, that is.)

[patski]

I'm sure as soon as he can switch, he will switch. (Of course, $$$ is a part of it too. How much they pay him, that is.)

With the captain, $$ are everything.

[Andrew Longman]

Before they went all common template/CoT on us, they would simply have taken/given a little wing angle week to week to keep the brands in line.

Of course that seemed goofy then, but it was a lot cheaper than what they are looking at now.

Seriously, given that Dodge, Ford and GM are broke they won't invest in anything more than headlight decals, but that works for them. They'd even be OK with renting space on a valve cover, because it will continue to sell their crappy cars to people who won't buy anything except American brands.

But Toyota is going to have to come to grips with whether they are racing to win or to sell cars. My guess is they realize that to sell to a certain segment of America that segment just needs time with them to get comfortable putting them on equal footing with Chevy and Ford.

[SurfaceUnits]

dey betta not h8 on yoda, because dey bout 2b dee only pony in da show

[oddlycalm]

I seem to recall folks here predicted this from the get go....:cool:

oc

[NismoZ]

Looooong time ago...Jack Rousch, too!:D

[SurfaceUnits]

American racing, brought to you by Honda and Toyota :shakehead

I guess the NHRA is the last bastion of good ol "Murican racin

[extramundane]

American racing, brought to you by Honda and Toyota :shakehead

I guess the NHRA is the last bastion of good ol "Murican racin

Yep. :D

http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/9645/jimheadte8.jpg

[SurfaceUnits]

[Q] I'm A Race Fan (NHRA,NASCAR,AMA,ect)should Toyota Be Allowed In NASCAR? After All They Don't Make A Production Over Head Valve Motors. Did Toyota Buy Their Way In?


[A] It is my opinion that toyota bought their way in. and your question is quite interesting my friend as i have a debate on the same subject. in my debate i concluded that no, foreign cars should be allowed to enter into the all-american race. furthermore my reasoning was based upon junior johnson not running from the police carrying his moonshine in a toyota camry.

[Gangrel]

But Toyota is going to have to come to grips with whether they are racing to win or to sell cars. My guess is they realize that to sell to a certain segment of America that segment just needs time with them to get comfortable putting them on equal footing with Chevy and Ford.

I understand that the mentality you refer to exists, but why on earth would Toyota ever want to step all the way down to equal footing with Chevy and Ford? :D

[opinionated ow]

I understand that the mentality you refer to exists, but why on earth would Toyota ever want to step all the way down to equal footing with Chevy and Ford? :D

It's a pity Ford can't get its crap together at home...the European built/designed cars are both HOT and well built

[Andrew Longman]

I understand that the mentality you refer to exists, but why on earth would Toyota ever want to step all the way down to equal footing with Chevy and Ford? :D

I think if they can gain some comfort among folk like the ones quotes above by SurfaceUnits, then they will finally put a nail in the big three's coffin.

Consider that the Camry is made in KY, but it is competing on the track with a Fusion (well Fusion decals) made in Mexico, and an Impala and Charger made in Canada.

I don't think getting their butt kicked would be good for sales, but being competitive will be just fine, I think.

[TKGAngel]

Seriously, given that Dodge, Ford and GM are broke they won't invest in anything more than headlight decals, but that works for them. They'd even be OK with renting space on a valve cover, because it will continue to sell their crappy cars to people who won't buy anything except American brands.


Jayski has some interesting info about how GM's problems are affecting its racetrack contracts. I really do think that their problems are really going to affect NASCAR this time, as the sport has been relatively shielded from any previous cuts.

[Michaelhatesfans]

I seem to recall folks here predicted this from the get go....:cool:

oc

Well, yeah. But it doesn't take anything away from the joy of watching it all unfold.:D

[Andrew Longman]

Jayski has some interesting info about how GM's problems are affecting its racetrack contracts. I really do think that their problems are really going to affect NASCAR this time, as the sport has been relatively shielded from any previous cuts.

At this point I think NASCAR wants manufacturing support because it helps the fan suspend disbelief that the cars have nothing at all to do with the car they happen to drive. But all they need are some decals on the car and drivers featured in a few ads to accomplish that.

And that may be all they can afford. The way they are headed they may simply become marketing and assembly organizations that, domestically anyway, assemble designs coming from Mitsubishi, Mazda, and Izuzu and sell them with their badging on them.

For Nascar, they simply need to replace that team funding with other sponsor dollars and they've basically done that, current recession induced problems (e.g., Ganassi #40) aside.

[Gangrel]

I think if they can gain some comfort among folk like the ones quotes above by SurfaceUnits, then they will finally put a nail in the big three's coffin.

Consider that the Camry is made in KY, but it is competing on the track with a Fusion (well Fusion decals) made in Mexico, and an Impala and Charger made in Canada.

I don't think getting their butt kicked would be good for sales, but being competitive will be just fine, I think.

What does Toyota need to do to gain comfort among those folks? Drop a transmission on the street every 30k miles or so? Include the surprise grenade feature in their engines? Put mouldings on the car using special time-release disintegrating fittings?

[Methanolandbrats]

What does Toyota need to do to gain comfort among those folks? Drop a transmission on the street every 30k miles or so? Include the surprise grenade feature in their engines? Put mouldings on the car using special time-release disintegrating fittings? It's all Gomerism. They're the last of the die hard "I'm gonna drive what my daddy done drove" types. One more generation to go and it's all over for the Big Three.

[SurfaceUnits]

The new Camry's are coming out with gun racks :gomer:

and I have yet to see a Honda in Indianapolis with an IRl sticker on it.

[Winston Wolfe]

It's all Gomerism. They're the last of the die hard "I'm gonna drive what my daddy done drove" types. One more generation to go and it's all over for the Big Three.

it may not take another generation..... Chrysler, LLC just announced on friday that they are getting out of the leasing business. They are set to end their participation due to the huge drop in residual values on SUVs and trucks, which is where they have moved most of their sales. Ford Motor Credit just announced they expect a $2.1 BILLION charge-off or write down on their upcoming off-lease portfolio due to the decrease in demand for their gas guzzlers, SUV, Truck heavy line-up.
http://www.dailysentinel.com/money/content/shared-gen/ap/Finance_General/Chrysler_Leasing.html
The southwest, lower midwest, florida and greater NY metro, are mostly import dominated markets in terms of registration penetration already. Remove the trucks and SUVs from the mix, and the numbers get worse for the "domestics".... Toyota, Honda, and to a lesser extent, Nissan, Mazda, Hyundai, Kia and Mitsu dominate the car segments.... like I said. continued gasoline prices at $4.00 PLUS are gonna put a serious hurt on the domestics.
It may not take another generation.... unfortunately

[cameraman]

and I have yet to see a Honda in Indianapolis with an IRl sticker on it.

Absolute truth here, the only IRL stickers I have ever seen here were on pick ups with Wyoming tags and gun racks.

[SurfaceUnits]

Ford said the special items included $8 billion in write-offs stemming from the loss in value to Ford North American and its Ford Credit lease portfolio.

[SurfaceUnits]

Unfair NASCAR rule change will motivate Toyota to destroy Chevy, Ford and Dodge

Kyle Busch was frustrated by NASCAR's latest rule change. He took it out on the competition.

Busch led all but three laps Saturday night to win the Kroger 200 for Toyota's 15th victory in 22 Nationwide races this season. It was the first event since NASCAR's mandate Wednesday to cut down the horsepower in Series engines knocked 15 horsepower out of Toyota's engines (read more). NASCAR changed the parameters after rival teams complained, even though Toyota was within the rules.

"We wanted to come out here this weekend and sort of get a little sweet revenge on everybody," Busch said. "It turned out that way, and it worked out in our favor."

Busch won his 15th race of the season spanning NASCAR's three series, breaking the record of 14 set by Kevin Harvick in 2006. He has six Nationwide wins in 20 starts this year (watch video).

[SurfaceUnits]

NASCAR had taken engines from a Nationwide race at Milwaukee for dynamometer testing at the sanctioning body's research-and-development center in Concord, N.C. The results of a small sample showed Toyota with a peak horsepower advantage of 21 over Ford, 20 over Chevrolet and four over Dodge.

After Kyle Busch won the July 11 race at Chicagoland in the No. 18 Gibbs Toyota -- the 14th Toyota victory in 20 races to that point -- NASCAR took 10 power plants to Concord for testing: three Toyotas, three Chevrolets, two Fords and two Dodges. In the third dyno test of the season for the Nationwide Series, those 10 not-so-little engines told a different story.

"I know the numbers for every car that was tested, and the whole motor issue sounds a lot quieter this week than it did in weeks past," said Dave Rogers, crew chief for all nine of the No. 20 Toyota's 2008 victories, which have featured four different drivers. "That's because there was a lot of parity.

"If you take out the best and the worst, the first and the 10th car, and you look at those eight in the middle -- and we were in the middle -- there was a lot of parity, more than NASCAR could ask for. You have a two-horsepower spread that captures six or seven cars."

[SurfaceUnits]

NASCAR squeezes N'wide horses on Toyota motors
Amendment in series rule book effective immediately

Though results of recent dynamometer tests showed greater parity between the Nationwide Series engines of Toyota and those of other manufacturers, NASCAR issued a technical bulletin informing teams of a rule change that will reduce Toyota's horsepower.

"At all Events, unless otherwise specified, all engines with a cylinder bore spacing less than 4.470 inches must compete using a tapered spacer with four (4) 1.125-inch diameter holes. At all Events, unless otherwise specified, all engines with a cylinder bore spacing of 4.470 inches or more must compete using a tapered spacer with four (4) 1.100-inch diameter holes. Unless otherwise authorized, the carburetor restrictor will be issued by NASCAR."
-- Amendment to Section 20A -- 5.10.4, Nationwide Series Rule Book

The effect of the change is to limit air flow to the engine, thereby reducing horsepower, by narrowing the diameters of holes in the tapered spacer NASCAR introduced into the series this year. Installed at the intake of an engine, the spacer functions as a restrictor plate. The smaller the holes in the spacer, the lower the horsepower.

Specifically, the rule change requires engines with a cylinder bore spacing of 4.470 inches or more to run a tapered spacer with four holes measuring 1.100 inches each in diameter, compared with the 1.125-inch holes previously required. Toyota engines currently are the only ones in use in the Nationwide Series that feature a cylinder bore spacing of 4.470 inches or more.

NASCAR's intent with the rule change is to balance competition. Toyota has won 14 of 21 Nationwide races this season, with cars fielded by Joe Gibbs Racing accounting for 13 victories. The No. 20 JGR Camry has won nine times, with four different drivers behind the wheel.

Toyota, which debuted in the Sprint Cup and Nationwide series simultaneously last season, has its new engine package in place in NASCAR's "Triple-A" league. Eventually, NASCAR expects Chevrolet, Ford and Dodge to follow suit and upgrade their engine packages in the Nationwide Series.

"Eventually, all teams that upgrade to new engine packages will be subject to this rule modification," NASCAR vice president of competition Robin Pemberton said Wednesday in a release describing the rule change. "Over the years in our sport, we've taken steps on numerous occasions to help maintain a level playing field among our competitors, and we will continue to do so."

[Andrew Longman]

Toyota, which debuted in the Sprint Cup and Nationwide series simultaneously last season, has its new engine package in place in NASCAR's "Triple-A" league. Eventually, NASCAR expects Chevrolet, Ford and Dodge to follow suit and upgrade their engine packages in the Nationwide Series.

"Eventually, all teams that upgrade to new engine packages will be subject to this rule modification," NASCAR vice president of competition Robin Pemberton said Wednesday in a release describing the rule change."
Why would they upgrade? They don't have millions to spend developing a motor that will only be restricted to run as fast as what they currently have. They just took away any reason to develop a new engine


"Over the years in our sport, we've taken steps on numerous occasions to help maintain a level playing field among our competitors, and we will continue to do so.".

Odd notion of a level playing field. Win by following the rules and we'll change the rule to slow you down.

I continue to wonder why Toyota is playing in NASCAR and can only conclude they want the Gomers to start to forget they are a Japanese nameplate

[SurfaceUnits]

One gomer has goned off the deep end


S. S. NASCAR Hits Iceberg at Indy....Sinking Fast
Filed under: CarlEdwards DaleEarnhardtJr JeffGordon KyleBusch MattKenseth NASCAR
Jul 28, 2008 03:09 AM | [report abuse]

After Indianapolis, and what may have been a precursor to NASCAR'S Waterloo....

"If it ain't broke, don't fix it...."

NASCAR is broken. Can it be fixed ?

How on earth can an entity so fixated upon rules, control and "doing what is right", according to that "mysterious and nebulous RULE BOOK" permit and orchestrate a fiasco, the likes of which have never been seen, dreamed of, or endured ?

If NASCAR can commandeer race cars after competitions, and load them up on haulers to be moved to their test facilities in North Carolina, for examination, scrutiny and measurement, does it not seem plausible and reasonable that one of the biggest races of the year can be conducted under optimum conditions?

If NASCAR can penalize teams, suspend Crew Chiefs and Car Chiefs, fine owners and crew members, subtract points and otherwise lower its boom on participants because of fractionally computed deviations from set rules, the understanding of which is more often than not subject to interpretation, shouldn't fans have a reasonable expectation that an equal amount of attention to detail will be accorded to the production of races?

If race teams who drive the cars of a specific manufacturer, whose engineering expertise has enabled it to supercede the efforts of its competition, are penalized, mid-season, and forced to alter their equipment under the guise of NASCAR'S attention to fairness, parity and equal opportunity, shouldn't all race teams be afforded similar attention to detail regarding matters of equipment?

NASCAR lost a considerable amount of credibility this week.

The fiasco forcing Toyota Nationwide engines to reduce their horsepower in an attempt to harness their "unfair competitive advantage" was a joke. Amazingly, Kyle Busch won last Saturday night's race just as convincingly as usual.

IN YOUR FACE, NASCAR, and also those who complained about Toyota so voiciferously. I lost even more respect for the blathering Rusty Wallace, after his television tirade about Toyota's cheating.

The tire issues at the Indy race were unimaginably disastrous, and the excuse for a competition was unforgivable. After all these years and all this time, NASCAR, in its insatiable desire to CONTROL, continues to focus on in the insignificant, as it loses sight of what really matters.

TIRES ?

NASCAR and Goodyear couldn't take the time and make the effort to ensure the proper tires would be available for race day? It is preposterous to even fathom that our precious drivers would be placed at risk for any reason. What is the purpose of testing and retesting and evaluating and reevaluating if not to prepare?

So much attention is paid to roof heights and wing screws and body measurements.
Yet on Sunday, drivers were forced to compete with crumbling, desintigrating rubber underneath them. The Indy Race was a major screw up!

NASCAR doesn't get it!

The old days are gone, and the lemmings have evolved into fans who feel entitled to reasonable returns on their investments, and rightly so.
Along with the global popularity of the sport of racing comes increased and investigative media coverage which exposes flaws and shortcomings instantaneously. NASCAR was embarrassed today, shown in a poor light, and placed in a horrible position. It's credibility will be questioned for years to come, and it will not be surprising if the pontifications of the likes of Brian France and other "Powers that Be" are taken more lightly.

If NASCAR doesn't know about TIRES, what else has it not paid attention to, examined properly, tested appropriately or monitored sufficiently?

Jimmie Johnson kissed the bricks today. Lucky him. If Dale Earnhardt, Jr., Jeff Gordon, Kyle Busch or Carl Edwards and the rest of the field could have performed at their best, any one of them might have won too. Poor Matt Kenseth lost most of the right side of his car because of a blown tire, and Juan Montoya also had a tire issue.

What happened at Indy was not a race. It was hell.

NASCAR,what will you do ? Sink or stay afloat ?

While you are deciding, please notice the large number of passengers grabbing flotation devices and heading for lifeboats........