Chevy Volt [Archive] - Off Camber Forums

datachicane

07-29-08, 05:11 PM

it's more efficient to use combustion at the plant than under the hood.

Gotta disagree with you there (and I'm a fan of the technology- I've been commuting to work by gearhead-geek electric vehicle for over five years now).

Fossil fuel - refining losses - drivetrain losses = power to the road.
vs.
Fossil fuel - refining losses - generation losses - transmission losses - drivetrain losses = power to the road.

Keep in mind that the vast majority of electricity produced in this country is via fossil fuel combustion (and that more fossil fuels go to electric generation than automobiles, for that matter). It's not cool or sexy, but it's tough to beat the efficiency of a modern 4-stroke gasoline engine, let alone diesel.

Don't even get me started on the nuke option. Those who are philosophically opposed to government handouts may want to think about just who's had to subsidize construction and operation of every fission generator that's ever existed on the planet- not good stuff if you're a fan of market forces and all that. If we're OK with huge energy subsidies, why not a solar plan like this one (http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=a-solar-grand-plan) discussed in Scientific American back in December? That would seem to be a better long-term investment for my tax dollars.

Like I said, I'm a big fan of the technology, but let's not kid ourselves about the efficiency. Given a non-fossil fuel source, things might be different, but that's not exactly around the corner...

Ankf00

07-29-08, 06:12 PM

your gasoline production flow doesn't account for distribution & transportation.

the electric production flow is not indicative due to the small percentage of US power derived from petroleum, orders of magnitude difference. NG & coal by far, which require far less processing and don't require distribution to an intermediary as centralized as a refinery. Just b/c they're fossil fuels doesn't mean they're going through half as intensive a process as generating fuel oil and such. There's generally 8% transmission loss, but co-generative gas-turbine systems are far more efficient with power generation than an ICE.

http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/epa/epat1p1.html

Insomniac

07-29-08, 09:49 PM

is it really beneficial to get great gas mileage if you have to pay 40k for a non luxury car?

why not just buy a 20k car and spend 5-10k more in gas over its lifespan than with the volt?

If your bottom line is the total cost to operate, it's not worth it. If you factor in other things, depending on how you value those things it may be worth it.

It's a start though. If people find value in it, perhaps costs will go down. I think battery technology has to make a pretty big leap first though.

Insomniac

07-29-08, 09:59 PM

Keep in mind that the vast majority of electricity produced in this country is via fossil fuel combustion (and that more fossil fuels go to electric generation than automobiles, for that matter). It's not cool or sexy, but it's tough to beat the efficiency of a modern 4-stroke gasoline engine, let alone diesel.

I know you said fossil fuels, but don't we have plenty of natural gas and coal here in the U.S.? 40% of the U.S.'s daily oil consumption is just for fuel for passenger vehicles.

datachicane

07-30-08, 12:54 AM

your gasoline production flow doesn't account for distribution & transportation.
True, but those losses are comparatively trivial, particularly when compared to transmission losses.

Just b/c they're fossil fuels doesn't mean they're going through half as intensive a process as generating fuel oil and such. There's generally 8% transmission loss, but co-generative gas-turbine systems are far more efficient with power generation than an ICE.

http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/epa/epat1p1.html

If the output of the turbine went straight to the road, you'd be correct, but you still must account for not only transmission losses, but losses inherent in storing and retrieving electricity in your batteries, as well as losses in the motor itself. Factor in the difference in energy density between even the best batteries and a gallon of gasoline- physics sez lugging around that considerable extra weight isn't free- and it's not much of a match. Like I said, I'm a fan of the technology, and I'd like nothing better than to find a way to rationalize my fandom while I buzz around town, but unless you've got a kick-ass PV array on your roof it's hard to make that pencil out.

There could be an argument that the removal of the source of pollution from city centers to outlying areas would be adequate justification, but since most electricity in the States comes from the very dirtiest of fossil fuels that's a tough case to make. Twenty years from now the case may be very different, should we find other less-portable means of electric generation.

chop456

07-30-08, 01:01 AM

Biodiesel-powered hybrid.

There. If I say it enough, it'll come true. :tony:

datachicane

07-30-08, 02:09 AM

I know you said fossil fuels, but don't we have plenty of natural gas and coal here in the U.S.? 40% of the U.S.'s daily oil consumption is just for fuel for passenger vehicles.

Yeah, but I'm not certain what you're getting at. If it's imported oil vs. domestic coal and gas that you have a problem with, keep in mind that's purely an economic issue, not a supply issue. We import oil for precisely the same reason small-town Americans shop at Wal*Mart, shortsighted though we may be.

If I could find a Li-Ion Heinkel Kabine, I'd buy it in a heartbeat, efficient or not. :tony:

Stu

07-30-08, 07:55 AM

If your bottom line is the total cost to operate, it's not worth it. If you factor in other things, depending on how you value those things it may be worth it.

you're right, i forgot the value of stupidity.

emjaya

07-30-08, 08:44 AM

If I could find a Li-Ion Heinkel Kabine, I'd buy it in a heartbeat, efficient or not. :tony:

I can get you a Toyota Echo (http://www.electric-echo.com/) with lead acid. :)

O/T: I always wanted to get a Messerschmitt KR200 and stick a big single or a v-twin in it. Ok, so, I'm a hot rodder. :gomer:

Gangrel

07-30-08, 09:19 AM

If your bottom line is the total cost to operate, it's not worth it. If you factor in other things, depending on how you value those things it may be worth it.

It's a start though. If people find value in it, perhaps costs will go down. I think battery technology has to make a pretty big leap first though.

Funny how the folks talking about values and the environment never mention anything about the damage caused by the manufacture and destruction of all those batteries. Internal combustion car has one. Hybrids have around 8! :eek: I haven't seen the Volt's system up close an personal, but I have heard it is just plain scary!

Also, isn't the Volt the car that has the batteries sitting inside the passenger compartment between the driver and passenger seat? So, what happens when one of those battery packs has a meltdown?

Insomniac

07-30-08, 09:31 AM

you're right, i forgot the value of stupidity.

What's the difference between buying a luxury vehicle and a 100% electric vehicle?

Insomniac

07-30-08, 09:34 AM

Yeah, but I'm not certain what you're getting at. If it's imported oil vs. domestic coal and gas that you have a problem with, keep in mind that's purely an economic issue, not a supply issue. We import oil for precisely the same reason small-town Americans shop at Wal*Mart, shortsighted though we may be.

If I could find a Li-Ion Heinkel Kabine, I'd buy it in a heartbeat, efficient or not. :tony:

One of the reasons to get off oil is national security. We get cut off, we're beyond screwed. That was my main point. Even if the pollution ends up being the same by reducing gas consumption and increasing power plant output. That was all I was getting at. :)

Stu

07-30-08, 10:04 AM

What's the difference between buying a luxury vehicle and a 100% electric vehicle?

the luxury part of the car.

opinionated ow

07-30-08, 10:09 AM

Why on earth would you want to buy an electric car?

Ankf00

07-30-08, 10:50 AM

Funny how the folks talking about values and the environment never mention anything about the damage caused by the manufacture and destruction of all those batteries. Internal combustion car has one. Hybrids have around 8! :eek: I haven't seen the Volt's system up close an personal, but I have heard it is just plain scary!

Also, isn't the Volt the car that has the batteries sitting inside the passenger compartment between the driver and passenger seat? So, what happens when one of those battery packs has a meltdown?

batteries aren't just supposed to get tossed in the trash heap

ChampcarShark

07-30-08, 12:09 PM

batteries aren't just supposed to get tossed in the trash heap

It is better to make a bonfire and toss them in. Then watch out for the fireworks.

Seriously, dispose of them properly in a recycle container or hazardous waste.

Insomniac

07-30-08, 01:13 PM

the luxury part of the car.

OK, so stupidity only extends to the person who buys a vehicle running on alternate fuel that isn't cheaper than gas. But in no way extends to anyone who pays more for a car with features that are nowhere close to their actual cost. I get it. Value can only be placed on leather seats, horsepower and nameplates. Otherwise, you're an idiot.

Ankf00

07-30-08, 01:31 PM

True, but those losses are comparatively trivial, particularly when compared to transmission losses.

refining & distribution inputs are anything but trivial when compared to 8 point transmission losses from plants running coal & NG, which is the far majority of US plants.

If the output of the turbine went straight to the road, you'd be correct, but you still must account for not only transmission losses, but losses inherent in storing and retrieving electricity in your batteries, as well as losses in the motor itself. Factor in the difference in energy density between even the best batteries and a gallon of gasoline- physics sez lugging around that considerable extra weight isn't free- and it's not much of a match. Like I said, I'm a fan of the technology, and I'd like nothing better than to find a way to rationalize my fandom while I buzz around town, but unless you've got a kick-ass PV array on your roof it's hard to make that pencil out.

There could be an argument that the removal of the source of pollution from city centers to outlying areas would be adequate justification, but since most electricity in the States comes from the very dirtiest of fossil fuels that's a tough case to make. Twenty years from now the case may be very different, should we find other less-portable means of electric generation.

you're arguing something completely different from me. i'm arguing an efficient use of capital chasing limited resources resulting in greatest possible economic production by our country, $$$, not enivironmental intent. 400bbl of NG in the western/central gulf alone, more coal than we know what to do with (and gasification being mroe commercially feasible helps w/ NIMBY effect but that's just an expense). Many areas are decentralizing their power production (TXU building 11 new plants for northtex/DFW alone), and more and more solar/wind farms are covering the sparsely populated intermountain west ($5B new transmission corridor being set up to westtex for all the windfarms there, which are numerous). Aviation, trucking, chemicals, etc. then benefit from the decreased domestic pressure on crude supply. All of this, of course, depends on the economic feasibility of bringing that change around, but the future economic benefits are there to be realized if we get to that point.

OK, so stupidity only extends to the person who buys a vehicle running on alternate fuel that isn't cheaper than gas. But in no way extends to anyone who pays more for a car with features that are nowhere close to their actual cost. I get it. Value can only be placed on leather seats, horsepower and nameplates. Otherwise, you're an idiot.

this.

Gangrel

07-30-08, 02:03 PM

batteries aren't just supposed to get tossed in the trash heap

The harm of the batteries begins with the mining process to make the batteries. The disposal is but one part of the damage. Just do a search on nickel mining.

Also, so they get disposed of through HazMat or recycled...doesn't change the fact that this stuff is out there. It will very likely cause a problem at some point, regardless of the disposal process.

Ankf00

07-30-08, 02:06 PM

Also, so they get disposed of through HazMat or recycled...doesn't change the fact that this stuff is out there. It will very likely cause a problem at some point, regardless of the disposal process.

as misplaced a concern as "nuclear plant? OMG!!"

yes, mining is dirty business, but how is nickel mining that much more toxic than the process that produces an engine block and lubricant?

Stu

07-30-08, 02:27 PM

OK, so stupidity only extends to the person who buys a vehicle running on alternate fuel that isn't cheaper than gas. But in no way extends to anyone who pays more for a car with features that are nowhere close to their actual cost. I get it. Value can only be placed on leather seats, horsepower and nameplates. Otherwise, you're an idiot.

i never said purchasing a luxury car wasnt stupid, but at least you get some better features out of it. bottom line is, you buy this car in order to save money at the pump, but you do so by paying more at the dealership. how does that make any sense.

name a good reason for an individual to buy this car.

Insomniac

07-30-08, 02:43 PM

The harm of the batteries begins with the mining process to make the batteries. The disposal is but one part of the damage. Just do a search on nickel mining.

Also, so they get disposed of through HazMat or recycled...doesn't change the fact that this stuff is out there. It will very likely cause a problem at some point, regardless of the disposal process.

I can't find the Toyota release, but wasn't this proved a lie? They buy a tiny minuscule of the nickel that is mined there and that all the environmental damage was done in the 1970s and prior using really bad mining techniques not in use now. Nickel for batteries amounts to nothing compared to all the other things it is used for.

oddlycalm

07-30-08, 02:44 PM

Why on earth would you want to buy an electric car?
Simple; in an urban environment they work better. Around 90% of all our car trips are less tha 3 miles round trip and 99% are less than 15miles round trip. A gasoline engine never gets warm on most of our car trips. The heater is useless because the engine isn't warm. In the city a car the size of a Mini Cooper parks a lot easier.

For longer trips the choice is to a) own a 2nd car, b) rent a car, or c) become a member of a shared car service like ZipCar (http://www.zipcar.com/webpdx/?crcat=ppc&crsource=gsnpdx&crkw=flexcar&engine=google&keyword=flexcar) and pay only for the miles you drive. We own a 2nd car. I'm a buyer when a good electric or plug-in hybrid arrives.

One or more companies are going to produce an great car for the urban market and make a lot of money doing it. If GM can't figure out how to do it economically then it'll be their loss.

oc

Insomniac

07-30-08, 02:51 PM

i never said purchasing a luxury car wasnt stupid, but at least you get some better features out of it. bottom line is, you buy this car in order to save money at the pump, but you do so by paying more at the dealership. how does that make any sense.

name a good reason for an individual to buy this car.

But that's my point. Your bottom line is that the car is to save money at the pump. Other people have different ways to value things. It's your right to call them stupid, but many, many people place a different value on many, many things that you or I wouldn't place.

So it may be a good reason for someone, but not for you.

Maybe they like the quieter car. Maybe they want to brag about it. Maybe they're gadget freaks. Maybe it's Jay Leno and he just likes to own all kinds of cars. Maybe they like how it looks. There can be tons of reasons. You may not like any of them, but people make decisions like that no matter what car they buy.

Stu

07-30-08, 03:50 PM

But that's my point. Your bottom line is that the car is to save money at the pump. Other people have different ways to value things. It's your right to call them stupid, but many, many people place a different value on many, many things that you or I wouldn't place.

So it may be a good reason for someone, but not for you.

Maybe they like the quieter car. Maybe they want to brag about it. Maybe they're gadget freaks. Maybe it's Jay Leno and he just likes to own all kinds of cars. Maybe they like how it looks. There can be tons of reasons. You may not like any of them, but people make decisions like that no matter what car they buy.

so your basis is that people make major financial decisions based on emotion? great, thats nothing new and yes, thats what i would call stupid.

im not saying GM is dumb for building this car, its one of the few good ideas they've had. they are going to take full advantage of the stupid hippies out there who either think they are helping the environment or believe they are saving money.

Insomniac

07-30-08, 04:13 PM

so your basis is that people make major financial decisions based on emotion? great, thats nothing new and yes, thats what i would call stupid.

im not saying GM is dumb for building this car, its one of the few good ideas they've had. they are going to take full advantage of the stupid hippies out there who either think they are helping the environment or believe they are saving money.

That's not my basis, that's reality. Otherwise, why would there be more than a small handful of car models?

You come out and say people who buy this car are stupid based on your view point. You are the one who asked why anyone would buy it if the net cost to operate vs. a gas vehicle was higher. I gave you plenty of reasons for which your response was only the stupid would buy it. You can say that about practically every purchase that goes beyond the minimum purpose (for a car, point A to point B) and anything that isn't a necessity in life. Is it so difficult to understand people have different motivations for their purchases? It doesn't make them stupid, or a hippie, or whatever other label you want to place on them.

Stu

07-30-08, 04:42 PM

That's not my basis, that's reality.

I know, thats why I said, "thats nothing new"

You come out and say people who buy this car are stupid based on your view point.

They are.

You are the one who asked why anyone would buy it if the net cost to operate vs. a gas vehicle was higher.

I asked for a good reason.

I gave you plenty of reasons for which your response was only the stupid would buy it.

You think dropping 40k to "brag" is smart?

You can say that about practically every purchase that goes beyond the minimum purpose (for a car, point A to point B) and anything that isn't a necessity in life.

Theres a difference between owning something functional, like lets say a car with AWD, vs. buying a car because it gives them bragging rights over their neighbor.

Is it so difficult to understand people have different motivations for their purchases?

No. I was a marketing major, I perfectly understand that there are a lot of bad decisions made out there when it comes to purchasing an item. Just because it's "their decision" doesn't make it the "smart decision"

It doesn't make them stupid, or a hippie, or whatever other label you want to place on them.

Yes it does.

oddlycalm

07-30-08, 05:52 PM

they are going to take full advantage of the stupid hippies out there who either think they are helping the environment or believe they are saving money.
You're throwing derision and labels around on a topic you clearly don't know a thing about. GM may well make a mess out of the Volt, but not for the reasons you think. An electric Mini Cooper would be my idea of a great urban car. GM will probably make it too big and too cheesy and nobody will buy one

I want an electric car or a plug-in hybrid for operational reasons pure and simple. Internal combustion engines suck for the kind of short trips we make. They never get fully warned up, the heat doesn't come on in the winter, you have all the fumes from the fuel-rich cold idle fuel map and small size vehicles are easier to park in urban areas. Finally, in the city gas stations aren't on every corner and the one that do exist are busy. Not having to visit one, or having to visit one a lot less, would be just fine with me.

BTW, the "stupid hippies" that run some of the towns in the ex-burbs around here are making golf carts legal inside their city limits for all the reasons I posted above. Why start up a car to go 10 blocks and come back with some groceries or take a kid to school?

oc

Ankf00

07-30-08, 05:56 PM

They are.

I asked for a good reason.

You think dropping 40k to "brag" is smart?

you mean like someone who used to have an HDTV but didn't have a cable package to go along with it? sounds like a personal choice regarding disposable income.

cameraman

07-30-08, 06:16 PM

I want an electric car or a plug-in hybrid for operational reasons pure and simple.

oc

While you are at it you can toss in some very valid local reasons to want the electrics. Red burn days in mountain valley cities. The air quality goes straight to extremely unhealthy around here when high pressure systems camp out over the valleys. The power plants are not in the valleys and the vast majority of the pollution in town comes from tail pipes. If people had access to electric cars they would move to point source of the pollution out of the valley where everyone lives.

Insomniac

07-30-08, 07:07 PM

I asked for a good reason.

You're asking for a reason good enough for you. It's not my job to justify another person's purchasing decision to you.

You think dropping 40k to "brag" is smart?

Do I? No. Do other people? Yes.

Theres a difference between owning something functional, like lets say a car with AWD, vs. buying a car because it gives them bragging rights over their neighbor.

That's why I said a small handful of cars. But where do you draw the line? Who really needs AWD. I used to live in WV, now I'm in KS. It snows a couple times a year. I still have my Subaru Legacy wagon. By your definition of stupid: First I bought the car brand new. Second I got some options on it. Third I didn't get a cheaper AWD car. Fourth, now I don't even need the AWD. This can go on and on. If you want to call everyone stupid, or whatever, who doesn't see everything your way, you're free to, but I'm going to point it out.

No. I was a marketing major, I perfectly understand that there are a lot of bad decisions made out there when it comes to purchasing an item. Just because it's "their decision" doesn't make it the "smart decision"

Again, in the world according to you.

oddlycalm

07-30-08, 08:55 PM

While you are at it you can toss in some very valid local reasons to want the electrics. Red burn days in mountain valley cities. The air quality goes straight to extremely unhealthy around here when high pressure systems camp out over the valleys. The power plants are not in the valleys and the vast majority of the pollution in town comes from tail pipes. If people had access to electric cars they would move to point source of the pollution out of the valley where everyone lives.

Yep, the dread inversion layer. The fewer engines running the better in those conditions. It's true that the power plants are all a long way from the valleys.

I remember driving the 50 miles down to Boise and we would hit the layer when were were 15 miles out. One winter it lasted month. Probably less than 25% of the current population back then and the air got bad.

oc

datachicane

07-31-08, 12:07 AM

Honestly, Stu, why the hate?

Do you get as worked up by big SUVs hauling 98lb soccer moms back to the store for an eighth-ounce bottle of vanilla? How about guys like my brother-in-law, who for years has insisted on driving 1-ton Ford duallies, preferably crew cabs, on his 100 mile daily freeway commute despite the fact that he's never hauled or towed anything bigger than a sack lunch? I'm the first to point out the lack of an efficiency case for electric vehicles, but that's a drop in the bucket compared to these folks.

Face it, 98% of all vehicle sales are driven by ego and fashion- otherwise, there'd be no market for anything besides old Mercedes 240Ds and hose-out International pickups, and Harley-Davidson would have joined Indian decades ago. I chose electric because I can park it in my cubicle at work, haul several in the trunks of cars I care about to the track without fear of persistent gas stink, and 100% torque at zero RPM feels pretty damn cool.

datachicane

07-31-08, 12:08 AM

O/T: I always wanted to get a Messerschmitt KR200 and stick a big single or a v-twin in it. Ok, so, I'm a hot rodder. :gomer:

A KR200 would be cool, but I want a TG500 with a Hayabusa. :cool:

chop456

07-31-08, 02:23 AM

An electric Mini Cooper would be my idea of a great urban car.

Maybe you already saw this:

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080723/BUSINESS01/807230381

Mini will have electrically powered versions of its subcompact on the road in the hands of "real customers" in the United States by this time next year, McDowell said.

BMW announced last week that it would ship 500 electric Minis to the United States. The company is still evaluating where to offer the cars and whether to lease or sell them, McDowell said. The company has not revealed any details about the electric vehicle's range, power, charging time, price or other key factors.

Stu

07-31-08, 08:52 AM

you mean like someone who used to have an HDTV but didn't have a cable package to go along with it? sounds like a personal choice regarding disposable income.

HDTV at that time was best received OTA. There weren't 40 HD channels via DirecTV back in 2001.

BTW, OTA is still the best possible picture quality among different HD transmission types. ;)

Stu

07-31-08, 08:55 AM

You're throwing derision and labels around on a topic you clearly don't know a thing about. GM may well make a mess out of the Volt, but not for the reasons you think. An electric Mini Cooper would be my idea of a great urban car. GM will probably make it too big and too cheesy and nobody will buy one

I want an electric car or a plug-in hybrid for operational reasons pure and simple. Internal combustion engines suck for the kind of short trips we make. They never get fully warned up, the heat doesn't come on in the winter, you have all the fumes from the fuel-rich cold idle fuel map and small size vehicles are easier to park in urban areas. Finally, in the city gas stations aren't on every corner and the one that do exist are busy. Not having to visit one, or having to visit one a lot less, would be just fine with me.

BTW, the "stupid hippies" that run some of the towns in the ex-burbs around here are making golf carts legal inside their city limits for all the reasons I posted above. Why start up a car to go 10 blocks and come back with some groceries or take a kid to school?

oc

So what would you do OC, buy a 40k volt or a 2k golf cart? Seems like a golf cart would serve you better. Or maybe GM should do what you are talking about and make a compact car. If this thing is designed for short trips, it doesnt need to be as big as it is or as sporty as it looks. A mini cooper looking car (for a lot less than 40k) would make much more sense than this "sports car"

Btw, how will the electric batteries react in cold weather? Thats a serious question, Im not finding much info via google. Ive seen some articles stating that they are working keeping the batteries warm when not in use, but nothing official. I am also seeing a lot of critics citing that in extreme cold weather, you wont get the mileage out of each charge. Same thing goes with the summer and when you need to run the a/c. So you still have sacrifices.

Stu

07-31-08, 08:56 AM

While you are at it you can toss in some very valid local reasons to want the electrics. Red burn days in mountain valley cities. The air quality goes straight to extremely unhealthy around here when high pressure systems camp out over the valleys. The power plants are not in the valleys and the vast majority of the pollution in town comes from tail pipes. If people had access to electric cars they would move to point source of the pollution out of the valley where everyone lives.

This is all well and good, and will be great when the prices come down, but at 40k not everyone is going to own one.

If they want the idea to take off, the price needs to come down. Otherwise, the whole concept will just be replaced by Hydrogen fuel cells, which GM is also working on.

And yes I do understand the concept of product cycles with early adopters leading the way and prices eventually coming down. But just because you want to be an early adopter doesn't mean you should spend an extra 20k on a car to save 5k in gas. Once prices come down, it will no longer be a dumb idea.

Stu

07-31-08, 09:00 AM

That's why I said a small handful of cars. But where do you draw the line? Who really needs AWD. I used to live in WV, now I'm in KS. It snows a couple times a year. I still have my Subaru Legacy wagon. By your definition of stupid: First I bought the car brand new. Second I got some options on it. Third I didn't get a cheaper AWD car. Fourth, now I don't even need the AWD. This can go on and on. If you want to call everyone stupid, or whatever, who doesn't see everything your way, you're free to, but I'm going to point it out.

More people should drive AWD up here in Cleveland, but they dont. Different features should be used for different climates and conditions.

Heated seats, mirrors, wipers for people up north. Highly tinted windows for people in Nevada, Arizona, New Mexico, Texas, etc. Stuff like this which actually has some sort of benefit.

Stu

07-31-08, 09:13 AM

Do you get as worked up by big SUVs hauling 98lb soccer moms back to the store for an eighth-ounce bottle of vanilla? How about guys like my brother-in-law, who for years has insisted on driving 1-ton Ford duallies, preferably crew cabs, on his 100 mile daily freeway commute despite the fact that he's never hauled or towed anything bigger than a sack lunch? I'm the first to point out the lack of an efficiency case for electric vehicles, but that's a drop in the bucket compared to these folks.

I only get aggravated at people like this when they complain about gas prices. They really have no right because of the decisions they have made.

opinionated ow

07-31-08, 09:36 AM

Stu

07-31-08, 10:12 AM

Check out the videos on youtube of Top Gear with the G-Wiz (I'd link them myself but I'm on dialup and it is too slow for that sort of stuff).

at work youtube blocked. :irked:

datachicane

07-31-08, 10:39 AM

I only get aggravated at people like this when they complain about gas prices. They really have no right because of the decisions they have made.

But right out of the box you're aggravated by folks interested in electrics?
Ooookay... :saywhat:

Ankf00

07-31-08, 11:06 AM

HDTV at that time was best received OTA. There weren't 40 HD channels via DirecTV back in 2001.

BTW, OTA is still the best possible picture quality among different HD transmission types. ;)

a multi-thousand dollar investment for 3-4 channels.

sounds smart. :gomer:

Gangrel

07-31-08, 11:25 AM

as misplaced a concern as "nuclear plant? OMG!!"

I don't know....somehow I don't see used car batteries being put set 5 miles underground into the heart of a mountain, never to be seen or heard from again...

Hey...I don't like unfounded environmentalist claims any more than anyone else...if you can show me some evidence that I am incorrect, I will own up to it. Still won't be drinking the hybrid cool aid, though, because I still believe this whole thing is just a stopgap on the way to alternative fuels. I just find it funny when PETA and Greenpeace wackos self-righteously drive around in their Priuses, complete with their 200 lbs or so of battery acid...

Ankf00

07-31-08, 11:38 AM

Stu

07-31-08, 11:49 AM

But right out of the box you're aggravated by folks interested in electrics?
Ooookay... :saywhat:

Im not aggravated at them. Never said I was. Just said I thought they were making a stupid decision (and that they were hippies ;) ).

opinionated ow

07-31-08, 11:51 AM

because, obviously, anyone in a prius is a greenpeace PETA wacko, because obviously PETAs all about the greentech.

again, the powerplant and lubricants in your car come from somewhere in the ground, and the process for that is no cleaner than the process for the metals in your battery, and unlike nuclear waste in Yucca mountain batteries do get recycled.

but I agree, hybrids are an intermediary short of widespread implementation of biofuels

Biofuels won't take off. You guys are using your corn and putting yourselves and the Mexicans short of food. They are trying to use sugar cane here until they realise that we actually use it and can make more from exporting the sugar...it jus won't happen

Stu

07-31-08, 11:51 AM

a multi-thousand dollar investment for 3-4 channels.

sounds smart. :gomer:

i dont know what you kind of channels you were getting in the boondocks of texas, but we had 5 of the 6 major networks in cleveland plus pbs broadcasting in HD. :thumbup:

DVDs also benefited from the bigger screen size, 16x9, and up-converted resolution.

Ankf00

07-31-08, 12:01 PM

Biofuels won't take off. You guys are using your corn and putting yourselves and the Mexicans short of food. They are trying to use sugar cane here until they realise that we actually use it and can make more from exporting the sugar...it jus won't happen

a) we have enough food
b) the previous 2-3 years were bumper crops of corn, tons upon tons of it rotted away in open air piles b/c all storage capacity was full (this year's rains have caused a shortage)

and most importantly C) corn and cane aren't the only stock for biofuel, and furthermore ethanol is not the only form of biofuel

whether or not they are widely adopted has nothing to do with corn or sugarcane

dando

07-31-08, 12:10 PM

i dont know what you kind of channels you were getting in the boondocks of texas, but we had 5 of the 6 major networks in cleveland plus pbs broadcasting in HD. :thumbup:

There are 4 major broadcast networks plus PBS. The CW, formerly WB, is not a major broadcast network. Not even close.

-Kevin

Stu

07-31-08, 12:34 PM

There are 4 major broadcast networks plus PBS. The CW, formerly WB, is not a major broadcast network. Not even close.

-Kevin

:rolleyes:

ok fine. we had all 4 of the major broadcast networks, pbs, and 1 of the 2 secondary broadcast networks.

Gangrel

07-31-08, 02:11 PM

because, obviously, anyone in a prius is a greenpeace PETA wacko, because obviously PETAs all about the greentech.

Not what I said, but thanks for playing. :rolleyes:

Ankf00

07-31-08, 02:39 PM

your point was something other than "haha, smug greenies with their rolling superfund site?"

Insomniac

07-31-08, 03:44 PM

a) we have enough food
b) the previous 2-3 years were bumper crops of corn, tons upon tons of it rotted away in open air piles b/c all storage capacity was full (this year's rains have caused a shortage)

and most importantly C) corn and cane aren't the only stock for biofuel, and furthermore ethanol is not the only form of biofuel

whether or not they are widely adopted has nothing to do with corn or sugarcane

Don't forget about farm subsidies to keep supply artificially low.

Gangrel

07-31-08, 03:49 PM

your point was something other than "haha, smug greenies with their rolling superfund site?"

Yes, as a matter of fact it was. It was more along the lines of "haha, smug greenie wannabies who care more about the image of greenness than they do about actually being green, and in the process, damage the reputation of everyone who is actually trying to do something good rather than grabbing at headlines."

I have difficulty even carrying on a conversation with people about how bad shark finning is and why coral bleaching is a problem because of the damage those follks have done to the reputation of every conservationist (note: not environmentalist) out there.

Any more questions?

Ankf00

07-31-08, 04:24 PM

Yes, as a matter of fact it was. It was more along the lines of "haha, smug greenie wannabies who care more about the image of greenness than they do about actually being green, and in the process, damage the reputation of everyone who is actually trying to do something good rather than grabbing at headlines."

http://www.hybridcars.com/battery-toxicity.html

Greener Pastures for Car Batteries
The carmakers are waiting in the wings. Toyota and Honda place decals with a toll-free number on their hybrid battery packs. Toyota offers a $200 bounty to ensure that every battery comes back to the company. In a press release, Toyota states, "Every part of the battery, from the precious metals to the plastic, plates, steel case and the wiring, is recycled." Honda collects the battery and transfers it to a preferred recycler to follow their prescribed process: disassembling and sorting the materials; shredding the plastic material; recovering and processing the metal; and neutralizing the alkaline material before sending it to a landfill.

Honda, Toyota and the entire auto industry are pumping millions of dollars into research regarding

there's this this and there's the fact that the next generation of hybrid & EV's will be running on Li-Ion batteries, ideally with nanoconductors aiding the charge/discharge cycle

then there's the fact that nickel isn't a heavy metal and producing it for batteries as opposed to any of its other uses is no worse than producing aluminum for engine blocks, and that's considering how electrically intensive the production process for Al is. just for clarification, they're primary batteries are NiMH, not lead acid, there is not 200 lbs of battery acid being hauled arround.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel_metal_hydride

Most industrial nickel is recycled, due to the relatively easy retrieval of the metal from scrap, and due to its high value.

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/06/02/honda-and-toyota-to-lower-hybrid-battery-replacement-costs/

As hybrid models such as the original Toyota Prius and Honda Insight get older, consumers are beginning to wonder how much it will cost them if the battery eventually fails. It's a reasonable concern as those batteries can be quite expensive to replace. According to an article on Newsweek, though, that once astronomical price is going down. Honda, for example, will be lowering the cost for its hybrid batteries on June 1 from $3,400 to $1,968 for the Insight. The Accord hybrid could still be as much as $2,440. Similarly, Toyota's Prius battery is down to $3,000 from $5,500.

The good news, though, is that the chances of needing to replace the battery in your hybrid is low, even after the warranty coverage is up. Honda says that less than 200 of its hybrid batteries have failed post-warranty, despite over 100,000 vehicles on the road. How about Toyota? Its post-warranty battery replacement rate sits at just 0.003 percent.

Modern hybrid vehicles are designed to minimize the strain on their high-power batteries. Battery management systems have been programmed to only allow a certain amount of the battery's available charge to dissipate, which greatly extends the life of the unit. So, when considering a hybrid vehicle, perhaps the battery shouldn't be too much of a deterrent
for clarification: Toyota's warranty is something like 8yr/100K and Honda's is 8yr/80K or 10K/150K depending on state of sale.

environmental disasters they are not.

oddlycalm

07-31-08, 04:29 PM

Maybe you already saw this:

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080723/BUSINESS01/807230381
Yeah, thanks though. We are at the top of the list for our local dealer so if they arrive we should get one.

oc

oddlycalm

07-31-08, 04:44 PM

So what would you do OC, buy a 40k volt or a 2k golf cart? Seems like a golf cart would serve you better. Or maybe GM should do what you are talking about and make a compact car. If this thing is designed for short trips, it doesnt need to be as big as it is or as sporty as it looks. A mini cooper looking car (for a lot less than 40k) would make much more sense than this "sports car"

Btw, how will the electric batteries react in cold weather? Thats a serious question, Im not finding much info via google. Ive seen some articles stating that they are working keeping the batteries warm when not in use, but nothing official. I am also seeing a lot of critics citing that in extreme cold weather, you wont get the mileage out of each charge. Same thing goes with the summer and when you need to run the a/c. So you still have sacrifices.

Golf carts will never be legal in Portland and the Volt is too big with too much wasted space for what we would want regardless of the price. Not sure who GM thinks thinks the buyer will be for the Volt or who they thing the competition will be, but it's not what I would do.

We don't often get really cold weather here and a most of our trips are 20 blocks or less so the battery limitations don't really matter. We also have a heated garage. I can go clear across town and back in less than 15 miles and do that less than once a month. If we go farther we have other wheels.

IMO the best configuration for people who commute significant distances would be an efficient turbo-diesel, preferably under 3000lbs. With pre-injection making them quieter and with soot filters in the exhaust oil burners seem ready for prime time yet nobody is doing it in a smart way.

oc

High Sided

07-31-08, 04:52 PM

Cool :thumbup::cool:
lgTcdfkihE4

Ankf00

07-31-08, 05:18 PM

Yeah, thanks though. We are at the top of the list for our local dealer so if they arrive we should get one.

oc
snazzy...

Mini will add 2,000 to 3,000 vehicles to the allotment its U.S. dealers get this year, he said. Sales for the brand, which BMW owns, soared 33.9%, to 26,400 cars for the first half of 2008 in the United States.

Minis have been selling in a mere four days on the lot, and the company is virtually out of inventory in the United States, McDowell said.

Mini will have electrically powered versions of its subcompact on the road in the hands of "real customers" in the United States by this time next year, McDowell said.

IMO the best configuration for people who commute significant distances would be an efficient turbo-diesel, preferably under 3000lbs. With pre-injection making them quieter and with soot filters in the exhaust oil burners seem ready for prime time yet nobody is doing it in a smart way.

oc

'09 Jetta TDi w/ 30/41mpg & $1300 income tax credit. Supposedly 70mpg Golf TDi hybrid for '09.5 or '10 w/ regenerative brake & DSG tranny. Possibly in A3 and Tiguan as well (which talk about a waste, 18/25mpg in that new SUV dealie, wtf?!)

not too shabby.

oddlycalm

07-31-08, 08:35 PM

'09 Jetta TDi w/ 30/41mpg & $1300 income tax credit. Supposedly 70mpg Golf TDi hybrid for '09.5 or '10 w/ regenerative brake & DSG tranny. Possibly in A3 and Tiguan as well (which talk about a waste, 18/25mpg in that new SUV dealie, wtf?!)

not too shabby.
Sound good. There's no doubt that a turbo diesel hybrid would yield the best mileage using current technology. Whoever nails it first stands to make some money. A commute friendly car capable of 70mpg would do some serious business. The Euros have lot of diesel experience and it's gonna take everyone else some time to catch up.

oc

JLMannin

07-31-08, 10:18 PM

name a good reason for an individual to buy this car.

The individual wants to buy one.

JLMannin

07-31-08, 10:26 PM

at work youtube blocked. :irked:

Well, I guess you are stupid for choosing to work for an employer that blocks YouTube, when, obviously, access to YouTube at work is important to you.

Stu

08-01-08, 07:43 PM

Well, I guess you are stupid for choosing to work for an employer that blocks YouTube, when, obviously, access to YouTube at work is important to you.

nah, just too lazy to log onto youtube on my phone. :\

chop456

08-07-08, 01:45 AM

Sound good. There's no doubt that a turbo diesel hybrid would yield the best mileage using current technology. Whoever nails it first stands to make some money. A commute friendly car capable of 70mpg would do some serious business. The Euros have lot of diesel experience and it's gonna take everyone else some time to catch up.

oc

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/carreviews/firstdrives/225891/vw-golf-twin-drive.html

There are only 20 Twin Drive prototypes in existence, but we got behind the wheel to give you the definitive verdict on VW’s clean, green derv sipper. And sip diesel it does. Bosses say this Golf returns 113mpg – that’s more than twice what a 2.0-litre TDI can muster!

The unbelievable economy comes from the blend of a frugal 1.5-litre common-rail diesel and three electric motors: one in the bonnet next to the engine and one in each of the back wheels.

When travelling at speeds of up to 31mph, the Golf takes its power from the electric motors solely. But only if driven gently – the diesel motor will take over if the accelerator is pressed hard, providing a slug of extra power.

Beyond 31mph, the oil-burner kicks in as a matter of course, charging the battery and driving the car. At motorway speeds, the diesel provides the go.

Available in 2019, no doubt. :tony:

Ankf00

08-07-08, 11:54 AM

me rikey.

Insomniac

08-07-08, 01:28 PM

Available in 2019, no doubt. :tony:

Close, they say 2015.

Engine: 1.5-litre 4cyl TDI diesel, plus three electric motors
Power: 175bhp
Weight: 1,700kg
0-62mph: 9.9 seconds
Top speed: 106mph
Economy: 113mpg
Equipment: Air-conditioning, 16-inch alloy wheels, satellite navigation, dual-zone climate control, automatic gearbox
On sale: 2015

I wonder what the highway MPG will be?

sadams

08-07-08, 01:58 PM

Why bother, my '04 Jetta TDI get a consistent 52 mpg in highway travel 90 miles daily. Simple easy proven technology.

cameraman

08-07-08, 02:18 PM

Why bother, my '04 Jetta TDI get a consistent 52 mpg in highway travel 90 miles daily. Simple easy proven technology.

Try to buy a new one:shakehead

Every single car in the VW line is available with a diesel in Europe, here the only Jetta is available except you can't actually get one.:flame:

Ankf00

08-07-08, 02:32 PM

sis & BiL bought a used TDi Golf in '05 in Houston, moved back to SF in '07 and sold it for $4K profit

oddlycalm

08-07-08, 08:11 PM

Available in 2019, no doubt. :tony:
Exactly. It's easy to see what the most effective strategies are, but nobody is doing them commercially.

Can you imagine combining that drivetrain with larger vehicle made from composites and weighing 2500lbs or less? People could have the large cars they want and they would get 100+mpg.

The fact is that somebody will do it, and probably before 2015 because none of it requires new technology. They will give their cash register a mighty ring when they do and the message will be clear to the others. Never underestimate greed as an incentive.

oc

Methanolandbrats

08-07-08, 09:49 PM

You can lay the blame for the current lack of diesel cars in the USA at the feet of CARB and the fact that ultra low sulphur diesel fuel was only recently mandated in the United States. In the late 90s there were plenty of diesel cars that could have been sold in the USA, but they would not run on the rotgut fuel and even if they could have, the enviro nazis got them banned. :mad: We're 15-20 years behind.

emjaya

08-07-08, 10:25 PM

Nissan: Electric car by 2010 (http://news.smh.com.au/technology/nissan-motor-unveils-new-prototype-electric-car-20080807-3ra0.html).

Insomniac

09-08-08, 02:19 PM

Well, they found a way to ruin it.

Concept:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/41/Chevrolet-Volt-DC.jpg/800px-Chevrolet-Volt-DC.jpg
http://www.thetorquereport.com/voltfront2.jpg

Production:
http://image.automobilemag.com/f/green/first-official-photos-of-2010-chevrolet-volt/10904628+cr1+re0+ar1/2010-chevrolet-volt.jpg
http://image.automobilemag.com/f/green/first-official-photos-of-2010-chevrolet-volt/10904631+cr1+re0+ar1/2010-chevrolet-volt.jpg

Methanolandbrats

09-08-08, 02:30 PM

I can't understand why GM is going out of business :confused:

Gnam

09-08-08, 03:31 PM

Can you imagine combining that drivetrain with larger vehicle made from composites and weighing 2500lbs or less? People could have the large cars they want and they would get 100+mpg.
With steel prices climbing, will composite bodies soon be feasible for production? When can I get a carbon fiber minivan? :p

oddlycalm

09-08-08, 04:21 PM

With steel prices climbing, will composite bodies soon be feasible for production? When can I get a carbon fiber minivan? :p
My best guess is somewhere between never and a very long time. The three domestic auto companies are now asking the feds to guarantee loans for money so they can begin to figure out the answer to your question. Translation: your CF minivan ain't on the way and the price of steel has naught to do with it.

It all boils down to a discussion that will never take place; do you want to convert our vehicle fleet to be super-efficient and consume 20% of the oil it currently does, or do you want to spend many times that amount securing oil producing regions with our military for the indeterminate future? Since our auto industry is busy bleeding out from 40yrs of cumulative self-inflicted wounds I'm guessing the defense industry would be able to make a pretty good case for their solution. That's if it was a question anybody ever asked at all.

oc

Sean Malone

09-08-08, 04:22 PM

With steel prices climbing, will composite bodies soon be feasible for production? When can I get a carbon fiber minivan? :p

I remember an article in Car and Driver 5 or so years ago, about a Chrysler prototype made from recycled plastic. The cool aspect of the body panels is that they were removed easily and different variations could be applied to suit the taste of the owner. No painting required as the color is molded into the plastic. If a piece breaks, it gets recycled. Never saw anything else about it.

Edit : Wow, actually it was 10 years ago and Plymouth is no more (doh!) Guess the idea got lost in the shutdown.

Here's a page about the prototype. I think it's cool.

Link (http://www.allpar.com/cars/concepts/pronto-spyder.html)

http://img386.imageshack.us/img386/3959/prontospyderplymouthqe1.jpg

http://img386.imageshack.us/img386/1892/prontobackto5.jpg

http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/7597/prontospydergaugesfv6.jpg

Ankf00

09-08-08, 04:44 PM

replete with the classic suck ass chrysler am/fm/cd unit, only this time in flaming red!

Sean Malone

09-08-08, 08:16 PM

replete with the classic suck ass chrysler am/fm/cd unit, only this time in flaming red!

LOL, that was the first thing I noticed too. But if they would have released this car in $18K they wouldn't have been able to make enough of them.

dando

09-08-08, 08:20 PM

More Detroit stupidity. :saywhat:

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/08_37/b4099060491065.htm?chan=rss_topStories_ssi_5

If ever there was a car made for the times, this would seem to be it: a sporty subcompact that seats five, offers a navigation system, and gets a whopping 65 miles to the gallon. Oh yes, and the car is made by Ford Motor (F), known widely for lumbering gas hogs.

Ford's 2009 Fiesta ECOnetic goes on sale in November. But here's the catch: Despite the car's potential to transform Ford's image and help it compete with Toyota Motor (TM) and Honda Motor (HMC) in its home market, the company will sell the little fuel sipper only in Europe. "We know it's an awesome vehicle," says Ford America President Mark Fields. "But there are business reasons why we can't sell it in the U.S." The main one: The Fiesta ECOnetic runs on diesel.

:shakehead

-Kevin

nrc

09-08-08, 08:42 PM

More Detroit stupidity. :saywhat:

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/08_37/b4099060491065.htm?chan=rss_topStories_ssi_5

Just to be clear - they will (finally) be bringing the Fiesta back to the states. Evidently it's just the diesel that won't make it. MINI is in the same boat in the class right now. Unfortunately low volume power trains are really hard to justify given the costs of certifying each powertrain.

Insomniac

09-08-08, 08:52 PM

More Detroit stupidity. :saywhat:

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/08_37/b4099060491065.htm?chan=rss_topStories_ssi_5

:shakehead

-Kevin

:confused: I could see crash standards, but diesel. WTH.

dando

09-08-08, 09:02 PM

Just to be clear - they will (finally) be bringing the Fiesta back to the states. Evidently it's just the diesel that won't make it.

Which is clear in the article...but considering how f'ed up GM and Ford are right now, they need to be making some bets right now, and 65 mpg would get some serious attention diesel or not. Plus, it's a sweet looking ride. :(

-Kevin

Insomniac

09-08-08, 09:24 PM

Which is clear in the article...but considering how f'ed up GM and Ford are right now, they need to be making some bets right now, and 65 mpg would get some serious attention diesel or not. Plus, it's a sweet looking ride. :(

-Kevin

Import a few hundred to start at least. See if you can move them instead of assuming. You're losing so much money as it is, you can afford to eat a little of the cost to find out.

datachicane

09-08-08, 11:35 PM

Translation: We believe they may take some tiny fraction of market share away from our hyper-markup geegaw-encrusted truck-based vehicles, thereby costing us $. We're betting the bank that the market for hyper-markup geegaw-encrusted truck-based vehicles rebounds soon, 'cuz we make a boatload more margin on those pigs than the gross on some teeny Eurowagon.

devilmaster

09-08-08, 11:49 PM

LOL, that was the first thing I noticed too. But if they would have released this car in $18K they wouldn't have been able to make enough of them.

As i was reading the thread and saw the dash photo thats the first thing I saw too.

I look at the IP and the steering wheel and it vaguely reminds me of my grandfather's 56 T-bird. Then I look at the radio and climate control and it reminds me of a mid 80's tempo. :shakehead

If it was 10 years ago for this pronto spyder, then they should dust it off and figure out how to fast track it now - cause to me that body styling is in right now... I could see that car selling well(with a completely redone interior of course)

datachicane

09-09-08, 12:28 AM

If it was 10 years ago for this pronto spyder, then they should dust it off and figure out how to fast track it now - cause to me that body styling is in right now... I could see that car selling well(with a completely redone interior of course)

I liked the car when they first showed it, other than the dopey name (seems like Mopar has a whole string of various-niched concept cars saddled with the name 'pronto', IIRC). Much, much, cooler and much less likely to ever see production was the '92 Ford Ghia Focus- anybody else remember that one?
http://blog.viacelli.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/09/92ghia_focus_2.jpg
http://www.conceptcars.it/carrozzieri1/ghia/focus3.jpghttp://files.conceptcarz.com/img/Ghia/ghia_focus_silver_02.jpghttp://blog.viacelli.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/09/92ghia_focus_1.jpg