Middle East as clown car...

[Gnam]

How many conflicts can you fit inside?

Pretty convenient of Russia and Georgia to throw down in a sandbox we're already rockin'. Not to start any rumors, but NATO's Incirlik Airbase in Turkey is only 600mi from Tbilisi, Georgia, and the range of a combat ready F15 is 1200mi.

No Fly Zone anyone? What's the worst that could happen? :gomer:

[eiregosod]

Russia n Georgia have been going at it for a long time.

Keep your eye on Azerbaijan, they be cuttin off the oils :tony:

[nrc]

Funny how new Russia looks a lot like old Russia.

Looks like the Georgians have been pushed out. Not a good sign given their U.S. training, but it's really starting to smell like the Russians are using their "starched earth" tactics from Chechnya and counting on being able point the finger at Georgia.


Before the woman could give her name, police at the camp interrupted the interview. Two foreign reporters were later fined for working without special permission in a restricted border zone.

Russian authorities have detained and questioned a number of journalists working in the region. They have focused on those working for the Western news media — an apparent sign of rising tensions over the conflict in South Ossetia, a region that broke away from Georgian rule in the early 1990s and developed close ties to Russia.
http://www.abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=5551847

Georgia clearly didn't expect this kind of response from Russia. Big mistake given that Russia has been aching to reassert itself as a world power and stinging from Georgia's courtship with NATO.

But Russia is only going to sew the seeds of it's own problem. If South Ossetia ends up independent or part of Russia (because there's probably no going back now), it's only a matter of time before North and South Ossetia start thinking about a unified Ossetia.

[Gnam]

Funny how new Russia looks a lot like old Russia.


from the Daily Mail (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1043185/The-Pipeline-War-Russian-bear-goes-Wests-jugular.html)
In Beijing, Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin was seen to approach President Bush in the Olympic stadium, where they were attending the opening ceremony.

The Australian Prime Minister Kevin Rudd said he witnessed a heated discussion between the two leaders.

‘The President and Mr Putin were in an animated conversation two seats in front of us and I imagine they had a few things on their agenda,’ he said.
Putin left Beijing shortly after the opening ceremony. Putin asking Bush to stay out of it?

Any significance that The World Is Not Enough, in which a pipeline in the Caucasus is threatened, and The Hunt for Red October, "crazy Ivan," were on last night? ;)

[WickerBill]

This will impact the US election if it carries on.

[Ankf00]

they've rolled over the border into Georgia proper

[Gnam]

U.S. Begins Flying Georgian Troops out of Iraq
link (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,401121,00.html)

So much for staying out it.
Will those transports be escorted by US fighters?
Will Georgian troops be the only ones on the plane?
Do US transports provide complimentary ammo and satellite intelligence?

[Gnam]

It's getting heated over at the U.N.
link (http://www.reuters.com/article/asiaCrisis/idUSN10272978)


Reuters
The [U.S. ambassador to the U.N., Khalilzad] said he would introduce a U.N. resolution condemning Moscow, even though Russia is a permanent council member with the power to veto it.

The council has been unable to take any action in four emergency meetings on the crisis in as many days, though the heated exchanges have been reminiscent of the Cold War.

"We must condemn Russia's military assault on the sovereign state of Georgia ... including the targeting of civilians and the campaign of terror against the Georgian population," [Khalilzad] said.

[Russian Ambassador] Churkin was furious that Khalilzad used the word "terror".

"This statement, ambassador, is completely unacceptable, particularly from the lips of the permanent representative of a country whose actions we are aware of, including with regard to the civilian populations in Iraq and Afghanistan and Serbia," Churkin told the council.
Iran is probably loving this.
Good, good. Long as they not talkin' 'bout me.[/chris rock]

[Gnam]

More un-good news:
link (http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/08/10/georgia.russia/index.html)


courtesy cnn.com

Russia's Black Sea navy imposed a blockade on Georgia's coast, which it said was aimed at stopping shipments of military supplies into the country, according to Interfax, Russia's official news agency.

Urkaine, a former Soviet republic like Georgia, said it might prevent Russian navy ships involved in the blockade from returning to their bases in the Crimea, an spokeswoman with Urkaine's foreign ministry said.

"This statement is new to us, and it requires analysis," said Russian Defense Ministry Colonel-General Anatoly Nogovitsyn. "It is a case of a third party intervening in the process, which is quite surprising."

Russia's navy leases the bases from Ukraine through an agreement signed in 1997 which expires in 2017.

[Gnam]

Nice to see the Olympics can still set an example on how to get along.

http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/9679/artolympicembraceapie6.jpg

Russia's Natalia Paderina and Georgia's Nino Salukvadze hugged
after winning Olympic silver and bronze medals, respectively,
in the women's 10-meter air pistol competition. link (http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/asiapcf/08/10/olympic.embrace/index.html)

[stroker]

Nice to see the Olympics can still set an example on how to get along.

http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/9679/artolympicembraceapie6.jpg

Russia's Natalia Paderina and Georgia's Nino Salukvadze hugged
after winning Olympic silver and bronze medals, respectively,
in the women's 10-meter air pistol competition. link (http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/asiapcf/08/10/olympic.embrace/index.html)

What, no duel?

[coolhand]

Tom Clancy's Ghost Recon video game came out in 2001


Ghost Recon begins in 2008, with civil unrest in Russia. Ultra-nationalists have seized power in Russia, with plans to rebuild the government. Their first step is clandestine support of rebel factions in Georgia and the Baltic States. This is where the Ghosts come in: to silence the invasion. Armed with some of the most advanced weaponry in the world, the soldiers of the Ghost Recon force are covertly inserted into area of operations and given specific missions to curtail the rebel actions and overthrow their benefactors.



Anyway, How I see it is:

1. Russia hands out passports to Ossetians making them "Russians"
2. Russia arms and trains S.O. Militias
3. From inside Tshinvali the S.O. militias attack Georgian outposts and villages that are INSIDE S.O. Ethnic Georgians live inside the contested region.

4. Georgian millitary responds to attacks
5. Russian state media claims that Georgians are committing genocide and invade.

-------

Thing is that military experts point out that most military's (especially the underfunded Russian Army) cannot just get up and move large columns of armor without ramping up their gear. Heavy armor breaks down a lot and is not always ready. The Russian Army struck back immediately. These signals that they were planning on this all along. They had the S.O. Militias provoke the attack.

Also there is not evidence of Georgians committing genocide or targeting civilians. Russian media only shows dead Ossetians wearing Camo. :rolleyes:

Russia in 1999 kicked off the Second Chechen war with TACTICAL BALLISTIC MISSILE strikes at the center market in Grozny. Grozny was wrecked and those strikes killed ethnic Chechens and Russians living in there. If what Georgia ALLEGED BY RUSSIA did is genocide then what is Russia's actions in Chechnya?

S.O. is not a break away republic. All it's "leaders" are Russian/Soviet intelligence guys.


Because there is no way the regime in South Ossetia can be in any sense called "separatist." Who there is a separatist? The head of the local KGB, Anatoly Baranov, used to head the Federal Security Service (FSB) in the Russian Republic of Mordovia. The head of the South Ossetian Interior Ministry, Mikhail Mindzayev, served in the Interior Ministry of Russia's North Ossetia. The South Ossetian "defense minister," Vasily Lunev, used to be military commissar in Perm Oblast, and the secretary of South Ossetia's Security Council, Anatoly Barankevich, is a former deputy military commissar of Stavropol Krai. So who exactly is a separatist in this government? South Ossetian "prime minister" Yury Morozov?

[coolhand]

But Russia is only going to sew the seeds of it's own problem. If South Ossetia ends up independent or part of Russia (because there's probably no going back now), it's only a matter of time before North and South Ossetia start thinking about a unified Ossetia.

That is why I think these "breakaway" republics are a ruse by the Russians.

Why would S.O. want to be "independent" with a population of 60,000 people and 20,000 Russian "peacekeepers" there trying to start conflicts with Georgia?

They have to be smoking crack to think Russia would just give up North Ossetia. Now they will be a very small part of a very large country versus a part of a smaller country. This is purely driven by Russian interests.

[Gnam]

Heavy armor breaks down a lot and is not always ready. The Russian Army struck back immediately. These signals that they were planning on this all along.
Absolut - ly. Tanks are not Humvee's. They're trailer queens. Guess the Russians were just lucky to have a couple of armor columns in the area. :gomer:

[nrc]

Absolut - ly. Tanks are not Humvee's. They're trailer queens. Guess the Russians were just lucky to have a couple of armor columns in the area. :gomer:
Absolutely. They just happened to be in the area for "exercises". Maybe that's why Russia started shooting down Georgian UAVs months ago, to keep them from spying on their exercises.

[eiregosod]

revenues from the BTC oil pipeline.

http://blip.tv/file/1157098/

Th

[Gnam]

they've rolled over the border into Georgia proper
how far they gonna go?

Russians capture city of Gori and keep pushing to within 35 miles of the capital Tbilisi.
link (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,401243,00.html)

http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/4379/wggeorgia985400x300zi7.gif

Looks like halftime is over, and the Bear is back in the woods. I say we take Cuba in response. :wolverines:

[oddlycalm]

revenues from the BTC oil pipeline. Exactly, this didn't just happen in a vacuum, which is the way it's being reported. I haven't seen anything that provides any context, just the specifics of the events. As per usual it's about oil and the power that flows to those that control it.

oc

[nrc]

Looks like halftime is over, and the Bear is back in the woods. I say we take Cuba in response. :wolverines:
First we have to start issuing U.S. passports for anyone over there not happy with Castro's boys.

Maybe time to order some more Raptors.

[Methanolandbrats]

[QUOTE=nrc;239162]First we have to start issuing U.S. passports for anyone over there not happy with Castro's boys.

QUOTE] Already done. Miami is a suburb of Cuba.

[Gnam]

Anyone read Wired magazine's Danger Room blog?

His Crazy Ivan stories are following the situation with some good details, like the Russians using Su-25 aircraft to attack Georgian Su-25 factories. :gomer:
http://blog.wired.com/defense/crazy_ivans/index.html

His Friday entry rasied a good point about the US stirring the pot.
http://blog.wired.com/defense/2008/08/did-us-military.html

Wouldn't be the first time.

[cameraman]

I haven't seen anything that provides any context, just the specifics of the events.
oc

Can't happen.

1. It would require paying good reporters to work.
2. It would take longer than 20 seconds to explain on TV.
3. It would be very hard explain that complex a situation when limited to writing on a fourth grade reading level.

:irked:

[Michaelhatesfans]

Can't happen.

1. It would require paying good reporters to work.
2. It would take longer than 20 seconds to explain on TV.
3. It would be very hard explain that complex a situation when limited to writing on a fourth grade reading level.

:irked:

4. Brad and Angelina's baby is too young to voice an opinion on the matter.

[cameraman]

4. Brad and Angelina's baby is too young to voice an opinion on the matter.

She had twins, try to keep up okay:D

[Insomniac]

She had twins, try to keep up okay:D

And they're getting $14M just for pictures! So blame the media, but they're catering to what the public is willing to spend $$$ over. The real blame is probably that news was turned into a business after being run at a loss for a long, long time. I don't think people are less interested, just our wallets don't scream "give me better news".

[Insomniac]

Also, what is the U.S. going to do about it? We're a bit busy at the moment. Saber-rattling at Russia won't do a thing. We have no diplomatic leg to stand on given we attacked a country unprovoked. And finally, we need Russia to help with Iran. Well, we hope they'll help with Iran.

[cameraman]

I don't think people are less interested

Wrong, the public is less interested bordering on the dangerously clueless. A couple of excellent examples of the depth of the cluelessness happened in town this week.

Utah switched over to a 4 day work week for most state agencies last week. All offices were to be open M-TH for ten hours a day and closed on Friday. This has been headline news for a month now. On the TV, radio and in the papers constantly. Care to guess how many hundreds of people showed up at all manner of state agencies last Friday and were absolutely shocked to find them closed?

The DOT is rebuilding I-80 in Parleys Canyon and they closed the road to all west-bound traffic for 24 hours this weekend. There is no frontage road in Parley's Canyon, the detour was a several hour excursion either north or south along the Wasatch Range. Again a month of front page coverage along with lighted billboards on the highways and on ramps all the way to the Wyoming border. Again hundreds of people going "Huh? It is closed????"

The real telling thing was how pissed off these people were. They were going on, sputtering lines like How dare they? etc:rolleyes: Somehow it is the government's fault that these people are willfully idiots.

A very large percentage of the country gets no news of any kind.
This was local news that had a direct effect on their lives and they had no clue.
This country is getting stupider by the minute.

[Methanolandbrats]

Most of the retards in this country probably think the Russian army is closing in on Atlanta.

[coolhand]

Anyone read Wired magazine's Danger Room blog?

His Crazy Ivan stories are following the situation with some good details, like the Russians using Su-25 aircraft to attack Georgian Su-25 factories. :gomer:
http://blog.wired.com/defense/crazy_ivans/index.html

His Friday entry rasied a good point about the US stirring the pot.
http://blog.wired.com/defense/2008/08/did-us-military.html

Wouldn't be the first time.

I don't get what is so great about that crap blog. All they due is sardonically write about how every procurement decision is wrong yet they offer nothing substantive as a response.

He is just posting AP and Reuters articles you can find all over the web and he has no meaningful commentary. He links to stupid blogs like in his last post that basically says the best thing Georgia should do is be Russia's bitch.

[coolhand]

Anyway, can we stay on topic about this.

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blogs/defense/index.jsp?plckController=Blog&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&plckPostId=Blog%3a27ec4a53-dcc8-42d0-bd3a-01329aef79a7Post%3ab918530d-2098-4849-a371-6f6dbc5891f2

Check this out, the SU-25 Production Facility in Georgia has been destroyed by Russian SU-25s.

Also the Russian pilots they have shot down are high ranking. This could indicate that Russia has their "A-team" here. They were planning on this ahead of time.

[Ankf00]

oh, the irony.

we should start funding chechnyan rebels.

Ukraine's mentioned not allowing the russian vessels back to their base at Crimea, would be interesting to see how that plays out.

[Michaelhatesfans]

She had twins, try to keep up okay:D

Not knowing that was one of the proudest moments of my life.:)

[Gnam]

AR1 of defense news? ;)


Most of the retards in this country probably think the Russian army is closing in on Atlanta.
A convoy of pickup trucks and NASCARs was turned around at the Georgia state line Sunday afternoon after officials explained to each driver in turn that the Russians had, in fact, not invaded the Peach State.

"When you hear on the radio that Commie tanks are crossing the Georgia border, well tarnation son...It's go time," said a man only identified as Junior. "Amagoine my surprize to learn there's two Georgia's. The real one, and one in sumsuch land way over yonder. Must be one o' dem alternate realities or some dang thing."

[coolhand]

oh, the irony.

we should start funding chechnyan rebels.

Ukraine's mentioned not allowing the russian vessels back to their base at Crimea, would be interesting to see how that plays out.

http://informationdissemination.blogspot.com/2008/08/russia-stands-at-crossroads.html

First Comment


There are three primary MSRs thru the caucasus.
The Caspian Sea coast, the Black Sea coast, and the Ossetia passes.

This is about Russia wanting to split the region from NATO.

They are pushing in Ossetia and look like they are on the Black Sea coast as well.

With Georgia split and fighting on two fronts, it falls, that puts Russia in position to do the same to Azerbaijan.
Two axis' of attack.

Armenia is mopup.

Regain the caucuses and isolate the central Asian Republics from western support.

This is not about Georgia. This is about eight of the former soviet republics being taken or isolated from NATO so that Russia can take over at will. Eight of the 19 countries the Soviet Union lost to the breakup.

Belorusa is already defacto part of Russia. It never really was independent. (I do not count it in the 19.)

That means that Ukraine and Moldova will be the next targets after this operation completes.

[Gnam]

The Russian A team of pilots may be the only ones with any current flight time. With their budgets trimmed they might be relying on Cold Warriors to shoulder the missions only because the younger pilots don't have much training.

As for the similarity in equipment, identifying friend or foe in a tank battle with T-72's on both sides would be pretty difficult. Although, the Russians would probably shoot first ask questions never.

[coolhand]

That is another interesting point, these are Russian T-72s. T-90s are stationed in their eastern military district. They don't have enough money to replace the T-72s with T-90s. That is why you see all the T-72s with ERA glued all over.

[Gnam]

Ukraine's mentioned not allowing the russian vessels back to their base at Crimea, would be interesting to see how that plays out.
Not to worry, I hear The Ukraine is Strong! "Hey man, you can't park that there. Oh, you can? That's cool too."

Has Turkey made a statement? They can't be too jazzed about once again sharing a border with Russia.

[cameraman]

Okay take the info with a grain of salt but:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_South_Ossetia_War

and the edit history

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:2008_South_Ossetia_war

have some pretty good/interesting information.

[stroker]

Confucious say, "Watch F-22 deployment..."

[Gnam]

It would be interesting to see how the Russians would react to American/NATO aircraft in Georgia's airspace:

Attack and risk further American interference...
Ignore them and keep on bombing Tbilisi...
Leave and let the ground forces mop up...

If Russia withdraws it's planes, they avoid a possible aerial confrontation and sacrifice little. Georgia's airforce isn't going to dominate the sky, and US/NATO planes won't attack the Russians, leaving the Russian troops just as safe as they are now. They would be giving up air support, but US/NATO ground forces aren't coming anytime soon, so the Russians troops wouldn't really need it since they outnumber the Georgians 100:1.

The least we could do is start humanitarian airdrops by C-130's escorted by a couple of F-15 squadrons.

[Sean Malone]

The least we could do is start humanitarian airdrops by C-130's escorted by a couple of F-15 squadrons.

That I can see happening. But I think Russia will play this in the typical manner, push the limits until intense international pressure is applied and then back off. Probably by Wednesday.

[nrc]

4. Brad and Angelina's baby is too young to voice an opinion on the matter.
I'm pretty sure that the fact that one of the major wire services would actually use the phrase "Bradgelina" is proof positive that our society deserves whatever apocalypse is coming.

[Sean Malone]

I'm pretty sure that the fact that one of the major wire services would actually use the phrase "Bradgelina" is proof positive that our society deserves whatever apocalypse is coming.

Amen.

BRB, gotta check my myspace page. j/k, LOL!

[Ankf00]

wanna read some s***?


RIGA, Latvia (AFP)--Russia's ambassador to Latvia Monday warned the Baltic states and Poland that they would pay for their criticism of the Kremlin over the conflict in Georgia, the Baltic news agency BNS reported.

"One must not hurry on such serious issues, as serious mistakes can be made that have to be paid for a long time afterwards," Alexander Veshnyakov was quoted as saying by BNS.

Contacted by AFP, a spokesman for the Russian embassy in Riga confirmed the ambassador's comments but declined to elaborate.

Veshnyakov's remarks followed a joint statement Saturday by Latvia's President Valdis Zatlers and his counterparts from Estonia, Lithuania and Poland which called on the European Union and the North Atlantic Treaty Organization to oppose Russia's "imperialist" policy towards Georgia.

The three Baltic states -- which were part of the Soviet Union -- and Poland are staunch allies of Georgia, a former Soviet republic.

Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Poland are now members of the E.U. and NATO.

Click here to go to Dow Jones NewsPlus, a web front page of today's most important business and market news, analysis and commentary: http:// www.djnewsplus.com/al?rnd=N79umasaHv1AJRef%2BSFKWA%3D%3D. You can use this link on the day this article is published and the following day.

Corrected Aug. 11, 200809:09 ET (13:09 GMT)Dow Jones Newswires

08-11-080842ET

The three Baltic states -- which were part of the Soviet Union -- and Poland are staunch allies of Georgia, a former Soviet republic.

Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Poland are now members of the E.U. and NATO.

ukraine is exposed but the rest are NATO & CZ is beyond Poland geographically.

time for me to rewrite my script for Red Dawn 2. UKRAINVERINES!!!!

[coolhand]

Russia has moved 4000 troops in Abkhazia. No way they did this on the fly. They were ready for it. It just makes no sense for Georgia to start this now.

http://jamestown.org/edm/article.php?article_id=2373276

This article was published a WEEK BEFORE this started


The Russian military and Abkhaz officials have announced that Moscow and Sukhumi are in negotiations about the possible return of the Railroad Troops to Abkhazia for more restoration work (Interfax, July 30). Today the mission is indeed fulfilled—the tracks in Abkhazia are ready for rapid deployment of additional Russian troops, supplies, heavy weapons and armor direct to the possible future battlefield. The restored tracks today end some 35 km from the Georgian-Abkhaz separation line on the Inguri River, just out of reach of the Georgian artillery, which makes perfect military sense. The scene in Abkhazia is all set for major military action. The railroad unit that was deployed in Abkhazia has not been removed far—it has been withdrawn to a base a couple of kilometers north of the Abkhaz (Georgian) border at Gumaria close to Adler, south of Sochi (RIA-Novosti, July 30). If in the future Railroad Troops are required to support possible action in Abkhazia, they may move in at short notice.

This was a trap Russia has been preparing for a long time

[Gnam]

Crazy.

Eerie reminders of the Cold War continue. Tonight's Top Gear episode featured a replica of a German hamlet the British Army built in 1989 for soldiers training to fight Russia.

[Insomniac]

Wrong, the public is less interested bordering on the dangerously clueless. A couple of excellent examples of the depth of the cluelessness happened in town this week.

Utah switched over to a 4 day work week for most state agencies last week. All offices were to be open M-TH for ten hours a day and closed on Friday. This has been headline news for a month now. On the TV, radio and in the papers constantly. Care to guess how many hundreds of people showed up at all manner of state agencies last Friday and were absolutely shocked to find them closed?

The DOT is rebuilding I-80 in Parleys Canyon and they closed the road to all west-bound traffic for 24 hours this weekend. There is no frontage road in Parley's Canyon, the detour was a several hour excursion either north or south along the Wasatch Range. Again a month of front page coverage along with lighted billboards on the highways and on ramps all the way to the Wyoming border. Again hundreds of people going "Huh? It is closed????"

The real telling thing was how pissed off these people were. They were going on, sputtering lines like How dare they? etc:rolleyes: Somehow it is the government's fault that these people are willfully idiots.

A very large percentage of the country gets no news of any kind.
This was local news that had a direct effect on their lives and they had no clue.
This country is getting stupider by the minute.

I don't think there was any point in time when everyone paid attention to the news. It's possible that with the big emphasis on ratings, more people watch the "news". Hundreds of people just doesn't seem like that many. Overall, I do agree the country is getting stupider. But there's stupid like the examples above that have probably forever been with us and then the lowering of the average American's intelligence to the point of indifference to so many things.

[Sean Malone]

Wrong, the public is less interested bordering on the dangerously clueless. A couple of excellent examples of the depth of the cluelessness happened in town this week.

Utah switched over to a 4 day work week for most state agencies last week. All offices were to be open M-TH for ten hours a day and closed on Friday. This has been headline news for a month now. On the TV, radio and in the papers constantly. Care to guess how many hundreds of people showed up at all manner of state agencies last Friday and were absolutely shocked to find them closed?

The DOT is rebuilding I-80 in Parleys Canyon and they closed the road to all west-bound traffic for 24 hours this weekend. There is no frontage road in Parley's Canyon, the detour was a several hour excursion either north or south along the Wasatch Range. Again a month of front page coverage along with lighted billboards on the highways and on ramps all the way to the Wyoming border. Again hundreds of people going "Huh? It is closed????"

The real telling thing was how pissed off these people were. They were going on, sputtering lines like How dare they? etc:rolleyes: Somehow it is the government's fault that these people are willfully idiots.

A very large percentage of the country gets no news of any kind.
This was local news that had a direct effect on their lives and they had no clue.
This country is getting stupider by the minute.

Zietgiest. :D

[TKGAngel]

And they're getting $14M just for pictures! So blame the media, but they're catering to what the public is willing to spend $$$ over. The real blame is probably that news was turned into a business after being run at a loss for a long, long time. I don't think people are less interested, just our wallets don't scream "give me better news".

And the good folks at People magazine tried to recoup their investment by adding an additional 50 cents to the cover price of the issue featuring the new babies.

So anyway, thank you for posting the links and info about this situation. Most of it has been fascinating reading.


Most of the retards in this country probably think the Russian army is closing in on Atlanta.

Right, Comrade Shermanovich is going to come and burn the city down on valiant search for moose and squirrel. :)

[Gnam]

http://img397.imageshack.us/img397/2576/russiaputinimage2xo1.jpg

[oddlycalm]

This was a trap Russia has been preparing for a long time
In that case we will have had plenty of time to prepare our diplomatic response. Our secretary of state is a highly regarded exert on Russia after all.

oc

[coolhand]

Georgia Strikes Back With Air Defenses
Aug 11, 2008
By David A. Fulghum and Douglas Barrie
AviationWeek.com

If the land war in Georgia so far seems to be going decidedly in favor of the Russian army and navy, the Georgians seem to be racking up a lopsided score with their air defenses.

Over the weekend, the Russians made a successful advance on land through South Ossetia to the outskirts of the Georgian east-west transportation hub of Gori. There also was a one-sided naval battle - that resulted in the sinking of a Georgian gunboat - in the Black Sea off the coast of the second breakaway enclave of Abkhazia.

However, Georgian air defenses appear to be taking a steady toll on Russian aircraft. Russia has admitted to losing a total of four aircraft (the Georgians claim 10) in the conflict. So far they've admitted to the destruction of three Su-25 Frogfoot strike aircraft and a Tu-22M3 Backfire bomber that was flying a reconnaissance mission.

Photos from the combat area show the wreck of the Tu-22 and a Frogfoot as well as a picture of the Backfire pilot in a Georgian hospital. The pilot was Col. Igor Zinov, a 50 year-old Tu-22M3 instructor pilot stationed at the Russian Flight Test Center at Akhtubinsk. (See Aviation Week's defense photo gallery for photos.)

"Ergo, the Russians are using their A-Team, as expected," a U.S. analyst says.

Other analysts say the Georgians are probably operating the SA-11 Buk-M1 (low-to-high altitude) and the (low-to-medium altitude) Tor-1M mobile air defense missile systems.

"The Russians have gone to great lengths to try and implicate the Ukraine in the Russian Air Force losses, even going as far as to suggest that an SA-5 sold to the Georgians by the Ukraine was responsible for the Backfire loss," a second U.S. analyst says. "That's clearly not the case, but shows the Russian attempt to bring the Ukraine into the periphery of this event by implication, and to attempt to explain how one of their premier long-range attack assets could have been shot down so easily.

"The Russian press has been making lots of noise about the BUK and TOR systems, and I would say that the BUK is the most likely culprit for all of these aircraft losses," the analyst says. "If so, it points out a major flaw in the Russian plan - not gaining [and] maintaining pure air superiority [and] dominance over the battlespace by taking out the Georgian air defenses and air defense network before they went into the conflict."

Russian-built and designed air defenses are apparently exploitable, as was shown in the Israeli Air Force's total shut down of Syrian air defenses prior to bombing a suspected nuclear site. But Russia apparently has yet to apply the digital keys to unlock the Georgians' network.

During the months before the conflict, the Russians claimed to have shot down several Hermes 450 UAVs (made by Israeli-based Elbit) with fighter aircraft stationed at least temporarily in South Ossetia.

The Russians say they shot down a Georgian Frogfoot outside the town of Eredvi in South Ossetia today. The Russians - in a stunning piece of irony - have twice bombed the Su-25 Frogfoot manufacturing plant on the outskirts of the Georgian capital of Tbilisi.

So if the Georgians over-estimated their ground forces, "it appears that the Russians underestimated the Georgian air defense abilities in this conflict, and have paid the price," the second U.S. analyst says.

Georgia's foreign minister, Eka Tkeshelashvili, and deputy interior minister, Eka Zguladze, will be in Brussels tomorrow for emergency talks at NATO headquarters. The two officials will meet with NATO Secretary General Jaap de Hoop Scheffer, and address the North Atlantic Council.

The funny thing is that these Russian barbarians are using a lot of Ukrainian hardware. A large part of their TU-160 fleet came from the Ukraine along with scores of missiles and transport aircraft.

I am sure the Russian media is pointing this all out :gomer:

[coolhand]

In that case we will have had plenty of time to prepare our diplomatic response. Our secretary of state is a highly regarded exert on Russia after all.

oc

What would be a good response?

[G.]

Russian-built and designed air defenses are apparently exploitable, as was shown in the Israeli Air Force's total shut down of Syrian air defenses prior to bombing a suspected nuclear site. But Russia apparently has yet to apply the digital keys to unlock the Georgians' network.

I saw this before, probably here. Anybody got a link explaining all of this?

NM, it's on aviationweek.com

[oddlycalm]

What would be a good response?
Good responses tend to be based on a position of strength. Our position is that we are working our military overtime 7yrs into a deployment in Afghanistan and 5+yrs in Iraq, we have a lame duck president who has strained relations with our NATO allies, we are in the middle of an election cycle and we have allowed unregulated speculation in mortgage derivatives to damage our economy. Russia is flush with petro dollars and the timing is no coincidence.

The folks in the State Dept better bring their A game, but I'm not sure it will do any good.

oc

[STD]

The current State Department has an "A" game?
Who would have thought it possible.

[WickerBill]

Stay the course, people, so this thread can stay open...

[oddlycalm]

The current State Department has an "A" game?
Who would have thought it possible.
Nick Burns certainly has an "A" game. He's officially retired but still has special envoy status.

oc

[eiregosod]

Nick Burns certainly has an "A" game. He's officially retired but still has special envoy status.

oc

Burnsie better do a heck of a job.

[coolhand]

Good responses tend to be based on a position of strength. Our position is that we are working our military overtime 7yrs into a deployment in Afghanistan and 5+yrs in Iraq, we have a lame duck president who has strained relations with our NATO allies, we are in the middle of an election cycle and we have allowed unregulated speculation in mortgage derivatives to damage our economy. Russia is flush with petro dollars and the timing is no coincidence.

The folks in the State Dept better bring their A game, but I'm not sure it will do any good.

oc

Don't derail the thread with politics...

[Gnam]

Russia seems to have slowed their roll. But say they won't remove their peacekeepers.

US dipolmatic repsonse #1: No joint exercies with Navy (http://www.reuters.com/article/latestCrisis/idUSN12152298)

War games with Geogria TBA?

[Gnam]

I like how the Russians made their peace offer a threat. Peace or Else!

courtesy thisislondon.co.uk (http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23531536-details/Kremlin+orders+halt+in+Georgia,+but+tells+troops:+ 'Crush+resistance'/article.do):
Mr Medvedev, speaking after Russia's military might crushed its neighbour's forces, said: 'The aggressor has been punished and suffered very significant losses. Its military has been disorganised.'

But he ordered his commanders: 'If there are any emerging hotbeds of resistance or any aggressive actions, you should take steps to destroy them.'


In addition to keeping the land they conqurered, the Russians don't want Georgia to defend the new borders.
I guess guns make them uncomfortable. :shakehead

courtesy arabnews.com (http://www.arabnews.com/?page=4&section=0&article=112758&d=13&m=8&y=2008):
This is an absolutely binding condition that the Georgian side is to pull back its forces not only from South Ossetia, but also from other areas of Georgia from which they can shell and bomb the region,” [Russian Foreign Minister] Lavrov said.

[Gnam]

Although Georgia is in a tough spot, I wonder how the South Ossetians are feeling. Sure they're safe from Georgia now, but now there's not even a pretext of a filter between them and Mother Russia.


from sfgate.com:
In Tskhinvali, the South Ossetian provincial capital now under Russian control...A tour by AP journalists found the heaviest damage around the government center...Several residential areas seemed to have little damage beyond shattered windows.

A poster hanging nearby showed Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin and the words "Say yes to peace and stability." Broken glass and other debris littered the ground.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2008/08/12/international/i081748D96.DTL

Peace and stability aren't the problem, it's the body count and oppression used to achieve them that turn off most people.

[G.]

Don't derail the thread with politics...Nothing Partisan in oc's post.

I assume that the no politics rule applies to "your side, my side" stuff.

But I ain't the boss.

[Sean Malone]

Nothing Partisan in oc's post.

.

I agree.

[nrc]

My partisan remarks are the most non-partisan of all.

Seriously, someone may believe in the depths of their soul that their view that the current Ministry of Silly Walks has no "A" game is a rational, objective, non-partisan assessment of the situation. Someone who disagrees is therefore clearly a partisan, silly-wing nutjob.

So yes, let's not go down that road.

[nrc]

It's interesting that even though George is often referred to as being U.S. "trained and equipped," I don't see much sign of U.S. equipment outside of the army surplus uniforms and maybe a scattering of small arms. Most of their equipment is Soviet hand-me-downs and stuff from other former Eastern-block countries.

Evidently Georgia was told that once they know how to use what they have now they can start getting the good stuff. Not sure if that was the real story or if they just knew that sending in Stingers and F-18s would have meant trouble with our humanitarian friends in the Kremlin.

[G.]

My partisan remarks are the most non-partisan of all.

Seriously, someone may believe in the depths of their soul that their view that the current Ministry of Silly Walks has no "A" game is a rational, objective, non-partisan assessment of the situation. Someone who disagrees is therefore clearly a partisan, silly-wing nutjob.

So yes, let's not go down that road.Your Favorite Minister of Silly Walks SUCKS!

:p ;)

Yes, please, let's keep this thread open.

I'm learning a lot. Appears to be TOTALLY orchestrated. On both sides (RU and GA)

This is some big stuff, really.

It could define our next decade, in a non-partisan political way.

[STD]

Nothing Partisan in oc's post.


Nothing to be taken as partisan in mine as well.
I was looking at their record analytically.
I have no stake in any political agenda or party talking points.
Life is much better that way. :D



Sorry if my post was misinterpreted.

[coolhand]

I like how the Russians made their peace offer a threat. Peace or Else!



In addition to keeping the land they conqurered, the Russians don't want Georgia to defend the new borders.
I guess guns make them uncomfortable. :shakehead


Russia wants the Georgian military to pull out of Georgia.

[coolhand]

It's interesting that even though George is often referred to as being U.S. "trained and equipped," I don't see much sign of U.S. equipment outside of the army surplus uniforms and maybe a scattering of small arms. Most of their equipment is Soviet hand-me-downs and stuff from other former Eastern-block countries.

Evidently Georgia was told that once they know how to use what they have now they can start getting the good stuff. Not sure if that was the real story or if they just knew that sending in Stingers and F-18s would have meant trouble with our humanitarian friends in the Kremlin.

They started phasing in things like M4s. You will see Russians showing pictures of Georgian in parades with M4s. However these were not deployed, it was only for show until they build up a stockpile of rifles\ammo and get everyone trained. They were fighting with Kalashnikovs this week. The only obvious piece of gaer is their MARPAT uniforms.

Other than that no US missiles AFVs or Aircraft I know of. Their integrated air defense network seems completely Warsaw Pact. It may of had US/Israeli training and radar help but the missiles were BUKs and TORs

I did hear a report that the Russian are furious about an Israeli anti-armor weapon that has taken out dozens of Russian armor pieces. It did not mention ATGMs but it may be SPIKE. SPIKE is a fire and forget ATGM like Javelin. This new generation of ATGM (Russians don't have an equivelent) is the "STINGER" of this decade. Guerilla/Insurgency warfare with enough missiles could decimate entire columns.

[coolhand]

http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/08/why_not_ossetia.html

Here is a good post on the Geography and its meaning. The Caucasus Mountains were a natural barrier from the Russians. The tunnel in S.O. leave Georgia (as we saw this week) absolutely vulnerable. Also the Coastline around the mountain range is in control because the Russians control Abkhazia.

If you look at this in a geo-strategic sense Russia is trying to Secure their "Southern Flank".

[oddlycalm]

There are some reports that the Russians are still maneuvering their armor into towns well after the cease fire. No shooting, but consolidating positions. Certainly not withdrawing as they said.

oc

edit - The Georgian claims that Russian armor was moving into Gori and elsewhere are not true.

[Sean Malone]

Bush Orders U.S. Military Aircraft, Ships to Deliver Humanitarian Aid to Georgia

[chop456]

I hope this doesn't affect the Petit Le Mans.

[oddlycalm]

Seems to me that Putin's cold war era tactics may have a short term victory but create a longer term problem. This isn't 1967 and globalization means that Russia's economy is inescapably interlinked with the rest of the world. If the world decides to pull back Russia's emerging economy suffers in a big way.

Thugery against neighboring states has escalated from internet attacks and coincidental dioxin poisoning of leaders to military invasion. That's the kind of situation risk adverse organizations (most businesses, governments, research institutions, etc.) look to avoid.

On the line are a renewal of the soon to expire Russia/EU agreement which would result in serious trade and travel difficulties. Longer term is WTO and G8membership. The real losses will be every time a company or organization decides to take it's business or investment elsewhere. Russia may have protected it's Southern flank from an imagined invasion that will never come and derailed it's economic future in one fell swoop.

oc

[cameraman]

Russia may have protected it's Southern flank from an imagined invasion that will never come and derailed it's economic future in one fell swoop.

oc

And it was completed in less than a week:saywhat:

Now there is some highly efficient leadership.

[Gnam]

That's the kind of situation risk adverse organizations (most businesses, governments, research institutions, etc.) look to avoid.
Does Russia produce much else besides raw materials and military hardware? Their economy is somewhat immune to foreign pressure. Europe is still going to buy their oil, and there's always a market for weapons.

Even if their economy suffers, bread lines and no pay are not new to Russians and tend to give the government more control, which is what Putin's after.

Remind you of anyone? :tony:

[Insomniac]

Seems to me that Putin's cold war era tactics may have a short term victory but create a longer term problem. This isn't 1967 and globalization means that Russia's economy is inescapably interlinked with the rest of the world. If the world decides to pull back Russia's emerging economy suffers in a big way.

Thugery against neighboring states has escalated from internet attacks and coincidental dioxin poisoning of leaders to military invasion. That's the kind of situation risk adverse organizations (most businesses, governments, research institutions, etc.) look to avoid.

On the line are a renewal of the soon to expire Russia/EU agreement which would result in serious trade and travel difficulties. Longer term is WTO and G8membership. The real losses will be every time a company or organization decides to take it's business or investment elsewhere. Russia may have protected it's Southern flank from an imagined invasion that will never come and derailed it's economic future in one fell swoop.

oc

A boycott of Russia is just as likely as one of China. The same reason you cite (globalization) for problems is the reason there won't be a boycott. No one country has the clout to unilaterally hurt Russia's economy in any type of meaningful way that may convince them to back off.

You have Russia pulling things like:


The real trouble, though, got under way in June 2007, with Mr. Browder stuck outside the country.

Dozens of police officers swooped down on the Moscow offices of Hermitage and its law firm, confiscating documents and computers. When a member of the firm protested that the search was illegal, he was beaten by officers and hospitalized for two weeks, said the firm’s head, Jamison R. Firestone.

Supervising the raids was the same police official who called Mr. Browder’s office about the visa three and a half months earlier, Lt. Col. Artem Kuznetsov of the Department of Tax Crime of the Interior Ministry. He said he was seeking evidence in an inquiry into whether one of Hermitage’s related entities, called Kameya, had underpaid its taxes by $44 million.

...

The issues surrounding the Hermitage tax payment were complex, but there was a larger question: why did the police need to carry out searches and seize so many documents, including many unrelated to Kameya, when such tax disputes are first supposed to be handled through routine bureaucratic channels?

Even more curious, Hermitage asked the Russian tax authorities whether Kameya owed back taxes. The answer was no.

But it did not matter. Hermitage was about to become victim of what is known in Russia as corporate raiding, or seizing companies and other assets with the aid of corrupt law enforcement officials and judges. The phenomenon has flourished under Mr. Putin.

In the weeks after the police seized the corporate documents, someone used them to transfer the ownership of three of Hermitage’s holding companies to an entity based in Kazan, a provincial capital 450 miles east of Moscow. The entity’s registered owner was a man with a murder conviction, records show.

...

Now that the corporate raiders had seized the three Hermitage holding companies, they resorted to a classic strategy to try to drain them of money.

A lawsuit was filed in a court in St. Petersburg in July 2007 against the holding companies, asserting that they had defrauded another company, Logos Plus, of hundreds of millions of dollars in a 2005 deal involving Gazprom stock.

...

In all, 15 such claims were put forth in similar cases. A total of $1.26 billion in judgments were made against Hermitage, which did not even learn of the cases until three months later.

It's an interesting article.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/24/world/europe/24kremlin.html?_r=2&scp=4&sq=putin&st=cse&oref=slogin&oref=slogin

They've been doing things like this for a long time, not to mention the absolute corruption, but people are lining up to do business there.

[Gnam]

Reading the Russian "news" is fun. http://www.rbcnews.com/


Numerous reports on alleged movements of the Russian military in Georgia towards Tbilisi, as well as on looting in the town of Gori, are totally unjustified, Andrei Nesterenko, an official spokesman for Russia's Foreign Ministry, stated today. Nesterenko stressed that Russian reinforcement units were still near the town of Gori, and were not moving anywhere as they were preoccupied with a serious problem. They found a large abandoned stockpile of munitions and combat equipment near Gori. It would be wrong to leave it as is, and the troops are taking steps to dismantle the munitions so that they could do no harm to the civilian population.

The situation is aggravated by the fact that municipal authorities and law enforcement officials have left Gori, and the inhabitants are facing food difficulties, Nesterenko noted adding that the Russian military will provide assistance to them.

Earlier today, Georgia's Deputy Defense Minister Baku Kutelia demanded that Russian troops leave Gori and move over to their bases. According to Kutelia, Russian forces have already been pulled back from Zugdidi to Abkhazia.

http://www.rbcnews.com/free/20080813194744.shtml




Information distributed by a number of foreign media companies on the capturing of Georgia's city Gori by Russian troops is "absurd", according to the Staff of the Combined Peacekeeping Forces in the Georgian-South Ossetian conflict zone. The organization's representative note that it was possible to make the footage in Tskhinvali and then say it was made in Gori.

Earlier today, CNN aired a report saying that Russian tanks are already in Gori and are planning to move towards Tbilisi in the nearest future.

So they're not in Gori, but if they were, they are only taking care of the poor people left behind when the Georgians evacuated the city for no reason. :gomer:

[eiregosod]

There's so much crap from Murdoch news prefered military analysts on this war its unbelieveable. Yeah The russians were suffering heavy casualties :tony:

makes Baghdad bob look credible
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUdu3H3iHvM

[Gnam]

Russia n Georgia have been going at it for a long time.


Good article by the Times: Another battle in the 1,000 year Russia-Georgia grudge match (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article4509624.ece?openComment=true)

The Evil Empire Strikes Back. http://img384.imageshack.us/img384/3554/vadercu2.gif

[Indy]

Seems to me that Putin's cold war era tactics may have a short term victory but create a longer term problem. This isn't 1967 and globalization means that Russia's economy is inescapably interlinked with the rest of the world. If the world decides to pull back Russia's emerging economy suffers in a big way.

Thugery against neighboring states has escalated from internet attacks and coincidental dioxin poisoning of leaders to military invasion. That's the kind of situation risk adverse organizations (most businesses, governments, research institutions, etc.) look to avoid.

On the line are a renewal of the soon to expire Russia/EU agreement which would result in serious trade and travel difficulties. Longer term is WTO and G8membership. The real losses will be every time a company or organization decides to take it's business or investment elsewhere. Russia may have protected it's Southern flank from an imagined invasion that will never come and derailed it's economic future in one fell swoop.

oc

But they sent some very important signals to their neighbors.

1) Joining NATO is bad for you.

2) We may let you play at democracy, but never forget you are on our turf.

3) Russian populations will be defended with military force.

4) You may want to rethink your business relationships with the West, comrades.

[Sean Malone]

But they sent some very important signals to their neighbors.

1) Joining NATO is bad for you.

2) We may let you play at democracy, but never forget you are on our turf.

3) Russian populations will be defended with military force.

4) You may want to rethink your business relationships with the West, comrades.

Hope it is worth it to them. They're about to get shut down.

[cameraman]

Hope it is worth it to them. They're about to get shut down.

By who?

[oddlycalm]

But they sent some very important signals to their neighbors.
True, but in doing so they sent a bigger and broader message to anyone that was thinking about doing business, investing in or entering into agreements with Russia.

oc

[Ankf00]

True, but in doing so they sent a bigger and broader message to anyone that was thinking about doing business, investing in or entering into agreements with Russia.

oc

Russia sent that message long ago and people are still foaming at the mouth to try and bank over there.

[coolhand]

And it was completed in less than a week:saywhat:

Now there is some highly efficient leadership.

http://www.nypost.com/seven/08142008/postopinion/opedcolumnists/a_czar_is_born__bad_vlad_wins_war__dupes_124386.ht m

Russia made sure their side of the story won out and they covered the lead up to the invasion as an exercise.

[coolhand]

Does Russia produce much else besides raw materials and military hardware? Their economy is somewhat immune to foreign pressure. Europe is still going to buy their oil, and there's always a market for weapons.

Even if their economy suffers, bread lines and no pay are not new to Russians and tend to give the government more control, which is what Putin's after.

Remind you of anyone? :tony:

They export:

Resources
Weapons
Women

[coolhand]

There's so much crap from Murdoch news prefered military analysts on this war its unbelieveable. Yeah The russians were suffering heavy casualties :tony:

makes Baghdad bob look credible
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUdu3H3iHvM

I bet the Russian casualties in Georgia would make any western general have a seizure. They have a total different level of tolerance for this stuff. look how many casualties they had in Tiny Chechnya. I have read that Georgian hunter killer teams with ATGMs took out more armor than Russia expected. .

[Ankf00]

US-Polski missile defense agreement to come today

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/P/POLAND_US_MISSILE_DEFENSE?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT


WARSAW, Poland (AP) -- Poland and the United States reached an agreement Thursday that will see a battery of American missiles established inside Poland, the prime minister said, announcing a plan that has infuriated Russia and raised the specter of an escalation of tension with the region's communist-era master.

The deal, which Polish Prime Minister Donald Tusk said was to be signed later Thursday in Warsaw by Poland and the United States, includes what he called a "mutual commitment" between the two nations - beyond that of NATO - to come to each other's assistance in case of danger.

[Gnam]

Russia claims 74 dead. http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&q=russia%20losses&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wn
(click second story down from Wall Street Journal)


This article from last year had some good points. Although the author thought Russia would opt for negotiations instead of invasion. http://www.pinr.com/report.php?ac=view_report&report_id=676&language_id=1


Originally published August 22, 2007:

The impression is that Russia wants to reposition itself clearly as a re-established global power before the United States elects a new president in the fall of 2008. American pre-election tactics, Washington's difficult Middle East campaign, and high oil and gas prices give Russia an opportunity to accelerate its comeback. Nevertheless, it is unlikely that Moscow will seek an extreme diplomatic crisis with Washington in the coming months and years. Instead, it will presumably formulate a broad proposal, designed to re-negotiate its strategic relations with the West. Briefly said, Russia wants to re-negotiate what it had to do in 1990-1992 from a weak position, during its deep political, economic, and military crisis that followed the perestroika years.
.
.
.
At the moment, the Kremlin gives less importance to its international image than to its ability to put pressure on some geostrategic hotspots.

Driving a wedge between pro-Western elites in former Soviet states and the enlarged N.A.T.O. is critical for Russia's geopolitical interests.

[Gnam]

The deal...includes...a "mutual commitment" between the two nations - beyond that of NATO - to come to each other's assistance in case of danger.
The trouble with setting a trip wire for a bear is you might catch one. Then you really got problems.

Speaking of possible sanctions, would F1 give up consideration of a Russian GP?

[Ankf00]

not that it'll happen but I'd *really* like to see the winter games be moved away from Putin's personal playground.

f*** that noise

[The Doctor]

US-Polski missile defense agreement to come today

The deal, which Polish Prime Minister Donald Tusk said was to be signed later Thursday in Warsaw by Poland and the United States, includes what he called a "mutual commitment" between the two nations - beyond that of NATO - to come to each other's assistance in case of danger.

Is it just me, or does this sound a lot like WWI? Everyone will ally themselves with one country or another, something happens, then this triggers all the alliances and everyone goes to war.

I'm not saying this is going to happen, but it just feels similar.

[Sean Malone]

Is it just me, or does this sound a lot like WWI? Everyone will ally themselves with one country or another, something happens, then this triggers all the alliances and everyone goes to war.

I'm not saying this is going to happen, but it just feels similar.

I wasn't around then, but I trust ya!;)

[Gnam]

word.

Although the fact that they picked Georgia, an non aligned country, instead of Ukraine or Poland might indicate they don't want a large conflict.

[eiregosod]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDm_ZHyYTrg

[Sean Malone]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDm_ZHyYTrg

I never realized how flat the fiddle sounds in that song and how simplistic the phrases are. Fun diddy though. Took me back. :thumbup:

[stroker]

word.

Although the fact that they picked Georgia, an non aligned country, instead of Ukraine or Poland might indicate they don't want a large conflict.

You pick on the weakest one first, then move up from there...