View Full Version : It's official! The IRL blows
Turbos in 2011.
Honda still hasn't told Tony if they will be four or six cylinders engines, though.
http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080823/SPORTS0107/808230418
nissan gtp
08-23-08, 08:22 AM
this part was funny--
Until 2011, the IRL plans to soften the sound of the normally aspirated engines with mufflers being tested. Those should be in place for next season, Barnhart said.
next up - fix the car
Methanolandbrats
08-23-08, 08:50 AM
It's also official......by 2011 nobody will GAF.
Rogue Leader
08-23-08, 09:32 AM
Wait so the news here as that they believe the IRL will still exist in 2011?
Don Quixote
08-23-08, 10:56 AM
next up, optional soft compound tires
:tony:
this part was funny--
next up - fix the car
Only one way to do that properly.
http://www.can-am-recycling.com/photo22.jpg
Wait so the news here as that they believe the IRL will still exist in 2011?
Of course. It will (is) be a support series for the :tony: 500.
Great work, :tony:. You've managed to bring this 360 from where the vision(s) began. Brilliant! :saywhat: :flame:
-Kevin
It's also official......by 2011 nobody will GAF.
I think we are already there. Nobody GAF right now.
SurfaceUnits
08-23-08, 01:14 PM
I guess Porsche's offer is off the table
SurfaceUnits
08-23-08, 01:16 PM
I think we are already there. Nobody GAF right now.marxie does, even today, he's trying to put a positive spin on the 0.0RL TV deal
Andrew Longman
08-23-08, 01:18 PM
I guess Porsche's offer is off the table
Which was?
750 hp I4 turbo does sound pretty cool. Isn't that what many were advocating in '98 or earlier?
Accipiter
08-23-08, 01:46 PM
Which was?
750 hp I4 turbo does sound pretty cool. Isn't that what many were advocating in '98 or earlier?
I believe it died around '99 when the CART owners couldn't agree on it because some were still holding out for a common spec with the IRL. And it's likely that those holdouts were amongst the fist to go to the IRL. :rolleyes:
How much more testing of mufflers does the IRL need to do? They were messing around with putting a couple of Supertrapps (the 4" diameter stack kind) on crapwagons years ago.
As for the smaller displacement I4 or V6 -- that was brought up repeatedly in the late 80s and early 90s. 1.8L was often mentioned as the displacement.
jcollins28
08-23-08, 03:11 PM
How much more testing of mufflers does the IRL need to do? They were messing around with putting a couple of Supertrapps (the 4" diameter stack kind) on crapwagons years ago.
If memory serves me correct don't they have to run mufflers at St Pete and Infineon? I thought I had heard that from someone.
So, who's keeping track?: Vision= More road courses, more street courses, turbos, 750 hp, soft/hard compoubnds, (red stripes!?:rofl:, paddles...what am I missing? Standing starts are actually being discussed (unofficially). How 'bout the "Lucky Dog" rule? Methanol? Electric starters! Possible twin turbos too! I've forgotten, why didn't the DP01 get those? I thought it was viewed as a positive move for various reasons. Of course they're now all head-shaking, eye-rolling changes, but I'd have to say positive reunifichanges. For me the most fun so far is Brainfart talking about how turbos are so good for their sweet sound and noise control, especially at the street venues, and power boost control to suit varying tracks! Damn! Why didn't WE think of that!:rofl: Hey, nearly 1/4 of the field is made up of American drivers. Work in progress, I guess?:rolleyes:
miatanut
08-23-08, 04:26 PM
Possible twin turbos too! I've forgotten, why didn't the DP01 get those?
The DP01 was done on a shoestring budget and twin turbos would have required Cosworth to do some engine development.
In my opinion, if they went with a V6, they would be stupid not to go with twin turbos, but really they should go with an I4, 'Indy returns to its heritage', etc...
all of which means it will be a V6 with a single turbo, probably buried in the gearbox so it can cook everything, because the gearbox for it already exists at Hewland, and the tooling probably still exists for all the other stuff.
miatanut
08-23-08, 04:28 PM
It's official! The IRL blows
I thought that was official years ago? :confused:
:D
stroker
08-23-08, 06:52 PM
I thought that was official years ago? :confused:
:D
It was the official consensus years ago. Not yet approved by .1RL management. :)
SurfaceUnits
08-23-08, 07:16 PM
Which was?
To power all the 46 expected cars in 2011 with their LMP2 motor
miatanut
08-23-08, 07:37 PM
It was the official consensus years ago. Not yet approved by .1RL management. :)
:laugh:
this thread reminds me of why sog got banned. dont you guys want turbos in open wheel racing?
extramundane
08-26-08, 10:23 AM
this thread reminds me of why sog got banned. dont you guys want turbos in open wheel racing?
A bit of an oversimplification, don't you think?
A bit of an oversimplification, don't you think?
i dunno. changes are being made to the irl to move it in the direction that you guys want (except :tony: is still in charge). yet every change gets ridiculed.
Michaelhatesfans
08-26-08, 11:03 AM
i dunno. changes are being made to the irl to move it in the direction that you guys want (except :tony: is still in charge). yet every change gets ridiculed.
Every change gets ridiculed? Damn straight! Every change to make it into what it was only reminds me how completely unnecessary the split was in the first place. And all that does is piss me off. Yes, I'm bitter. I make no apologies about that. The man destroyed the sport. Sorry if I'm not full of gratitude about the new rules.
You seem to really underestimate the hate.
Every change gets ridiculed? Damn straight! Every change to make it into what it was only reminds me how completely unnecessary the split was in the first place. And all that does is piss me off. Yes, I'm bitter. I make no apologies about that. The man destroyed the sport. Sorry if I'm not full of gratitude about the new rules.
You seem to really underestimate the hate.
Ditto.
:flame: :tony: :finger:
:irked:
I'll only be happy once the 'copter crashes. :gomer:
-Kevin
JLMannin
08-26-08, 11:15 AM
Every change gets ridiculed? Damn straight! Every change to make it into what it was only reminds me how completely unnecessary the split was in the first place. And all that does is piss me off. Yes, I'm bitter. I make no apologies about that. The man destroyed the sport. Sorry if I'm not full of gratitude about the new rules.
You seem to really underestimate the hate.
My thought exactly - you have stated the position very well
so hating a man that destroyed the sport is more important than enjoyment of the sport? even if they provide you with the entertainment that you desire, you won't like it because of who's in charge?
that'd be like quitting a job that pays you really well, gives you great benefits, and provides work that you enjoy, just because you hate the CEO.
clearly i dont get it as I wasn't an ow fan back at the time of the split. i only got into watching champ car after attending cleveland a few years back.
but it seems like Off Camber shouldn't be "forums for the champcar enthusiast," but be "forums who people who hate Tony George." cuz that's what this place is really about.
clearly i dont get it as I wasn't an ow fan back at the time of the split. i only got into watching champ car after attending cleveland a few years back.
That is the problem. You have no memory of how great the sport used to be.
Many fans have thrown in the towel over the years. We are just the latest group.
That is the problem. You have no memory of how great the sport used to be.
Many fans have thrown in the towel over the years. We are just the latest group.
Browns football was better before Al Lerner and Modell moved the team, but people got over it and enjoy the team for what it is today. (even though we suck)
extramundane
08-26-08, 12:37 PM
Browns football was better before Al Lerner and Modell moved the team, but people got over it and enjoy the team for what it is today. (even though we suck)
That's not really a good analogy, because Browns fans still had the rest of the NFL, and could at least enjoy the sport even if the local boys sucked (or didn't exist at all).
But if Modell decided he wanted to move back to Cleveburg because "they mostly had it right in the first place," I suspect you'd see a fair number of Browns fans tell him to go **** himself with a rusty pitchfork.
Don Quixote
08-26-08, 12:39 PM
Browns football was better before Al Lerner and Modell moved the team, but people got over it and enjoy the team for what it is today. (even though we suck) You've got it backwards. Think of Modell as Tony George. Modell is gone, therefore we can enjoy the Browns. Not the same for OW racing, for which case Art Modell still owns the team. :tony:
Don Quixote
08-26-08, 12:39 PM
That's not really a good analogy, because Browns fans still had the rest of the NFL, and could at least enjoy the sport even if the local boys sucked (or didn't exist at all).
But if Modell decided he wanted to move back to Cleveburg because "they mostly had it right in the first place," I suspect you'd see a fair number of Browns fans tell him to go **** himself with a rusty pitchfork. You beat me to it!
That's not really a good analogy, because Browns fans still had the rest of the NFL, and could at least enjoy the sport even if the local boys sucked (or didn't exist at all).
But if Modell decided he wanted to move back to Cleveburg because "they mostly had it right in the first place," I suspect you'd see a fair number of Browns fans tell him to go **** himself with a rusty pitchfork.
I'd take Modell football over no football.
You've got it backwards. Think of Modell as Tony George. Modell is gone, therefore we can enjoy the Browns. Not the same for OW racing, for which case Art Modell still owns the team. :tony:
Modell doesn't pull off the move without Lerner. Lerner was just as bad as Art in that move and yet we were stuck with him as our owner. He then continued to screw Cleveland with nearly a decade of crap football.
That's not really a good analogy, because Browns fans still had the rest of the NFL, and could at least enjoy the sport even if the local boys sucked (or didn't exist at all).
But if Modell decided he wanted to move back to Cleveburg because "they mostly had it right in the first place," I suspect you'd see a fair number of Browns fans tell him to go **** himself with a rusty pitchfork.
still had the rest of the NFL? I care about other football teams like some of you guys care about Neckar.
That is the problem. You have no memory of how great the sport used to be.
Many fans have thrown in the towel over the years. We are just the latest group.
KD Lang, if you've thrown in the towel, why still comment about it?
That's not really a good analogy, because Browns fans still had the rest of the NFL, and could at least enjoy the sport even if the local boys sucked (or didn't exist at all).
But if Modell decided he wanted to move back to Cleveburg because "they mostly had it right in the first place," I suspect you'd see a fair number of Browns fans tell him to go **** himself with a rusty pitchfork.
If Modell tried to walk the streets in Cleveland today, he'd be lynched in a NY minute.
Stu, right now the racing sucks. The cars are butt ugly, they sound like farting bees, and there are really only a few teams that are actually competitive. :tony: can try to make C^RT II out of the EARL, but after 10+ years, the damage has been done, Indy is a shadow of what it once was and the rest of the season is just apathy amplified. Maybe when a new spec is released in '11 things will change for the better, but I'm not holding my breath. There really needs to be some new blood (drivers, owners) in US OW racing, but where is that going to come from if teams like PCM can't make a go of it? And the guys racing in the ladder series have no chance of landing a ride with a decent team. The exodus to cabs, etc. will just continue. It is what it is, I guess. *shrug*
-Kevin
If Modell tried to walk the streets in Cleveland today, he'd be lynched in a NY minute.
Stu, right now the racing sucks. The cars are butt ugly, they sound like farting bees, and there are really only a few teams that are actually competitive. :tony: can try to make C^RT II out of the EARL, but after 10+ years, the damage has been done, Indy is a shadow of what it once was and the rest of the season is just apathy amplified. Maybe when a new spec is released in '11 things will change for the better, but I'm not holding my breath. There really needs to be some new blood (drivers, owners) in US OW racing, but where is that going to come from if teams like PCM can't make a go of it? And the guys racing in the ladder series have no chance of landing a ride with a decent team. The exodus to cabs, etc. will just continue. It is what it is, I guess. *shrug*
-Kevin
so it sucks now (i agree)
good news comes out about the future
people complain that the good news is actually stupid, even though the changes are what want from open wheel racing (outside of :tony: 's chopper crashing apparently).
makes a lot of sense. :thumdown:
gerhard911
08-26-08, 01:07 PM
clearly i dont get it as I wasn't an ow fan back at the time of the split.
Yet you feel compelled to lecture those of us who had been fans for decades ? Yes, something in this thread does remind of sog :shakehead
Yet you feel compelled to lecture those of us who had been fans for decades ? Yes, something in this thread does remind of sog :shakehead
not lecturing, questioning.
Michaelhatesfans
08-26-08, 01:12 PM
so hating a man that destroyed the sport is more important than enjoyment of the sport? even if they provide you with the entertainment that you desire, you won't like it because of who's in charge?
that'd be like quitting a job that pays you really well, gives you great benefits, and provides work that you enjoy, just because you hate the CEO.
But Tony's not my CEO. I'm the customer.
If a chef spits in my food I don't go back to that restaurant, no matter how much he changes the menu.
Michaelhatesfans
08-26-08, 01:15 PM
not lecturing, questioning.
"people complain that the good news is actually stupid, even though the changes are what want from open wheel racing (outside of 's chopper crashing apparently).
makes a lot of sense."
Interesting line of "questioning."
KD Lang, if you've thrown in the towel, why still comment about it?
I don't much anymore. I seldom post in the race threads as I don't watch. I'm mostly here for the off-topic threads these days.
"people complain that the good news is actually stupid, even though the changes are what want from open wheel racing (outside of 's chopper crashing apparently).
makes a lot of sense."
Interesting line of "questioning."
nope, at that point it was a conclusion based on how you guys responded to my questioning. ;)
people complain that the good news is actually stupid, even though the changes are what want from open wheel racing
It's stupid in the context of how we got to this point.
If Gooddell decided to make the NFL a flag football league tomorrow, I can assure you that there wouldn't be many fans continuing to watch. In essence, that's how dumbed down the IRL became compared to C^RT's heyday. No ****.
-Kevin
But Tony's not my CEO. I'm the customer.
If a chef spits in my food I don't go back to that restaurant, no matter how much he changes the menu.
and a dozen years later, you'll still be on a forum poking fun at the restaurant and chef.
Michaelhatesfans
08-26-08, 01:38 PM
and a dozen years later, you'll still be on a forum poking fun at the restaurant and chef.
Yes, that's what I'm doing. You, on the other hand, are enjoying your big bowl of phlegm and wondering why no one is sitting at the other tables.
Yes, that's what I'm doing. You, on the other hand, are enjoying your big bowl of phlegm and wondering why no one is sitting at the other tables.
if you've seen a lap of :tony: racing this year it's more than me.
so hating a man that destroyed the sport is more important than enjoyment of the sport?
This man you speak of destroyed the enjoyment of the sport.
Would a Ferrari still be a Ferrari if it became a Yugo with red paint? Would YOU buy into this Yugo-ized Ferrari....and drive it all over town acting like it's a TRUE bred Ferrari tearing up the streets with your 50hp? The IRL is an imposter, a fake, a sham. Apparently you don't know any better....that's sad, for you.
Stu
Just so might understand the hate.
I watched OW since the 60's when all you could get was ABC Wide World of Sports coverage 2 weeks late. I followed Can Am and watched as those teams formed CART in the late 70's.
Things were going quite well throught the 80's as more venues and teams poured in. I never missed a race on tv and recorded most of them as well. (Just threw out a whole bunch of VHS from the late 80's early 90's). I attended races at Nazareth,NHIS,the Meadowlands, Mid Ohio, and Elkhart Lake many years running.
OW was where is was at until the Idiot Grandson screwed the whole thing up.:flame:
Over the years of the split I watched less and less. Last year I sort of watched but didn't care if I missed a race. This year I haven't watched one IRL race, I watch ALMS if at all. As many before have stated the entire thing stinks,it's TG's fault and I don't care if it all goes in the dumper. Perhaps the teams migrating to ALMS will once again form a viable circuit that I'll want to watch.
Some of us go wayyyy back in hating all things :tony: and any attempt at changing back to where is was before he effed it up is going to be met with a whole boatload of "it wasn't broke in the 1st place moron".
This man you speak of destroyed the enjoyment of the sport.
this
:(
but it seems like Off Camber shouldn't be "forums for the champcar enthusiast," but be "forums who people who hate Tony George." cuz that's what this place is really about.
It appears to me that the Bosses have allowed AOW discussions to continue. Even if they are about the earl.
It's just that there's really nothing much to discuss, except how bad the earl is.
The laughter and "hate" are people commenting on what a sham the original Vision was. Welcome to CART II.
I'll step right up to the precipice. (I'll even look down. Oooo, scary.)
If the earl adopts a formula that returns racing to it's early 90's glory, I will watch. I will become a fan. Some will not. That's ok with me.
I will hate FTG. Always.
What's chances of this happening with the idiot in charge?
The racing sucks right now, and will for some time, but if you want to be a fan, I still think that the Bosses have a place for you here. But I don't speak for them.
WickerBill
08-26-08, 05:41 PM
Stu, have you ever gone by the name silva?
Stu, have you ever gone by the name silva?
:rofl:
:eek:
:irked:
:saywhat:
-Kevin
so it sucks now (i agree)
good news comes out about the future
people complain that the good news is actually stupid, even though the changes are what want from open wheel racing (outside of :tony: 's chopper crashing apparently).
makes a lot of sense. :thumdown:
Some news came out about the future direction of Indycars.
In your opinion it was good news, not in mine.
miatanut
08-26-08, 10:13 PM
Every change gets ridiculed? Damn straight! Every change to make it into what it was only reminds me how completely unnecessary the split was in the first place. And all that does is piss me off. Yes, I'm bitter. I make no apologies about that. The man destroyed the sport. Sorry if I'm not full of gratitude about the new rules.
You seem to really underestimate the hate.
A triple llama for that! :thumbup:
miatanut
08-26-08, 10:23 PM
so hating a man that destroyed the sport is more important than enjoyment of the sport? even if they provide you with the entertainment that you desire, you won't like it because of who's in charge?
that'd be like quitting a job that pays you really well, gives you great benefits, and provides work that you enjoy, just because you hate the CEO.
This is a question I'm asking myself lately, as the new "vision" moves closer and closer to the appearance of CART, which we were told was headed so far in the wrong direction that it was necessary to create a new oval-based series "with more of an American flavor."
I've decided that if we have multiple chassis, multiple engines, two tires, a schedule full of healthy venues, 28 cars minimum at every race, and some teams getting sent home before the main event because there isn't enough space in the pits or on the track for them, household name sponsors plastered all over the cars, bleachers that are so full nobody even has enough space to put their beer down, but Tony still controls it, then I will come back. If that were to happen, the sport would be back to where it was before he blew everything up because CART had denied him his divine right to control the sport. Everything would be back to the way it was with the exception of the people who actually make the sport go having control over its direction.
At that point, Tony would have repudiated every thing he said and held out the IRL to be.
I don't think I will ever have to worry about facing that dilemma. Tony is incapable of running anything that successful.
Stu, have you ever gone by the name silva?
Not enough of these....>>> <<<
devilmaster
08-27-08, 12:21 AM
if you've seen a lap of :tony: racing this year it's more than me.
That proves right there that you're only out to cause ****, get yourself banned, and you and SOG can go circle jerk each other and say 'hey we were proved right! The mods at OC are a bunch of quick to ban bastards....'
Either that, or you really just don't get it.... and then why are you here?
and a dozen years later, you'll still be on a forum poking fun at the restaurant and chef.
To continue that analogy you're sitting on a forum poking fun at a type of cuisine that you never eat. :rolleyes:
So in cuisine speak, eat ****, ****er.
u2 sog.
That proves right there that you're only out to cause ****, get yourself banned, and you and SOG can go circle jerk each other and say 'hey we were proved right! The mods at OC are a bunch of quick to ban bastards....'
Either that, or you really just don't get it.... and then why are you here?
So because I don't watch the IRL, I shouldn't be here, on a forum about Champ Car? Is that really your stance?
If it wasn't for the intelligent posts by sadams, G., and Miatanut on this page of the thread, you would have just proven that this is a "forum for people who hate Tony George" rather than a forum for champcar enthusiasts.
To continue that analogy you're sitting on a forum poking fun at a type of cuisine that you never eat. :rolleyes:
So in cuisine speak, eat ****, ****er.
u2 sog.
These analogies are getting out of hand. But if I understand correctly, the analogy is that food equals CART, and I haven't made fun of CART.
Stu, have you ever gone by the name silva?
I laughed. :D
Some news came out about the future direction of Indycars.
In your opinion it was good news, not in mine.
Why not?
I checked back and noticed you didn't post a comment on the first page.
Ed_Severson
08-27-08, 08:24 AM
I've decided that if we have multiple chassis, multiple engines, two tires, a schedule full of healthy venues, 28 cars minimum at every race, and some teams getting sent home before the main event because there isn't enough space in the pits or on the track for them, household name sponsors plastered all over the cars, bleachers that are so full nobody even has enough space to put their beer down, but Tony still controls it, then I will come back. If that were to happen, the sport would be back to where it was before he blew everything up because CART had denied him his divine right to control the sport. Everything would be back to the way it was with the exception of the people who actually make the sport go having control over its direction.
At that point, Tony would have repudiated every thing he said and held out the IRL to be.
Two points to ponder here ...
1. Among chassis/engine/tire competition, a healthy schedule, bountiful sponsorship, etc., you throw in "bleachers that are so full nobody even has enough space to put their beer down." Why? Is it really that important to you that something must be wildly popular before you can enjoy it?
2. This one was brought up to me a couple weeks ago, and I can honestly say I hadn't really thought about things this way before. Obviously, we can all agree that the creation of the IRL was wholly unnecessary and amounted to nothing more than a power grab by Tony George. However, many people seem to be completely incapable of accepting the IRL -- no matter how much it resembles CART -- in part because they perceive George to be a hypocrite because many of the so-called founding principles of the series have gone by the wayside. But really, is he hypocritical or just guilty of lying early on about what was important to him?
In 1996, he had to offer something that was unique in the marketplace. Had he tried to run a series that looked like CART at the time, it would have been doomed, because there already was a series like that. Now, in 2008, he's free to move the IRL back in that direction if he feels that CART was a viable product -- and I'd say he clearly does, based on the trends of the last 24 months or so. In fact he's been doing that for the last 5 years, as the end days of CART and subsequently Champ Car moved further and further away from what CART was it its pinnacle. So, essentially, he spent 13 years sticking to one principle -- he should be in charge -- and lying when he had to in order to accomplish that. This makes him no different than pretty much anyone else in motorsport except that unlike most, he had the capital to make a play for the whole ball of wax.
I'm not ever going to be a fan of the guy, but at some point you have to learn to separate the sport from the idiots who run it. IndyCar 2008 still has a lot of room for improvement but it's not that bad, and there are a lot of signs that it is going to get progressively better, at least if CART is the model you're comparing it to -- and I think we all have that in common.
Why not?
I checked back and noticed you didn't post a comment on the first page.
First post in this thread was at 10pm Saturday, my time. By the time I got to have a chance to add my two cents, it would have been sometime Sunday night. I did post in the turbo thread at Smackforum Sunday night, but not here. Your first post was at 12am, my time. Mine was at noon, first chance....
The turbo news was, to me, just an attempt drag the CART fans back by copying everything CART was in 1995.
The ICS should get a carnival barker to annouce the details;
TURBO'S, TURBO'S, GET YOUR TURBO'S HERE. WE'VE GOT TURBOCHARGERS. TYRES, TYRES, GET YOUR TYRES HERE. SOFT, HARD, WE GOT 'EM ALL. STANDING STARTS, STANDING STARTS.... :rolleyes:
As I asked at Smack, what if Honda does not want play turbochargers? What then?
Briggs and Stratton makes a spiffy turbocharged diesel that looks a treat.
I'm not ever going to be a fan of the guy, but at some point you have to learn to separate the sport from the idiots who run it. IndyCar 2008 still has a lot of room for improvement but it's not that bad, and there are a lot of signs that it is going to get progressively better, at least if CART is the model you're comparing it to -- and I think we all have that in common.
Ed, I took a lot of flack from some of my friends for being willing to give Indy Car a chance at the beginning of this year. Despite all TG has done, I watched with an open mind. Bottom line: it sucks, and it sucks in ways that go deeper than just the flatulent, hideous, pig of a car. Basically, TG and his management have demonstrated their unwillingness or inability to see the series as actual motorsport and have continued to behave like con men. They are selling crap and they know it, and they don't care. They are P.T. Barnum wannabes with all of his ethics and none of his talent.
IMO the sport can never return to the greatness it once had if the people in charge think only one race on the schedule matters. I don't see that ever changing while FTG is in charge.
Michaelhatesfans
08-27-08, 10:09 AM
...this is a "forum for people who hate Tony George" rather than a forum for champcar enthusiasts.
I don't know how you can separate those two things.
Michaelhatesfans
08-27-08, 10:12 AM
If it wasn't for the intelligent posts by sadams, G., and Miatanut on this page of the thread...
Absolutely. Miatanut gave me a triple llama. He's a wise man.
I've no idea what he meant by that, but I figure hey, it's better than two llamas.
:thumbup:
Ed_Severson
08-27-08, 10:20 AM
You gave it about a month before you gave up on it. I'm not sure how open-minded that is. If you were expecting all of the things you dislike about IndyCar to change overnight, it's no wonder you were disappointed. It's going to take a few years at minimum to get things back to the way they should be, but there are some signs that we're headed that way.
The recent engine news is good -- seems like either a 4-cylinder twin turbo or a V6 single turbo will be the next gen engine, and the most appealing platform to the auto manufacturers. That suggests the possibility of (gasp!) competition and an influx of money -- both good things. It also gives the series a versatile package to work with to strike a better balance on performance from road/street to oval.
Chassis is still wait and see, but a move in the direction of less downforce and less drag will be a good sign. Competition is a must on that front.
The schedule is moving back towards a good balance of streets, roads, and ovals. Long Beach, Toronto, and Edmonton are on board; seems like Portland, Cleveland, and Road America are possibilities for the future when current contracts expire. They need to get back to another superspeedway and hopefully a couple flat ovals in lieu of the high-banked 1.5 milers, but those are the tracks that are available now.
Competition should be better next year as the ex-Champ Car teams get a full offseason to sort out the cars. Looking at the drivers, I think Dixon, Wheldon, Castroneves, Briscoe, Kanaan, Andretti, Wilson, Rahal, Meira, Junqueira, Hunter-Reay, Power, and Servia make a pretty good top couple of tiers. Danica is pretty competitive when AGR gives her a good car; Mutoh has shown some ability too. Viso could be very good if they can calm him down a little. Been a long time since we saw that many legitimately talented drivers in one open-wheel series.
The most frustrating thing to me so far is that they seem to have some genuine interest in some of the gimmicks that Champ Car was employing. I don't really think standing starts will be implemented, but they're at least tossing the idea around. Non-optional option tires are almost certain for 2009. Push to pass is under consideration for 2011+. Personally, I'd like to see rolling starts, two compounds available with the teams having the freedom to run whatever compound they want whenever they want, and the current fuel mixture control to stick around, but we'll see what happens.
The most frustrating thing to me so far is that they seem to have some genuine interest in some of the gimmicks that Champ Car was employing. I don't really think standing starts will be implemented, but they're at least tossing the idea around. Non-optional option tires are almost certain for 2009. Push to pass is under consideration for 2011+. Personally, I'd like to see rolling starts, two compounds available with the teams having the freedom to run whatever compound they want whenever they want, and the current fuel mixture control to stick around, but we'll see what happens.
Performance issues aside, have you seen one of their broadcasts? The publics perception is swayed each time Marty Reid or Goodyear opens their traps...or Danica cam comes on....or they do a public interest piece on Dan's shoe collection, or Helio's dancing, or whatever hokey BS they can dream up.
Look, I never bought into "come on baby take a ride with me" crap they used to push but IF they want to be taken seriously by fans of the sport (or anyone else that matters in the high reaches of the cable universe) they need to start acting like a real racing series. Thats the damage that's hard to overcome even with new cars engines and performance: The IRLs image SUCKS, and they work hard to make it that way everyday. In their desperate attempt for publicity they jumped the shark SO many times and will forever be paying for it. Massive turnoff for this fan who just can't develop a taste for the IRLs unsophistcated behavior...Yuk!
Ed_Severson
08-27-08, 11:11 AM
On TV I've missed Motegi and Milwaukee, and I don't think I saw Indy or Kentucky because I was at the events and didn't bother to record them while I was at the track. You'll get absolutely no argument from me -- their broadcasts are painful. I'm 100% in favor of stuffing Marty Reid, Scott Goodyear, Bob Jenkins, Jack Arute, and Brienne Pedigo into a spacecraft bound for eternal orbit around Neptune.
The good news is that the Versus deal gives them a chance to come up with a fresh broadcast team and try some different approaches to airing the races. I think expanding the timeslot to 3 hours and having a qualifying show could go a long way towards solving some of those problems -- they can focus on the race while it's going on, and worry about the pedantic human interest stuff during pre-race, post-race, or lulls in qualifying activity.
The bad news, of course, is that not many people will see it.
That said, I have a hard time faulting them for the way they're marketing the drivers. They're doing it incorrectly, in my opinion, but **** ... at least they're trying, which is more than we ever got out of Champ Car.
Small victories, I guess.
Sean Malone
08-27-08, 11:32 AM
You gave it about a month before you gave up on it. I'm not sure how open-minded that is.
I've been giving it 13 years....still sucks. ;)
I even went to St Pete this year. There were many aspects that felt like a CART race of old (track, pit and padock environment), but the cars, the car performance and Danikle all suck.
I'm trying to hang in there though.
Napoleon
08-27-08, 11:50 AM
Stu, have you ever gone by the name silva?
Wickerbill for the score!
SurfaceUnits
08-27-08, 12:11 PM
irl fans still complain about daylight savings time :gomer:
miatanut
08-27-08, 12:39 PM
Two points to ponder here ...
1. Among chassis/engine/tire competition, a healthy schedule, bountiful sponsorship, etc., you throw in "bleachers that are so full nobody even has enough space to put their beer down." Why? Is it really that important to you that something must be wildly popular before you can enjoy it?
2. This one was brought up to me a couple weeks ago, and I can honestly say I hadn't really thought about things this way before. Obviously, we can all agree that the creation of the IRL was wholly unnecessary and amounted to nothing more than a power grab by Tony George. However, many people seem to be completely incapable of accepting the IRL -- no matter how much it resembles CART -- in part because they perceive George to be a hypocrite because many of the so-called founding principles of the series have gone by the wayside. But really, is he hypocritical or just guilty of lying early on about what was important to him?
In 1996, he had to offer something that was unique in the marketplace. Had he tried to run a series that looked like CART at the time, it would have been doomed, because there already was a series like that. Now, in 2008, he's free to move the IRL back in that direction if he feels that CART was a viable product -- and I'd say he clearly does, based on the trends of the last 24 months or so. In fact he's been doing that for the last 5 years, as the end days of CART and subsequently Champ Car moved further and further away from what CART was it its pinnacle. So, essentially, he spent 13 years sticking to one principle -- he should be in charge -- and lying when he had to in order to accomplish that. This makes him no different than pretty much anyone else in motorsport except that unlike most, he had the capital to make a play for the whole ball of wax.
I'm not ever going to be a fan of the guy, but at some point you have to learn to separate the sport from the idiots who run it. IndyCar 2008 still has a lot of room for improvement but it's not that bad, and there are a lot of signs that it is going to get progressively better, at least if CART is the model you're comparing it to -- and I think we all have that in common.
Most of the music I like is foreign stuff hardly anybody else listens to.
I don't watch much TV, but it's very rare for a show I like to be popular.
My political candidates usually lose :irked:.
I finally got a cell phone two years ago (they were all over the place here in Seattle from the early '90's and I used to notice how few there were in LA when I would go there), and it only comes out of my pocket when I need to use it.
I don't feel any need for the things I like to be popular or to follow along with the crowd.
On the other hand, lots of butts in the seats brings things like lots of great food to the track (been a few years since we've had that), and provides the sport with the resources needed for the fabulous excess (of engineering) that I used to enjoy. It's a hardship to me if I don't have space to put my beer down, or I'm pretty much locked in my seat because it's too hard to get anywhere, but it allows the sport to do things it couldn't otherwise, so it's something I'd like to see again.
I do have an issue with Tony's lies, even though I saw through them from the beginning (and couldn't stand him starting in '92). Dan Gurney didn't lie at all. He came out and said 'IMS is screwing us over and we need to band together and "It appears that a 'show down' with the Indianapolis Motor Speedway is or should be the first target. " No lies there!
The second thing I have a major issue with is that he was willing to bring the entire sport down in order to control it, and refused all efforts of the other side and third parties to negotiate a compromise when it was clear the sport was well along the road to ruin.
I hope the teams find their balls again at some point and take the sport back. Motorsport does best when it is being run by gearheads.
miatanut
08-27-08, 12:41 PM
Absolutely. Miatanut gave me a triple llama. He's a wise man.
I've no idea what he meant by that, but I figure hey, it's better than two llamas.
:thumbup:
Three llamas is the most I ever give out at the "racing obscenity forum."
miatanut
08-27-08, 12:46 PM
The most frustrating thing to me so far is that they seem to have some genuine interest in some of the gimmicks that Champ Car was employing. I don't really think standing starts will be implemented, but they're at least tossing the idea around.
Standing starts brought a major reduction in T1 carnage, everybody got the benefits of the position they qualified for, and it was pretty damned impressive when they were all revving a couple seconds before taking off.
What's not to like about standing starts?
You gave it about a month before you gave up on it. I'm not sure how open-minded that is. If you were expecting all of the things you dislike about IndyCar to change overnight, it's no wonder you were disappointed. It's going to take a few years at minimum to get things back to the way they should be, but there are some signs that we're headed that way.
How much effort does anyone owe it? When I originally became a fan I didn't make any effort besides following motorsports in general and then focusing on Champ car because that was the series that offered the kind of racing I was interested in.
Things have changed since then. Motorsport in general has become less compelling. Maybe it's my own interests, or the evolution of the sport, or just NASCAR hegemony, but I shouldn't have to make an effort to be interested in something.
Even aside from that, I doubt that Indycar will ever be the same for me. No matter how much they try to reinvent the series that made the sport successful, everything is tainted by the provincial attitudes and small mindedness of the people now running the sport.
Ed_Severson
08-27-08, 01:03 PM
I don't feel any need for the things I like to be popular or to follow along with the crowd.
It's a hardship to me if I don't have space to put my beer down, or I'm pretty much locked in my seat because it's too hard to get anywhere, but it allows the sport to do things it couldn't otherwise, so it's something I'd like to see again.
Fair enough, but if that's the case, why even bring it up? You mentioned it as a condition for you becoming a fan of the series, not something that you think needs to happen for the sport to be successful. That doesn't make any sense.
What's not to like about standing starts?
For starters, it's not consistent with the way the races begin on ovals. I think they make more sense in a series that's exclusively road and street racing, just not with a series that runs ovals as well. Aside from that, there's nothing inherently wrong with rolling starts, and they're part of the history of the sport.
How much effort does anyone owe it?
None, and I'm not arguing that anybody owes anybody else anything. I'm merely making the point that when you're talking about what is -- at absolute best case scenario -- a 4-year process, getting a month into it, throwing your hands up because we're not there yet and then patting yourself on the back for your open-mindedness rings a little hollow.
SurfaceUnits
08-27-08, 01:07 PM
The Indy Car Series Presented by Versus on DirecTV Channel 603
miatanut
08-27-08, 01:15 PM
Fair enough, but if that's the case, why even bring it up? You mentioned it as a condition for you becoming a fan of the series, not something that you think needs to happen for the sport to be successful. That doesn't make any sense.
Why bring it up? My point was if the sport was in every way as successful as it was before Tony blew it up, but Tony was still running the sport, would I still stay away? I've decided I would come back.
For starters, it's not consistent with the way the races begin on ovals. I think they make more sense in a series that's exclusively road and street racing, just not with a series that runs ovals as well. Aside from that, there's nothing inherently wrong with rolling starts, and they're part of the history of the sport.
Standing starts are pointless on an oval. It's easy to pass on an oval. There is nothing to fight for at T1. I doubt they are even talking about them for ovals. It would be for road/street/temporary venues. I think rolling starts on ovals and standing starts on road/street/temporary venues would add to the 'all-around driving champion' concept of American open wheel.
Insomniac
08-27-08, 01:16 PM
From my perspective, the IRL is pretty hated. As such, they have to prove that they can put out a good product. I'm not going to see an announcement about turbos, a new car, etc. and get excited. They haven't earned that hopefulness from me in any way. CART/CC was once great, the IRL never was anything besides crap.
Ed_Severson
08-27-08, 01:30 PM
Standing starts are pointless on an oval. I doubt they are even talking about them for ovals.
Nobody's suggesting otherwise. What I'm saying is that employing standing starts on road courses and street circuits and rolling starts on ovals is a stupid, stupid idea.
If you want to take it to a logical extreme, why bother with rolling restarts? Why not just line them up on the grid and cue the lights after every caution?
cameraman
08-27-08, 01:38 PM
I don't know who the IRL is marketing their series to but it sure isn't me. I can't understand their insistence on making the drivers out to be idiots in every bit of pr material they produce. The mechanical aspects of the series are horrible at the moment and the IRL's attitude toward the contestants and the fans makes things even worse. I have no faith that they will ever rebuild the series to a level that I would find compelling given the mindset of the fools that are making the decisions today.
Their product is crap yet their attitude is pure condescension towards anyone who might watch. **** them.
cameraman
08-27-08, 01:40 PM
What I'm saying is that employing standing starts on road courses and street circuits and rolling starts on ovals is a stupid, stupid idea.
Why? Tracks are different, the cars are different (or at least they used be different:irked:), there is no reason that every race has to be cookie cutter.
Ed_Severson
08-27-08, 01:49 PM
Why?
Because. :p
Look ... it's just a personal preference, but it doesn't make sense to me to start half the races one way and half the races another way. It's a pointless complication that, in my opinion, doesn't serve any useful purpose. It smacks of reactionism, and it's in response to an imaginary problem.
SurfaceUnits
08-27-08, 02:41 PM
I'm with Ed on this one. Who wants to hear 20+ crapwagons rev up for a standing start. Keep up the fight Ed.
miatanut
08-27-08, 02:42 PM
Nobody's suggesting otherwise. What I'm saying is that employing standing starts on road courses and street circuits and rolling starts on ovals is a stupid, stupid idea.
If you want to take it to a logical extreme, why bother with rolling restarts? Why not just line them up on the grid and cue the lights after every caution?
Tell us how you feel!
There were a lot of people vehemently against CCWS adopting standing starts. As someone who found F1 as a kid four years before I found Indy, they are a perfectly natural way to start a race, as any drag racer will tell you.
I like variety. Standing and rolling in the same series would be a step in the right direction, in my opinion.
Just another evolution of the Veeshun.
extramundane
08-27-08, 02:58 PM
Why not just line them up on the grid and cue the lights after every caution?
For the love of god, Ed, don't give them any ideas. Barnhart couldn't line up a hooker in Vegas, let alone a standing restart.
I don't know who the IRL is marketing their series to but it sure isn't me. I can't understand their insistence on making the drivers out to be idiots in every bit of pr material they produce. The mechanical aspects of the series are horrible at the moment and the IRL's attitude toward the contestants and the fans makes things even worse. I have no faith that they will ever rebuild the series to a level that I would find compelling given the mindset of the fools that are making the decisions today.
Their product is crap yet their attitude is pure condescension towards anyone who might watch. **** them.
What he said. :thumbup:
For the love of god, Ed, don't give them any ideas. Barnhart couldn't line up a hooker in Vegas, let alone a standing restart.
They should let FTG handle all of the lines.
:p
Ed_Severson
08-27-08, 03:19 PM
For the love of god, Ed, don't give them any ideas. Barnhart couldn't line up a hooker in Vegas, let alone a standing restart.
:laugh:
cameraman
08-27-08, 03:28 PM
It's a pointless complication that, in my opinion, doesn't serve any useful purpose.
Having followed F1 for 30+ years I find the rolling starts on road courses to be the pointless complication that doesn't serve any useful purpose.
Ed_Severson
08-27-08, 03:47 PM
Having followed F1 for 30+ years I find the rolling starts on road courses to be the pointless complication that doesn't serve any useful purpose.
Unfortunately your position suffers from carrying the burden of demonstrating a compelling reason for change. Same thing if I were to argue for rolling starts in F1 ... unless there's an overwhelming reason for doing it differently, why bother?
And, of course, given that rolling starts are already the norm on ovals, using rolling starts on road courses doesn't introduce any complication at all, so your attempt to turn the phrase "pointless complication" on its ear falls short there. :gomer:
Insomniac
08-27-08, 04:38 PM
Unfortunately your position suffers from carrying the burden of demonstrating a compelling reason for change. Same thing if I were to argue for rolling starts in F1 ... unless there's an overwhelming reason for doing it differently, why bother?
And, of course, given that rolling starts are already the norm on ovals, using rolling starts on road courses doesn't introduce any complication at all, so your attempt to turn the phrase "pointless complication" on its ear falls short there. :gomer:
Didn't L1T1 accidents go down dramatically in CC with the standing starts? Wouldn't that be an overwhelming reason. I understand from a historical perspective, rolling starts are the norm, but form a diversity aspect of the sport's heyday (variety of course and equipment), a variety in starts is another thing to add. I personally like that variety, however, I wouldn't want to hear those engines revving on a standing start!
cameraman
08-27-08, 04:39 PM
And, of course, given that rolling starts are already the norm on ovals, using rolling starts on road courses doesn't introduce any complication at all, so your attempt to turn the phrase "pointless complication" on its ear falls short there. :gomer:
Other than rolling starts on road courses were quite often complete and utter crap with cars strung out over half the track when the green dropped.
Ed_Severson
08-27-08, 05:03 PM
Didn't L1T1 accidents go down dramatically in CC with the standing starts? Wouldn't that be an overwhelming reason.
When balanced against the inevitable stall outs on the grid, not really. It's racing ... **** happens. There will always be first corner incidents because drivers are human.
http://gadgetfreaks.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/ralf_michael_schumacher_2002_melbourne_26_jpg.jpg
Other than rolling starts on road courses were quite often complete and utter crap with cars strung out over half the track when the green dropped.
You've missed the point again. The complication comes into play because you're proposing two different ways to start the races -- at present there's only one, thus no complication is introduced.
And again, you're scapegoating rolling starts as inherently bad, which is nonsense. There are plenty of races in the history books that had beautifully-executed rolling starts -- it's down to the drivers having a clear understanding of what's required of them and the officials having the guts to assess penalties when directions aren't followed. Faulting the method for the misexecution of the participants is exactly the sort of reactionary knee-jerk move the IRL should strive to avoid. There are plenty of ways to **** up standing starts too ... one is no better than the other.
Any standing start proponents want to take a stab at justifying their use at the beginning of the race but not in the middle? When we're done maybe we can have a go at explaining why those evil rolling starts lead to more first corner crashes even though the cars are "strung out over half the track!" :gomer:
miatanut
08-27-08, 05:03 PM
Didn't L1T1 accidents go down dramatically in CC with the standing starts? Wouldn't that be an overwhelming reason?
Don't confuse the discussion with facts! :laugh:
miatanut
08-27-08, 05:07 PM
Any standing start proponents want to take a stab at justifying their use at the beginning of the race but not in the middle?
I'll give it a go! The engines would all get fried while everybody was queuing up. The cars would be stopped a lot longer than a pit stop, and the engines would be on, not off.
Ed_Severson
08-27-08, 05:10 PM
I'll give it a go! The engines would all get fried while everybody was queuing up. The cars would be stopped a lot longer than a pit stop, and the engines would be on, not off.
So shut 'em off and send the crews out with starter guns one minute before the lights come on.
Next excuse ...
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