NFL 2008

[Insomniac]

I wouldn't exactly call it an uproar. The local papers gave it a couple of inches of type in the sports page. A couple of groups were making noise over it.

In the end the Mara's and Tisch's generally are very concerned about their fans and public opinion (Wellington was in particular. It killed him to see fans burning their tickets back in the 70s and never took fans for granted), so they stepped away from the negotiation.

The short of it is they can get any number of companies to pay $25 million a year without risking alienating even a few fans. Some might see that as cowardly, but the Mara's are in the business of football and keeping their fans happy, not social causes.

Now if they could just get someone to pay $100 million a year so they can drop the ridiculous PSL they stuck on their fans. Wellington would never have done that.

Is their any corporation out there that is 100% OK with everyone. People could protest anything. Is the attachment of "Nazi" the real problem vs. the number of people that would be upset?

[Insomniac]

After week 2,

AFC teams still defeated:

Bengals
Dolphins
Browns
Chargers
Jaguars
Chiefs
Texans

NFC teams still defeated:

Lions
Seahawks
Vikings
Rams

I can't believe Indy isn't on that list. Brad Childress is an idiot.

[Andrew Longman]

Is their any corporation out there that is 100% OK with everyone. People could protest anything. Is the attachment of "Nazi" the real problem vs. the number of people that would be upset?

There are plenty of organizations out there with 0% to do with Nazi Germany. Just no need for them to to go there.

Probably can endure complaints about companies with a less that perfect child labor or environmental record or who has too large of carbon footprint.

[Insomniac]

There are plenty of organizations out there with 0% to do with Nazi Germany. Just no need for them to to go there.

Probably can endure complaints about companies with a less that perfect child labor or environmental record or who has too large of carbon footprint.

So it's not about making some fans mad, just choosing what you are OK with newspapers printing about the sponsor.

[Andrew Longman]

So it's not about making some fans mad, just choosing what you are OK with newspapers printing about the sponsor.

Perhaps both. I think they just want to keep it real and about football. They don't want to be standing next to anything that distracts from that or that doesn't seem totally benign and cool.

[WickerBill]

Embarrassing way for my Broncos to win that game... but it sure was a fun game to watch.

[extramundane]

DeSean Jackson = :gomer:

:rofl:

[dando]

Hope you weren't blown away by the Bungles Sun, boss. :gomer: :shakehead :saywhat:

Since when did David Shula come back to coach in Cincy? :saywhat: :irked: :thumdown:

-Kevin

[Sean Malone]

Since when has the NFL and or tv channels started hiring sport junky radio teams to call the games. I've only been able to catch four games so far this year but each one of their broadcast teams were so bad I had to turn the sound off.

[IlliniRacer]

http://www.joesportsfan.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/08MFC/rams_inspirational_satisfaction.jpg

[dando]

Since when has the NFL and or tv channels started hiring sport junky radio teams to call the games. I've only been able to catch four games so far this year but each one of their broadcast teams were so bad I had to turn the sound off.

Don Criqui did the Bungles game on Sun and he managed to make Dan Fouts sound like a genius. :saywhat: I used to like Criqui and Trumpy back in the day, but Jeebus he's bad now. :irked:

-Kevin

[Don Quixote]

Don Criqui did the Bungles game on Sun and he managed to make Dan Fouts sound like a genius. :saywhat: I used to like Criqui and Trumpy back in the day, but Jeebus he's bad now. :irked:

-Kevin I can tolerate exactly 2.2 seconds of Dan Fouts. Then the sound goes off. :yuck:

[TKGAngel]

I wish the networks wouldn't assign former players to broadcast games of the teams they used to play for. Steve Tasker was trying so hard to be impartial during the Bills game that it made listening to him cringeworthy.

[Ankf00]

Evil Roy broke his arm.

Dallas' D just got a lot better :\

[TKGAngel]

Second consecutive come-from-behind win for the Bills. My heart can't take much more of this.

[dando]

Detroit :laugh: :shakehead :saywhat:

If Millen continues to have a job after this season, a Federal investigation should ensue.

-Kevin

[Ankf00]

bungles made it a game. Eli puts away the W.

[Insomniac]

Detroit :laugh: :shakehead :saywhat:

If Millen continues to have a job after this season, a Federal investigation should ensue.

-Kevin

The Ford family owns the Lions. Why would you think they'd hire a competent executive in one of their businesses? :D

[Insomniac]

bungles made it a game. Eli puts away the W.

:thumbup: to two consecutive deep balls on 2nd and 3rd and 10s in OT.

[dando]

:thumbup: to two consecutive deep balls on 2nd and 3rd and 10s in OT.

Whoe Dey? Who Else?

@ least I got a Who Dey from a fellow Bungle in Penn Station today...errrr, yesterday. :)

-Kevin:)

[Ankf00]

:thumbup: to two consecutive deep balls on 2nd and 3rd and 10s in OT.

Kevin Gilbride ftw

[devilmaster]

The Ford family owns the Lions. Why would you think they'd hire a competent executive in one of their businesses? :D

Hang on, remember now, William Clay was never in charge of the family motorcar business. Even the family knew that he was... ummm.... special.... and therefore let him buy the Lions instead as his personal playtoy. :rofl:

[Stu]

after week 3:

bengals
browns (crap, one of these teams will drop off next week).
lions
texans
chiefs
chargers (playing the jets tonight)
rams

[Insomniac]

Hang on, remember now, William Clay was never in charge of the family motorcar business. Even the family knew that he was... ummm.... special.... and therefore let him buy the Lions instead as his personal playtoy. :rofl:

My bad. The people in charge of Ford hand picked the person to run the Lions. That makes it better. ;)

[Insomniac]

Well, there is some hope!


Detroit Lions vice chairman Bill Ford Jr., at a Detroit Economic Club event Monday, had this to say in response to a reporter’s question about the Lions game on Sunday:

“It was an embarrassment, the fans deserve better, and if I had the authority, I would have fired the general manager,” Matt Millen, Ford said.

When asked again a few minutes later if he would fire Millen, he said, “Yes, but I don’t have that authority.”

[Andrew Longman]

:thumbup: to two consecutive deep balls on 2nd and 3rd and 10s in OT.

And sweet balls at that. :D

I was in no mood for a close game yesterday. My kids' HS team lost a close one they should have won Friday night. On Saturday, Rutgers lost to Rutgers to Navy by, well... I don't want to talk about it. My youngest lost his pee wee game on Sunday morning. By 1 pm I was ready for a straight forward ass kicking of the Bengals. Six sack by the Giants. The Bengals pass rush couldn't get within the same area code of Eli. Yet, there I sat glowering at the TV in OT. :mad:

I'll say this. Palmer is a very good QB. Really good.

At least my mood was lifted a bit for later that evening to say good bye to The Stadium. That was sad. :cry:

[devilmaster]

Well, there is some hope!

Yah, when Willie Clay croaks they can give to junior... who DID run the motor company and ran it poorly :rofl:

If there's hope for Blackhawk fans after dolla dolla Bill, then maybe there is hope for those lions fans out there..... :laugh:

[Ankf00]

And sweet balls at that. :D

I was in no mood for a close game yesterday. My kids' HS team lost a close one they should have won Friday night. On Saturday, Rutgers lost to Rutgers to Navy by, well... I don't want to talk about it. My youngest lost his pee wee game on Sunday morning. By 1 pm I was ready for a straight forward ass kicking of the Bengals. Six sack by the Giants. The Bengals pass rush couldn't get within the same area code of Eli. Yet, there I sat glowering at the TV in OT. :mad:

I'll say this. Palmer is a very good QB. Really good.

At least my mood was lifted a bit for later that evening to say good bye to The Stadium. That was sad. :cry:

Life's better for a longhorn from bergen in boulder :D

[Ankf00]

Rodney Harrison crying about others taking cheap shots :laugh:

http://bostonherald.com/sports/football/patriots/view.bg?articleid=1120650&format=text

[Insomniac]

Rodney Harrison crying about others taking cheap shots :laugh:

http://bostonherald.com/sports/football/patriots/view.bg?articleid=1120650&format=text

I've said it before, just declare all players are dirty. Watching it, I thought it was bad since Vrabel was ahead of Ricky and he just dove at his ankles from behind. And there's no question what Vrabel thought, he got up immediately and went backwards to find who hit him. It's a contact sport, you're going to misjudge at times or just try too hard when you have no chance. The word "dirty" is overused.

At this point in his career, his reputation precedes him.

[Ankf00]

saw it as well, wasn't the cleanest hit, but he caught up to vrabel and looks like his helmet is out in front of Vrabel. Can't blame Vrabel for being ticked immediately afterwards

RH crying about makes it super extra awesome though :)

[dando]

Ding-dong, the Millen's dead, the Millen's dead! Parade to commence in Detroit in 1-2-3....

:)

-Kevin

[devilmaster]

Ding-dong, the Millen's dead, the Millen's dead! Parade to commence in Detroit in 1-2-3....

:)

-Kevin

Oh well, they'll just find someone equally as incompetent. :\

[Insomniac]

Oh well, they'll just find someone equally as incompetent. :\

They did a good job stomping out your hope and expectations.

[dando]

They did a good job stomping out your hope and expectations.

Dude, there's only a few things worse than a Lions fan...Cubbies, Cleveland <insert name here> and Columbus Blue Jackets fans. ;) :( :irked:

-Kevin

[Insomniac]

Dude, there's only a few things worse than a Lions fan...Cubbies, Cleveland <insert name here> and Columbus Blue Jackets fans. ;) :( :irked:

-Kevin

I'd like to think that Cubs fans still hold out hope and get excited every year.

[dando]

I'd like to think that Cubs fans still hold out hope and get excited every year.

Oh, they do until a Bartman, etc. happens. :) I know several of the 100-year martyrs. :) You know the pain, BoSox fan. :p

-Kevin

[racermike]

Its been talked about for a few years now, and is finally happening.

The Detroit Lions are firing Matt Millen

[Insomniac]

Oh, they do until a Bartman, etc. happens. :) I know several of the 100-year martyrs. :) You know the pain, BoSox fan. :p

-Kevin

You're right. I should read that more as expecting the worst than having all hope killed.

[devilmaster]

Lions free, Lions free, thank god i'm lions free. :D

If willie clay likes you, you're set for life. Thats why it doesn't matter. Scouts who have been there for years...

Until the old man croaks and the successor (whomever it may be) has the balls to clean house, it doesn't matter.

Just sit back and enjoy the comedy.... :)

[Stu]

so you bengal fans ready for your first win?

[dando]

so you bengal fans ready for your first win?

Yup. :D :thumbup:

-Kevin

[Ziggy]

Week three view from a 39 year fan

Cowboys - Uh, really good team
Eagles - Scarry team, McNappy healthy is pretty scarry. Dude can chuck it. If they had some receivers, they would be just like Dallas.
Giants - Good team, real good. Notice all the NFC powerhouses are in the same division?

Chargers - Bad start, good squad.
Bills - I wish them only the best, hope for playoff berth.
Steelers - Looking kind of average
Pats - Welcome to the real world, age and injury has them by the short and curly's. Their coach is a GIANT ASS

Colts - Small defense, no running game, in for a long season
Bears - Old men on defense, harmless offense. Matt Forte is a keeper

[Don Quixote]

You left out my Browns. :D

[EDwardo]

Chiefs 33 Nags 19


Sorry Boss, the Chiefs might suck but they beat the Nags again at Arrowhead.

[WickerBill]

Yeah, I just came here to take my whuppin'.

[Insomniac]

It's looking like this could be a year where 11-5 gets you a playoff bye.

[dando]

You left out my Browns. :D

Dude. :saywhat: :shakehead :thumdown:

-Kevin

[dando]

Yeah, I just came here to take my whuppin'.

Ouch. :eek:

-Kevin

[Ankf00]

NYG mudholed BYE today.

[TKGAngel]

The last time the Bills had a 4-0 start, I was 11. Damn, its been awhile. :)

[Don Quixote]

Bungles win the most important contest so far this year for the first draft pick. :gomer: They should refund all ticket revenues for that game.

[Don Quixote]

The last time the Bills had a 4-0 start, I was 11. Damn, its been awhile. :)
Waiting for the other shoe to drop. ;)

[TKGAngel]

Waiting for the other shoe to drop. ;)

Oh, I know. Something bizarre will happen and the wheels will come off the wagon.

[Don Quixote]

Oh, I know. Something bizarre will happen and the wheels will come off the wagon. Believe me, I understand. Ever hear of redright88? The Drive? The Fumble? :irked:

[WickerBill]

Waiting for the other shoe to drop. ;)

I'm guessing the other shoe will be the Bills getting the SI cover this week. They almost always do a "they're so good" on someone obvious (Pats, Colts in previous years) or "look at this surprise" at the beginning of October.


** No, I do not have any inside information about the Bills being on the cover of SI. Speculation.

[chop456]

^ What about blue and yellow Jeebus? :D

[Insomniac]

Linehan fired and Haslett taking over.

[TKGAngel]

I'm guessing the other shoe will be the Bills getting the SI cover this week. They almost always do a "they're so good" on someone obvious (Pats, Colts in previous years) or "look at this surprise" at the beginning of October.


** No, I do not have any inside information about the Bills being on the cover of SI. Speculation.

I'd normally agree with you, but I think this might be SI's NHL preview issue. So they'll just put Ryan Miller on the cover and jinx the other Buffalo pro team.

[IlliniRacer]

Linehan fired and Haslett taking over.

Surprisingly, Trent Green wasn't the answer. :shakehead

[Stu]

Dude. :saywhat: :shakehead :thumdown:

-Kevin

i bet the browns and bengals both end up 1-15.

[Insomniac]

Surprisingly, Trent Green wasn't the answer. :shakehead

They knew that in 1999. :D

[Methanolandbrats]

^ What about blue and yellow Jeebus? :D

He carpet bombed the Cardinals.................and the Packers SUCK.

[jcollins28]

They knew that in 1999. :D

Yeah but did Green? In fact can Trent Green even remember the year 1999?

[dando]

Believe me, I understand. Ever hear of redright88? The Drive? The Fumble? :irked:

Boy, those were the days! Nothing like sitting in a room full of Brownie fans writhing in pain. :thumbup: :D :p

-Kevin

[JLMannin]

.

[Stu]

Boy, those were the days! Nothing like sitting in a room full of Brownie fans writhing in pain. :thumbup: :D :p

-Kevin

sadly, those days of heartbreak were a lot better for us browns fans.

7 more years of suck and we'll know what kind of pain you bengal's fans have been experiencing.

[nrc]

sadly, those days of heartbreak were a lot better for us browns fans.

7 more years of suck and we'll know what kind of pain you bengal's fans have been experiencing.

Nah. The Browns have sucked since 1962.

[dando]

Bungles sign El Cid. :saywhat: You just can't make this stuff up. :shakehead :irked:

-Kevin

[Stu]

Nah. The Browns have sucked since 1962.

Browns since 1962: 321-325-6 (.497 wp) with 1 Championship

Bengals since 1962 (inception in 68): 268-347-1 with 0 Championships

[stroker]

^ What about blue and yellow Jeebus? :D

What's up with the Blue and Yellow jerseys? I can't remember da Jets ever being that color combo...

[dando]

What's up with the Blue and Yellow jerseys? I can't remember da Jets ever being that color combo...

NY Titans throwback. Jets started as the Titans in the AFL.

-Kevin

[dando]

Browns since 1962: 321-325-6 (.497 wp) with 1 Championship

Bengals since 1962 (inception in 68): 268-347-1 with 0 Championships

Yippee! We have the tallest dwarf! :gomer: :shakehead

suck + suck == suck

-Kevin

[IlliniRacer]

Al Davis also wants those damm kids to get off his lawn.


Linky - Tales From The Crypt Host unloads on Lane Kiffin (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3618813)

[nrc]

Browns since 1962: 321-325-6 (.497 wp) with 1 Championship

Bengals since 1962 (inception in 68): 268-347-1 with 0 Championships

Browns since 1962: No Paul Brown
Bengals since 1968: Some Paul Brown

[Don Quixote]

Didn't see this one coming. Henry is a sociopath with a low life expectancy.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3620176

[TKGAngel]

The 9 kids by 9 different women was a rumor when he played for the Bills.

I know innocent until proven guilty and all, but it sounds like Henry has punched a one way ticket to the klink.

[Methanolandbrats]

[QUOTE=TKGAngel;243022]The 9 kids by 9 different women was a rumor when he played for the Bills. QUOTE]

Damn, he's got game, even Evander can't compete with that :thumbup:

[G.]

Didn't see this one coming. Henry is a sociopath with a low life expectancy.


Henry was released from the Broncos on June 2, when Shanahan said his commitment was lacking.

So is Cincy going to pick him up off the wire?

:gomer:

[Don Quixote]

So is Cincy going to pick him up off the wire?

:gomer: I thought they did already. :rofl:

[dando]

I thought they did already. :rofl:

Nah. They'll wait until he does time like the Brownies did with Lewis. :gomer: :p

-Kevin

[Stu]

Nah. They'll wait until he does time like the Brownies did with Lewis. :gomer: :p

-Kevin

wasnt a quarter of your team in jail just a few years back?

[dando]

wasnt a quarter of your team in jail just a few years back?

You tell me....sounds like you're keeping count. My apathy towards the Bungles now is deafening. *shrug*

-Kevin

[Don Quixote]

Frontrunner. :p

[dando]

Frontrunner. :p

Nah. Never been a huge NFL fan. I can count the number of games I've attended on one hand, and one of them was the Bungles/Brownies scab game in the 80s. :saywhat: A high school JV game would have been vastly more interesting than that game. :irked: :shakehead

Of course it doesn't help when your team is 52-108 in the 90s and 54-74 in the 00's. :mad:

-Kevin

[nrc]

wasnt a quarter of your team in jail just a few years back?
Depends on how many times you count Chris Henry. Of course most of those guys did no jail time and they're almost all gone from the team now anyway.

Coincidentally, one of the "bad boy Bengals" was Eric Steinbach who the Browns made one of the highest paid Offensive Guards in the league while his case was pending.

[devilmaster]

0-16.... Embrace it. :rofl: :laugh:

[Don Quixote]

0-16.... Embrace it. :rofl: :laugh:

Looking at their schedule from here on out, its hard to see any wins there. :\

[TKGAngel]

I suppose if Trent Edwards' eggs had to get scrambled this season, that they're scrambled as we head into the bye week. :\

[nrc]

It's official: Chris Perry has caused me more pain as a Bengal than he ever did as a Wolverine. :irked:

[dando]

0-16.... Embrace it. :rofl: :laugh:

And this from Lions boy? :gomer: :p

-Kevin

[dando]

It's official: Chris Perry has caused me more pain as a Bengal than he ever did as a Wolverine. :irked:

:saywhat:

The expletives I spewed when he was drafted are rivaled only by those of the father in A Christmas Story.


In the heat of battle my father wove a tapestry of obscenities that as far as we know is still hanging in space over Lake Michigan.

And Chris Gamble was still on the board when they drafted Perry. :mad

-Kevin

[dando]

Looking at their schedule from here on out, its hard to see any wins there. :\

Browns and KC. :)

-Kevin

[Stu]

Browns and KC. :)

-Kevin

maybe 1 of the 2, most likely the browns so both teams finish 1-15.

[Don Quixote]

maybe 1 of the 2, most likely the browns so both teams finish 1-15. Then Detroit wins the lottery pick. :D

[dando]

Al Davis also wants those damm kids to get off his lawn.


Linky - Tales From The Crypt Host unloads on Lane Kiffin (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3618813)

http://media.movieweb.com/news/10.2007/crypt.jpg

:saywhat:

http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/2008/10/davis-in-violation-of-league-rules/


The NFL League Office has sent Oakland Raiders owner Al Davis a letter informing him that he was in violation of NFL league rules when he falsely accused the New England Patriots of tampering with then Raider wide receiver Randy Moss.


http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writers/peter_king/10/05/week5/1.html


Sign of the Week

"Just Stupid, Baby.''
-- Sign at an office building overlooking the Raiders training complex and offices in Alameda, Calif., seen on the day the Raiders announced the firing of Lane Kiffin and hiring of interim coach Tom Cable.

What could that sign-poster mean? See "Stat of the Week.''


http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writers/peter_king/10/05/week5/2.html


Six comments:

1. Detroit has been one-victory-per-season better than the Raiders in these past six seasons, including 2008, and the locals just ran Matt Millen out of town with pitchforks and torches. Where is the outrage and indignation in Oakland over the six coaches since New Year's Day 2002, over the miserable record and over the most dysfunctional team in football and perhaps in all of sports?

2. Not sure I've ever seen a news conference where one man lays waste to another the way Davis did to Kiffin. Clearly, Davis thought Kiffin was in this to make a quick buck, not to build a winning team with the Raiders. "He had you conned the way he conned me,'' he said to some writers after his briefing the other day.

One of my favorite passages from the news conference was Davis repeating a conversation he and Kiffin had: "[Lane] said, 'We can't win with this.' So I said to him, 'What do you mean you can't win?' And he said, 'Well, we can't win.' And I said, 'Then do the honorable thing. If you don't think you can win, resign. If you don't think you can win, resign. I don't know what you're talking about.' "

3. I have no idea what good it did to let JaMarcus Russell know Kiffin didn't want to draft him. How can that help your team?

4. Thought I'd check in with a man who had the most success with Davis, John Madden, who had a 112-39-7 record from 1969-78 with the Raiders. I asked him what the next coach of the Raiders should know and what the key was to a coach working well with Davis.

"He's got to form a partnership with Al,'' Madden said. "Don't put people between yourself and Al. That's the key. You know, it's no accident that maybe the best two coaches of all time are Paul Brown and George Halas, and look at how many people were between them and the owner. No one! They owned and coached! You communicate directly with Al. Once a decision is made, it doesn't always go your way, but you go forward as a team.''

Madden wanted to build his team with the offensive line first. Davis wanted to build with speed, particularly in the defensive backfield. "We used to argue all the time,'' Madden said. "Al doesn't always think he's right. We argued for years about Jack Tatum and Jack Youngblood.''

In 1971, the Raiders chose 19th and the Rams 20th. Tatum, the safety from Ohio State, and Youngblood, the defensive end from Florida, were on the board. Though Davis has always been a DB fan, he favored Youngblood here, and Madden wanted Tatum. Madden won, but took no victorious pride in it. He just thought Tatum fit the Raiders' defense better.

The point is, Madden and Davis sparred verbally all the time, and neither took it personally. "That's what the next coach has to do,'' said Madden.

5. As I said on NBC on Saturday, the next coach could be Jim Fassel, who gets along swimmingly with Al. Fassel ran an offense that ranked in the top five in scoring for three straight years (479, 399 and 450 points from 2000 to 2002, respectively), would have no ego about keeping Al informed about everything he's doing, and would walk to Oakland for the job.

6. Last thing: I do not like that Kiffin flirted with Arkansas last December, with three games left in the 2007 season, the same way it's detestable that Bobby Petrino walked out on Atlanta and Nick Saban jilted Miami. When you take a coaching job, there's no defense for actively trying to find an escape hatch during the season.

And you can be sure when an Arkansas booster called Al Davis in early December last year, trying to get him to let Kiffin out of his contract to coach the Razorbacks, that Kiffin was a dead man walking. Why Al didn't fire him in the offseason, I have no idea.

One of my theories on the ill-fated Kiffin Era is this: He entered the job knowing if it didn't work out, he'd collect $6 million and still be young enough and highly regarded enough to get a primo college job. Except for the money part of it, he's got all that going for him.

Back in the day, when you took a job, you didn't take it with a golden parachute attached. "You didn't even think of a college job, or any other job, in those days,'' Madden said. "But I think the difference is there was no agents or lawyers in those days looking for the next job for coaches.''

Jeebus. And the Bungles are considered dysfunctional? :shakehead

-Kevin

[SurfaceUnits]

Who had the first 1000 yard season in NFL history?

http://money.cnn.com/cnnsi/2008/football/nfl/10/08/chff/index.html

[dando]

Who had the first 1000 yard season in NFL history?

@ which position? :)

-Kevin

[Stu]

ugh. all thats left is cincitucky and detroit. detroit's got houston this weekend too. :(

[dando]

ugh. all thats left is cincitucky and detroit. detroit's got houston this weekend too. :(

And Millen's Kittens snatched defeat from the jaws of victory yet again yesterday. Gotta think they can beat the Vikes when they play them @ home week 14. But as this weekend proved, the unthinkable can and will happen. :eek: I still say Cincy wins the last two and a couple of others unless Palmer is done for the season. And do yourself a favor, watch Real LA vs. Phanatics tonight and not MNF. Your brain will thank you later. ;)

-Kevin