What a Finish at - Spa

[OW]

Too Much to say
I was hoping so much to see SeaBass on the podium..........

[Cam]

WTG Minardi! :gomer:


:)

[trish]

I thought he had it for sure.

Is the forum slow for anyone else?

[cart7]

Rain races are always fun.

[trish]

This article does a pretty good job of describing today's events. It also mentions Kimi and Lewis being under investigation.

Article (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsport/formula_one/7602830.stm)

[ilferrari]

This article does a pretty good job of describing today's events. It also mentions Kimi and Lewis being under investigation.

Article (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsport/formula_one/7602830.stm)

They are probably discussing when Hamilton chose to cut the chicane before he passed Kimi into La Source. As I understand it, you are not allowed to take any advantage from cutting the corner - which it may be interpreted to have been the case, because it put him right under Kimi going into La Source.

[NismoZ]

Verrrrry, verrry eentereschting!:thumbup:

[Methanolandbrats]

Round headed, cheating bastard should be excluded :mad:

[opinionated ow]

They are probably discussing when Hamilton chose to cut the chicane before he passed Kimi into La Source. As I understand it, you are not allowed to take any advantage from cutting the corner - which it may be interpreted to have been the case, because it put him right under Kimi going into La Source.

The likely outcomes will be a) no gain or b)simulated drive through penalty, likely enough to bump him to second and give massa the victory.

[Accipiter]

Hamilton 25 second penalty for cutting the chicane. Dropped to third, Massa given the win.

A bit harsh, I think but it's not like there is no substance behind the decision.

Glock 25 second penalty for passing under the Yellow, Webber moved to 8th.

[trish]

Too bad they can't make these decisions before the podium.

[Accipiter]

Too bad they can't make these decisions before the podium.

Ain't that the truth. This stewardship by committee system they have in F1 just doesn't work.

[DagoFast]

Great. :( An exciting finish rendered meaningless by some graduates of the Barnhart school of race direction. :mad:

Good grief, they should just dispense with running any more races and let Max and Bernie declare the winners in a press release. To no ones surprise, then Ferrari can always win.

My carefactor now = zero.

[trish]

What exactly did Lewis gain? I mean Kimi did crash out. They should figure that into their decision.

[oddlycalm]

What exactly did Lewis gain? I mean Kimi did crash out. They should figure that into their decision.
Very true. I'd have liked to see Kimi win it, but he didn't and neither did Massa. The penalty makes no sense unless they saw something that wasn't on the race broadcast footage. After a dozen slomo replays on the DVR I still don't get it.

Kimi pushed Hamilton wide at the chicane forcing him off, then when Hamilton came back on the track he moved right over and let Kimi by after which he went back to attacking. What else was he supposed to do that that point? They were side by side when they went off, what advantage does he enjoy once he allows Kimi back in front?

Glock getting bumped back a place because of a pass under yellow is a clear cut issue, the kind of thing the officials should take action on.

Great race, changing track conditions that result in an epic conclusion that people would be talking about for years, but the officials can't allow the race to stand on it's own. :shakehead :thumdown:

oc

[Insomniac]

When i saw the "incident", my first thought was how much space does he need to give up? He ceded the position, but then put himself right under his wing (which he wouldn't be able to do under normal circumstances). I figured if there was no penalty, there would be a protest. Then Kimi wrecked so it didn't matter much. However, I forgot this is F1 and they don't just tell a driver to give up a spot (that would be an IRL/CC call). Instead they do the simulated penalty. I didn't see this coming, but the FIA is always overly harsh.

But what a finish. The front and the middle of the pack (tire change vs. no tire change). I felt bad for Bourdais though.

[Cam]

I am sick to death of the FIA meddling with the ontrack results. Once again the penalty goes the way of the cheating red team. Assess the penalty whilst they are under power and not in the shower. Bastards. :flame::flame::flame:

[Kiwifan]

If that penalty stands it's a farce.

[Andrew Longman]

If that penalty stands it's a farce.

Exactly. OC's post is dead on. He shot the chicane because they were racing hard and that the room Kimi gave him. He pulled over and got behind him. I don't know what else they could want him to do. And it penalized them for the best racing we've seen in F1 in years.

[Methanolandbrats]

WTF.........I was kidding when I posted that thinking no way in hell they ruin that finish..........but I check back in and they actually did do it :saywhat:

[ilferrari]

What exactly did Lewis gain? I mean Kimi did crash out. They should figure that into their decision.

It is a pretty harsh decision on Lewis, but I can understand why they did it. Unfortunately it is not usually the steward's job to factor aspects and circumstances into the punishment. The nominal punishment they give for this is a drive-through penalty, what I can't understand is why they chose 25 seconds to put him behind Heidfeld when it is clearly more like 15-20 seconds.

The advantage that Lewis gained was that he was able to use cutting the chicane out to give himself a slam-dunk pass into La Source, which he would otherwise not have had. As soon as I saw him do it I knew the FIA would probably penalize him.

[trish]

The 25 seconds is in the sporting regulations.

[oddlycalm]

It is a pretty harsh decision on Lewis, but I can understand why they did it. Unfortunately it is not usually the steward's job to factor aspects and circumstances into the punishment. The nominal punishment they give for this is a drive-through penalty, what I can't understand is why they chose 25 seconds to put him behind Heidfeld when it is clearly more like 15-20 seconds.

The advantage that Lewis gained was that he was able to use cutting the chicane out to give himself a slam-dunk pass into La Source, which he would otherwise not have had. As soon as I saw him do it I knew the FIA would probably penalize him.
I understand what you are saying, but he checked up and waited for Kimi to come by. How does that then set him up to pass into La Source and how exactly did he violate the sporting regs? He lost his momentum once he checked up. Isn't he free to start racing the leading car once he has allowed it to pass, or does he have to wait for a period of time or another corner? I'm just not seeing where he took advantage. If it was so obvious why didn't the stewards make the call right then?

Also, Kimi pushing him off at the chicane would seem to be an offsetting maneuver to me. It was certainly the reason Hamilton was forced to straight line the chicane. Considering how hard they were racing, the track conditions and what was at stake I would not have called a penalty on either of them.

What was clear is that Hamilton had the advantage on the primary tire and an even bigger advantage once there was moisture on the track. He was getting by Kimi and it was only a matter of where and when. Kimi tried blocking him, pushed him wide, etc. and they were at it hammer and tong, which is as it should be.

Changing the result after the podium ceremony and post race interview is inexcusable and puts them in the same class as Brian Barnhart and :tony:. The FIA needs to send Charlie Whiting to a an S&M hooker dungeon, fine itself $100 million and execute Max Mosley at dawn on November 1st...:laugh:

oc

[Cam]

Changing the result after the podium ceremony and post race interview is inexcusable and puts them in the same class as Brian Barnhart and :tony:. The FIA needs to send Charlie Whiting to a an S&M hooker dungeon, fine itself $100 million and execute Max Mosley at dawn on November 1st...:laugh:

oc

On the ITV broadcast that's shown here, they said that McLaren asked and Charlie had given the move(s) the all clear. Time to grow a pair Charlie. :rolleyes:

[Opposite Lock]

I understand what you are saying, but he checked up and waited for Kimi to come by. How does that then set him up to pass into La Source and how exactly did he violate the sporting regs? He lost his momentum once he checked up. Isn't he free to start racing the leading car once he has allowed it to pass, or does he have to wait for a period of time or another corner? I'm just not seeing where he took advantage. If it was so obvious why didn't the stewards make the call right then?

Also, Kimi pushing him off at the chicane would seem to be an offsetting maneuver to me. It was certainly the reason Hamilton was forced to straight line the chicane. Considering how hard they were racing, the track conditions and what was at stake I would not have called a penalty on either of them.

What was clear is that Hamilton had the advantage on the primary tire and an even bigger advantage once there was moisture on the track. He was getting by Kimi and it was only a matter of where and when. Kimi tried blocking him, pushed him wide, etc. and they were at it hammer and tong, which is as it should be.

Changing the result after the podium ceremony and post race interview is inexcusable and puts them in the same class as Brian Barnhart and :tony:. The FIA needs to send Charlie Whiting to a an S&M hooker dungeon, fine itself $100 million and execute Max Mosley at dawn on November 1st...:laugh:

oc

Couldn't agree more. :thumbup:

[The Doctor]

The issue here is gaining an advantage, not ceding the position. So when he short-cuts the chicane, sure he let Kimi back by but he gained an advantage because he made up time. He wasn't up Kimi's butt prior to going into the corner, and afterwards he was. But then again, this is Jesus Hamilton we're talking about here, so I suppose he could have miraculously placed himself in any place on the track at any time.

Edit ftw: And Whiting had nothing to do with the decision, it is a stewards decision. Charlie apparently told Dennis he thought the re-pass was good. But it's not his call. So I suppose you can buy him hookers if you want... but whatever it takes to get Mosley out. Whiting will have to take one for the team.

[Andrew Longman]

Changing the result after the podium ceremony and post race interview is inexcusable

Absolutely since they had many laps to make the call before the end of the race.

[emjaya]

To me it looks like Hamilton could have made the chicane, but decided not to. :confused:
Here it is, be quick.
70rXr2Mkq_M

[NismoZ]

I earlier said "interesting" but I hadn't forseen this. I couldn't BE more neutral but Hamilton was just plain screwed. Message sent?...simply cause a wreck and make things crystal clear. Tracy and Bourdais solved that little problem long ago! How'd CC handle Glock at Montreal? Pretty sure he didn't get hit for 25 secs.:D

[Insomniac]

I understand what you are saying, but he checked up and waited for Kimi to come by. How does that then set him up to pass into La Source and how exactly did he violate the sporting regs? He lost his momentum once he checked up. Isn't he free to start racing the leading car once he has allowed it to pass, or does he have to wait for a period of time or another corner? I'm just not seeing where he took advantage. If it was so obvious why didn't the stewards make the call right then?

The way I see it, it wouldn't be acceptable for someone to shortcut the track to get closer to a competitor. To say, turn a 5s gap into a 2s gap per se. I can see where you say Kimi forced him off, and I know the other option may've been to take them both out, but Kimi had the advantage in that corner. Personally, it didn't seem right to me that Hamilton went straight through, moved over to let Kimi past and then got right under his wing on a long straight. The reason it didn't seem right to me was that I can't see any circumstance where you come out of that corner under the next car's wing. It's an easy pass. If you gave any driver the choice of being Kimi or Hamilton in that scenario, they'd all prefer to be Hamilton. That seems like an advantage gained by Hamilton.

However, if Dennis inquired to see if Hamilton should give the position back and someone gave him an answer (that was authorized to do so), I think it's 100% unacceptable that he was penalized. This should be black or white. Either Dennis asked the wrong person (I think what Dennis did was both the prudent and right thing to do) or the FIA must back up Whiting's answer to Dennis. He made a good faith effort to be sure that the right thing was done.

Ideally this should be settled on track as quickly as possible, but I don't think that would really make people upset now any less upset.

Edit: Watching the video above, I wouldn't say he checked up or lost any momentum. He let Kimi by and immediately passed him.

[opinionated ow]

Clear breach of the regulations. Standard penalty applied (equivalent to a drive through penalty). This doesn't occur very often in American motorsports, because few if any of the sanctioning bodies apply the full International Sporting Code. European, Australian, New Zealand, Asian motorsports where the FIA's International Sporting Code is applied in full, the results are not final until all steward's enquiries are cleared. Rightly this was sent to the stewards of the meeting as it was a contentious issue, but it was a clea violation of the regulations. It is the same scenario as if he had been 5 seconds behind, gone straight over the tarmac run off, avoided the Bus Stop, passed Raikkonnen, then moved behind his wing. It is cheating.

[ilferrari]

The reason why I think McLaren's appeal will fail is because, AFAIK, the rules do not specify anything about conceding the place or lifting. You cannot gain an advantage from going off the course. The driver just has to think on his feet in these situations.

[NismoZ]

Very nice! I think I just changed my mind!:rofl: Yep, he comes out of the runoff faster than he'd 've exited the chicane and it looks like all he had to do to avoid a wreck is just concede he'd been passed! Yeah, right!:rolleyes:

[Methanolandbrats]

Watched the replay multiple times on the DoucheBag Show. Penalty was deserved. Instead of backing off he flicked it to the left, a clear decision to shortcut. He gained a lot of track position. Can't do that.

[TrueBrit]

Wow...I'm stunned, the silver car got penalized to the red car's advantage?

I'm stunned I tell ya', stunned....

:shakehead

[meadors]

Hamilton outright lied when he said he was ahead going into the chicane and that Kimi forced him off. He was never ahead. It's clear from the video he planned to go into the chicane hot and straight shoot it. He no way was going to even come close to safely passing Kimi, yet he rushed up the inside like a bat out of hell and then claims to heve been "pushed over". Reminds me of the arrogant pointy chinned bastard. It's too bad he was not penalized on the spot, but justice was served.

[indyfan31]

Personally I don't agree with the penalty for THAT particular move, I figured he surrendered the position and that was it. However, when I saw the crawl on the screen about the investigation I though for sure it would be about the sweeping blocks he put on Raikkonen on the straight after Eau Rouge. Either way, he got his deserved penalty.
That said, the stewards are spineless. If you see an infraction, make a damn decision on the spot and stick to it.

[Trevor Longman]

If you look at this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0xiGkc1yBY). He shortcut because wanted to avoid the wet grass that he probably would have spun on, taking them both out. I know its not in the regs but what he did was FAIR. The alternative the regs suggest is not. It penalized Hamilton 25 seconds for a move that would have gained him 2 or 3 at most if he didn't move over. But he did and returned the gap to what it was before the chicane. I don't know but I feel its unfair that they should penalize him for cutting the chicane to avoid a crash and then giving up any performance advantage you gained.

[pchall]

To me it looks like Hamilton could have made the chicane, but decided not to. :confused:
Here it is, be quick.

It does look like Hamilton would have been way off line in the chicane and chose to cut it for tactical reasons. If he'd stayed on course he would have lost a lot of momentum.

[emjaya]

It does look like Hamilton would have been way off line in the chicane and chose to cut it for tactical reasons. If he'd stayed on course he would have lost a lot of momentum.

That's what the stewards seem to think. Hamilton's "redress" was less than if he had followed Kimi thought the chicane.Hamilton looked to be a lot faster than Kimi. Had he been a little patient he would have probably got past at Les Combes, maybe even Raidillon.

It's a hard decision, but to me, anything that keeps the big-headed little twerp from winning the WDC is a good one. :evilgrin:

Now if they would just give out a decent penalty to fools like Kovalainen who take out other drivers with stupid, half-hearted overtaking moves. :flame:

A drive though is not punishment enough. They should go a lap down or have to wait until the last car on the track goes by.

[Elmo T]

Clear breach of the regulations.

Is it applied every time a car cuts a chicane? Or only when the driver gains an unfair advantage? No doubt there are many cases where drivers blow the chicane, sometimes paved and sometimes through the weeds - so the sporting regulations require a 25 second penalty each time? My thought is that if it was such a clear violation, then action could have been take immediately.

We are generally Ferrari fans in our house, but Lewis immediately gave back the position - without the intervention of race control. I agree with Trevor too, it looked like he was avoiding contact.

I did expect some stern words from the FIA to both drivers, maybe some fines if the FIA thought the drivers were leaning on each other too hard - but I don't think I saw anything so egregious that warranted changing the outcome of the race.

[opinionated ow]

That's what the stewards seem to think. Hamilton's "redress" was less than if he had followed Kimi thought the chicane.Hamilton looked to be a lot faster than Kimi. Had he been a little patient he would have probably got past at Les Combes, maybe even Raidillon.

It's a hard decision, but to me, anything that keeps the big-headed little twerp from winning the WDC is a good one. :evilgrin:

Now if they would just give out a decent penalty to fools like Kovalainen who take out other drivers with stupid, half-hearted overtaking moves. :flame:

A drive though is not punishment enough. They should go a lap down or have to wait until the last car on the track goes by.

My opinion is that taking out another driver should attract the 10 second stop go penalty that was applied 10 years ago. Shortcutting to gain advantage should remain a drive through penalty.

[opinionated ow]

Is it applied every time a car cuts a chicane? Or only when the driver gains an unfair advantage? No doubt there are many cases where drivers blow the chicane, sometimes paved and sometimes through the weeds - so the sporting regulations require a 25 second penalty each time? My thought is that if it was such a clear violation, then action could have been take immediately.

We are generally Ferrari fans in our house, but Lewis immediately gave back the position - without the intervention of race control. I agree with Trevor too, it looked like he was avoiding contact.

I did expect some stern words from the FIA to both drivers, maybe some fines if the FIA thought the drivers were leaning on each other too hard - but I don't think I saw anything so egregious that warranted changing the outcome of the race.

Cutting the course to gain an advantage is the rule. Lewis ended up closer to Kimi for cutting the track. Nothing more to it.

[robot9000]

Awsome race at the end !! I was cheering on Seabass all the way !!

Yeah, Looks like he got a better run out of that shortcut even if he did get off the go juice to get back in line. 25 sec :saywhat: Whats the forumula to arrive at that penalty?

[robot9000]

My opinion is that taking out another driver should attract the 10 second stop go penalty that was applied 10 years ago. Shortcutting to gain advantage should remain a drive through penalty.

Ending anothers race is a stop and go, but shortcutting is a drive through?

Thats like saying Murder gets you the Death penalty, and Jay Walking gets you life in prison. Hardly the same sort of infraction. At worst, cutting a corner is a bad mistameanor (sp?).

If a driver misses a turn and cuts a corner, 9 out of 9.5 times its bacuse 1. he was forced there due to someone else using that physics rule about 2 objects using the same space, or 2. their car is handling like poo and they likely are not faster than the guys in front.

[Elmo T]

Cutting the course to gain an advantage is the rule. Lewis ended up closer to Kimi for cutting the track. Nothing more to it.
With under five laps to go, the rule is clear:


16.3 The stewards may impose any one of three penalties on any driver involved in an Incident :
a) A drive-through penalty. The driver must enter the pit lane and re-join the race without stopping ;
b) A ten second time penalty. The driver must enter the pit lane, stop at his pit for at least ten seconds
and then re-join the race.
c) a drop of ten grid positions at the driver’s next Event.
However, should either of the penalties under a) and b) above be imposed during the last five laps, or
after the end of a race, Article 16.4b) below will not apply and 25 seconds will be added to the elapsed
race time of the driver concerned.

It is the application. Is cutting the chicane always a penalty? How many cars missed the Nouvelle Chicane in the wet? If equally applied any time someone short cuts the track, then so be it.

[Accipiter]

On the ITV broadcast that's shown here, they said that McLaren asked and Charlie had given the move(s) the all clear. Time to grow a pair Charlie. :rolleyes:

The problem is that he doesn't actually have the power to make the final decision.

BTW, there is a precedent for this decision. Alonso was ordered back behind Klein at Suzuka '95 for a similar cut and attack.

[JohnHKart]

The problem is that he doesn't actually have the power to make the final decision.

BTW, there is a precedent for this decision. Alonso was ordered back behind Klein at Suzuka '95 for a similar cut and attack.


I think u mean 2005....Alonso was only 14 years old in 1995.

John

[Rus'L]

Cutting the course to gain an advantage is the rule. Lewis ended up closer to Kimi for cutting the track. Nothing more to it.

Actually, it is not the rule. The rule simply states you cannot drive off the track. Nothing about an advantage or not. I quoted all the appropriate sections over on champcarfanatics.

I found the reading of the rulebook very interesting. If you take it verbatim, essentially half the field would get a drive through penalty every race. Heck, look how many would get it on the first lap alone.

Another interesting wording -- the penalty for such infractions can consist of five different levels from warning to exclusion. However, the first line says the penalty may be one of the following. So, even there, the stewards have a choice on whether to apply any penalty whatsoever, and then they have a choice of serverity.

All of this is far from cut and dry, which is why I believe many of us are up in arms over this particular decision especially when weighed against past decision (just last race with Massa) comparing Ferrari vs. McLaren rulings.

[Accipiter]

I think u mean 2005....Alonso was only 14 years old in 1995.

John

You are correct, sir.

Sorry.

[oddlycalm]

The reason why I think McLaren's appeal will fail is because, AFAIK, the rules do not specify anything about conceding the place or lifting. You cannot gain an advantage from going off the course. The driver just has to think on his feet in these situations.
Right, I don't see the appeal succeeding either. It's clear he did gain some level of advantage.

The overhead footage shows Hamilton a nose ahead of Kimi going into the chicane but it is also clear Kimi has the corner and Hamilton would have had to back off which would have killed his momentum. Hamilton should have hung in back of him a ways past the corner then he probably would have been ok.

oc

[Gnam]

Seabass on Sunday's finish...


After such a great race it really sucks to be in this position.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/70420

He and Hamilton and Kimi should start a club. Screwed at Spa! :thumdown:

I hate it when refs decide the outcome, but it's on the competitors to win by a big enough margin that the damn dirty zebras can't steal it away. I'm looking forward to Monza, and some angry driving. :mad::thumbup:

[Insomniac]

Seabass on Sunday's finish...


http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/70420

He and Hamilton and Kimi should start a club. Screwed at Spa! :thumdown:

I hate it when refs decide the outcome, but it's on the competitors to win by a big enough margin that the damn dirty zebras can't steal it away. I'm looking forward to Monza, and some angry driving. :mad::thumbup:

It was all their own doing. Kimi threw it away. Hamilton short cut the track and didn't fully give up his advantage and Bourdais was passed and ended up letting 2 other guys on slicks by, then Alonso got him at the line. His team should've given him a heads up on Heidfeld.

[OW]

Unbelievable comments: you guys (gals) are dedicated...

Like "cut and run"...
"Unfair advantage" ... (momentum)...etc..

But no one really brought up the fact that Kimi may NOT have lost it if he wasn't trying to fight FROM that unfair advantage over him....

It was interesting....

OW

[Michaelhatesfans]

If the run off area is grass, this conversation doesn't take place.:irked:

I'm all for a paved run off at the end of a 200 mph straight in case of a brake failure, but by this point the cars are already slowed down quite a bit. No reason to have this section paved. If it's grass, Lewis does a half spin, or at least has a big moment as he struggles for control. It also gunks up his tires for a while. You shouldn't be able to go off course and re-enter in a better postion to pass than when you went off.

http://www.motorsport.com/photos/f1/2008/bel/f1-2008-bel-xp-0810.jpg

[TrueBrit]

......which is why he immediately gave the position back....

Anyone remember the last time the red team got penalized?......for anything? (that actually was a penalty i.e it stuck and wasn't later rescinded...the barge-board non-penalty doesn't count)

Just askin'.....

Oh, and if Max 'Brownshirt' Mosely can do us all a favour and in between bouts of having non-"concentration camp" bondage sessions with a bunch of dodgy boilers, let us know by how many points he plans to have Massa win the WDC this year we might be able to take advantage down the bookies...

Complete bloody farce...

[Insomniac]

If the run off area is grass, this conversation doesn't take place.:irked:

I'm all for a paved run off at the end of a 200 mph straight in case of a brake failure, but by this point the cars are already slowed down quite a bit. No reason to have this section paved. If it's grass, Lewis does a half spin, or at least has a big moment as he struggles for control. It also gunks up his tires for a while. You shouldn't be able to go off course and re-enter in a better postion to pass than when you went off.

http://www.motorsport.com/photos/f1/2008/bel/f1-2008-bel-xp-0810.jpg

That's what penalties are for. :D

[Michaelhatesfans]

Anyone remember the last time the red team got penalized?......for anything? (that actually was a penalty i.e it stuck and wasn't later rescinded...the barge-board non-penalty doesn't count).

Well, they had that stop and go at Silverstone when Schumi won the race while coming down the pitlane to serve his penalty...:laugh:

[Methanolandbrats]

The round headed, cheating bastard would have been several car lengths behind if he had lifted and followed the proper line. The shortcut put him right on Kimi's gearbox. That's naughty and illegal. Typical McLaren driver and tactics :D

[Michaelhatesfans]

......which is why he immediately gave the position back....



That's not my point, I'm saying that he shouldn't have been in a postion to take the spot in the first place. At the time that he was accelerating hard through the short cut, he should have been sliding through the grass trying not to kill the engine.

I'm not blaming Hamilton, I'm blaming the current trend toward paving areas that don't need to be paved.

[Hard Driver]

Let me add my vote for the penalty being wrong and idiotic.

That was great racing. And then F1 as usual figures out a way to screw things up.

So let me understand this.

They go into the chicane side by side.

Kimi pushed Lewis off the track, if he stayed on, they would have wrecked.

Lewis, let him by again.

This seems to me that there was no advantage. That is unless you think one driver being faster than another is an advantage... COme on. Lewis was closing the gap on Kimi. there was the chicane incident. Then he passed Kimi. Then he pulled away from Kimi....

Lewis was faster in the rain at this point in the race. He passed Kimi. He won..

This is another BS call from F1 that just happens to favor Ferrari again. I would say that Ferrari has pictures of Mosely with Nazi hookers but we all have those.

[Accipiter]

Kimi pushed Lewis off the track, if he stayed on, they would have wrecked.



Not if he had used his brake pedal judiciously at this point:

http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff210/AccipiterF1/Racing%20Stuff/hami_kimi.jpg

Instead he turned left, and well, here we are.

[cameraman]

If the chicane had been grass he would have never even tried it to begin with. Thing is look where he is, he did not gain anything as he was already on Kimi's tail so the penalty is stupid for two reasons:

He did not gain much if anything in the process

They took several hours to figure it out. Either make the call or at least announce that it will be reviewed immediately or stfu.:flame:

[Methanolandbrats]

He was on Kimi's tail entering the corner because he did'nt brake. Had he taken the correct line he would have been several car lengths back in dirty air. Lots of folks think everyone should just pull over and park when they see Jebus in their mirrors, he's just that good. Apparently the FIA does not agree. Screw Hamilton, Uncle Ron and McLaren. I hope Massa wins the title.

[Elmo T]

I hope Massa wins the title.

:thumbup:


Anyways....

I still am having trouble understanding the specific violation. I've heard short cutting to gain advantage, short cutting chicane period, leaving the track period, and generally cheating.

I know I have seen other cars go off track to the inside of the turn. I'll again reference the Nouvelle Chicane at Monaco. Lots of folks had off track excursions - how many penalties were applied.

What about running the turns wide, going off the racing surface onto the paved runoff area - never slowing, and reentering the track? I know I saw that a few times too. Is that a violation?

[Insomniac]

I don't know if the wording is in the rules, but it's my understanding the key thing is gaining an advantage which can be measured in many ways. So you could cut across the middle of the track (if such a thing were possible) and as long as you didn't gain any advantage it's OK. Keep in mind, "advantage" is a very broad word. It could be track position, maybe saving tires if you did it multiple times, saving fuel/using less fuel. IMO, in this case, Hamilton ceded the position he gained, but not the time he gained on Kimi. There is just no way any car could be under the other cars wing out of the chicane.

[TrueBrit]

McLaren confirm they are appealing one of the worst stewards decisions in modern history...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsport/formula_one/7603179.stm

[cameraman]

Thing is Hamilton had to slow down to let Kimi past so it was impossible for him to have more momentum than Kimi had at that instant. Physics is physics. So what was Hamilton supposed to do? The standard has always been to let the other driver back past you, there has never been anything else in the rules about how long you need to wait or how far back you need to go. How long was Hamilton supposed to stay off of the throttle and how was he supposed to figure that out that heretofore undefined amount while racing in the wet?

He slowed to let Kimi around, that has been the one and only standard applied for the last decade or so.

[emjaya]

Thing is Hamilton had to slow down to let Kimi past so it was impossible for him to have more momentum than Kimi had at that instant. Physics is physics. So what was Hamilton supposed to do? The standard has always been to let the other driver back past you, there has never been anything else in the rules about how long you need to wait or how far back you need to go. How long was Hamilton supposed to stay off of the throttle and how was he supposed to figure that out that heretofore undefined amount while racing in the wet?

He slowed to let Kimi around, that has been the one and only standard applied for the last decade or so.

He cut the chicane. What he did afterward is beside the point.

[Methanolandbrats]

I wonder how much Ron has to pay to appeal? :rofl: Kind of like buying the hangman a new rope the day before they string you up.

[Gnam]

:p
He cut the chicane. What he did afterward is beside the point.
Untrue. If Hamilton doesn't repass Kimi at La Source, Ferrari wouldn't have filed the grievance. Plus, to keep up with Hamilton, Kimi hot footed it through several runoff areas in the following lap. Isn't he just as guilty of gaining an "unfair advantage" by getting closer to Hamilton instead of braking earlier to make the turns?

Kimi was passed because he gave up the inside line at La Source and Hamilton pounced. Regardless of how close Hamilton was, if Kimi hugs the wall, no way Hamilton makes the pass.

My main gripe is all this was settled on the track. Hamilton and Kimi fought each other for 3 laps, and to go back afterwards and single out one moment as the deciding factor is an insult and cheapens the race. :thumdown:

[cameraman]

He cut the chicane. What he did afterward is beside the point.

What now you are going to black flag anyone who cuts a chicane? It happens all the time, the only difference is it is normally Rosberg or Coultard going around Sutil for 18th so nobody cares.

[Methanolandbrats]

What now you are going to black flag anyone who cuts a chicane? It happens all the time, the only difference is it is normally Rosberg or Coultard going around Sutil for 18th so nobody cares. Actually I think the guys back there get drive through penalties too.

[oddlycalm]

Actually I think the guys back there get drive through penalties too.
Right, they just aren't shown on television unless it's the home race for the driver involved because nobody cares.

Should be plenty of talk about this on Formula One Debrief for those living in the US and having nothing else to do Friday evening...:D

oc

[opinionated ow]

Actually I think the guys back there get drive through penalties too.

They penalised Glock for passing under yellow. So they do penalise other teams, but they need to be consistent. They must, must be consistent.

[OW]

OK - Since it's un-understandable - (agreeable) - put a wall at the chicanes - THAT would influence - (solve) a LOT of comments here - ;)

[Hard Driver]

He was on Kimi's tail entering the corner because he did'nt brake. Had he taken the correct line he would have been several car lengths back in dirty air. Lots of folks think everyone should just pull over and park when they see Jebus in their mirrors, he's just that good. Apparently the FIA does not agree. Screw Hamilton, Uncle Ron and McLaren. I hope Massa wins the title.

Ummm, it's called fighting for position. It is something good drivers do. No one is telling anyone to pull over for anyone. Like was said, for years the standard has been that if dueling for position and you pass someone by cutting the track, you let them back by. The fact you have to slow and let the other car back in front and then fight back is the standard.

So what is the complaint? Is it that Hamilton just too good a pulling that manouver off than all other drivers, so he got an advantage. That he is somehow now going to use this manouver as a passing tactic in the future. Hey, I'll pass on the outside of corners, get halfway through, cut left across the escape road, slow down, get under the rear wing and then line em up for the next corner.

[Insomniac]

Thing is Hamilton had to slow down to let Kimi past so it was impossible for him to have more momentum than Kimi had at that instant. Physics is physics. So what was Hamilton supposed to do? The standard has always been to let the other driver back past you, there has never been anything else in the rules about how long you need to wait or how far back you need to go. How long was Hamilton supposed to stay off of the throttle and how was he supposed to figure that out that heretofore undefined amount while racing in the wet?

He slowed to let Kimi around, that has been the one and only standard applied for the last decade or so.

When I watched it, I thought it was cheap. Kind of like when you see a block, you know it's a block. Yeah, he let Kimi by, but he was by no means slowing as Kimi was accelerating. He then immediately passed him. He blew the turn and still passes Kimi? Just didn't seem right to me. I can't think of a past "incident" like that where the guy who missed a turn, let the guy past and then immediately passed him back. Let him by and catch up to him again seems to be the way to go.

I'd also say, had Kimi not wrecked and he was unable get past Hamilton again (but was on his tail to the finish), I would've felt the win was stolen from Kimi. The severity of the punishment makes this worse combined with the fact that Kimi wrecked and Massa was just playing it safe.

[Insomniac]

So what is the complaint? Is it that Hamilton just too good a pulling that manouver off than all other drivers, so he got an advantage. That he is somehow now going to use this manouver as a passing tactic in the future. Hey, I'll pass on the outside of corners, get halfway through, cut left across the escape road, slow down, get under the rear wing and then line em up for the next corner.

It isn't "Hamilton is too good", it's that he didn't allow much of a gap, if any, when he let Kimi by. He passed him immediately and it wasn't because Kimi's engine died.

[OW]

This debate will go on for a long time - But I really believe - even though the track was wet Kimi would not have crashed..trying to get back, after this steal......if it was "right"...
There was only a few miles left...

It's more than what the penalty was..

Sure I like Massa....etc.....

[Elmo T]

I watched the last 5 laps again last night.

If leaving the track is a problem (or leaving the track to gain an advantage), why would they not penalize Kimi for going wide at Pouhan after Lewis cut the chicane. It looked to me like Kimi never lost momentum and may have actually picked up some closing speed.

All this said, I imagine the FIA reversing their decision would cause nearly as much controversy. I don't like the call, but I'd rather the FIA stand by their decision and tell all of us complainers to stick it. ;)

[emjaya]

I watched the last 5 laps again last night.

If leaving the track is a problem (or leaving the track to gain an advantage), why would they not penalize Kimi for going wide at Pouhan after Lewis cut the chicane. It looked to me like Kimi never lost momentum and may have actually picked up some closing speed.

All this said, I imagine the FIA reversing their decision would cause nearly as much controversy. I don't like the call, but I'd rather the FIA stand by their decision and tell all of us complainers to stick it. ;)

Kimi went wide because he could not make the corner. If there was grass there instead of tarmac, he hits the wall. If it was dry and he went out there he would have lost time.

Hamilton cut the chicane deliberately, he was in complete control the whole time. If he had gone in with the tyres locked up and out of control, then he probably would not have been penalised. But he didn't. He turned across the chicane when he could have, should have, followed Kimi around.

That all the Stewards were looking at and all that will be looked at at the appeal.

[Indy]

What a joke.

FIA: "Yeah, we favor Ferrari. What are you going to do about it?"

Pure arrogance.

[oddlycalm]

Not surprising there is controversy in the paddock as well. First I've seen that Hamilton was that much slower across the line and that Kimi just braked early.

Pat Symonds comments (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/70457)


"Here we had a great race with people really challenging each other and for why? If it's taken away, then why take that risk?"

Symonds has looked at video replays of the incident since Sunday's race and now believes that Hamilton had complied with the rules and not gained an advantage by cutting the chicane.

"To me the facts are quite clear in retrospect. I have had a look at the videos, I've had a look at the published data which shows that Lewis was nearly 7 km/h slower than Raikkonen across the line, you can quite clearly see on the in-car camera that he lets him get completely in front, and in my view Raikkonen just braked very early.


oc

[Dirty Sanchez]

I was at the race... and more specifically at the Bus Stop chicane at the end of it. I had a good view of the corner and a large screen. my initial reaction was that he gained an advantage into La Source and capitalized on it.

I hate that it basically decided the race, but penalties should be given regardless of what is at stake. it seems like there is plenty of precedent for this penalty and the 25 seconds tacked on after the race is the standard for infractions committed in the closing stages of the race.

Lewis was penalized this year in Magny-Cours for shortcutting a corner and gaining a position, btw....

link (http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2008/6/7980.html)

[Gnam]

I forget... did he let Vettel retake the position in France?

Did the crowd react to Hamilton's move?

[chop456]

What a joke.

FIA: "Yeah, we favor Ferrari. What are you going to do about it?"

Pure arrogance.



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[opinionated ow]

Sniff Petrol's take:
http://www.sniffpetrol.com/wp-content/uploads/fianewlogo.jpg

THOSE NEW F1 RULES IN FULL
Sniff, Friday, September 12th, 2008 at 3:06 am

Posted in Motorsport

fianewlogo.jpgFollowing unfortunate misunderstandings in the Grands Prix at Valencia and Spa, the FIA has revised the Red Car Rule for Formula 1. These amendments will be applied with immediate effect:

1) Overtaking a Ferrari is not permitted under any circumstances.
2) In the pit lane, a Ferrari always has precedence over other cars.
3) Any driver finishing less than 25 seconds ahead of a Ferrari will be penalized 25 seconds.*
4) If neither Ferrari finishes in first place, the stewards reserve the right to declare the result null and void (or to adjust it as necessary).
5) Only Ferrari drivers are permitted to use anything other than ‘designated’ parts of a circuit.
6) If forced off the ‘designated’ part of the track by a Ferrari, the guilty driver should immediately crash his car and return to the pits
6) Any driver or team appealing against any FIA decision in favour of Ferrari may be subject to a fine and/or the deduction of points.
*Subject to post-race adjustment by the stewards.

http://www.sniffpetrol.com/2008/09/12/those-new-f1-rules-in-full/

[Dirty Sanchez]

I forget... did he let Vettel retake the position in France?no, he thought it was a legit move. he was penalized during the race.


Did the crowd react to Hamilton's move?uh, yeah :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

[Gnam]

^ positive or negative reaction?

[TrueBrit]

Having watched and re-watched the incident a few things come to mind:

1) Lewis was ahead going into the bus-stop
2) Kimi was forcing Lewis off the road he had no option but to take the short-cut
3) If Lewis HADN'T taken that avoiding action they both would have wrecked
4) Lewis then CLEARLY slowed down, and gave the positon back
5) By definition that means he had relinquished any advantage/position he had gained
6) Charlie Whiting gave the all-clear to McLaren
7) The three stewtards that made this decision hours later are amateurs in every sense of the word
8) None of this will matter because Lewis is driving a silver car and there is no way that Max Bondage Mosely will allow a silver car to win either the WDC or the Manufacturers championship this year.

[oddlycalm]

7) The three stewtards that made this decision hours later are amateurs in every sense of the word
A situation not enhanced when the steward from Kenya decided to make an unfortunate public comment. :saywhat:

Probably past time for Bernie to afford a traveling medical team and Max to hire some credible stewards, at least for appearence sake. :gomer:

oc

[Insomniac]

Having watched and re-watched the incident a few things come to mind:

1) Lewis was ahead going into the bus-stop
2) Kimi was forcing Lewis off the road he had no option but to take the short-cut
3) If Lewis HADN'T taken that avoiding action they both would have wrecked
4) Lewis then CLEARLY slowed down, and gave the positon back
5) By definition that means he had relinquished any advantage/position he had gained

:confused: Do McLaren's not have brakes? He relinquished his position, whether he relinquished his advantage is up for debate.

[Methanolandbrats]

Having watched and re-watched the incident a few things come to mind:

1) Lewis was ahead going into the bus-stop
2) Kimi was forcing Lewis off the road he had no option but to take the short-cut
3) If Lewis HADN'T taken that avoiding action they both would have wrecked
4) Lewis then CLEARLY slowed down, and gave the positon back
5) By definition that means he had relinquished any advantage/position he had gained
6) Charlie Whiting gave the all-clear to McLaren
7) The three stewtards that made this decision hours later are amateurs in every sense of the word
8) None of this will matter because Lewis is driving a silver car and there is no way that Max Bondage Mosely will allow a silver car to win either the WDC or the Manufacturers championship this year. Silver Car would have won last year if Lew knew how to enter the pits.:D

[cameraman]

A situation not enhanced when the steward from Kenya decided to make an unfortunate public comment. :saywhat:
oc

Huh wtf?, Linkage please

[Gnam]

http://f1.in.reuters.com/f1/news/India-353971-1.php

[oddlycalm]

Huh wtf?, Linkage please
Nobody seems to have posted the entire comments made by Surinder Thatti which the Speed crew said included some bizarre references to his treatment in restaurants in the UK and Italy during F1 Debrief. The issue to me is that he is discussing the incident publicly at all.

Thoughts after the yelling and screaming (http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns20749.html)

stewards deny conspiracy (http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/10092008/23/stewards-deny-conspiracy-hamilton-penalty.html?page=2&order=date)

The three stewards of the meeting included Thatti (one of the FIA club heads that recently voted for Max to stay at the helm) as well as Nicholas Deschaux and Yves Bacquelaine, a lawyer and an unknown local guy.

Different weekends, different stewards, different enforcement. :thumdown:

oc

[Hard Driver]

:confused: Do McLaren's not have brakes? He relinquished his position, whether he relinquished his advantage is up for debate.

So he was side by side going into the chicane.

And after the chicane, he backed off and let a Kimi pass him (Kimi was going faster)

How exactly did he gain ANY advantage?

[Insomniac]

So he was side by side going into the chicane.

And after the chicane, he backed off and let a Kimi pass him (Kimi was going faster)

How exactly did he gain ANY advantage?

Let's see. Instead of going through the chicane he short cut the course. When he made the decision to peel off the track, he was behind Kimi. If he hit the brakes instead, he wouldn't have been on Kimi's rear wing coming out of the chicane. But when he let Kimi by, he got right under his wing and immediately passed him. That seems like an advantage to me, and I thought it was when I saw it.

I can't see how anyone could say he did not gain any advantage. Like I said before, the punishment seems harsh (I can't remember the last time F1 handed out a punishment and anyone said it wasn't enough), but that doesn't mean Hamilton did nothing wrong either.

As an addition, I liked what I hear yesterday. Let the he car past and stay behind for at least one turn. (Just note that if a car is for example 5s behind and short cuts the course and somehow comes out of the "exchange" 1s behind, while he hasn't gained a position, I'd say it's an advantage.)

[Ankf00]

Huh wtf?, Linkage please

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/motors/article-1054819/Ill-free-meals-life-Italy-jokes-steward-McLaren-star-Lewis-Hamilton-choke-Spa.html