Congratulations Taxpayers, you now own an insurance company [Archive] - Page 5

cameraman

11-12-08, 03:52 PM

So they weren't discussing it? My mistake.

People talked about it long enough to figure out that it was abjectly stupid. Now they have backpedalled some and were thinking about getting rid of the tax-free part of the 401K concept for "rich" folk but the instantaneous lynch mob has got them running from that bit of idiocy too.

There are a whole bunch of people in Congress who are in well over their heads and they are spouting off "ideas" that get slapped down as abject stupidity by the few folks back there who have at least a bit of a clue as to what is happening.

Insomniac

11-12-08, 04:14 PM

The New Slave

That's right, the American Taxpayer.

First we have this trillion dollar bailout that I don't even remember who it was originally supposed to help. I don't even care, didn't want it. But I'll have to pay for it anyway if I don't want to go to jail.

The government is not only discussing stealing our 401k's (how long before they raid them like they did social security?) they also want to tax us to "contribute" to it (I bet there's no opt out) for a whopping 3 % interest.

On top of that us savers have to worry about inflation (the invisible tax) eating up our life savings. That's if those aren't confiscated too. How long before they decide some big corporation could make better use of the money I saved than I can?

They've already been given the green light to rob citizens of their PRIVATE PROPERTY if a big corporation can use it for the greater good of the community.

We have been sold out to corporate interests. This government isn't for the people by the people anymore, we just pay all the bills while GOD know who is pulling the strings. But American Idol should be on soon, so who cares? :irked:
How did we get to this point?

I really don't think I'm overreacting and I'm getting pretty darn angry. :flame:

What country do you live in? The U.S. cuts taxes and runs deficits. No one would have the guts to actually make all of us pay more taxes to balance the budget or make long term plans to significantly trim the budget. None of us will actually be paying more taxes to clean up the federal deficit. I figure one of 3 things happen.

1. There's a whole lot of prosperity and the debt gets paid off without raising taxes on the majority of citizens.
2. The debt piles up and eventually the U.S. goes bankrupt.
3. Some of the debt gets paid off and it becomes the problem of people who aren't even born yet.

It's nice to say it's the taxpayer's money, but that would imply that we actually provided it in the first place. What we provide isn't even enough to run the government. Forget about all this money flowing from the treasury.

The new popular saying is "kicking the can down the road". We're going to keep doing that. If we end up with a surplus, either they'll find a way to waste it or cut taxes. Federal debt be damned. Who cares about having the upper hand with huge cash reserves. Those dumbasses at Microsoft saved piles of cash. Look at them now, they don't even need a handout from the government. It's way better to rely on other people.

Insomniac

11-12-08, 04:16 PM

People talked about it long enough to figure out that it was abjectly stupid. Now they have backpedalled some and were thinking about getting rid of the tax-free part of the 401K concept for "rich" folk but the instantaneous lynch mob has got them running from that bit of idiocy too.

There are a whole bunch of people in Congress who are in well over their heads and they are spouting off "ideas" that get slapped down as abject stupidity by the few folks back there who have at least a bit of a clue as to what is happening.

I'm happy that at least people are throwing out ideas.

Insomniac

11-12-08, 04:18 PM

How did we get to this point?

Widespread Apathy.

Stu

11-12-08, 04:31 PM

1. There's a whole lot of prosperity and the debt gets paid off without raising taxes on the majority of citizens.
2. The debt piles up and eventually the U.S. goes bankrupt.
3. Some of the debt gets paid off and it becomes the problem of people who aren't even born yet.

somewhere between #2 and #3

Stu

11-12-08, 04:38 PM

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601103&sid=aVgfVZDnnFh4&refer=us

Im starting to think we'd be better of if washington just took a 2 year long vacation.

nrc

11-12-08, 06:08 PM

``Illiquidity in this sector is raising the cost and reducing the availability of car loans, student loans and credit cards,'' Paulson said today in a speech at the Treasury in Washington. ``This is creating a heavy burden on the American people and reducing the number of jobs in our economy.'' The notion that reduced availability of credit cards is a bad thing is off base, I think. Obviously there needs to be reasonable consumer credit available but availability had gotten so lax that it's just another source of bad debt waiting to collapse.

If the economy needs people to have credit cards to buy consumer goods that they can't afford in order to keep the economy going then we're probably past another tipping point.

SurfaceUnits

11-12-08, 06:15 PM

People talked about it long enough to figure out that it was abjectly stupid. Now they have backpedalled some and were thinking about getting rid of the tax-free part of the 401K concept for "rich" folk but the instantaneous lynch mob has got them running from that bit of idiocy too.

There are a whole bunch of people in Congress who are in well over their heads and they are spouting off "ideas" that get slapped down as abject stupidity by the few folks back there who have at least a bit of a clue as to what is happening.

so they did discuss it after all.

not a clown in congress knows what all was in that bill they passed and not a penny of the 700 billion in that bill or the other trillion plus dollars has been spent on what the bill was drafted for.

cameraman

11-12-08, 06:23 PM

not a clown in congress knows what all was in that bill they passed and not a penny of the 700 billion in that bill or the other trillion plus dollars has been spent on what the bill was drafted for.

And that would be a good thing as buying the bad debt was a stupid idea. Buying the banks which gives the treasury the option of selling said bank in the future with the possibility of actually turning a profit is far smarter than buying billions in worthless paper that will never have any value.

cameraman

11-12-08, 06:25 PM

so they did discuss it after all.For a few minutes at the hearing NOT in any kind of policy writing setting.

JLMannin

11-12-08, 06:31 PM

The notion that reduced availability of credit cards is a bad thing is off base, I think. Obviously there needs to be reasonable consumer credit available but availability had gotten so lax that it's just another source of bad debt waiting to collapse.

If the economy needs people to have credit cards to buy consumer goods that they can't afford in order to keep the economy going then we're probably past another tipping point.

Well, I get a pile of credit card offers each week. Granted, I have not responded to any to see if I qualify for new credit, but I have plenty of available credit now.

I do see your point about living beyond our means - many, many many people were using home equity as a giant ATM, taking out money to buy SUV's, vacations, and big screen TV's.

This "recession" is no more than America moving closer to living within its means. I do nat mean to make light of the job losses, because I know that the job loss and the emotional and financial distress that comes with it is real. Much of our economic expansion over the last decade has been fueled by home equity, which was fueled by soaring home prices, which was fueled by low interest rates.

Take my example - when I moved from Illinois to Indiana, I purchased a house in Indiana that was twice the price of the one I sold in Illinois. Why? The total costs were the same. The Illinois house had a higher rate, shorter payback period, and higher property taxes. The Indiana loan was a lower rate, a longer term loan, and property taxes were lower. I had a dollar figure for what I could afford for housing, and I purchased whatever house I could afford. From my perspective, the sales price was irrelevant. I was wiser than some in that I considered the costs for taxes and insurance in determining what I could afford, so when I received my first tax bill, I was not shocked. If I needed to sell the house quickly now, I would be in a world of hurt. Hopefully, that will not happen.

dando

11-12-08, 07:11 PM

Well, I get a pile of credit card offers each week. Granted, I have not responded to any to see if I qualify for new credit, but I have plenty of available credit now.

I've seen far fewer of them the past month or so. Of course I have to :laugh: or :saywhat: when I just received another offer from AmEx to get a card w/free airline tix. :shakehead

http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/081112/american_express_mover.html?.v=1

:irked:

-Kevin

trish

11-13-08, 10:07 AM

lead on drudge:

FED REFUSES TO IDENTIFY $2,000,000,000,000.00 BANK LOANS

bailout now over 2 trillion dollars overall.

It's now estimated at $5,000,000,000,000 (trillion) and counting. Bailout (http://www.forbes.com/home/2008/11/12/paulson-bernanke-fed-biz-wall-cx_lm_1112bailout.html)

KLang

11-13-08, 10:32 AM

dando

11-13-08, 11:13 AM

Has anyone seen any evidence to support this?

My credit card limits are unchanged. We traded in our X5 for a new one last weekend with dirt cheap financing approved in a matter of minutes.

Credit is available if you have good credit #s. Otherwise, you're SOL. I have seen far fewer offers in the mail recently. I used to see 2-3/day, Now I don't see that many in a week (just chucked another AMEX offer last night, but they pulled the airline ticket offer they were using).

-Kevin

Stu

11-13-08, 11:20 AM

MSNBC changes slogan to "the Power of Change" - http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/10/business/media/10msnbc.html

Clearly a nod to President Elect Barak Obama

MSNBC is owned by GE

General Electric Co. said the U.S. government agreed to insure as much as $139 billion in debt for lending arm GE Capital Corp., the second time in a month it has turned to a federal program designed to help companies during a global credit crunch.

connect the dots?

KLang

11-13-08, 11:22 AM

Credit is available if you have good credit #s. Otherwise, you're SOL. I have seen far fewer offers in the mail recently. I used to see 2-3/day, Now I don't see that many in a week (just chucked another AMEX offer last night, but they pulled the airline ticket offer they were using).

-Kevin

We still get a handfull in the mail daily. :irked:

But shouldn't credit be harder to get if you aren't as creditworthy? Wasn't part of the current mess caused by loaning to people they shouldn't have? :confused:

No idea what these yahoos in Washington are doing.

trish

11-13-08, 11:35 AM

We still get a handfull in the mail daily. :irked:

But shouldn't credit be harder to get if you aren't as creditworthy? Wasn't part of the current mess caused by loaning to people they shouldn't have? :confused:

No idea what these yahoos in Washington are doing.

Isn't our economy driven by consumerism? What do we make anymore? They need us in debt and spending like there's no tomorrow.

Stu

11-13-08, 11:51 AM

Isn't our economy driven by consumerism? What do we make anymore? They need us in debt and spending like there's no tomorrow.

i think the government hopes that if consumers have a ton of debt, they wont see the 11 trillion in debt they have. if americans become frugal, then <gasp> government will have to become frugal.

trish

11-13-08, 12:37 PM

You can gather some more economic data from this article.

Jobless claims surge... (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081113/ap_on_bi_go_ec_fi/financial_meltdown)

Insomniac

11-13-08, 01:28 PM

Insomniac

11-13-08, 01:32 PM

dando

11-13-08, 03:15 PM

But shouldn't credit be harder to get if you aren't as creditworthy? Wasn't part of the current mess caused by loaning to people they shouldn't have? :confused:

Of course, but the banks, etc. jumped the shark looking for more and more peeps to pay 20% on cc balances for a lifetime. The house of cards collapsed when the pool of unworthy credit peeps went belly up. :( Me thinks we have 10+ years to dig out of this mess, if @ all. :(

-Kevin

oddlycalm

11-13-08, 03:38 PM

Has anyone seen any evidence to support this?

My credit card limits are unchanged. We traded in our X5 for a new one last weekend with dirt cheap financing approved in a matter of minutes.
Those with high credit scores, high income to debt ratios and high credit card limits aren't likely to see any changes outside of lower interest rates. It's a real good time to buy a car for anyone in that group, and that includes pretty much everyone at the X5 store.

Not sure where the line is, but people with credit scores that are lower, but considered solid until recently, are seeing big changes. They are having their card limits cut, having cards that they don't use cancelled and having difficulty getting car loans. For people lower on the credit rating scale the doors have simply slammed shut.

oc

oddlycalm

11-13-08, 04:33 PM

if americans become frugal, then <gasp> government will have to become frugal.
No, what they are concerned about is that if Americans become frugal enough we could see unemployment on a scale not seen since the 1930's by late 2009. Unemployment is at an 7yr high and we are only a few weeks into this. The retail sales index is off 55% since mid-September and remains in free fall. Snowballs on steep hills tend to gather momentum and mass quickly.

So far the financial crisis has resulted in the largest disappearance of private wealth and the largest increase in government spending in the history of the world and de facto socialism in the financial industry.

oc

trish

11-13-08, 04:56 PM

And the unemployement figures don't include people who work for places like Linen's and Things, still in the midst of liquidating it's stores.

Stu

11-13-08, 05:46 PM

No, what they are concerned about is that if Americans become frugal enough we could see unemployment on a scale not seen since the 1930's by late 2009. Unemployment is at an 7yr high and we are only a few weeks into this. The retail sales index is off 55% since mid-September and remains in free fall. Snowballs on steep hills tend to gather momentum and mass quickly.

So far the financial crisis has resulted in the largest disappearance of private wealth and the largest increase in government spending in the history of the world and de facto socialism in the financial industry.

oc

1. We are years into this, not weeks, this it's been brewing since the tech bubble.

2. The switch from a nation living on credit to a nation living on production will be a tough one, but its one that needs to happen. But they need to actually make some changes to improve manufacturing. Cut taxes for businesses, which should keep jobs in the US, and maybe encourage companies to move their operations over here for a change. They also need to cut the fat in Washington. President Bush is the first President to oversee a 2 trillion dollar budget, but also the first to oversee a 3 trillion dollar budget. Thats insane, and is one of the root causes of this mess.

trish

11-14-08, 08:14 AM

Watch them laugh at and ridicule Peter Schiff.

A compilation

2I0QN-FYkpw

Stu

11-14-08, 09:15 AM

I read Schiff's book over a year ago and he was spot on with everything, expect his part on how to profit off of this mess.

It was all based on foreign currencies, foreign stocks that pay high dividends, and precious metals. Which are looking just as weak as everything else right now.

However, in the long term, maybe those will rebound faster the overall US market. Depends how Washington continues to F things up.

nrc

11-14-08, 09:00 PM

Watch them laugh at and ridicule Peter Schiff.
I hope that they all aggressively followed their own advice.

SurfaceUnits

11-17-08, 12:13 PM

Citigroup to cut more than 50,000 jobs

New York City-based bank unveils massive layoff plan -- the latest step by the embattled firm to slim down in response to the economic slowdown. Over the past four quarters, the New York City-based bank has trimmed its payroll by 23,000.

No need to worry, you aren't in a recession yet, just ask the Washington talking heads :shakehead

Stu

11-17-08, 12:45 PM

Insomniac

11-17-08, 01:47 PM

by definition with the use of modified statistics we are not.

Fixed that for you.

SurfaceUnits

11-17-08, 01:54 PM

by definition we are not.

by using continuously modified CPI parameters, there is no inflation. yet, everything I bought at the grocery store this weekend was priced higher than the last time I bought it.

Stu

11-17-08, 01:59 PM

Fixed that for you.

agreed. but im still right :D

Insomniac

11-17-08, 03:48 PM

agreed. but im still right :D

And the worst part is when they announce the negative GDP in January and officially declare a recession, we'll really, really be in a recession. They should've cooked them the other way. Of course, they were trying to make themselves look better, not keep citizens properly informed, or tricking us in a way that made us work harder.

oddlycalm

11-17-08, 09:04 PM

But they need to actually make some changes to improve manufacturing.

What would improve manufacturing the most would be to have people that are qualified to run manufacturing companies in charge of running them again. Before Wall Street invented derivatives to sabotage the economy they were already busy killing the industrial base.

What damaged US manufacturing the most were the endless mergers and acquisitions of the last 40yrs. Investment banks made $ trillions by setting up acquisitions of business after business. The money came from high interest bonds in most cases so the resulting new division was saddled with debt and had a new management team that had no idea how to run the business and whose only mission was to squeeze money out of the operation to pay the debt or funnel profits to the parent corporation. Problem is, manufacturing profit margins are not sufficient to support all that debt service and "management fees" to the parent company so the wheels come off before long.

Most of these deals didn't work very well and the only real winner was the investment bankers. I've seen businesses bought and sold half a dozen times to various holding companies before they were weakened to a point where the next recession killed them. The really talented people fall away each time the company changes hands and there is never any money for modernization of equipment and facilities. In manufacturing, like racing, there is no magic wand; you either stay current and innovate or you die.

The Investment Tax Credits of the early 80's were an effort to rebuild the aging industrial infrastructure but because they could be traded they were coopted by Wall Street.

oc

trish

11-18-08, 05:19 PM

JLMannin

11-19-08, 12:32 PM

30 Reasons for Great Depression 2 by 2011 (http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/Well-Great-Depression-2-2011/story.aspx?guid=%7BB28B49B5%2DEFD1%2D4941%2DB57E%2 DA2BA1545BA09%7D&dist=SecMostRead)

I'm still mulling over taking all my cash out of the bank and cashing out of my old 401k. I don't have any confidence in the safety of the banks or the solvency of the FDIC.

Well, for people like me who are still investing $$ in a 401k and are decades from needing the money and are actually considering putting aside more money, I want many more investors like you. The more people cash out of the market, the cheaper stocks get for good, solid comapnies that my funds will invest in. If I stay the course and stay in my 401k now, I will get some serious returns when the market recovers from all the fear now pervading it.

Wall Street - the only store in America that customers run away from when their products go on sale.

trish

11-19-08, 01:58 PM

Well, for people like me who are still investing $$ in a 401k and are decades from needing the money and are actually considering putting aside more money, I want many more investors like you. The more people cash out of the market, the cheaper stocks get for good, solid comapnies that my funds will invest in. If I stay the course and stay in my 401k now, I will get some serious returns when the market recovers from all the fear now pervading it.

Wall Street - the only store in America that customers run away from when their products go on sale.

You may not be getting a deal more than you may be paying closer to what the stock is actually worth. As for my 401k, it's a legacy account and I'm not allowed to add money to it. But good luck to you. Maybe someone will accept a fractional stock certificate for food or mortgage/rent payment. That's assuming things really do get bad. But you're in good company. Lots of folks didn't get out in 1929 either. :D

Mattress outpaces stock market (http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/king-henrys-bank-edict-trigger/story.aspx?guid=%7B52A2D9BC%2DE319%2D44B4%2D8FA7%2 D8FAA0E67BFFE%7D&dist=morenews)

Sean Malone

11-19-08, 02:35 PM

You may not be getting a deal more than you may be paying closer to what the stock is actually worth. As for my 401k, it's a legacy account and I'm not allowed to add money to it. But good luck to you. Maybe someone will accept a fractional stock certificate for food or mortgage/rent payment. That's assuming things really do get bad. But you're in good company. Lots of folks didn't get out in 1929 either. :D

Mattress outpaces stock market (http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/king-henrys-bank-edict-trigger/story.aspx?guid=%7B52A2D9BC%2DE319%2D44B4%2D8FA7%2 D8FAA0E67BFFE%7D&dist=morenews)

I can't get past the authors adolescent babblings to care about his point.

oddlycalm

11-19-08, 05:17 PM

I'm still mulling over taking all my cash out of the bank and cashing out of my old 401k. I don't have any confidence in the safety of the banks or the solvency of the FDIC.
Take a deep breath Trish. Shifting from stocks to T bills is a long way from carrying your life savings around in a suitcase. Paper money in large quantities? Unless you have lived absent banks you may not fully appreciate the security and logistical implications. Paper money is bulky, heavy, subject to physical destructions so you need an absolutely safe place to store it. Safe from fire and safe from anyone knowing it is there, because if anyone does know it's there they can make you tell them how to open whatever it is in. Talking about doing this on an internet forum would also be on the security checklist under things not to do.

In addition, any strategy that assumes the FDIC failing also should assume the Treasury failing which would make paper money worthless. Gold is too heavy to move around with in any meaningful quantity as are Persian rugs. Sewing diamonds into your clothing offers portability but unless you actually know basic gemology and can evaluate quality you won't know what you are buying or selling. Turns out there are some practical reasons we have banks and short of total civil disorder that beat every other method hands down.

Before you let this internet yapper scare you to do something potentially very contrary to your best interests, please take some time to think it through.

oc

trish

11-19-08, 05:38 PM

Take a deep breath Trish. Shifting from stocks to T bills is a long way from carrying your life savings around in a suitcase. Paper money in large quantities? Unless you have lived absent banks you may not fully appreciate the security and logistical implications. Paper money is bulky, heavy, subject to physical destructions so you need an absolutely safe place to store it. Safe from fire and safe from anyone knowing it is there, because if anyone does know it's there they can make you tell them how to open whatever it is in. Talking about doing this on an internet forum would also be on the security checklist under things not to do.

In addition, any strategy that assumes the FDIC failing also should assume the Treasury failing which would make paper money worthless. Gold is too heavy to move around with in any meaningful quantity as are Persian rugs. Sewing diamonds into your clothing offers portability but unless you actually know basic gemology and can evaluate quality you won't know what you are buying or selling. Turns out there are some practical reasons we have banks and short of total civil disorder that beat every other method hands down.

Before you let this internet yapper scare you to do something potentially very contrary to your best interests, please take some time to think it through.

oc

Your username suits you. :D Thanks. I'm not really going to empty my bank account by taking the cash, although I have considered it. I know it's not practical. Right now I'm looking around on the mls to see if housing is getting any more affordable. If I can find a good deal in the next few months I'll buy my first condo/home. I believe bank IRA's are FDIC insured so I've been thinking about rolling the 401k into one of those.

dando

11-19-08, 05:48 PM

Paper money is bulky, heavy, subject to physical destructions so you need an absolutely safe place to store it.

Plus, I've heard it's a biotch to sleep on. ;)

If we ever get to the point when the FDIC and/or the Treasury (aka: money tree) fail, it's time to go find a cave. :(

In other news...Dow below 8K and the Fed may be considering a rate cut next month. I smell Japan's late 80s and early 90s woes redux. :(

-Kevin

SurfaceUnits

11-19-08, 07:28 PM

think there's a housing problem now, wait till the auto industry death puts millions more into foreclosure

JLMannin

11-20-08, 10:58 AM

But you're in good company. Lots of folks didn't get out in 1929 either. :D

Remember that there are two sides to every stock transaction - one cannot sell into a vacuum. For every "sell" transation, there was a corresponding "buy" transaction. Everyone knows that the best investment strategy is to buy low, sell high, but most people I know buy high and sell low - i.e., invest during a bubble and get out after it bursts.

SurfaceUnits

11-20-08, 11:13 AM

like C^RT stockholders hahaha

Sean Malone

11-20-08, 11:48 AM

... invest during a bubble and get out after it bursts.

Which is the hard part. For the average Joe/Jane there's 'bubble denial' and then by the time it's accepted that it is a bubble...it's too late.

JLMannin

11-20-08, 02:25 PM

Which is the hard part. For the average Joe/Jane there's 'bubble denial' and then by the time it's accepted that it is a bubble...it's too late.

Yes, point well taken. By the time the average Joe starts inventing in something, it's already too late.

cameraman

11-20-08, 02:38 PM

Of course some of us invest on the 7th and 22nd of every month, year in and year out. That is how the 403Bs roll.

oddlycalm

11-20-08, 03:20 PM

Which is the hard part. For the average Joe/Jane there's 'bubble denial' and then by the time it's accepted that it is a bubble...it's too late.
Don't look now but it's real hard for the army of so called "experts" as well. It's a fact that few mutual fund managers in any given year manage to beat an S&P index fund and those that beat them year after year are rare indeed. Cramer was excused from managing his hedge fund after proving to his customers decisively that the tech bubble was indeed over and was never coming back. :gomer:

Those that actually follow media pundit accuracy have documented most don't even manage to equal random chance.

oc

SurfaceUnits

11-21-08, 10:53 AM

CitiGroup, one company 50,000 jobs lost; one company

trish

11-21-08, 07:02 PM

Begging for cash? (http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20081120/bs_afp/financeeconomyusgulf_081120072928)

oddlycalm

11-22-08, 04:13 PM

CitiGroup, one company 50,000 jobs lost; one company
Yep, one company that produces exactly nothing. Financial services are a necessary part of commerce but but any real value ends there. Society has no functional requirement for $ trillion bucket shops (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bucket_shop_(stock_market)), and they have, yet again, damaged the real economy, so it's a fair guess they aren't going to be allowed to continue going forward.

Financial service companies have come to dominate our economy, attract the best and brightest people by the tens of thousand by offering the highest pay and create yet another bubble. Seems to me that we are witnessing the inevitable pain as the sector shrinks back to a sustainable size.

oc

trish

11-24-08, 03:03 AM

Citi gets bailed out (http://money.cnn.com/2008/11/23/news/companies/citigroup/index.htm?postversion=2008112400)

Stu

11-24-08, 09:25 AM

so who is going to bail out the US government?

Insomniac

11-24-08, 10:37 AM

so who is going to bail out the US government?

China.

Stu

11-24-08, 10:54 AM

China.

what incentive do they have? as we continue to dig our graves, other markets will become more attractive for chinese products.

china doesnt need us. we need them.

cameraman

11-24-08, 01:40 PM

china doesnt need us. we need them.
:rolleyes:

trish

11-24-08, 03:24 PM

AMqJvhmD5Yg

I thought it was funny and relevant to a degree.

Insomniac

11-24-08, 05:09 PM

what incentive do they have? as we continue to dig our graves, other markets will become more attractive for chinese products.

china doesnt need us. we need them.

Right. We only have the largest GDP. More than 4x bigger than China. More than 3x bigger than #2 (Japan). No one can make up our spending power. We have a trade deficit, so people are sending more here than we're sending out. A lot of people need us. (I also listed China because they actually have a surplus of reserves.)

Sean Malone

11-24-08, 05:32 PM

The market is up today. Everything will be just fine. :)

Stu

11-24-08, 07:16 PM

:rolleyes:

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Stu

11-24-08, 07:17 PM

Right. We only have the largest GDP. More than 4x bigger than China. More than 3x bigger than #2 (Japan). No one can make up our spending power. We have a trade deficit, so people are sending more here than we're sending out. A lot of people need us. (I also listed China because they actually have a surplus of reserves.)

is our money still important to China if it becomes worthless?

cameraman

11-24-08, 08:16 PM

is our money still important to China if it becomes worthless?

If the dollar becomes worthless the Chinese will have no economy and no small amount of civil unrest as a result. They have more to lose than we do.

nrc

11-24-08, 08:34 PM

If the dollar becomes worthless the Chinese will have no economy and no small amount of civil unrest as a result. They have more to lose than we do.

But if the dollar becomes worthless where will we get our toxic dog treats and $25 DVD players? :eek:

cameraman

11-24-08, 08:41 PM

But if the dollar becomes worthless where will we get our toxic dog treats and $25 DVD players? :eek:

Don't worry, the folks in Bentonville will figure something out.

dando

11-24-08, 09:15 PM

china doesnt need us. we need them.

Stu, China is now the #1 owner of US securities, which pays for our massive debt.

-Kevin

SurfaceUnits

11-25-08, 12:38 AM

If you see smoke rising from the BEP, don't worry, the presses are just being pushed a little beyond their rated capacity

SurfaceUnits

11-25-08, 01:09 AM

On Thursday, Kuwait’s daily Al-Seyassah reported that the United States asked four oil-rich Gulf states for nearly $300 billion dollars to help it curb the global financial meltdown.

Washington has asked Saudi Arabia for $120 billion, the United Arab Emirates for $70 billion, Qatar for $60 billion and was seeking $40 billion from Kuwait, the paper said.

Michaelhatesfans

11-25-08, 02:34 AM

If the dollar becomes worthless the Chinese will have no economy and no small amount of civil unrest as a result. They have more to lose than we do.

From what I've seen, the Chinese aren't too bothered about dealing with civil unrest.:laugh:

coolhand

11-25-08, 03:06 AM

trish

11-25-08, 03:13 AM

GM is dumping Tiger Woods. Link (http://www.suntimes.com/sports/golf/1296663,cst-spt-tiger-sponsor112408.article) They have to be paying more for NASCAR programs I'd guess.

Will these companies that get bailed up give up their expesnive naming rights for sports stadiums?

http://www.abcnews.go.com/Blotter/story?id=6321691&page=1

So tax payers are now paying athletes to have mutli-million dollar salaries. :thumdown:

Stu

11-25-08, 08:53 AM

Stu, China is now the #1 owner of US securities, which pays for our massive debt.

-Kevin

well aware.

and what happens when they decide to dump those securities?

Stu

11-25-08, 08:57 AM

If the dollar becomes worthless the Chinese will have no economy and no small amount of civil unrest as a result. They have more to lose than we do.

really? if OUR dollar becomes worthless, they have MORE to lose than us? you sure about that?

the chinese have been moving away from the dollar over time, not towards it. otherwise they would still be pegged to it.

Stu

11-25-08, 09:02 AM

Will these companies that get bailed up give up their expesnive naming rights for sports stadiums?

http://www.abcnews.go.com/Blotter/story?id=6321691&page=1

So tax payers are now paying athletes to have mutli-million dollar salaries. :thumdown:

ummm....

1. they still need to advertise. should they cancel tv advertising as well?

2. contracts are already in place.

TKGAngel

11-25-08, 09:24 AM

ummm....

1. they still need to advertise. should they cancel tv advertising as well?

2. contracts are already in place.

1. All three manufacturers have already pulled back on TV advertising. In addition to their regular spots/network buys, GM bailed on the Oscars earlier this year and has already bailed on the Super Bowl.

2. Two week cancellation windows are a beautiful thing when it comes to canceling TV spots.

3. I really think the Big 3 are going to go after NASCAR even more than they already have. Long gone are the days of "win on Sunday, sell on Monday." The manufacturers are throwing buckets of money at a sport where you can't tell the difference between a Chevy/Dodge/Ford on the track.

Insomniac

11-25-08, 09:41 AM

is our money still important to China if it becomes worthless?

Which is exactly why it's in their interest to make sure it doesn't become worthless. The Chinese can really mess with our currency if their desire was to squeeze us. They aren't stable enough to knock us down.

Insomniac

11-25-08, 09:45 AM

well aware.

and what happens when they decide to dump those securities?

If the dollar is going down hill, who are they going to dump them on? You're talking about hundreds of billions. There isn't exactly a liquid market for that.

Insomniac

11-25-08, 09:51 AM

really? if OUR dollar becomes worthless, they have MORE to lose than us? you sure about that?

the chinese have been moving away from the dollar over time, not towards it. otherwise they would still be pegged to it.

You have to look at why the dollar becomes worthless now. It doesn't simply mean less/more purchasing power. We aren't spending as much as it is. 10% of China's GDP is goods exported just to the US. Global downturn + weak dollar could push China's growth to a couple %.

They were smart enough not to tie their currency to a weak one. Doesn't mean they want the dollar to crumble.

Stu

11-25-08, 09:59 AM

1. All three manufacturers have already pulled back on TV advertising. In addition to their regular spots/network buys, GM bailed on the Oscars earlier this year and has already bailed on the Super Bowl.

2. Two week cancellation windows are a beautiful thing when it comes to canceling TV spots.

3. I really think the Big 3 are going to go after NASCAR even more than they already have. Long gone are the days of "win on Sunday, sell on Monday." The manufacturers are throwing buckets of money at a sport where you can't tell the difference between a Chevy/Dodge/Ford on the track.

the article was about the banks.

TKGAngel

11-25-08, 10:11 AM

the article was about the banks.

Sorry. Got my bailout threads mixed up.

Stu

11-25-08, 10:24 AM

If the dollar is going down hill, who are they going to dump them on? You're talking about hundreds of billions. There isn't exactly a liquid market for that.

right, securities would be worthless. it'd sink our economy. the chinese have threatened to dump their securities on the market before.

Stu

11-25-08, 10:26 AM

You have to look at why the dollar becomes worthless now. It doesn't simply mean less/more purchasing power. We aren't spending as much as it is. 10% of China's GDP is goods exported just to the US. Global downturn + weak dollar could push China's growth to a couple %.

They were smart enough not to tie their currency to a weak one. Doesn't mean they want the dollar to crumble.

earlier you said they have MORE to lose than us.

now you say that if the dollar becomes worthless, their GDP growth would only be a couple %. meanwhile our economy would shrink. how exactly are they losing MORE than us in that scenario?

trish

11-25-08, 10:37 AM

The latest bailout by the Fed for $800 billion. (http://www.reuters.com/article/marketsNews/idUSWEQ00042320081125)

Insomniac

11-25-08, 12:00 PM

right, securities would be worthless. it'd sink our economy. the chinese have threatened to dump their securities on the market before.

Onto what market? Who is going to buy them? If the dollar is tanking, who wants to jump on that ship? If the US Gov't is going bankrupt, who wants to hold that paper? It'll be toxic. Don't you think China wants its money back? They've loaned us nearly 20% of their GDP.

Insomniac

11-25-08, 12:06 PM

earlier you said they have MORE to lose than us.

now you say that if the dollar becomes worthless, their GDP growth would only be a couple %. meanwhile our economy would shrink. how exactly are they losing MORE than us in that scenario?

First, I never said they have more to lose than us. I first said China would keep loaning us money because it's in their best interests for us not to go bankrupt and they have the cash reserves. Their growth is tied to us right now. We hurt, they hurt.

With regards to losing more, depending on the importance you place on it, the Chinese would have a much higher risk of losing control of their country than we will. Our economy tanks and we have rough years, but likely no citizen uprising. China's worst nightmare is their citizens rising up. People are willing to let the government do what it does because things are going so well. They won't look the other way so easily if things aren't going well.

SurfaceUnits

11-25-08, 12:11 PM

The latest bailout by the Fed for $800 billion. (http://www.reuters.com/article/marketsNews/idUSWEQ00042320081125)

wonder who they borrowed that from:shakehead

wonder what the bill is for all the overtime at the Bureau of Engraving and Printing

Insomniac

11-25-08, 12:22 PM

The latest bailout by the Fed for $800 billion. (http://www.reuters.com/article/marketsNews/idUSWEQ00042320081125)

I thought TARP was supposed to buy up the mortgage stuff? And now "$200 billion facility to buy consumer debt securities"? Is that credit card debt?

KLang

11-25-08, 12:47 PM

I thought TARP was supposed to buy up the mortgage stuff?

That was my first thought as well. :confused:

Cashing out and an early retirement to Central or South America is looking better every day. :(

trish

11-25-08, 12:50 PM

I thought TARP was supposed to buy up the mortgage stuff? And now "$200 billion facility to buy consumer debt securities"? Is that credit card debt?

Yeah, credit card debt.

trish

11-25-08, 01:04 PM

I thought TARP was supposed to buy up the mortgage stuff? And now "$200 billion facility to buy consumer debt securities"? Is that credit card debt?

Before they decided to bail out the financial markets instead by buying an ownership interest with the first $700 billion. At least I think that's what happened. I'm past being confused. It's become like a shell game.

SurfaceUnits

11-25-08, 01:13 PM

what court created the 'Office of President Elect'?

trish

11-25-08, 01:19 PM

what court created the 'Office of President Elect'?

Huh?

KLang

11-25-08, 01:21 PM

Please don't force this thread to be closed. :irked:

cameraman

11-25-08, 01:32 PM

the chinese have threatened to dump their securities on the market before.
The Chinese have invest hundreds of billions in US securities, if they become worthless the Chinese lose hundreds of billions of dollars. Their investment is in US dollars, if the Chinese do anything to undermine the dollar the Chinese will lose more than anyone else because they own more than anyone else.

oddlycalm

11-25-08, 03:32 PM

The Chinese have invest hundreds of billions in US securities, if they become worthless the Chinese lose hundreds of billions of dollars. Their investment is in US dollars, if the Chinese do anything to undermine the dollar the Chinese will lose more than anyone else because they own more than anyone else.

Exactly right, and the amount approaches $2 trillion. They may question the long term wisdom of that move, but then they would need an alternative.

BTW, I thought it was Paulson's job to help instill confidence in the market. Instead, he's changing his mind as often as a teenage girl shopping for shoes at the mall. It's almost like he wants to make things worse. :confused:

oc