Congratulations Taxpayers, you now own an insurance company

[coolhand]

really? if OUR dollar becomes worthless, they have MORE to lose than us? you sure about that?

the chinese have been moving away from the dollar over time, not towards it. otherwise they would still be pegged to it.

uhh No, cameraman is right. China's government has huge legitimacy issues once their economy crashes. They were not elected.

Also, China cannot just sell off its Trillions of Foreign Exchange Reserves. You cannot move that entire volume fast enough not to devalue the 90% you have not sold when you already dumped 10% of it. That is cutting your nose to spite your face. As long as we are China's biggest trading partner they are literally stuck. What nation will replace the USA's buying power?

[Stu]

The Chinese have invest hundreds of billions in US securities, if they become worthless the Chinese lose hundreds of billions of dollars. Their investment is in US dollars, if the Chinese do anything to undermine the dollar the Chinese will lose more than anyone else because they own more than anyone else.

wouldn't we hold more dollars than China? wouldn't we be the ones hurt more than anyone else.

and again, thats fine if thats what you say. but they have threatened to dump them.

[Stu]

uhh No, cameraman is right. China's government has huge legitimacy issues once their economy crashes. They were not elected.

Also, China cannot just sell off its Trillions of Foreign Exchange Reserves. You cannot move that entire volume fast enough not to devalue the 90% you have not sold when you already dumped 10% of it. That is cutting your nose to spite your face. As long as we are China's biggest trading partner they are literally stuck. What nation will replace the USA's buying power?

the EU.

[Insomniac]

BTW, I thought it was Paulson's job to help instill confidence in the market. Instead, he's changing his mind as often as a teenage girl shopping for shoes at the mall. It's almost like he wants to make things worse. :confused:

The approach at this point is anything and everything. No one will have any idea if anything worked. Might as well have just let this mess play out at the rate they're going. Now the excuse is "it would've been even worse".

[Stu]

First, I never said they have more to lose than us.

Cameraman said that, my mistake.

[Insomniac]

the EU.

They aren't in any better shape than we are. They already propped up industries before this mess and they are pumping tons of money now just as we are.

[JLMannin]

The approach at this point is anything and everything. No one will have any idea if anything worked. Might as well have just let this mess play out at the rate they're going. Now the excuse is "it would've been even worse".

Wow, where have I heard that one before?

"If TG had not done anything, just imaging how much worse open wheel would be today?"

[oddlycalm]

The approach at this point is anything and everything. No one will have any idea if anything worked. Might as well have just let this mess play out at the rate they're going. Now the excuse is "it would've been even worse".

You're right, but when Treasury is cutting sweetheart deals with Citi with Bob Rubin sitting at the negotiating table it will leave a sour taste in a lot of people's mouthes, mine included.

oc

[SurfaceUnits]

the latest money grab puts the tally at somewhere north of 2.5 trillion

[OW]

I always thought there should come the day that we say (as a country) "forget it - we don't owe you anthing - RESET")

Well this thought may actually be playing out...

PRINT IT!!!!! (the dollar)

[OW]

the latest money grab puts the tally at somewhere north of 2.5 trillion

I heard 7.7 trillion predicted

[oddlycalm]

The watchdog should get confirmed about the time there is nothing left to watch...:gomer:

Neil M. Barofsky belatedly nominated (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/11/17/AR2008111703257.html)

oc

[SurfaceUnits]

That new bailout, announced Tuesday, will be financed by a different pile of funding - most likely from the printing of more money. The Federal Reserve and Treasury Department said they will allocate $800 billion more to go to holders of loans backed by consumer debt in an attempt to jumpstart lending by the nation's banks for mortgages, credit card purchases and cars.

http://money.cnn.com/2008/11/25/news/economy/where_bailout_stands/index.htm

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/28/Hundred_billion_dollars_and_eggs.jpg
Zimbabwe's $100 billion banknote with
the number of eggs it could purchase
on its release date

On the upside, everyone in Zimbabwe is a millionaire

[Stu]

They aren't in any better shape than we are. They already propped up industries before this mess and they are pumping tons of money now just as we are.

they will be when this dollar bubble bursts.

[trish]

That new bailout, announced Tuesday, will be financed by a different pile of funding - most likely from the printing of more money. The Federal Reserve and Treasury Department said they will allocate $800 billion more to go to holders of loans backed by consumer debt in an attempt to jumpstart lending by the nation's banks for mortgages, credit card purchases and cars.

http://money.cnn.com/2008/11/25/news/economy/where_bailout_stands/index.htm

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/28/Hundred_billion_dollars_and_eggs.jpg
Zimbabwe's $100 billion banknote with
the number of eggs it could purchase
on its release date

On the upside, everyone in Zimbabwe is a millionaire

It's nice to have a summary. Just in case anyone didn't know, the increase of FDIC insurance to $250,000 per individual expires after Decemeber 31, 2009. http://www.fdic.gov/about/learn/symbol/index.html

[tllips]

It's nice to have a summary. Just in case anyone didn't know, the increase of FDIC insurance to $250,000 per individual expires after Decemeber 31, 2009. http://www.fdic.gov/about/learn/symbol/index.html

I don't have a link, but I read in the Wall Street Journal (about the time the amount was increased to 250K) that it is expected by all parties the $250K will be made permanent before 12/31/09.

Also, currently all non-interest bearing accounts are guaranteed regardless of the amount and banks will have the option next year of paying a separate insurance to continue this guarantee. I have spoken to three different banks in the last month and all three stated that they would most likely continue to insure these accounts rather than risk a run by customers to banks that do continue this guarantee.

[oddlycalm]

I don't have a link, but I read in the Wall Street Journal (about the time the amount was increased to 250K) that it is expected by all parties the $250K will be made permanent before 12/31/09.

Also, currently all non-interest bearing accounts are guaranteed regardless of the amount and banks will have the option next year of paying a separate insurance to continue this guarantee. I have spoken to three different banks in the last month and all three stated that they would most likely continue to insure these accounts rather than risk a run by customers to banks that do continue this guarantee.

Sheila Bair at FDIC is likely to emerge as the real hero of this crisis. Not only did she seemlessly transfer over 9% of all bank accounts in the US, largely without notice, as well as extend the covered limits, but she seems to have a better grasp of what needs to be done than the people at Treasury do. She has 151 banks on her trouble list but I get the feeling that whatever happens she will handle it.

oc

[SurfaceUnits]

Hank must be doing something right; I just had two credit cards increase my limit and give 0% for a year

[SurfaceUnits]

It's official: Recession since Dec. '07

sorry lying bastards

which one of you said we weren't in a recession?

[Methanolandbrats]

Hank must be doing something right; I just had two credit cards increase my limit and give 0% for a year Credit card bubble :gomer:

[Michaelhatesfans]

Credit card bubble :gomer:

I have no problems with bailing out the credit card companies. But if they miss one payment by a day, it's going to be at 32% interest. Fair's fair.

[SurfaceUnits]

Feds to expand financial rescue
Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson said more needs to be done. The agency is 'actively' developing additional programs to boost lending.

By Tami Luhby, CNNMoney.com senior writer
December 1, 2008: 3:34 PM ET

NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- The federal government is reviewing applications from hundreds of banks seeking rescue funding and is "actively" developing new programs to right the nation's unsettled financial system, Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson said Monday.

http://money.cnn.com/2008/12/01/news/economy/paulson_speaks/index.htm?postversion=2008120115

The collapse is upon us; hope you got more than dollars to see you through

[Insomniac]

I have no problems with bailing out the credit card companies. But if they miss one payment by a day, it's going to be at 32% interest. Fair's fair.

:D

[trish]

Feds to expand financial rescue
Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson said more needs to be done. The agency is 'actively' developing additional programs to boost lending.

By Tami Luhby, CNNMoney.com senior writer
December 1, 2008: 3:34 PM ET

NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- The federal government is reviewing applications from hundreds of banks seeking rescue funding and is "actively" developing new programs to right the nation's unsettled financial system, Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson said Monday.

http://money.cnn.com/2008/12/01/news/economy/paulson_speaks/index.htm?postversion=2008120115

The collapse is upon us; hope you got more than dollars to see you throughI've been wondering if my bank has an application in. They have an excellent rating, but you never know. I've been watching their REO list and they're up to $6,443,700 in REO's. Of that $5,050,000 represents two commercial properties. Hopefully there's not a lot more to come.

I noticed through you link that JP Morgan Chase is going to cut 9,700 WaMu jobs. http://money.cnn.com/2008/12/01/news/companies/chase_layoffs/index.htm

[SurfaceUnits]

Checkout these two articles to see what shape the financial system is in:

Citigroup Failure Imminent
by Martin D. Weiss, Ph.D.
Sunday, November 23, 2008 | 7:30 AM
Citigroup, the nation’s second largest banking conglomerate, is on the brink of failure. Its stock price collapse is the canary in the coal mine,
http://www.moneyandmarkets.com/citigroup-failure-imminent-6-28244

Citigroup collapses! Banking Shutdown Possible
by Martin D. Weiss, Ph.D.
Monday, November 24, 2008 | 10:00 AM
It pains me deeply to announce that, despite the massive government rescue, yesterday’s collapse of Citigroup could ultimately lead to a shutdown of the global banking system
http://www.moneyandmarkets.com/citigroup-collapses-banking-shutdown-possible-28325

[trish]

Checkout these two articles to see what shape the financial system is in:

Citigroup Failure Imminent
by Martin D. Weiss, Ph.D.
Sunday, November 23, 2008 | 7:30 AM
Citigroup, the nation’s second largest banking conglomerate, is on the brink of failure. Its stock price collapse is the canary in the coal mine,
http://www.moneyandmarkets.com/citigroup-failure-imminent-6-28244

Citigroup collapses! Banking Shutdown Possible
by Martin D. Weiss, Ph.D.
Monday, November 24, 2008 | 10:00 AM
It pains me deeply to announce that, despite the massive government rescue, yesterday’s collapse of Citigroup could ultimately lead to a shutdown of the global banking system
http://www.moneyandmarkets.com/citigroup-collapses-banking-shutdown-possible-28325

I haven't read the articles yet, will do momentarily. Looking at the bailout summary again, we've given Citi $45 billion in cash and guaranteed $300 billion, and they still may fail? I suppose we'd then be out of that $300 billion too.

[trish]

“Your money is still safely guaranteed,” banking officials will declare. “You just can’t have it now.”

This is what I'm afraid of. That second article is scary. I think they've sold me on treasury notes. I'm going to look into those.

[nrc]

I haven't read the articles yet, will do momentarily. Looking at the bailout summary again, we've given Citi $45 billion in cash and guaranteed $300 billion, and they still may fail? I suppose we'd then be out of that $300 billion too.

Did I miss the part where their execs were dragged in front of congress for a public lynching and a "come back later and we'll think about it?"

[trish]

Did I miss the part where their execs were dragged in front of congress for a public lynching and a "come back later and we'll think about it?"

I don't think they got much of a hassle getting their money...either time. First they were given $25 billion and we recently gave them another $20 billion plus the asset guarantee. Helping GM would only help the little guys. We can't have the ruling class brought down to the level of us peons just because they gambled and lost. We'll be working long and hard to pay off their debts.

[Insomniac]

Did I miss the part where their execs were dragged in front of congress for a public lynching and a "come back later and we'll think about it?"

The financial companies just need to make back room deals over the weekend. The Big 3 execs are likely contractually obligated to use their private jets, but Wall Streeters blow cash on events and bonuses, who cares.

[SurfaceUnits]

A European-style tax?
Like it or not, there's only one way we're going to be able to pay for our ballooning deficit: a value-added tax.

By Shawn Tully, editor at large
Last Updated: December 2, 2008: 9:27 AM ET

NEW YORK (Fortune) -- It's highly possible, if not inevitable, that Americans will soon live under a radically different tax system - one that the pundits and politicians aren't talking about.

It's called a value-added tax, or VAT, and it's been used for decades to pay the bills and sustain the immense growth of governments around the world, from France to Mexico to Australia. Created in 1954 by a French economist, the VAT is the most potent, efficient machine for revenue generation yet invented.

And if there's one thing the U.S. government needs as the federal budget balloons, it's a ton of new revenue.

http://money.cnn.com/2008/12/01/news/economy/tully_vat.fortune/index.htm?postversion=2008120209

[Insomniac]

A European-style tax?
Like it or not, there's only one way we're going to be able to pay for our ballooning deficit: a value-added tax.

By Shawn Tully, editor at large
Last Updated: December 2, 2008: 9:27 AM ET

NEW YORK (Fortune) -- It's highly possible, if not inevitable, that Americans will soon live under a radically different tax system - one that the pundits and politicians aren't talking about.

It's called a value-added tax, or VAT, and it's been used for decades to pay the bills and sustain the immense growth of governments around the world, from France to Mexico to Australia. Created in 1954 by a French economist, the VAT is the most potent, efficient machine for revenue generation yet invented.

And if there's one thing the U.S. government needs as the federal budget balloons, it's a ton of new revenue.

http://money.cnn.com/2008/12/01/news/economy/tully_vat.fortune/index.htm?postversion=2008120209

I already pay 7.3% state/local sales tax. You think a federal sales tax/VAT is going to be added to that?

[SurfaceUnits]

Apparently; it's added to the material that makes up a product; so the consumer sees it as higher priced items; the tax is paid by the producers

The thing that is maddening about this whole situation is this:
The only real debt is the bad mortgages, that have been estimated at under a trillion dollars (that's what the 700 billion was supposed to cover). What Paulson is doing is spending trillions of taxpayer dollars to cover the bad bets his friends and cronies on Wall Street made. His head should be in a basket behind a guillotine

[SurfaceUnits]

Look at all the crap they are doing for AIG

http://money.cnn.com/2008/12/02/news/companies/AIG/index.htm?postversion=2008120306

[SurfaceUnits]

NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- The U.S. economy shed a quarter-million private-sector jobs in November, according to a payroll processor's report that was worse than economists expected.

Non-farm private employment fell by 250,000 jobs from the previous month

"It's impossible to find any ray of light here," said ADP spokesman Joel Prakken in a conference call with reporters. "All of the major industries that we record had declines in employment."

The goods-producing sector lost 158,000 jobs last month, its 24th consecutive month of decline, according to the report. This includes 118,000 positions in manufacturing and 44,000 construction jobs.

The service industry shed 92,000 jobs, its second month of losses since the ADP reports began tracking employment in 2002.

Medium-sized businesses, with between 50 and 499 workers, were the hardest-hit part of the economy, hemorrhaging 130,000 jobs last month. Large businesses, with at least 500 workers, lost 41,000 jobs. Small businesses, with less than 50 workers, lost 79,000 positions.

Prakken said he expected to see "a string of very weak employment reports" going forward. He added that "declines in employment between 300,000 and 500,000 in the coming months would not surprise me."

The ADP also revised its reading for October, to a loss of 179,000 jobs from the previously reported loss of 157,000.

http://money.cnn.com/2008/12/03/news/economy/ADP/index.htm?postversion=2008120309

[trish]

If China continues to devalue their currency and they are selling off their US treasury holdings, what's going to happen to our economy?

[Insomniac]

If China continues to devalue their currency and they are selling off their US treasury holdings, what's going to happen to our economy?

It could be a mess, I don't see it happening though. They've been doing it real slow. The US can hit back hard if China tries to overtly manipulate the US dollar. As I said before, the two of us are intertwined. They need us as a trade partner.

[Insomniac]

Here's a long, but good article on the unraveling of the financial industry specifically about housing, derivatives and CDOs. The end makes a good point. If the companies had stayed private and the losses/profits were all on the partner's hands, this never would've happened.

http://www.portfolio.com/news-markets/national-news/portfolio/2008/11/11/The-End-of-Wall-Streets-Boom

[SurfaceUnits]

Tribune files for bankruptcy protection
Posted: Dec 8, 2008 02:00 PM

New York - Media conglomerate Tribune Co. filed for bankruptcy protection Monday, as the owner of the Chicago Tribune, the Los Angeles Times, the Chicago Cubs and other properties tries to deal with $13 billion in debt.

Advertising revenue declined severely this year because of the recession, putting pressure on the Chicago-based company. Most of its debt comes from the complex transaction in which the company was taken private, with employee ownership, by real estate mogul Sam Zell last year.

Although the next major principal payment on the debt, of $593 million, isn't due until June, analysts say Tribune has been in danger of missing lender-imposed financial targets at year's end.

Those targets are based on the level of debt relative to cash flow and become harder to meet as revenue declines, even if the debt itself doesn't increase.

Monday's filing, made in bankruptcy court in Delaware, could give Tribune time to raise cash by selling off assets in a tight credit market. It also could put additional pressure on its lenders to ease their targets, possibly in exchange for higher interest rates, as many other newspaper companies already have done.

The company entered court protection with $13 billion in debt and $7.6 billion in assets.

Zell told employees in a memo that the Cubs franchise is not part of the bankruptcy filing. He also said the company's operations, including newspapers and broadcast outlets, will function as before during the bankruptcy protection period.

[SurfaceUnits]

NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- Dow Chemical Co. said Monday it will streamline its business by cutting about 5,000 jobs, closing plants and shedding assets.

In response to poor market conditions, Midland, Mich.-based Dow (DOW, Fortune 500) said it will eliminate about 11% of its global workforce.

The company also said it plans to close 20 facilities and shed high-cost assets and several non-strategic businesses. It will also idle 180 plants and cut 6,000 global contractors.

[SurfaceUnits]

SEATTLE (ELF) -- The US Forestry Department is clear cutting old growth forest in the Pacific northwest in an effort to keep the supply of paper flowing to the Treasury Department printing presses. Bernanke and Paulson are quoted as saying the financial situation takes precedent over any environmental concerns and that new growth forests are better for the economy anyway.

[oddlycalm]

SEATTLE (ELF) -- The US Forestry Department is clear cutting old growth forest in the Pacific northwest in an effort to keep the supply of paper flowing to the Treasury Department printing presses.
:laugh:

In other news stocks scored an upside reversal Friday 12/5 in the face of the weakest employment numbers in three decades. Color me surprised. Seems the market is all sold out, at least for the moment. The major indexes may even close above their 50 day moving averages this week....:eek: It remains to be seen if this is a momentary pause or whether we are actually seeing the beginnings of a bottom forming.

oc

[Insomniac]

I've been wondering, is someone making a killing on the other end of all these derivatives? My understanding is it is a two sided contract. Who is making insane money and are they public?

[SurfaceUnits]

it's wall street's form of insurance/ponzi . A small wager for a potential large payout if something goes wrong. I know there was a story the other day saying BoA has $3.94 of potential losses for every $ they have in assets. That doesn't include all its other operations and obligations, just the derivatives. that's why it got so hairy; the other banks have lesser exposure but still extensive - trillions $$$$

[SurfaceUnits]

8 really, really scary predictions
Dow 4,000. Food shortages. A bubble in Treasury notes.

http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2008/fortune/0812/gallery.market_gurus.fortune/index.html

[cameraman]

There are some gross overstatements buried in there...


Farmers cannot get a loan to buy fertilizer right now.
Bollocks, our credit is fine and we will be able to get what we need.
If a farmer's credit is bad to begin with it will be another story.


Meanwhile, every day the supply of commodities shrinks more and more.
I've got a few thousand bushels of soybeans sitting in a silo right now, anyone want to actually pay me for them? For being such a tight market the price/bushel sure is dropping like a damn rock.

[SurfaceUnits]

former Nasdaq stock market chairman runs a massive Ponzi scheme

Big investors may lose in alleged $50B fraud
The list of potential victims in what is said to be a massive Ponzi scheme run by money manager Bernard Madoff continues to grow.

Investors who put their fortunes in the hands of arrested New York money manager Bernard Madoff are waiting to hear how much of their stake is left.

The roster of potential victims in what prosecutors said was a $50 billion Ponzi scheme has grown exponentially longer in the past few days.

http://money.cnn.com/2008/12/14/news/bc.na.us.wallstreet.arr.ap/index.htm?postversion=2008121412

[emjaya]

former Nasdaq stock market chairman runs a massive Ponzi scheme

Big investors may lose in alleged $50B fraud
The list of potential victims in what is said to be a massive Ponzi scheme run by money manager Bernard Madoff continues to grow.

Investors who put their fortunes in the hands of arrested New York money manager Bernard Madoff are waiting to hear how much of their stake is left.

The roster of potential victims in what prosecutors said was a $50 billion Ponzi scheme has grown exponentially longer in the past few days.

http://money.cnn.com/2008/12/14/news/bc.na.us.wallstreet.arr.ap/index.htm?postversion=2008121412


Wtf is a Ponzi scheme (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ponzi_scheme). :gomer:


First, federal authorities say the 70-year-old Madoff surprised the unidentified family member by saying he wanted to pass out hefty annual bonuses two months earlier than usual, court papers said. :flame:

They should start dragging these clowns out in the middle of Wall st and hang them by the neck from a street light.

[SurfaceUnits]

if you didn't see tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick you should

[Insomniac]

About time someone rich felt some pain (until the gov't bails out the fund).

[SurfaceUnits]

A Second Mortgage Disaster On The Horizon?

The mortgage mess that touched off the financial meltdown is far from over, with a second wave of expected defaults on the way that could deepen the bottom of this recession. Scott Pelley

http://www.cbsnews.com/sections/60minutes/main3415.shtml

[oddlycalm]

They should start dragging these clowns out in the middle of Wall st and hang them by the neck from a street light.

While we can all appreciate the sentiment that's not going to happen. It is time for a look at more serious consequences. This rises to the level of economic terrorism IMO and should be dealt with accordingly. The SEC didn't have a sniff of this, even though they were warned, and the limp enforcement from them and DOJ has been pathetic in recent years.

Fraud on a grand scale requires enforcement on a grand scale, not a release on bail and a few years concrete vacation at Club Fed. Remand to custody until trial and life in a supermax sounds about right. Give others pondering large scale fraud something very real to contemplate. They also need to release pictures of these creeps on the anniversary of their incarceration so others can see what happens to them after years of hard time.

oc

[SurfaceUnits]

It is a systematic failure with people up and down the line culpable of/for something. If they started hangings, the people doing the hanging today would be the ones hung tomorrow, in a perfect world.

[SurfaceUnits]

What sap at the SEC gets to take the fall for the latest failure in oversite:confused:

[Insomniac]

What sap at the SEC gets to take the fall for the latest failure in oversite:confused:

It should always fall at Cox's feet if it has to do with the SEC.

[JLMannin]

What sap at the SEC gets to take the fall for the latest failure in oversite:confused:

How much oversight can a federal agency have over a deregulated industry? Perhaps our collective anger should be directed at those who pushed for deregulation over the last decade or so.

[SurfaceUnits]

deregulation is not the same as unregulated, which appears to be the case here

[Ankf00]

Credit Suisse paying bonuses w/ illiquid assets :laugh:

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=abJOQQI18SAE&refer=home


The new policy applies only to managing directors and directors, the two most senior ranks at the Zurich-based company, according to a memo sent to employees today

[oddlycalm]

Credit Suisse paying bonuses w/ illiquid assets :laugh:

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=abJOQQI18SAE&refer=home

Nice solution. :thumbup: I'm thinking next time we have a food recall the agri biz execs should take their bonuses in tainted food...:D That would work at the auto companies as well. The execs should have the pleasure of driving the cars their company had to buy back under the lemon laws.

oc

[Insomniac]

Nice solution. :thumbup: I'm thinking next time we have a food recall the agri biz execs should take their bonuses in tainted food...:D That would work at the auto companies as well. The execs should have the pleasure of driving the cars their company had to buy back under the lemon laws.

oc

Seems like incentive for them to increase their value. We did this already with stock options. They will do anything to raise the value, even temporarily so they can dump it.

[trish]

Make room for the hedge funds (http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/989db158-ce30-11dd-8b30-000077b07658.html)

[Methanolandbrats]

Make room for the hedge funds (http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/989db158-ce30-11dd-8b30-000077b07658.html) That is not a good development. :mad:

[cameraman]

Oh? How do you figure that?

[Methanolandbrats]

Oh? How do you figure that?Most of them are run by gunslingers whose only goal is to grab as much money as they can as quickly as possible. They are the exact opposite of long-term investing and the proliferation of hedge funds is one of the reasons we are in this mess.

[oddlycalm]

A lot of alleged experts with expensive educations have been ideologically wrong and wrong in a practice. Lack of regulation means lack of transparency and that means an absence of confidence and chaos. It's no longer theoretical, it's a fact and we are living it.

Hedge fund managers can be charter members of the crooks and liars club or they can be solid professionals, and we have no way of knowing. The problem is that many institutions have (stupidly IMO) placed most of the pension, charitable foundation and other import funds in their hands in order to maximize returns. Everyone was looking for record returns every year, and that's like believing in the tooth fairy.

Now we are faced with the reality that allowing them to tank would be similar to allowing the auto companies to go chapter 7 and the banks to fail. The big losers will be all of us. Hedge funds need to either be subject to total transparency or they need to be unwound and outlawed, but we need to get to that point without wiping out half of the county's pension funds in the process.

oc

[Insomniac]

They need to force the borrowing hedge funds to deleverage their assets and also open their books to what they do to some oversight board. These guys have built a house of cards with all the leveraging and assets that aren't even tangible (derivatives). They're akin to simply gambling.

Also, I only say this because they are loaning them money. They shouldn't loan them money at all. Their clients were supplied the disclaimer.

Every industry that wants a loan, the government should add regulation to prevent the same mess from happening again before loaning the money. They should've already regulated all the derivatives markets and put higher cash requirements when leveraging.

I'd love to buy stock with 3% of what I need to cover losses and be allowed to continue to lose money without my broker calling me.

[SurfaceUnits]

Grand total lost over the past year: $7.2 trillion.

http://images.moneyandmarkets.com/1195/img4.jpg

http://www.moneyandmarkets.com/gala-issue-biggest-sea-change-of-our-lifetime-3-28912

[Methanolandbrats]

http://www.itulip.com/images/globalhedgefunds.gif

[Ankf00]

Commercial Real Estate is next

http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/US-developers-look-a-bailout/story.aspx?guid=%7BB3728153-D510-427B-871C-EC18F23E4FBA%7D


Some of the nation's biggest property developers are asking the government for assistance as a record amount of commercial real-estate debt comes due, according to a report in The Wall Street Journal on Monday. The industry is reportedly asking to be included in a new $200 billion loan program initially created by the government to assist the market for student loans, car loans and credit-card debt. The industry is warning that thousands of office complexes, hotels, shopping centers and other commercial buildings are headed for defaults, foreclosures and bankruptcies, owing to some $530 million of commercial mortgages that will be coming due for refinancing in the next three years. They say that this poses another major threat to the global financial system, already severely weakened. In a recent letter to Henry Paulson, signed by a dozen real-estate trade groups, the scenario was described as grim. "Right now, we believe there is insufficient systemic capacity to refinance expiring, performing commercial real-estate loans. For many borrowers, [credit] simply is not available

[SurfaceUnits]

Still have the other half or more of the home mortgages to go through as well

http://www.offcamber.net/forums/showpost.php?p=247716&postcount=551

[nrc]

Commercial Real Estate is next

http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/US-developers-look-a-bailout/story.aspx?guid=%7BB3728153-D510-427B-871C-EC18F23E4FBA%7D

Frankly, it's another bubble that needs to burst. Sure, try to find a way to bring it down in a way that doesn't drag everything else with it, but the overbuilding in commercial real estate is almost as bad as in the residential market.

Maybe businesses wouldn't be so quick to abandon existing stores to move out to the next suburb if they couldn't find a buyer for their old building. A building that will stand empty until someone tears it down in 15 years.

[oddlycalm]

Every industry that wants a loan, the government should add regulation to prevent the same mess from happening again before loaning the money. They should've already regulated all the derivatives markets and put higher cash requirements when leveraging.

I'd love to buy stock with 3% of what I need to cover losses and be allowed to continue to lose money without my broker calling me.
Agreed on both. Not only is transparency necessary but we need an end to the two tiered system where there is one set of regulation and enforcement for the very wealthy and a different one for everyone else.

The "financial services" people have so much money and influence that everyone has also lost track of the fact that they don't produce anything. We need financial services in the same way we need utility companies, but what we don't need is a crew of high end grifters running a game at everyone elses expense.

Confine their activities to services society actually needs and prevent them from engaging in the rest of it. Whether it's mergers and acquisitions financed with junk bonds or securitization of debt, I'm not seeing any upside for anyone but a few and the massive downside for everyone else has been catastrophic. We have a once in a century opportunity to get our boot on their neck and if we fail to do it we and our kids and grand kids will regret it.

We outlawed bucket shops in the 1930's and it worked, so we already know what the right answer is. The greatest widespread prosperity in history occurred under those regulations, so arguments to the contrary can be disregarded IMO.

oc

[Ankf00]

another thing with CRE is basically the only instrument available to them involves a massive balloon payment. it's only available to them b/c that's all they want. F 'em.

next up: Retail

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123007573825931553.html


The National Retail Federation called for three periods of sales tax-free shopping that would last 10 days each in March, July and October 2009. The trade group estimates that it would save consumers about $20 billion, or $175 per family.

Under the industry group's proposal, which would exclude alcohol and tobacco sales, the federal government would reimburse states for the lost tax revenue. State sales tax rates range from 2.9% to 7.25%, the group said. The five states without a sales tax -- Alaska, Delaware, Montana, New Hampshire and Oregon -- would also receive monies.

In a letter signed by the chief executives of retail chains, including J.C. Penney Co., Saks Inc. and Petsmart Inc., the NRF warned the situation was "critical," with consumer confidence in October falling to the lowest level in the 41 years data has been collected.

"Without swift, additional Congressional measures, the current economic weakness could worsen, creating a more rapid downward spiral -- beyond what economists are predicting for 2009 -- in the years ahead," the NRF said.


up after that should be Indian/Asian-American engineers. $50,000,000/per. Would single-handedly save the Silicon Valley housing market. Sounds fair to me. :gomer:

[Insomniac]

Commercial Real Estate is next

http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/US-developers-look-a-bailout/story.aspx?guid=%7BB3728153-D510-427B-871C-EC18F23E4FBA%7D

I saw on CNN the other day, the guys who own Chrysler were partners in a department store chain and they sold all the land that the company owned (that their stores were located on) and when faced with the cost of paying rent, the company went bankrupt.

[Insomniac]

next up: Retail

I don't see how creating temporary bubbles help here. Yes, cutting taxes increases spending, but it's artificial. But when everyone dumps it on a credit card, that's not going to help to do more than prop up credit card derivatives a few more weeks.


up after that should be Indian/Asian-American engineers. $50,000,000/per. Would single-handedly save the Silicon Valley housing market. Sounds fair to me. :gomer:

I'd be mad on principle, but I promise to spend some of it. ;)

[Tifosi24]

I saw on CNN the other day, the guys who own Chrysler were partners in a department store chain and they sold all the land that the company owned (that their stores were located on) and when faced with the cost of paying rent, the company went bankrupt.

People have to remember that Cerebus is a private equity firm and their sole goal is to make money fast and then sell, so in the case of the retail firm Cerebus made their return and they could care less about the future fate of the retail establishment. The fact that Cerebus is getting a government bailout is a bit sickening to me.

The sales tax holiday, like the stimulus checks last spring, is based on the premise that consumers will go crazy shopping. If unemployment during 2009 is in the 8-10 percent range, which is the range I saw in the latest Blue Chip Economic Indicators publications, and families are worried about whether or not mom or dad will keep their job, a sales tax holiday isn't going to make them rush out to the stores. The fundamentals in the economy need attention before these gimmicks will have any substantive effect.

[Insomniac]

People have to remember that Cerebus is a private equity firm and their sole goal is to make money fast and then sell, so in the case of the retail firm Cerebus made their return and they could care less about the future fate of the retail establishment. The fact that Cerebus is getting a government bailout is a bit sickening to me.

The sales tax holiday, like the stimulus checks last spring, is based on the premise that consumers will go crazy shopping. If unemployment during 2009 is in the 8-10 percent range, which is the range I saw in the latest Blue Chip Economic Indicators publications, and families are worried about whether or not mom or dad will keep their job, a sales tax holiday isn't going to make them rush out to the stores. The fundamentals in the economy need attention before these gimmicks will have any substantive effect.

I really meant that as an example of why retail is next. :) I wonder what happened to all the money they made after selling it. Did they then sell off the department store? Or did they shuffle around money and file for bankruptcy?

A sales tax holiday will do two things. Delay purchases that can be delayed until there is one and accelerate planned or immediate future purchases if possible. I doubt it would seriously increase spending. Stimulus checks don't work either. (They would if given out during good times, but that never happens.)

[SurfaceUnits]

And the big S&P 500 winner this year was that economic powerhouse ---> Family Dollar Stores

[Ankf00]

http://dilbert.com/dyn/str_strip/000000000/00000000/0000000/000000/30000/4000/800/34812/34812.strip.gif

[emjaya]

TWO porn moguls are seeking a $US5 billion ($7 billion) bailout from Washington, arguing that the limp US economy has thrown cold water on the adult entertainment industry.

Hustler magazine founder Larry Flynt and Girls Gone Wild video series creator Joe Francis have asked Congress "to rejuvenate the sexual appetite of America" in a bailout move similar to the one set aside for US car makers.


"Congress seems willing to help shore up our nation's most important businesses, (and) we feel we deserve the same consideration," Francis said.

"In difficult economic times, Americans turn to entertainment for relief. More and more, the kind of entertainment they turn to is adult entertainment."


The pair were quick to admit that "the $US13 billion industry is in no fear of collapse", but asked: "Why take chances?"

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,27574,24887260-23109,00.html

:saywhat:

[SurfaceUnits]

Paulson gave your greatgrandkid's tax dollars to the financial institutions and told the world today it's none of your damn business what they do with it

Today, the Associated Press is reporting that banks are refusing to reveal how they’re spending the money. The AP contacted 21 banks that received at least $1 billion in government money and asked four questions: How much has been spent? What was it spent on? How much is being held in savings? and What’s the plan for the rest?

None of the banks provided specific answers. A few examples:

* JPMorgan Chase ($25 billion) “We have not disclosed that to the public. We’re declining to.”
* SunTrust Banks Inc. ($3.5 billion) “We’re not providing dollar-in, dollar-out tracking.”
* Regions Financial Corp ($3.5 billion) “We manage our capital in its aggregate.”
* Bank of New York Mellon ($3 billion) “We’re choosing not to disclose that.”
* Comerica Inc. ($2.25 billion) “We’re not sharing any other details. We’re just not at this time.”
* Morgan Stanley “We are going to decline to comment on your story.”

And now that the bastards and bitches have the cash, they want you to pay to fix the mortgage mess

Banks want the old bailout back (01.09.2009) (FORTUNE Magazine)
Two months after Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson pulled the plug on his plan to buy troubled mortgage assets, the financial industry is pushing the government to reconsider.
http://money.cnn.com/2009/01/09/news/classic.tarp.fortune/index.htm

[pchall]

People have to remember that Cerebus is a private equity firm and their sole goal is to make money fast and then sell, so in the case of the retail firm Cerebus made their return and they could care less about the future fate of the retail establishment. The fact that Cerebus is getting a government bailout is a bit sickening to me.

The sales tax holiday, like the stimulus checks last spring, is based on the premise that consumers will go crazy shopping. If unemployment during 2009 is in the 8-10 percent range, which is the range I saw in the latest Blue Chip Economic Indicators publications, and families are worried about whether or not mom or dad will keep their job, a sales tax holiday isn't going to make them rush out to the stores. The fundamentals in the economy need attention before these gimmicks will have any substantive effect.

[pchall]

The sales tax holiday, like the stimulus checks last spring, is based on the premise that consumers will go crazy shopping.

I bet most of those checks went to pay off existing bills or into savings. I dropped mine into my kid's college fund pronto.

[Sean Malone]

yeah yeah yeah, Paulson is the anti-christ and the messiah all wrapped up into one pencil neck geek. I get it.

[SurfaceUnits]

yeah yeah yeah, Paulson is the anti-christ and the messiah all wrapped up into one pencil neck geek. I get it.

way to wimp out with a ******** reply

[Methanolandbrats]

My 85 year-old parents pension income has been reduced by 60%...that's right, 60%. Thank the asswipes in our state investment board who also chased insane yield and ignored risk. This mess has ruined the lives of many, many average hard working people. It makes me puke when I see the bastards who caused it are still employed and drawing huge paychecks when they really deserve to be shot.

[Sean Malone]

People have to remember that Cerebus is a private equity firm and their sole goal is to make money fast and then sell, so in the case of the retail firm Cerebus made their return and they could care less about the future fate of the retail establishment. The fact that Cerebus is getting a government bailout is a bit sickening to me.

The sales tax holiday, like the stimulus checks last spring, is based on the premise that consumers will go crazy shopping. If unemployment during 2009 is in the 8-10 percent range, which is the range I saw in the latest Blue Chip Economic Indicators publications, and families are worried about whether or not mom or dad will keep their job, a sales tax holiday isn't going to make them rush out to the stores. The fundamentals in the economy need attention before these gimmicks will have any substantive effect.

It's Cerberus.:gomer:

[Sean Malone]

way to wimp out with a ******** reply

Lick it. :)

[oddlycalm]

My 85 year-old parents pension income has been reduced by 60%...that's right, 60%. Thank the asswipes in our state investment board who also chased insane yield and ignored risk. This mess has ruined the lives of many, many average hard working people. It makes me puke when I see the bastards who caused it are still employed and drawing huge paychecks when they really deserve to be shot.

Yeah, I'm not holding my breath waiting for any level of accountability.

While watching an hour interview with Director Of National Intelligence Mike McConnell the other evening I found it ironic that the biggest security threat turned out to be people in our own financial sector and their enablers at the Fed and in congress.

If an outside entity had brought about this kind of financial destruction, that will crush the lives of so many in the US as well as around the world, we would be hunting them down with single minded fervor. Instead, because they have power and money they are still employed and making millions.

I also find it ironic that one of the obvious lessons is that organizations that are too big to fail pose a very real danger yet we are allowing banks to consolidate into even bigger organizations. :gomer:

oc

[SurfaceUnits]

Lick it. :)

I'd put a hollow point from a Keltec 9mil in it. That would pretty much put an end to it and whatever it was attached to

[Sean Malone]

I'd put a hollow point from a Keltec 9mil in it. That would pretty much put an end to it and whatever it was attached to

Typical psychotic response. Quite expected. :shakehead

Your SSRI is messin' you up dood.

[SurfaceUnits]

if you didn't feel so out of control, your brain wouldn't imagine patterns that don't exist

[eiregosod]

I predict that a top wall st banker will be selling cupcakes on the streets of NY by this time next year.

[Insomniac]

I predict that a top wall st banker will be selling cupcakes on the streets of NY by this time next year.

:rofl:

A top Wall St banker has already put away tons of money. They'll also get their share of the bailout bonus.

[SurfaceUnits]

One of the world's richest men stepped in front of a train in Germany a couple of weeks ago and the owner of one of this country's largest real estate liquidators offed himself in Chicago last week.

[nrc]

Not all of them are giving up so easily. One gomer financial adviser tried to fake his own death by bailing out of his plane. Wonder what he figured they would think when they found his plane with no remains inside. :/

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/13/us/13plane.html

[SurfaceUnits]

Not all of them are giving up so easily. One gomer financial adviser tried to fake his own death by bailing out of his plane. Wonder what he figured they'd would think when they found his plane with no remains inside. :/

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/13/us/13plane.html

His wife is hawt, she filed for divorce

[eiregosod]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3j4s6PpNL-s

:D

[chop456]

I predict that a top wall st banker will be selling cupcakes on the streets of NY by this time next year.

Impossible. They'd never make it in the highly-regulated cupcake market.

[JLMannin]

Impossible. They'd never make it in the highly-regulated cupcake market.

Wow. You have truly learned nothing from all of this.

They will just sell securitized assets based on derivatives that track the NYC cupcake market. Then they will hedge their positions by taking significant positions the flour, sugar, and cooking oil futures markets, key components of cupcakes. Then they will hedge the hedges by short-selling cupcake options, finally creating assets based on the value of these short selling contracts.

:D