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cameraman
02-13-09, 05:22 PM
What's everyone going to do with their $13 a week stimulus windfall?
Passports: $90 million is going to the State Department to deal with domestic facilities that deal with passports and training.
Can anyone explain how this is supposed to stimulate the econony:
:irked:
What is an economic stimulus package?
It is a jobs package.
How are passports applications processed?
By people doing their job.
The vast majority of that $90 million is going to be spent on salaries, spent on people who will spend the money to live. That is how you stimulate the consumer portion of the economy.
SurfaceUnits
02-13-09, 05:46 PM
'NOT ONE MEMBER HAS READ THIS BILL'
CvnwOjDjnH4
JLMannin
02-13-09, 06:13 PM
'NOT ONE MEMBER HAS READ THIS BILL'
CvnwOjDjnH4
Yes. And no one read the one in 2000 that included the "banking modernization act" or what ever it was called that turned the clock back on banking regulations 80 years or so and caused this whole mess either.
800 page bills, stuffed through both houses of congress in mere days are bad policy, no matter which party is watching the chicken coop.
What is an economic stimulus package?
It is a jobs package.
How are passports applications processed?
By people doing their job.
The vast majority of that $90 million is going to be spent on salaries, spent on people who will spend the money to live. That is how you stimulate the consumer portion of the economy.
So you're saying we have this massive shortage of people to process passport applications? I hadn't heard about that. Color me sceptical. ;)
I suspect the vast majority of that $90 million will not go to hiring new people. But we'll likely never hear how it is actually spent anyway. :irked:
The vast majority of that $90 million is going to be spent on salaries, spent on people who will spend the money to live. That is how you stimulate the consumer portion of the economy.
I don't believe that creating government jobs is a good way to stimulate the economy. So you create the job with a stimulus package today. How does the salary get paid tomorrow?
Legitimate infrastructure projects that will have long term benefit I can understand. Lord knows our roads are falling apart. But a lot of what I hear about is state and local governments looking to use this to finally get to some items on their pork wish list.
oddlycalm
02-13-09, 09:31 PM
Marines To Wage War In Indianapolis
Central Indiana To Host Urban Battle Training
Any chance of them including a bit of live ammo practice over at the IMS test range....?
oc
Insomniac
02-14-09, 12:31 AM
What's everyone going to do with their $13 a week stimulus windfall?
I pretty much gave my last rebate back to the gov't for a passport. They won't be so fortunate this time.
Insomniac
02-14-09, 12:33 AM
I don't believe that creating government jobs is a good way to stimulate the economy. So you create the job with a stimulus package today. How does the salary get paid tomorrow?
Legitimate infrastructure projects that will have long term benefit I can understand. Lord knows our roads are falling apart. But a lot of what I hear about is state and local governments looking to use this to finally get to some items on their pork wish list.
I just hope they only hire contractors. Do not burden us with more lifelong employees.
You know, I am not even getting the roads falling apart bit. I see them widening roads that do not suffer from too much traffic, building bridges we don't need, putting in stoplights at intersections with minute amounts of cross traffic, etc. If anything, for too much money is spent on infrastructure.
This part was ok. The rest got too political.
JLMannin
02-14-09, 12:52 AM
Marines To Wage War In Indianapolis
Central Indiana To Host Urban Battle Training
A force of about 2,300 Marines will use Indianapolis for urban combat training for two weeks, beginning June 4, 6News' Jack Rinehart reported.
The Indiana State Fairgrounds is one of many landing zones in which Marines will jump out of helicopters to fight mock battles.
The city offered 26 sites, many of them parks, identified as realistic urban training zones.
The Marines will land for two weeks of situational training. The expeditionary force of 2,300 troops will fire weapons, conduct patrols and react to ambushes in an unfamiliar urban environment.
That was last summer, was it not?
SurfaceUnits
02-14-09, 12:59 AM
Yes. And no one read the one in 2000 that included the "banking modernization act" or what ever it was called that turned the clock back on banking regulations 80 years or so and caused this whole mess either.
"Greenspan's Body Count"
a macabre tally of people who killed themselves and some who also killed close family members allegedly due to economic pressures
http://greenspansbodycount.blogspot.com/2009/02/greenspans-body-count-wayne-mike.html
http://www.newsweek.com/id/179422/output/print
http://psychologyofmedicine.blogspot.com/2009/01/killer-economy-newsweekcom.html
Monorail, dude. Monorail. :rolleyes:
One of many highlights of the stimulus bill the Democrats just rammed through Congress is $8 billion for high-speed rail. What makes this appropriation special is that there was no money for high-speed rail in the original House legislation. The Senate bill had $2 billion. The legislation coming out of conference "compromised" on $8 billion.
How did this happen? Well, some of that $8 billion, as the Washington Post reported Friday, seems intended for "a controversial proposal for a magnetic-levitation rail line between Disneyland, in California, and Las Vegas, a project favored by Senate Majority Leader Harry M. Reid (D-Nev.). The 311-mph train could make the trip from Sin City to Tomorrowland in less than two hours, according to backers." Reid of course played a major role in putting together the final bill.
I hope this is not true. But if it is, I hope 8 billion is all it costs.
cameraman
02-14-09, 05:21 AM
It isn't. That is pure political spin, aka bull****. It is $8 billion to the Department of Transportation to support high speed and intercity rail projects anywhere in the US. The money will be awarded on a competitive basis, as in projects that are already planned/begun will get the money. It will get parceled up and buy more more of these:
http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii35/Cynops/frontrunner.jpg
By the way those trains are made in Boise so that $8 billion will really help the Idaho economy and we all know what a major Democrat Party stronghold Idaho is:rolleyes:
More funness:
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=88851
As the Obama administration pushes through Congress its $800 billion deficit-spending economic stimulus plan, the American public is largely unaware that the true deficit of the federal government already is measured in trillions of dollars, and in fact its $65.5 trillion in total obligations exceeds the gross domestic product of the world.
The total U.S. obligations, including Social Security and Medicare benefits to be paid in the future, effectively have placed the U.S. government in bankruptcy, even before new continuing social welfare obligation embedded in the massive spending plan are taken into account.
The real 2008 federal budget deficit was $5.1 trillion, not the $455 billion previously reported by the Congressional Budget Office, according to the "2008 Financial Report of the United States Government" as released by the U.S. Department of Treasury.
The difference between the $455 billion "official" budget deficit numbers and the $5.1 trillion budget deficit cited by "2008 Financial Report of the United States Government" is that the official budget deficit is calculated on a cash basis, where all tax receipts, including Social Security tax receipts, are used to pay government liabilities as they occur.
:(
-Kevin
SurfaceUnits
02-14-09, 01:50 PM
The Washington Post publishing political spin? No way
Insomniac
02-14-09, 02:04 PM
More funness:
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=88851
:(
-Kevin
If people want to look at it from that angle, what's another $800B? The real anchor is SS and Medicare. As soon as they solve those we'll dump $55T in debt and we'll have a surplus. :)
Here's a clip from House of Cards. It airs again tonight at 7 ET on CNBC.
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x86txn_cnbc-originals-house-of-cards_news
It isn't. That is pure political spin, aka bull****. It is $8 billion to the Department of Transportation to support high speed and intercity rail projects anywhere in the US. The money will be awarded on a competitive basis, as in projects that are already planned/begun will get the money.
If a project has already begun where is the net benefit from a stimulus perspective?
A lot of the projects in "planning" stages are probably like the ones here in central Ohio - wish list projects that have never gotten off the ground because nobody can really justify them from an economic standpoint. So what we're talking about paying for as "stimulus" is dozens of little AmTraks that will require billions of dollars of subsidies for years to come.
SurfaceUnits
02-14-09, 04:06 PM
The state of indiana sold its toll roads to some Aussies for 2.? billion dollars :laugh:
cameraman
02-14-09, 04:16 PM
A lot of the projects in "planning" stages are probably like the ones here in central Ohio - wish list projects that have never gotten off the ground because nobody can really justify them from an economic standpoint. So what we're talking about paying for as "stimulus" is dozens of little AmTraks that will require billions of dollars of subsidies for years to come.
That train line in the picture is only half finished, they will apply for the funds and if they get them the line will be extended another 60 miles. There is no shortage of existing, heavily used commuter lines that could use the capital infusion.
That train line in the picture is only half finished, they will apply for the funds and if they get them the line will be extended another 60 miles. There is no shortage of existing, heavily used commuter lines that could use the capital infusion.
Even heavily used commuter lines rarely pay more than half of their costs. This is a commitment to millions of new dollars in tax payer funding over the long term.
Even heavily used commuter lines rarely pay more than half of their costs. This is a commitment to millions of new dollars in tax payer funding over the long term.
Oh come on...you know that proposed rail system in Cbus will be a huge hit. :irked: :saywhat: :shakehead
-Kevin
Once gas is $10 a gallon it will be. lol
oddlycalm
02-15-09, 05:33 PM
We all know what would we be doing if a foreign government or terrorist organization brought about this level of economic devastation so, given that, why aren we treating the people responsible for this mess like they are errant school boys subject only to congressional tongue lashings? Where are the criminal indictments? Martha Stewart does time but these guys walk?
oc
They have buddies in all the right places. The only one who might do any jail time is Madoff. And of that I'm not even sure.
oddlycalm
02-16-09, 03:11 PM
Teddy Roosevelt decided ~100yrs ago that businesses that were so large that their mere existence threatened the security of the US shouldn't be allowed to exist and the antitrust laws were born. We now have a practical lesson in what happens when we ignore those laws; companies that can't be allowed to fail and management that can't be held accountable.
I'm guessing that any financial bailout would be a lot more interesting to the voters if it included breaking up these overgrown zombie banks and getting rid of the self serving pricks that run them. Not holding my breath on that...
oc
JLMannin
02-16-09, 05:59 PM
We all know what would we be doing if a foreign government or terrorist organization brought about this level of economic devastation so, given that, why aren we treating the people responsible for this mess like they are errant school boys subject only to congressional tongue lashings? Where are the criminal indictments? Martha Stewart does time but these guys walk?
oc
Are we sure that this is NOT economic terrorism? After all, these gambling type financial instruments are completely beyond the reach of regulators, or so I have read here.
Teddy Roosevelt decided ~100yrs ago that businesses that were so large that their mere existence threatened the security of the US shouldn't be allowed to exist and the antitrust laws were born. We now have a practical lesson in what happens when we ignore those laws; companies that can't be allowed to fail and management that can't be held accountable.
Exactly right. If only we had a Teddy Roosevelt to lead us now, instead of a succession of D's and R's beholden to the sociopaths who have sold this country out. We can not be defeated militarily, but we have already been sold.
Insomniac
02-17-09, 01:05 PM
Are we sure that this is NOT economic terrorism? After all, these gambling type financial instruments are completely beyond the reach of regulators, or so I have read here.
It's inflicting the same fear, but no one has the guts to go after anyone. It's been that way for years. Even when the NY AG office did go after them, it resulted in fines and some agreements, but nothing criminal. There has to be so many documentable cases of fraud and the low level (between applicants and lenders and lenders and underwriters) and more than enough negligence through Wall St.
I can see why maybe that's not a high priority right now, but it's not like they're doing anything else. Why hasn't a law been passed to have mandatory levels of verification on all loan applications?
I know something like this will end up happening again regardless of what they do now, but all these people shouldn't get off like this. No punishment plus all the money they made at the expense of the long term economy.
Stanford Financial Group in Houston being raided by Marshalls.
I doubt we will see much legal action. They would have to also go after their accomplices in congress.
Methanolandbrats
02-17-09, 02:16 PM
Dow 6500 is just a hop and a skip away........over 10% unemployment, housing values down another 10%, all the bailout money pissed away and the banks fail anyway.........time to stock up on ammo, canned beans and water :gomer:
cameraman
02-17-09, 03:03 PM
Stanford Financial Group in Houston being raided by Marshalls.
Bernie Madoff v2.0
Ya know if you invest your money through an Antiguan bank named after the fund manager well maybe you should lose your money.
Insomniac
02-17-09, 04:02 PM
Bernie Madoff v2.0
Ya know if you invest your money through an Antiguan bank named after the fund manager well maybe you should lose your money.
It's a shame this mess couldn't have been contained to the financial sector. They had this coming along with the people who were "investing" with reckless abandon.
SurfaceUnits
02-17-09, 04:31 PM
Dow 6500 is just a hop and a skip away........over 10% unemployment, housing values down another 10%, all the bailout money pissed away and the banks fail anyway.........time to stock up on ammo, canned beans and water :gomer:Salma Hayek apparently has enough to feed us all. :D
SurfaceUnits
02-17-09, 04:32 PM
Donald Gump bails...
Trump casino group in bankruptcy
Trump Entertainment seeks Chapter 11 court protection. Developer and daughter quit board on Friday.
Trump Entertainment Resorts, the casino operating group, filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection, according to court documents filed Tuesday in Camden, N.J.
Real estate mogul Donald Trump said Friday he was quitting his position as chairman of Trump Entertainment Resorts on Friday, according to the Trump Organization. Trump's daughter, Ivanka, also said she was quitting the board on Friday.
Also Tuesday, nine companies associated with Trump Entertainment filed for bankruptcy protection, including Trump Taj Mahal Associates, Trump Marina Associates, and Trump Plaza Associates.
Donald Gump bails...
Trump casino group in bankruptcy
Trump Entertainment seeks Chapter 11 court protection. Developer and daughter quit board on Friday.
Trump Entertainment Resorts, the casino operating group, filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection, according to court documents filed Tuesday in Camden, N.J.
Real estate mogul Donald Trump said Friday he was quitting his position as chairman of Trump Entertainment Resorts on Friday, according to the Trump Organization. Trump's daughter, Ivanka, also said she was quitting the board on Friday.
Also Tuesday, nine companies associated with Trump Entertainment filed for bankruptcy protection, including Trump Taj Mahal Associates, Trump Marina Associates, and Trump Plaza Associates.
They've been on life support for some time. Expect some fallout in Vega$ soon as well. Wynn dumped a bunch of $$$ over the past few years, which will come home to roost.
-Kevin
cameraman
02-17-09, 04:56 PM
Vegas is dead empty right now. The only people around are the one's attending meetings, conventions etc. The tourist segment is awol.
SurfaceUnits
02-17-09, 05:00 PM
The NON-mortgage fix:
The government is encouraging people to put their modest wages into money pits, by helping them to remain in their homes through new mortgage modification programs. They are being herded into an economic trap that will require them to spend money on something which may never have any value to them just so that they can keep their current roofs over their heads.
http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,1879858,00.html
SurfaceUnits
02-17-09, 05:16 PM
They've been on life support for some time. Expect some fallout in Vega$ soon as well. Wynn dumped a bunch of $$$ over the past few years, which will come home to roost.
-Kevin
"It's a mess," says Vegas developer Laurence Hallier. "Right now, things are just frozen. Everybody's scared."
Hallier, 40, knows from experience. His $600 million Panorama Towers complex was a tremendous success at its inception three years ago. The first of his four planned residential skyscrapers sold out in six months; the second, which opened in 2007, sold out in 12 weeks. As the third tower neared completion last fall, Hallier had sold 92% of its units. Then the recession hit, and only half the units ended up closing. Hallier says it will take years to break even, and plans for the fourth tower have been delayed indefinitely.
There are others who've made--and lost--far worse gambles on Vegas property. In 2007, Israeli billionaire Yitzhak Tshuva and partner Nochi Dankner paid $1.25 billion to buy a 34.5-acre site on the Strip, with plans to build an $8 billion mega-casino modeled after New York's Plaza Hotel. By November, the value of the lot had plummeted to $650 million--half what they paid for it. Groundbreaking on the casino has been pushed back to 2010, and today, the land may be worth less than the $625 million Tshuva and Dankner borrowed to buy it.
oddlycalm
02-17-09, 05:27 PM
On Frontline starting tonight Inside the meltdown (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/meltdown/)
Behind the scenes blow by blow from May 2008 - October 2008 (Bear Stearns thru TARP passage) Frontline generally does a superior job.
oc
cameraman
02-17-09, 05:31 PM
The NON-mortgage fix:
The government is encouraging people to put their modest wages into money pits, by helping them to remain in their homes through new mortgage modification programs. They are being herded into an economic trap that will require them to spend money on something which may never have any value to them just so that they can keep their current roofs over their heads.
So a house will never have any value again? I hate to burst your bubble but my house is still worth more than what we paid for it over a decade ago. Real estate is back to where it was six years ago, that isn't valueless, it just isn't grotesquely over valued. Prior to the last decade nobody bought a house thinking that they would be able to sell it again in 3 years at a 50% profit. You are supposed to buy a house and live in it, that is the model that ran the US economy for 200 years. It may take a decade for inflation to raise home prices to the levels people were paying two years ago, in the meantime people need to pay their damn mortgages (hence the gov't program to rewrite the terms to normal 30 conventional loans) and live in their houses.
The inflated home values were wrong and no gov't program should attempt to re-inflate that bubble.
So a house will never have any value again? I hate to burst your bubble but my house is still worth more than what we paid for it over a decade ago. Real estate is back to where it was six years ago, that isn't valueless, it just isn't grotesquely over valued. Prior to the last decade nobody bought a house thinking that they would be able to sell it again in 3 years at a 50% profit. You are supposed to buy a house and live in it, that is the model that ran the US economy for 200 years. It may take a decade for inflation to raise home prices to the levels people were paying two years ago, in the meantime people need to pay their damn mortgages (hence the gov't program to rewrite the terms to normal 30 conventional loans) and live in their houses.
The inflated home values were wrong and no gov't program should attempt to re-inflate that bubble.
mortgage modification has one purpose and one purpose only, protecting lenders. if people start walking away and making a clean break, the lenders are f'ed. the same with TARP, everyone was forced to accept funds, that way no one would be required to open their books for inspection. same with bankruptcy reform act.
cameraman
02-17-09, 06:27 PM
If you walk away you are equally f'ed. You're not going to get a sub-prime loan anymore, you walk away and you will be a renter for the next decade and you had best get used to that 13% interest rate on your car loan.
Insomniac
02-17-09, 06:47 PM
If you walk away you are equally f'ed. You're not going to get a sub-prime loan anymore, you walk away and you will be a renter for the next decade and you had best get used to that 13% interest rate on your car loan.
Not to mention any equity you might have in the home is gone too.
Insomniac
02-17-09, 06:51 PM
The NON-mortgage fix:
The government is encouraging people to put their modest wages into money pits, by helping them to remain in their homes through new mortgage modification programs. They are being herded into an economic trap that will require them to spend money on something which may never have any value to them just so that they can keep their current roofs over their heads.
http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,1879858,00.html
As long as the balance does not change, I'm OK with this. Get people to pay their mortgages and give them a chance to stay in their houses. Those who still can't afford it never should've had a loan in the first place. If they can afford it on a 5.5% 30-year fixed, that's good for all of us.
so to make sure people aren't renters for the decade we should have outright govt manipulation of the housing market with down payment assistance, over-subsidized lending (fannie, FHA), and with tax-code that aids lenders by inflating the market?
if the debt is more than the house is worth, what does that person actually own? and why should the rest of the populace care if they can't get another home loan. why should people and business who didn't speculate and over-consume be responsible for ensuring that those who did don't suffer from the risks associated with those decisions? mortgage modifications, 7.5K & 15K new home purchase subsidies, no capital gains on some homes, all prop inflated home prices which only serves to shield lenders and creditors from realizing losses on grossly overvalued property.
Stanford Financial Group in Houston being raided by Marshalls.
I read that last night. Apparently they've got a ponzi scheme going on there too.
Dow 6500 is just a hop and a skip away........over 10% unemployment, housing values down another 10%, all the bailout money pissed away and the banks fail anyway.........time to stock up on ammo, canned beans and water :gomer:
I've been doing the canned goods since last year. Still have to work on the water and I don't own a gun or plan to :(
How long before we have a the thread congratulating us on owning an auto manufacturer?
and I don't own a gun or plan to :(
that's a shame.
the zombies are coming for you first.
cameraman
02-17-09, 08:28 PM
I don't own a gun or plan to :(
The guy down the street from me might sell one of his 100+ guns:shakehead
I mean really, who needs six absolutely identical Colt AR-15s:saywhat:
SurfaceUnits
02-17-09, 08:46 PM
So a house will never have any value again? I hate to burst your bubble but my house is still worth more than what we paid for it over a decade ago. Real estate is back to where it was six years ago, that isn't valueless, it just isn't grotesquely over valued. Prior to the last decade nobody bought a house thinking that they would be able to sell it again in 3 years at a 50% profit. You are supposed to buy a house and live in it, that is the model that ran the US economy for 200 years. It may take a decade for inflation to raise home prices to the levels people were paying two years ago, in the meantime people need to pay their damn mortgages (hence the gov't program to rewrite the terms to normal 30 conventional loans) and live in their houses.
The inflated home values were wrong and no gov't program should attempt to re-inflate that bubble.
Whoopdee effing do, you didn't sign a note for twice the present value of the property
If you read the article, these people are being setup to pay the interest on the loans, with the principal placed at the end, no adjustment
Whoopdee effing do, you didn't sign a note for twice the present value of the property
I'm gonna guess that you did.
I mean really, who needs six absolutely identical Colt AR-15s:saywhat:
someone well aware of what will be required of him when the zombies come, that's who.
SurfaceUnits
02-17-09, 08:53 PM
I'm gonna guess that you did.
dMriTkE3igY
WRONG!
I sold my house and downsized when I went back to school
I'm gonna guess that you did.
You don't have to be upside down on a mortgage to realize that this:
If you read the article, these people are being setup to pay the interest on the loans, with the principal placed at the end
is nothing but federally endorsed idiocy.
the current default rate on govt/GSE standardized mass modification programs is 50-60% w/in 6 months of execution, as opposed to 20-30% on mods actively underwritten.
Again, this does nothing but prop up lenders/creditors by trying to lure people into throwing more money after bad instead of just walking away. When you make risky loans that's what you run the risk of happening, bankruptcy. The notion that this is to protect the average schmuck is a smokescreen and outright lie. The sooner the country lets the house of cards burn the sooner those people and businesses who didn't expose themselves to too much risk can rebuild.
What do you think should be done?
cameraman
02-17-09, 09:12 PM
If you read the article, these people are being setup to pay the interest on the loans, with the principal placed at the end, no adjustment
Actually if your read the opinion piece, part of the principal is placed at the end but by the end of the term the entire principal is paid off. And do you really believe that over the next 25 years house prices will never increase by so much as a dime as that guy is arguing?
SurfaceUnits
02-17-09, 09:37 PM
It doesn't matter what happens over the next 25 years because the people aren't going to be in those houses for that stretch of time. Do you think the banks are thinking about 2034?
SurfaceUnits
02-17-09, 09:46 PM
What do you think should be done?
I think the Federal Reserve should be nationalized since it is largely responsible for the current situation.
The chairman supported the legislation that allowed the derivatives mess; he kept the interest rates low that allowed the housing bubble. He did nothing when the mortgage trouble began to appear. What good was he anyway
Tell us again why people should pay a monthly mortgage rate of 150% of the value of the property?
What do you think should be done?
nothing.
bad mortgages should fail. banks who want fed funds should be required to open their books. there should be no offer of any kind of future TARP allowing banks to avoid mark to market with distressed securities. such governmental actions only allow banks to maintain the overvalued state of their assets, which in turn fleeces the public of THEIR tax revenues.
those who can't afford mortgages need to file. too bad for the lenders/creditors caught with their pants down, the sooner those firms burn, the sooner we can rebuild.
constant govt intervention did nothing for japan. 20 years later their RE is down 70% from late 80's value and stock down 80%. enacting the same initiatives step by step will not result in the opposite result.
Because they agreed to? If they can afford it and they agreed that it was worth what they paid, why shouldn't they pay? And what about the ones who took out the "equity"?
I think the Federal Reserve should be nationalized since it is largely responsible for the current situation.
The chairman supported the legislation that allowed the derivatives mess; he kept the interest rates low that allowed the housing bubble. He did nothing when the mortgage trouble began to appear. What good was he anyway
Tell us again why people should pay a monthly mortgage rate of 150% of the value of the property?
nothing.
bad mortgages should fail. banks who want fed funds should be required to open their books. there should be no offer of any kind of future TARP allowing banks to avoid mark to market with distressed securities. such governmental actions only allow banks to maintain the overvalued state of their assets, which in turn fleeces the public of THEIR tax revenues.
those who can't afford mortgages need to file. too bad for the lenders/creditors caught with their pants down, the sooner those firms burn, the sooner we can rebuild.
constant govt intervention did nothing for japan. 20 years later their RE is down 70% from late 80's value and stock down 80%. enacting the same initiatives step by step will not result in the opposite result.I agree, if people can't pay they should walk away if there is no recourse or file bankruptcy. And the housing values should go back to normal. But there are still going to be people who get hurt by the bubble not because they bought an overpriced home, but because they fell into the equity ATM trap. This whole thing is very messy and is going to leave many very bitter.
someone well aware of what will be required of him when the zombies come, that's who.
Dood needs to step away from the L4D. :)
I believe an effort will be made to keep the voters in their homes. They have more votes to make in the future.
And the rest of us will be paying for it. :irked:
Insomniac
02-18-09, 12:52 AM
You are giving people who want to stay in their home the option/possibility to stay. They aren't required. There's no incentive. If they feel it's in their best interest to walk, they can walk. The government isn't eating any principle.
The only downside I see is that people would opt in, and then walk later. Which would mean the program delayed the inevitable instead of stabilizing housing (and hopefully freeing up credit markets).
The first time home buyer credit isn't going to people who are going to do bad loans. I'm not really a fan though because ultimately, it will just increase the selling prices while reducing tax revenue when the gov't needs it.
Insomniac
02-18-09, 01:01 AM
I think the Federal Reserve should be nationalized since it is largely responsible for the current situation.
The chairman supported the legislation that allowed the derivatives mess; he kept the interest rates low that allowed the housing bubble. He did nothing when the mortgage trouble began to appear. What good was he anyway
Tell us again why people should pay a monthly mortgage rate of 150% of the value of the property?
Interest rates could've been low without a real estate bubble if lending rules weren't thrown in the dumpster. The problem wasn't the rates, it was the encouragement to come up with as many ways possible to loan the money.
Who is forcing people to pay? They have options and should seek them out and do what is best for them.
Interest rates could've been low without a real estate bubble if lending rules weren't thrown in the dumpster. The problem wasn't the rates, it was the encouragement to come up with as many ways possible to loan the money.
Who is forcing people to pay? They have options and should seek them out and do what is best for them.
the problem isn't forcing people to pay, the problem is using taxpayer money to cover the asses of lenders/creditors who are screwed in the end anyway.
and regardless of lending rules for mortgages, with massive credit inflation comes massive speculation, such as commercial real estate which is the next huge bubble that's going to screw us, if it wasn't bundling mortgages it would've been something else. the chairman of indian's reserve bank took action that was the complete opposite of the US, which was no action. interest rates up every time a market looked fishy, forcing banks to increase cash reserves as they became more involved in real estate, banning domestic banks from land speculation for commercial real estate development, only foreign hedge funds & equity firms funded India's development boom, and they're the ones hosed as a result, but little of the above involving personal home mortgages. despite Satyam's massive fraud, none of the banks have defaulted.
someone well aware of what will be required of him when the zombies come, that's who.
http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/6927/preparednesssm3.jpg
Insomniac
02-18-09, 10:36 AM
the problem isn't forcing people to pay, the problem is using taxpayer money to cover the asses of lenders/creditors who are screwed in the end anyway.
and regardless of lending rules for mortgages, with massive credit inflation comes massive speculation, such as commercial real estate which is the next huge bubble that's going to screw us, if it wasn't bundling mortgages it would've been something else. the chairman of indian's reserve bank took action that was the complete opposite of the US, which was no action. interest rates up every time a market looked fishy, forcing banks to increase cash reserves as they became more involved in real estate, banning domestic banks from land speculation for commercial real estate development, only foreign hedge funds & equity firms funded India's development boom, and they're the ones hosed as a result, but little of the above involving personal home mortgages. despite Satyam's massive fraud, none of the banks have defaulted.
I guess it depends on who ends up doing the refi. If the government is becoming the new lender, then this is a very bad idea. Then I see how we're all screwed. I don't want to be loaning people money to buy a house I'd never buy. If it's a forced agreement with the current lender and home owner, then that seems like a shared burden. That doesn't seem like an artificial floor.
If a 20% down payment was required and they used the 28/36 rules, even with interest rates low, I don't think prices would've shot up like that. They basically turned mortgages into credit cards. There are tons of people who don't care much about ringing up debt on cards in the double digit APRs. I doubt the same people in a mess now would care about a 10%+ mortgage if the broker could talk them into thinking they could afford it.
I watched that CNBC special and they said there were mortgages that would let you pay less than the interest accrued. They'd then take the unpaid accrued interest and add it to the principle. Negative amortization. :saywhat:
Mortgage Relief Plan (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29256639/)
edit:
Pursue reforms
Pursue reforms to help families avoid foreclosure. The administration will continue to support changing bankruptcy rules so judges can reduce mortgages on primary homes to their fair market value, as long as the borrower sticks to a court-ordered repayment plan. As part of the $787 billion stimulus package that Obama signed into law on Tuesday, the administration will award $2 billion in competitive grants to communities experimenting with innovative ways to prevent foreclosures.
Here's another interesting one
Create incentives
Create incentives for lenders to modify subprime loans at risk of default or foreclosure. For lenders that agree to reduce rates to levels borrowers can afford, the government will make up part of the difference between the old monthly payment and the new payment. Participating lenders also will be required to cut payments to no more than 31 percent of a borrower’s income. Up to 4 million homeowners could benefit.Sounds like a great deal. Too bad it's not for everyone. :\
Mortgage Relief Plan (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29256639/)
edit:
How do they determine fair market value? If someone renegotiates a mortgage to fair market value in a market where values were inflated and the market takes off at some point in the future they going to reap the benefits that the taxpayers paid for?
Any amount that is forgiven at tax payer expense should come off the top of any future transactions for that property.
oddlycalm
02-18-09, 05:27 PM
someone well aware of what will be required of him when the zombies come, that's who.
Yup, the new faster moving zombies require a lot more firepower. The days when you could take zombies on with a 12ga pump are gone...:gomer:
ox
cameraman
02-18-09, 05:28 PM
Here's another interesting one
Sounds like a great deal. Too bad it's not for everyone. :\
Everyone(?) else gets the refinance to fixed market rate (~5%) without requiring mortgage insurance when their equity is below 20%. It doesn't change the principal but it makes the mortgage as inexpensive as possible. The homeowner might still be upside-down today but if they can stay in the house for a while they could well end up in the black or at least close to break even.
Methanolandbrats
02-18-09, 06:16 PM
I want my stimulus check so I can stimulate the liquor store. I just discovered this wonderful but expensive brew http://blog.flaminio.net/blogs/media/blogs/beer//tha.jpg
extramundane
02-18-09, 07:41 PM
I want my stimulus check so I can stimulate the liquor store. I just discovered this wonderful but expensive brew http://blog.flaminio.net/blogs/media/blogs/beer//tha.jpg
Check out Hopslam, the Imperial version of Two-Hearted. That's a stimulus program I can get behind. :thumbup:
Methanolandbrats
02-18-09, 10:10 PM
Check out Hopslam, the Imperial version of Two-Hearted. That's a stimulus program I can get behind. :thumbup:
Will do, thanks!
JLMannin
02-18-09, 10:39 PM
Tell us again why people should pay a monthly mortgage rate of 150% of the value of the property?
Simple. They entered into a legal contract promising to do so.
JLMannin
02-18-09, 10:42 PM
It doesn't matter what happens over the next 25 years because the people aren't going to be in those houses for that stretch of time. Do you think the banks are thinking about 2034?
I'm sorry, but if you buy a house knowing you will need/plan to sell it in two or three years, you are stupid. That would be like taking a business trip and buying a car and selling it three days later instead of renting one.
SurfaceUnits
02-18-09, 10:56 PM
Simple. They entered into a legal contract promising to do so.
it's not legal if the contract isn't
if they were one of the millions of fraudulent mortgages, they have no need to.
Methanolandbrats
02-18-09, 10:59 PM
Simple. They entered into a legal contract promising to do so.
The problem I have with that is that there are many, many stupid consumers. Loan officers are supposed to keep people from making bad decisions by denying loans. Without regulation and awash in greed, the lenders did'nt do their jobs. So who really is more to blame, stupid borrowers or greedy lenders?
cameraman
02-18-09, 11:44 PM
it's not legal if the contract isn't
if they were one of the millions of fraudulent mortgages, they have no need to.
Your tin foil hat needs adjusting.
Methanolandbrats
02-18-09, 11:48 PM
Both
Correct, so how does it get fixed? Nobody can figure it out and nobody knows what will happen with the various "solutions". There has never been a problem like this.
cameraman
02-18-09, 11:53 PM
So who really is more to blame, stupid borrowers or greedy lenders? Ultimately the stupid borrowers. Nobody put a gun to their heads and made them sign. I was offered truly shocking credit lines, I turned them down because they were financial suicide. We also walked away from buying a different house a year or so ago because the prices were vastly higher than we felt the homes were worth. Turns out we were far more correct than we had ever dreamed possible:shakehead
I'm sure there have been problems like this before. Just not with so many people at the same time.
cameraman
02-18-09, 11:58 PM
I'm sure there have been problems like this before. Just not with so many people at the same time.
Not really. There has never been a mortgage broker industry selling off bundles of sketchy loans before. The whole loan repackaging fiasco was unheard of before 1980. Banks actually held on to the mortgages through the 50's & 60's.
Not really. There has never been a mortgage broker industry selling off bundles of sketchy loans before. The whole loan repackaging fiasco was unheard of before 1980. Banks actually held on to the mortgages through the 50's & 60's.
I'm sorry I wasn't clear. I didn't mean the financial market aspect of this crisis. People have sometimes had to sell for less than what they purchased or had to be foreclosed on.
Ultimately the stupid borrowers. Nobody put a gun to their heads and made them sign. I was offered truly shocking credit lines, I turned them down because they were financial suicide. We also walked away from buying a different house a year or so ago because the prices were vastly higher than we felt the homes were worth. Turns out we were far more correct than we had ever dreamed possible:shakehead
when a mom feeds a 2 year old KFC who do you blame? who is the party in this relationship w/ the most interest in exercising proper responsibility?
no excuse for the millions of worthless borrowers. but borrowers aren't the ones w/ the most at risk on th eline.
chop456
02-19-09, 03:02 AM
Will do, thanks!
FYI - the place you'll find it the cheapest is Woodman's and it's $50/case. :\
[/hijack]
Methanolandbrats
02-19-09, 08:34 AM
FYI - the place you'll find it the cheapest is Woodman's and it's $50/case. :\
[/hijack] Thanks, won't do. :)
SurfaceUnits
02-19-09, 08:54 AM
Your tin foil hat needs adjusting.
your free market bumper sticker is looking a might bit tattered, and the bumper's hanging by a clothes hanger
Rick Santelli of CNBC goes OFF on the $7B+ "stimulus" package:
http://www.cnbc.com/id/15840232?video=1039849853
Chicago Tea Party. :laugh:
-Kevin
Rick Santelli of CNBS goes OFF on the $7B+ "stimulus" package:
http://www.cnbc.com/id/15840232?video=1039849853
Chicago Tea Party. :laugh:
-Kevin
They are ticked! :laugh:
TrueBrit
02-19-09, 02:52 PM
Rick Santelli of CNBC goes OFF on the $7B+ "stimulus" package:
http://www.cnbc.com/id/15840232?video=1039849853
Chicago Tea Party. :laugh:
-Kevin
Countdown to him receiving an IRS audit for the last decade in 5...4...3...
SurfaceUnits
02-19-09, 04:44 PM
The Feds have trouble in its own house to tend with.
In addition to a couple of Obama nominees and US congressmen :
Federal workers owe billions in unpaid taxes - for one year
From the U.S. Postal Service to the Executive Office of the President, thousands of federal workers have not paid their 2007 federal income taxes.
The Internal Revenue Service is trying to collect billions of dollars in unpaid taxes from nearly half a million federal employees. According to IRS records, 171,549 current federal workers did not voluntarily pay their federal income taxes in 2007. The same is true for 37,752 active duty military and nearly 200,000 retired civilian and military personnel.
Documents obtained by WTOP through the Freedom of Information Act show 449,531 federal employees and retirees did not pay their taxes for a total of $3,586,784,725 in taxes owed last year.
JLMannin
02-19-09, 05:08 PM
The problem I have with that is that there are many, many stupid consumers. Loan officers are supposed to keep people from making bad decisions by denying loans. Without regulation and awash in greed, the lenders did'nt do their jobs. So who really is more to blame, stupid borrowers or greedy lenders?
Sorry, but the accountability for making a bad decision lies with the decision maker. Lending guidelines are a joke - I have always qualified for precisely double what I can actually afford. As a matter of fact, one house ago, my loan was for 60% of what I could qualify for - I had to pause and critically examine if I could actually carry the loan, as that exceeded my "50% rule" by 20% (ie, 10% more than 50% is 20% over what I felt I could reasonably afford). In the end, my analysis was that the lending guidelines had tightened somewhat, as I had no problem carrying the mortgage.
If you just qualify for a mortgage, you are already waaaaaaay over your head. I'm sorry, but that is not the fault of the lender, but the borrower if the borrower initiates a contract they have 0% probability of upholding.
Insomniac
02-19-09, 07:01 PM
Ultimately the stupid borrowers. Nobody put a gun to their heads and made them sign. I was offered truly shocking credit lines, I turned them down because they were financial suicide. We also walked away from buying a different house a year or so ago because the prices were vastly higher than we felt the homes were worth. Turns out we were far more correct than we had ever dreamed possible:shakehead
You had lenders who would do anything to get people to sign. A lender and underwriter also signed off on the loan. There are a whole lot of people with no financial savvy. If the lenders want to take chances on them knowing they may get burned (hence the exotic loans or high rates), that's their choice. But now they're getting bailed out instead of paying for their risk.
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