View Full Version : Honda gone
Honda is set to announce it will withdraw from Formula One competition, likely as early as Friday. (http://www.tsn.ca/auto_racing/story/?id=258441&lid=sublink01&lpos=headlines_main)
Now you know why there's so much talk about rule changes. If the auto manufacturers leave, no one can afford to be competitive.
Interesting...
I wonder if any other manufacturers will follow.
Couldl this have any effect on their U.S. racing programs?
I don't think Toyota will stay too long. Especially if Honda bails.
Audi_A4
12-04-08, 07:47 PM
the days of spending ungodly sums to race midpack in formula one are gone
Methanolandbrats
12-04-08, 07:54 PM
The Global Racing Bubble is now beginning to burst. It's gonna be a lean few years.
Don Quixote
12-04-08, 07:57 PM
This just confirms what I have been saying all along, that the IRL is a much more attractive place to be for roi for manufacturers. :tony:
opinionated ow
12-04-08, 08:01 PM
Thanks Bernie and Max for ****ing up the greatest sport in the world! All these bloody cost increases in things like KERS, common ECUS, the 2.4L V8s, the complete change in aerodynamic regulations have screwed this sport potentially forever!
Dang it. For a second I thought this was about the IRL. :gomer:
Andrew Longman
12-04-08, 10:51 PM
I don't think Toyota will stay too long. Especially if Honda bails.
Trevor says he's reading talk that Toyota is going to make a run at LeMans and bail as well from F1. That rumor is a few weeks old.
With spec engines and races gone or threatened in the US, Canada, Germany and France, even GB it is no wonder.
But Bernie and Max got their coin so I guess its all good.
Methanolandbrats
12-04-08, 11:02 PM
Trevor says he's reading talk that Toyota is going to make a run at LeMans and bail as well from F1. That rumor is a few weeks old.
With spec engines and races gone or threatened in the US, Canada, Germany and France, even GB it is no wonder.
But Bernie and Max got their coin so I guess its all good. It's all Slavica's fault, she could have sat on that evil little bastard and smothered him. F1 would have been saved and she would have gotten all the money.
Rogue Leader
12-05-08, 12:50 AM
the days of spending ungodly sums to race midpack in formula one are gone
Midpack???!?!?!?! Thats a championship day for them!
Winston Wolfe
12-05-08, 01:58 AM
Midpack???!?!?!?! Thats a championship day for them!
now wait just a minute.... didnt Woobens get a podium this year at the British GP when everyone else's engine quit, it rained, Lewis got a hall pass and no Marshall penalties, and Nicky Fry put an extra large fuel cell baldder in the Honda pig of a chassis for an economy run for 3rd place ????
He got six pts out of that one.... man, that seems so long ago.
When did Jenson actually win a race ????? several years ago, right ?
ilferrari
12-05-08, 05:41 AM
The teams currently get less than 50% of the TV revenues, and none of the other organizing revenues. Ecclestone could start helping the teams by stopping using F1 as his own personal get-rich enterprise. He's sucked countless billions out of the sport.
Rogue Leader
12-05-08, 08:48 AM
When did Jenson actually win a race ????? several years ago, right ?
I think that was in Hungary in 2006... and that win was the luck of not tossing it off like everyone else. He did have a decent finish to the season with a few 4ths and 5ths... that was Hondas shining moment.
chop456
12-05-08, 08:49 AM
I think that was in Hungary in 2006... and that win was the luck of not tossing it off like everyone else.
And what a surprise, considering what a tosser he usually was.
opinionated ow
12-05-08, 09:25 AM
And what a surprise, considering what a tosser he usually was.
Only won it because Alonso's suspension broke.
chop456
12-05-08, 09:54 AM
It was more of a joke than a commentary, but hey, whatever. ;)
The teams currently get less than 50% of the TV revenues, and none of the other organizing revenues. Ecclestone could start helping the teams by stopping using F1 as his own personal get-rich enterprise. He's sucked countless billions out of the sport.
Why don't you write a whitepaper? ;)
I don't think Toyota will stay too long. Especially if Honda bails.
I remember reading something a couple months back that 2009 was probably going to be it if there was a win.
Can't remember if it was something in-house or some innerweb reading.
Michaelhatesfans
12-05-08, 12:52 PM
They are saying that there are potential buyers, but we'll see about that. I can't imagine many people or companies shelling out that kind of money right now.
Then again, maybe this is where Dave Richards does an end run on Max and Bernie and we have Prodrive on the grid at Australia?:\
oddlycalm
12-05-08, 03:22 PM
The irony is that there is plenty of money to run a great series it's just that Bernie is keeping it all and Max has fingeritus with the car specs. Kill KERS and stablalize the specs for a few years if you are serious about wanting to save money. A spec engine meams all the manufacturers just lost interest. :shakehead
oc
A spec engine meams all the manufacturers just lost interest. :shakehead
oc Spec engine means F1 can survive without all the manufacturers. (Just because it's news to us, doesn't mean Bernie didn't hear about it months ago.)
Insomniac
12-05-08, 09:07 PM
I thought Ross Brawn was supposed to turn it all around in 2009? They wrote off 2008 to focus on 2009. Maybe all car makers have no ability to manage, some just have cheaper labor. :D
stroker
12-05-08, 09:32 PM
I thought Ross Brawn was supposed to turn it all around in 2009? They wrote off 2008 to focus on 2009. Maybe all car makers have no ability to manage, some just have cheaper labor. :D
Who said Ross Brown was leaving?
:D
Who said Ross Brown was leaving?
:D
Jeebuzz Brawn is buying teh leftovers and starting a new team wit jeebuzz Buttmacher. You heard it hear first. :gomer:
Andrew Longman
12-06-08, 11:04 AM
I thought Ross Brawn was supposed to turn it all around in 2009? They wrote off 2008 to focus on 2009. Maybe all car makers have no ability to manage, some just have cheaper labor. :D
T and H are run quite well. Remarkably better than the Detroit gang. I think the constant changing of the regs does not lead to effective engineering or development and does not return enough for them either commercially or as a means to improve their own people or designs. In other words F1 is too f'd up to bother.
Methanolandbrats
12-06-08, 12:57 PM
T and H are run quite well. Remarkably better than the Detroit gang. I think the constant changing of the regs does not lead to effective engineering or development and does not return enough for them either commercially or as a means to improve their own people or designs. In other words F1 is too f'd up to bother. T & H can't find their asses with both hands in F1 because they work by committee. Racing is only successful if a brilliant fascist runs the team. A good friend is pretty high up in Ricoh and it's the same thing, a good design is proposed and by the time dozens of people sign off on it they end up building a POS.
Insomniac
12-06-08, 01:50 PM
T and H are run quite well. Remarkably better than the Detroit gang. I think the constant changing of the regs does not lead to effective engineering or development and does not return enough for them either commercially or as a means to improve their own people or designs. In other words F1 is too f'd up to bother.
Honda's F1 racing program (which I assume spends more than all of its other racing programs combined) isn't run particularly well. I wonder how much actual racing R&D ends up in an average vehicle. I'd be surprised if it was much nowadays. T and H may be run better than the Big 3, but that's not saying much.
I wonder how much actual racing R&D ends up in an average vehicle. I'd be surprised if it was much nowadays.
Nothing.
oddlycalm
12-06-08, 09:58 PM
Now here's a shocking surprise, the teams want Bernie to share more.
FOTA pushes for more money (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/72367)
BTW, this is not the first time Honda has withdrawn. They will probably be back again at some point.
oc
miatanut
12-06-08, 10:35 PM
They spend what they do because they can. Make cost cutting measures in one area, they will just spend more in another. Share more of the revenue with the teams (which I think should be done), and they just have more money to spend somewhere.
Why not hit it from from the revenue angle? A manufacturer team car can only bear advertising from that manufacturer. A Ferrari can only say Ferrari or Fiat on it. No Marelli, Vodaphone, Shell, etc. An independent can have as many sponsors as they can sign up, but can't have any manufacturer's advertising on it. Not even a manufacturers name on the valve covers of the engine, if they buy the engine from an auto manufacturer. Have a Manufacturer's championship for the manufacturers, and a second Constructor's championship for the independents.
opinionated ow
12-07-08, 12:52 AM
They spend what they do because they can. Make cost cutting measures in one area, they will just spend more in another. Share more of the revenue with the teams (which I think should be done), and they just have more money to spend somewhere.
Why not hit it from from the revenue angle? A manufacturer team car can only bear advertising from that manufacturer. A Ferrari can only say Ferrari or Fiat on it. No Marelli, Vodaphone, Shell, etc. An independent can have as many sponsors as they can sign up, but can't have any manufacturer's advertising on it. Not even a manufacturers name on the valve covers of the engine, if they buy the engine from an auto manufacturer. Have a Manufacturer's championship for the manufacturers, and a second Constructor's championship for the independents.
Or how about no? Limiting the sponsorships available in a global economic meltdown is by far the dumbest idea I have heard on this forum (apart from the "turn Formula Atlantic into a series faster than Formula 1")
Andrew Longman
12-07-08, 10:00 AM
Honda's F1 racing program (which I assume spends more than all of its other racing programs combined) isn't run particularly well. I wonder how much actual racing R&D ends up in an average vehicle. I'd be surprised if it was much nowadays. T and H may be run better than the Big 3, but that's not saying much.
Honda's racing is not run particularly well. Brawn was correcting many of the obvious problems, such as too many people involved with the design and an erratic approach to engineering.
But that's not how the company is run. They are light year better than any of the big three. I've seen it first hand.
Gee... spec engine... standard ECU's... no space-age developments like KERS... sounds like GP2 to me. Takes the prize as the most advanced open-wheel series on the planet outside of F1.
What makes it "scalable" is that they have the European series and the Asian series, so they don't keep trying to cram more races in a limited schedule, and can expand their footprint to other markets. Kind of like LMS and ALMS.
Maybe GP2 fills the void left by F1 and (possible) collapse of the IRL, in North America? Would be ironic if all that's left for Tony George is to get a GP2 race at Indy.
Insomniac
12-07-08, 11:40 AM
Honda's racing is not run particularly well. Brawn was correcting many of the obvious problems, such as too many people involved with the design and an erratic approach to engineering.
But that's not how the company is run. They are light year better than any of the big three. I've seen it first hand.
Honda Racing is part of Honda, right? You must be talking about specific parts of the company then. Brawn did such a great job they packed up.
miatanut
12-07-08, 10:30 PM
Or how about no? Limiting the sponsorships available in a global economic meltdown is by far the dumbest idea I have heard on this forum (apart from the "turn Formula Atlantic into a series faster than Formula 1")
Limiting sponsorships on the folks who blew the budgets all out of whack.
The main problem is the hugely unequal playing field between the privateers and the manufacturers. It would be perfectly reasonable to make it unappealing for suppliers to provide free support to manufacturer teams. If Shell couldn’t advertise on the Ferrari, would they provide that free development support? Maybe, but less likely. On the other hand, the privateers need every revenue source they can get, but if you allow manufacturer advertising on a supposedly privateer entry, it just becomes another factory team under the appearance of a private team. Rather than having Max and his team of lawyers trying to figure out if a private team is factory team in disguise, just make it so a manufacturer wouldn’t enjoy benefit from a factory team that they can’t tell the world is a factory team.
Now the important part:
If you had a Manufacturer’s championship and a Constructor’s championship, the privateers have something to race for. Basically the ‘best of the rest’ trophy. To do it right (part of Bernie and Max sharing more of the treasure), the Manufacturer’s championship would be strictly for bragging rights. No money prizes of any kind. The Constructor’s championship would come with money. Maybe $1,000,000 per point, to be wired into the team’s account within a week of earning the points. Getting the prize as the year progresses allows a team to work it into this year’s budget. Also gives the teams and drivers something to fight for in THIS RACE. If moving up one place means $1,000,000 to the team this week (some of which the teams would undoubtedly share with the driver), it would definitely encourage bold passing moves.
More revenue for the folks who need it most, less for the folks with money to burn. If that’s the second stupidest proposal you’ve seen here, then OC is a Mensa board in disguise.
opinionated ow
12-07-08, 10:58 PM
Limiting sponsorships on the folks who blew the budgets all out of whack.
The main problem is the hugely unequal playing field between the privateers and the manufacturers. It would be perfectly reasonable to make it unappealing for suppliers to provide free support to manufacturer teams. If Shell couldn’t advertise on the Ferrari, would they provide that free development support? Maybe, but less likely. On the other hand, the privateers need every revenue source they can get, but if you allow manufacturer advertising on a supposedly privateer entry, it just becomes another factory team under the appearance of a private team. Rather than having Max and his team of lawyers trying to figure out if a private team is factory team in disguise, just make it so a manufacturer wouldn’t enjoy benefit from a factory team that they can’t tell the world is a factory team.
Now the important part:
If you had a Manufacturer’s championship and a Constructor’s championship, the privateers have something to race for. Basically the ‘best of the rest’ trophy. To do it right (part of Bernie and Max sharing more of the treasure), the Manufacturer’s championship would be strictly for bragging rights. No money prizes of any kind. The Constructor’s championship would come with money. Maybe $1,000,000 per point, to be wired into the team’s account within a week of earning the points. Getting the prize as the year progresses allows a team to work it into this year’s budget. Also gives the teams and drivers something to fight for in THIS RACE. If moving up one place means $1,000,000 to the team this week (some of which the teams would undoubtedly share with the driver), it would definitely encourage bold passing moves.
More revenue for the folks who need it most, less for the folks with money to burn. If that’s the second stupidest proposal you’ve seen here, then OC is a Mensa board in disguise.
What you're advocating is GP1...not Formula 1. A spec series.
Ferrari to accelerate cuts in the wake of Honda pulling out:
http://sports.espn.go.com/rpm/racing/f1/news/story?id=3753740
Honda quit F1 on Friday, saying that in the current economic downturn it needs to focus on its core business of making and selling cars rather than spending $291 million a year to race them on Grand Prix tracks.
In three seasons, and with such massive investment, Honda managed just one race victory.
Ferrari -- the oldest team in F1 -- has won more than 200 races.
Domenicali called Honda's decision "a lightning strike in a clear sky."
"It's a big crisis and you can understand the reasons that would force an automaker, faced with thousands of job firings, to engage in such drastic cost-cutting," he said.
"F1 has already weathered some very tough times. It's key to react lucidly and avoid mistakes in strategy that you could pay a costly price for when things improve."
-Kevin
miatanut
12-08-08, 01:01 PM
What you're advocating is GP1...not Formula 1. A spec series.
:confused:
Currently they are using a spec ECU and talking about going to a spec engine and spec gearbox, none of which will save cost, because the teams will just spend the money they would have spent on engines and gearboxes on aero.
I'm advocating taking measures which could potentially restrict revenue for the wealthy manufacturer teams and would definitely increase revenue for the independents (almost gone from F1 currently), but they could use whatever engine or gearbox they want.
How is that GP1 as compared with the current direction F1 is heading?
opinionated ow
12-08-08, 06:47 PM
So?
Have you gone mad? Formula 1 as a spec series? It defeats the entire purpose of Formula 1!
Methanolandbrats
12-09-08, 09:03 AM
Uh oh, http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7772212.stm
oddlycalm
12-09-08, 03:59 PM
Looks like a spec engine is a done deal.
Standard Engine Set For Approval (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/72413)
Flav's take
"Regarding the question of the engines, sure we need to cut the costs but for me, all this discussion about Formula One engines, already today, with frozen engines, theoretically there is no development.
I'm guessing Benz, Ferrari and BMW are the only ones to opt out. Quite a nice plum for Cosworth who would supply a lot of engines at around $8.8 million for at least 10 cars.
This may also make it easier for Honda to sell it's operation.
oc
Have you gone mad? Formula 1 as a spec series? It defeats the entire purpose of Formula 1!
I thought the purpose was to determine the world's best driver.
Insomniac
12-09-08, 04:21 PM
Looks like a spec engine is a done deal.
Standard Engine Set For Approval (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/72413)
I'm guessing Benz, Ferrari and BMW are the only ones to opt out. Quite a nice plum for Cosworth who would supply a lot of engines at around $8.8 million for at least 10 cars.
This may also make it easier for Honda to sell it's operation.
oc
All I can say is the aero changes better work.
I thought the purpose was to determine the world's best driver.
You're forgetting about the Constructor's Championship, one of those things Bernie and Max dreamed up to keep Group C sports endurance racing from overwhelming F1.
I thought the purpose was to determine the world's best driver.
Uh, no. You must be thinking of IROC.
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