Question regarding Lotus CART team in 1985?

[Fio1]

In late 1984, Al Unser jr left Galles to potentially join a team named Lotus for the 1985 CART championship. Meanwhile, John Paul jr signed with Shierson (Dominos car) for the 85 season, after Danny Sullivan left it to join Penske. When the Lotus team never materialized, Little Al was left without a ride. But, since Paul jr got incarcerated for drug dealing the Shierson ride opened up and the rest is history. (Al Unser jr missed the 85 title by 1 point in the #30 Dominos Shierson Lola).

My questions are these:
First, was Team Lotus actually F1 team Lotus?
Second, where they actually going to run a Lotus made chassis?
Third, why did the team never get off the ground?
And finally, who was supposedly bank-rolling this deal, and persuaded Al Unser jr to leave a ride like the Coors Light Galles entry?

Thanks.

[Michaelhatesfans]

That one's not ringing any bells...:confused:

There was the Ferrari talk around that time, but I don't recall Lotus being mentioned as a potential CART entry. You're not thinking of Unser's test with Williams, are you?

I could be wrong, but I don't remember it. Maybe an excuse to go through the On Tracks in the attic?:\

[NismoZ]

The name Roy Winkelmann rings a bell. Wasn't he the guy who was going to run the Lotus team in CART?

[pchall]

First, was Team Lotus actually F1 team Lotus?

The entrant was supposed to be Roy Winkleman, an expat American businessman who ran a very successful F2 operation in the 60s and 70s.

Second, where they actually going to run a Lotus made chassis?

Yes. The Lotus 96 was a purpose built all CF chassis for CART Indycar:

http://grandprixinsider.files.wordpress.com/2008/02/1984_cartlotus-96t-diag.jpg

Third, why did the team never get off the ground?

The Lotus 96 scared the pants off of Roger Penske, whose facility at Poole would not have the capability to produce an all CF chassis for at least a couple of more years. He got the other CART owners to ban all CF chassis until Penske Cars could make one for him. The issue was supposedly "cost containment". Does anybody know if Lola and March were prepared to do an all CF chassis at the time? I would think not, since neither was building an F1 car then.

And finally, who was supposedly bank-rolling this deal, and persuaded Al Unser jr to leave a ride like the Coors Light Galles entry?

If memory serves, it was Winkleman and his brother Rob, who had raced sports cars in the US and Canada and built an FF called the Palliser and Winkelman FF and FB cars in the mid/late 60s with the Can Am racer Hugh Dibley. I don't remember a sponsorship ever being announced.

Thanks.

You're welcome. And thank you for making me rummage in my memory banks for enough stuff to give you some answers. :)

[NismoZ]

Yup, "not approved" by CART.:rofl:(also couldn't raise needed sponsorship) Reading where Roy Winkelmann was a CIA guy:eek: Jochen Rindt was one of his great drivers in F-2.

[Michaelhatesfans]

Nice grab! I remembered the carbon fiber debate, but not in connection with Lotus. I still might go up to the attic anyway.:)

[NismoZ]

PS...and Kevlar, too! $

[Fio1]

:eek:pchall!:D (there isn't a wow one of those, so eek looks the most like WOW!)

Wow, thanks man. I knew you guys would know/remember, but I didn't think to that extent. :thumbup:

That's a nice car btw. When & who had the first all carbon CART car? Wasn't it the Ligier in 84?

[Andrew Longman]

Brilliant example of why OC is worth the server space.

Wasn't there a similar issue with Alfa and/or Porsche chassis?

[pchall]

Brilliant example of why OC is worth the server space.

Wasn't there a similar issue with Alfa and/or Porsche chassis?

No, by then Penske Cars and Lola already had all CF chassis by 1989 so Alfa and Porsche didn't have any problems with the bespoke chassis from March.

[Al Czervik]

OK, going from memory here...

I don't know why the Lotus never got going, but the '90 March/Porsche was going to be the first all carbon Champcar. Before the season started, the rules were changed prohibiting all CF chasis. The March had to be redesigned, putting the Porsche program way behind. They never recovered. The death of Al Holbert also put a pretty big wrench into things for Porsche as well.

<Murray Walker> I could be mistaken, and I usually am. <Murray Walker>

edit: http://www.race-cars.com/carsold/lola/1105123997/1105123997ss.htm

Lists '89 Lola as Carbon/Al Honeycomb

[Methanolandbrats]

OK, going from memory here...

I don't know why the Lotus never got going, but the '90 March/Porsche was going to be the first all carbon Champcar. Before the season started, the rules were changed prohibiting all CF chasis. The March had to be redesigned, putting the Porsche program way behind. They never recovered. The death of Al Holbert also put a pretty big wrench into things for Porsche as well.

<Murray Walker> I could be mistaken, and I usually am. <Murray Walker>

edit: http://www.race-cars.com/carsold/lola/1105123997/1105123997ss.htm

Lists '89 Lola as Carbon/Al Honeycomb That's what I remember too. Porsche was quick as hell in testing and in the spirit of competition Penske had it banned.

[cameraman]

That was one of the earlier entrees on the epic list of reasons to hate Penske:irked:

[jcollins28]

Not only that but Porsche was screwed twice by Penske. Don't forgot about 70 when Penske and Foyt b*tched and moaned about the Porsche engine.

[pchall]

Not only that but Porsche was screwed twice by Penske. Don't forgot about 70 when Penske and Foyt b*tched and moaned about the Porsche engine.

Wasn't that in 1980 with Ted Field's Interscope Porsche (turbo flat six)?

http://962.com/historic_porsches/porsche_indy_1022/sgtb090small_f.jpg

[jcollins28]

Wasn't that in 1980 with Ted Field's Interscope Porsche (turbo flat six)?

http://962.com/historic_porsches/porsche_indy_1022/sgtb090small_f.jpg

LOL hit the 0 on accident instead of the 9. It was during offseason testing in 79 that Penske and Foyt snuck into Ontario Motor Speedway to see how fast the Porsche was running. So when the season started in 80 the rules had changed for Porsche.

[Al Czervik]

LOL hit the 0 on accident instead of the 9. It was during offseason testing in 79 that Penske and Foyt snuck into Ontario Motor Speedway to see how fast the Porsche was running. So when the season started in 80 the rules had changed for Porsche.

At the time, USAC had different boost levels for 4 cyl (Offy) and 8 cyl (Cossie, Foyt) engines. Porsche, with their 6 cyl, figured their boost would be set between the two. Porsche built several engines, made announcements, etc. USAC wanted to see a dyno test, so they asked Porsche if they could come to Germany and have a look-see. Porsche figured, why not? The USAC technical rep? Foyt's engine man! (but 'ole AJ never got any special treatment from USAC and the Speedway, right?)

The boost level was set at the 8 cyl level, and the Porsche powered car was never raced.

The infamous Batmobile Interscope car was originally designed to take a Porsche flat-6 turbo.

Good article on the whole situation in a Porsche rag (Excellence ???) a couple of years ago.

[Michaelhatesfans]

Just think, if it had worked out and if JPS had coughed up the money, we wouldn't have had to squint every time the Provimi car came by and pretended that we were seeing the real thing.:cool:

http://grandprixinsider.files.wordpress.com/2008/02/1984_cartlotus-96t-diag.jpg

http://race-cars.com/carsold/lotus/l95t03/l95t03pa.jpg

[Michaelhatesfans]

There's more here, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lotus_96T

[pchall]

I can't resist making a 95T / 96 / 97T sandwich to show how Chapman & Team Lotus still thought of a champ car as a beefed F1 car capable of racing on ovals.

http://www.renaultoloog.nl/lotus_95t_angelis_1984.jpg

http://grandprixinsider.files.wordpress.com/2008/02/1984_cartlotus-96t-diag.jpg

http://race-cars.com/carsold/lotus/l95t03/l95t03pa.jpg