INDY CARS?

[sundaydriver]

I started following the Indy 500 when I was young. I've always been a fan until 1996 when Tony took his ball and went home. One thing I dont understand is the term "Indy Car". Wasn't the rear engine car designed in Europe and brought to Indy? I thought the front engine roadsters were the Indy heritage and that those cars truely reflect the term "Indy Car". I am wrong?

[Lizzerd]

You are correct, sir. A real "Indy Car" is a cigar shaped, front engined, four wheeled tank on six inch wide tires. Just ask anybody at TF.

[Railbird]

Sorry folks.

Post WWII they were Champcars as in cars that competed on the Championship Trail.

The term Indy was coined by the Beach Boys in their tune about some brat getting her T bird taken away by her daddy.

The west coast drag racers started calling Indianapolis "Indy" in the early sixties when they came to the US Nationals.

"Indycar" eventualy became some sort of accepted slang that CART was stupid enough to pay to adopt for it's premiere series.

[Lizzerd]

Your point and explanation of the facts are accepted here, 'bird.

I was only speaking figuratively.

[sundaydriver]

Thanks for info Railbird. However, maybe I didn't make my case clear.
Were all Champcars, prior to WWII, rear engined? I always thought that the rear engined cars were "invented" in Europe and exported here, to the 500. I'm trying to understand who brought rear engined cars to Indy.

So, let me see if I have this right. Champ Cars are running front engine roadsters until sometime in the late sixties when technology changes and they go to a rear engine placement. The name "Indy Car" does not refer to a "type" of car but rather to a car that races at Indy.

Is that about right? Thanks.

Just read the Robin Miller article, great piece and it cleared up a few questions I had.

[pchall]

Originally posted by sundaydriver
Were all Champcars, prior to WWII, rear engined?


I hope you are being facetious.


If not, the answer is "No."

The first rear engined car at Indy must have been the Miller Auto Union knock off with a six cylinder engine in 1940. The next one would have been the post war Rounds "Rocket", which also looked like an Auto Union inspired piece. Neither did well.

Modern, properly prepared race cars didn't show up at Indy until the early 60s.

[sundaydriver]

Originally posted by pchall
I hope you are being facetious.


If not, the answer is "No."

The first rear engined car at Indy must have been the Miller Auto Union knock off with a six cylinder engine in 1940. The next one would have been the post war Rounds "Rocket", which also looked like an Auto Union inspired piece. Neither did well.

Modern, properly prepared race cars didn't show up at Indy until the early 60s.

pchall, no I wasn't, I'm just not that smart when it comes to auto history. :laugh:

[Railbird]

Sundaydriver

Let me see if I can clear up a few things without being as condescending as pchall.

The term "Champcar" became popular slang in the post WWII era refering to cars competing on the National Championship Trail. Pre WWII the term used for the most part was Big Cars for cars that raced the various dirt races that made up the "Trail". The cars that raced at the Indianapolis Motor Speedway exclusively were called "Specials" which also became a slang term loosely used to describe everything from Fronty Fords to Miller/Duesie hybrids and all things in between.

The board tracks fit in here somewhere but lets leave that for another time.


Like I said the term "Indy" came from a horrible old Beach Boy tune and was hated by Anton Hulman. The west coast drag racers refered to Indianapolis as Indy when they began making their pilgramage to the midwest for the US Nationals in the early sixties.

"Indycars" became a popular slang term around the time of CART's birth and was later adapted by them after agreeing to pay a royalty fee to IMS.

Neither have anything to do with the placement of the engine.

The first rearengine car made an appearence at Indy in the form of Lee Oldfield's 1937 Marmon powered entry. It was an ill prepared nightmare that ran but a few laps of practice.

Harry Miller's four wheel drive rearengine efforts began in 39 and continued through the post war era with little success. Funding by such diverse folks as Gulf Oil and the Tucker Torpedo had little effect on a bad concept and garage fires. The Rounds Rocket was another Miller design that looked promising with a simple offy engine and a two wheel drive layout, but in the end proved too heavy and complex for the task at hand.

As a comment on pchall's statements I would have to say that claiming "Modern, properly prepared race cars didn't show up at Indy until the early 60s." is a broad brush statement that condemns some fabulous machines built for the times and conditions of their era.

[racer2c]

Nice summary 'bird. If I'm not mistaken, the "properly prepared race cars" were Grand Prix cars and the 500 was part of their championship for a short time. Right?

[ChrisB]

Edit: Better yet... see this post (http://www.offcamber.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1563) over in the CCWS forum instead.

("Champ car" as used back in the day)

[sundaydriver]

Nice stuff, thanks guys. I have been following racing for a long time but not until about 1992 did I start to really follow the whole CART schedule. Therefore I was a little confused about the history of Champ Cars vs. Indy cars.

Thanks for the history lesson. ;)

[Railbird]

Points were awarded for Indy from 50 to 60 which is why you will see guys like Pat Flaherty and the Rathmann brothers show up in the points totals from that era. I believe Troy Rutmann was the only American Champcar driver to actually participate in a proper Grand Prix during that time. Once the US got it's own GP the points were no longer awarded at Indy.

Ferrari made a couple efforts at Indy during that time but the gap between the machinery and the task at hand was too large, much as it would have been if an offy roadster would have shown up at Spa.


You have to go back to Jimmy Murphy to find an example of real cross competition.

edit:

Thanks for the photos Chris

[ChrisB]

Ironically, supposedly Tony Hulman Sr didn't like the term "Indy".

The term "Indy car" really took off in the early 80's with "PPG Indy Car World Series". Supposedly it was Roger Penske who brought the PPG sponsorship into CART. Given this and Roger's position within CART.. as well as his focus for Indy, but not the short-track culture (in which the term "Champ car" still had some association with Silver Crown) ...My guess is that it was Penske who got the switch going from "Champ car" to "Indy car" in the early 80's.