Cripple Walls

[TravelGal]

Yawn. Spent the last hour (between reading OC) reading the latest versions of my home and earthquake insurance policies.

I see that I may be eligible for (neglible, I'm sure) discount "if certain earthquake hazard reduction steps have been taken, including the following:

b) cripple walls are braced with plywood or its equivalent"

My house is half slab and half raised what equals two steps inside the house. That part is bolted to the foundation.

I've looked at diagrams that seem to indicate that the house would have to be up a minimum of 3 steps off the ground level even to have a cripple wall.

True? Or, how do I know if I even have a cripple wall -- much less whether it's braced?

I might add that this house went through a 6.7 quake with epicenter 6 miles from here so we've had lots of repair work including plywood bracing on the outside walls but this one is new to me.

[cameraman]

I see that I may be eligible for (neglible, I'm sure) discount "if certain earthquake hazard reduction steps have been taken, including the following:

b) cripple walls are braced with plywood or its equivalent"

You might want to contact the insurance company and find out who or how that particular decision is made. They would love to deny a claim because you said the wall met that cripple wall requirement when their definition in section IV.17.F.22.j.17b clearly states that it doesn't.:irked:

[TravelGal]

You might want to contact the insurance company and find out who or how that particular decision is made. They would love to deny a claim because you said the wall met that cripple wall requirement when their definition in section IV.17.F.22.j.17b clearly states that it doesn't.:irked:

That's a good point. Sounds like you've been skewered by it a time or two. :rolleyes:

Having spent the morning with "Juanita" discussing our car insurance, I can just imagine what the conversation on cripple walls is going to be like. I'll be lucky if she doesn't give me the name of the local hospital.

[chop456]

Mmmm....Sheena Easton.

[cameraman]

That's a good point. Sounds like you've been skewered by it a time or two. :rolleyes:

Large numbers of people try to rip off insurance companies all the time. In response to that threat the insurance companies now have an army of people devoted to figuring out ways to deny your claim. Regular people get caught in the crossfire and get royally screwed in the process. One thing that my wife has noticed as the lawsuits between individuals and their insurance carriers keep coming across her desk is that the laws are written very much in favor of the insurance industry. There have been several cases where common sense & any sense of justice say that the court should rule for the plaintiff but the law is written such that the court is forced to rule for the insurance company.

[emjaya]

My house is half slab and half raised what equals two steps inside the house. That part is bolted to the foundation.

I've looked at diagrams that seem to indicate that the house would have to be up a minimum of 3 steps off the ground level even to have a cripple wall.



Having never heard of a cripple wall, i went googleing to find out what it was: a small wall holding up the floor joists. In Oz, we would have stumps and a beam because of the termites.

http://www.abag.ca.gov/bayarea/eqmaps/fixit/ch2/sld017.htm
http://www.seismicsafety.com/cripwall.htm
http://www.bayarearetrofit.com/HowRetrofitWorks/howretrofitworks.html

If there is any sort of a wall between the foundations and the floor joists, it's called a cripple wall.

If your house is only part slab, then the other part is is probably sitting on a cripple wall. The number of stairs don't really matter.

This is from the second site:

http://www.seismicsafety.com/17-cripwall%20retro.jpg

If there are large bolts holding down the bottom plates, nailplates along the joists and 5 ply plywood sheets nailed to the studs and plates, then your cripple wall is braced.

I'd get someone to check, though. :)

[Napoleon]

Large numbers of people try to rip off insurance companies all the time. In response to that threat the insurance companies now have an army of people devoted to figuring out ways to deny your claim.

I would totally disagree with your premise that what you describe in your second sentence is caused by what people do as described in your first sentence. Insurance companies deny claims because it is one of 3 ways they make money. They 1) collect premiums, 2) earn investment income premiums collected and 3) pay out as little as possible. Fraud has nothing to do with it. There is nothing but their own greed stopping them from paying out legit claims.

[Sean Malone]

I would totally disagree with your premise that what you describe in your second sentence is caused by what people do as described in your first sentence. Insurance companies deny claims because it is one of 3 ways they make money. They 1) collect premiums, 2) earn investment income premiums collected and 3) pay out as little as possible. Fraud has nothing to do with it. There is nothing but their own greed stopping them from paying out legit claims.

I guess it depends on what kind of insurance. ;) Health insurance fraud is rampant.

[Ankf00]

ins. lobby owns tx state leg, well them and every other lobby w/ cash to burn under the sun... If you're a st. supreme court justice and commit arson to collect on your homeowner's policy, hell, you won't even spend a day in jail. You'll get to keep your seat on the court too!

yee haw mother ****ers. :cool:


:yuck:

[TravelGal]

Thanks emjaya. Your diagram is much clearer than the one I was looking at. And seems to show a cripple wall not reinforced with plywood. ;)

Whether the insurance companies write the convoluted, restrictive policies because of initial fraud is, I suppose, open to debate [see above] but I completely agree that those policies, clauses therein included, and laws are stacked mightily against John Q Public.

Needless to say I found lots of things to do today that would prevent me from calling the insurance company. I couldn't stomach it two days in a row. Maybe manana.

[Napoleon]

I guess it depends on what kind of insurance. ;) Health insurance fraud is rampant.

Really?

Funny, this guy (http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/Potter%20Commerce%20Committee%20written%20testimon y%20-%2020090624-%20FINAL.pdf)who was a senior executive at Cigna stated under oath yesterday that the problem is something else.


Of course his testimony was not nearly as good as that given on June 16 by these 3 current health care executives of WellPoint, UnitedHealth and Assurant (http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-rescind17-2009jun17,0,3508020,full.story) that even in the absence of fraud that they intended to cancel peoples coverage and avoid paying health care claims based on innocent discrepencies in paperwork.

[JLMannin]

Wellpoint was fined $1,000,000 in 2007 for systematically cancelling individual policies after policy holders became pregnant or developed chronic conditions. The fine was the result of an inventigation conducted from 2004 to early 2006, so this is old news.

http://articles.latimes.com/2007/mar/23/business/fi-health23

I read an WSJ article (sorry, I don't have a link) about Wellpoint's applications - they were accused of carefully crafting the form to be as confusing as possible and very difficult to fill out correctly, so that when claims were made, they could rescind the policy based on omissions and/or inaccurate application forms.

[Napoleon]

I read an WSJ article (sorry, I don't have a link) about Wellpoint's applications - they were accused of carefully crafting the form to be as confusing as possible and very difficult to fill out correctly, so that when claims were made, they could rescind the policy based on omissions and/or inaccurate application forms.

Funny, when I was typing my post I was wondering if some companies did that and I was trying to think back to the form I filled out (I am covered by Medical Mutual based in Cleveland and Ohio's largest health insurer).

[Methanolandbrats]

Illness, tornados, etc....all acts of God...........claim denied.........shareholder value enhanced.

[TravelGal]

Cough. Back on topic.

Spoke at length yesterday with (not Juanita but) Gloria. TravelGuy and I both studied the diagrams here and elsewhere and then stuck our head and shoulders through the itty bitty opening in the foundation to peer under the house.

Conclusion. We do not have cripple walls. Therefore, claim for deduction denied. Deduction only offered if you have cripple walls that are braced. No cripple walls means no braces means no deduction. Ya gotta love it. Not.

[miatanut]

Cough. Back on topic.

Spoke at length yesterday with (not Juanita but) Gloria. TravelGuy and I both studied the diagrams here and elsewhere and then stuck our head and shoulders through the itty bitty opening in the foundation to peer under the house.

Conclusion. We do not have cripple walls. Therefore, claim for deduction denied. Deduction only offered if you have cripple walls that are braced. No cripple walls means no braces means no deduction. Ya gotta love it. Not.

The thread title caught the eye of this architect. What are people talking about cripple walls in a racing forum for? :confused:

If I understand your first post correctly, half your house has a wood joist floor structure with a crawlspace under it. Between the bottom of the floor joists and the top of the concrete foundation is probably a piece of green 2X6 wood with lots of slits poked in it and the piece of wood is bolted to the concrete foundation.

Do I have that correct?

If I do, you don't have cripple walls, but the good news is, your house is less likely to have problems in a major earthquake!

[TravelGal]

The thread title caught the eye of this architect. What are people talking about cripple walls in a racing forum for? :confused:

If I understand your first post correctly, half your house has a wood joist floor structure with a crawlspace under it. Between the bottom of the floor joists and the top of the concrete foundation is probably a piece of green 2X6 wood with lots of slits poked in it and the piece of wood is bolted to the concrete foundation.

Do I have that correct?

If I do, you don't have cripple walls, but the good news is, your house is less likely to have problems in a major earthquake!

You have it correct. Exactamundo and my point precisely to the insurance agent. Of course she can't do anything about it but how stupid is it to NOT give a deduction when my house is SAFER than what they will give a deduction for.

The thread is here 'cuz the Community subforum is home to a collection of the best and brightest people on the internet. I knew I'd get my answer when I put up the original question. Yay us! Of course you knew that, because you are one of them. ;)

Edit: And thank you for confirming what this lay person thought. It seemed logical to me that the closer to the foundation the better. Less sway, torque, whatever. We're fast approaching the end of my imaginary structural engineering degree. LOL!