Another Dallara flips... this time at Richmond

[FCYTravis]

Helio Castroneves apparently flipped on his lid after heavy contact with Tony Kanaan at an IRL test at Richmond today. Dan Wheldon and Tomas Scheckter also wrecked.

Two questions:
How the heck do you flip a formula car on a 3/4 mile track?

How the heck can four drivers wreck IN A TEST?

[Peter Venkman]

"How the heck do you flip a formula car on a 3/4 mile track?

How the heck can four drivers wreck IN A TEST?"

Why are two perfectly capable race car drivers driving crapwagons?

[Racewriter]

1. There may be a problem with the Dallara.

2. It's an oval. They're not oval racers, and frankly, a couple of them have demonstrated that they're not very good.

[racer2c]

Originally posted by Racewriter
1. There may be a problem with the Dallara.

2. It's an oval. They're not oval racers, and frankly, a couple of them have demonstrated that they're not very good.

The two time Indy champ isn't an oval racer? Blasphemy!

Oh, and there's always been a problem with the Dallara.

[Ziggy]

Honestly, I bet it was the wheel thethers. In a violent impact, the car seems to jump up just in time to trap a wheel underneath itself. The nose high attitude allows the cars to take flight. I imagine a crash at Richmond in a car of this speed is pretty ugly in itself.

Ziggy

[RobGuru]

Richmond = Far Too Dangerous For These Cars

Wasn't it Richmond where a recent stock car crash literally resulted in a car being ripped in half... happened at a gate in the wall where transporters cross the track? What would this do to a Formula Tony car?

[Racewriter]

Originally posted by RobGuru
Richmond = Far Too Dangerous For These Cars

Wasn't it Richmond where a recent stock car crash literally resulted in a car being ripped in half... happened at a gate in the wall where transporters cross the track? What would this do to a Formula Tony car?

That was Bristol.

But thanks for playing.

[Railbird]

They're not oval racers, and frankly, a couple of them have demonstrated that they're not very good.


What a joke.

Like going fast on a chicken**** oval like Richmond is tricky for Helio...

When the boys commence to wreckin' at a bull ring the odds of tripping over a wheel are pretty good.

No big deal.

[FRANKY]

"Castroneves' car hit the left rear of Kanaan's car and briefly became airborne before ending upside down at the start/finish line........

"We were both running full tanks," Kanaan said. "In talking to Helio, what happened was I was warming my tires, and he was obviously going much quicker. I went wide in Turn 3 and 4. I was going a slower speed than him, and he was in a blind spot. He hit me from behind. Fortunately, he's OK and I'm OK, so we're going to go back home."

**** Happens.

[Ziggy]

Whatever happened to the one car test? In the feel good IRL, they have been having alot of mulitple car testing accidents. They should sell tickets! RACIN' WRECKIN' Entertainment

Makes Tony's world go 'round

Ziggy

[Racewriter]

Originally posted by Railbird
They're not oval racers, and frankly, a couple of them have demonstrated that they're not very good.


What a joke.

Like going fast on a chicken**** oval like Richmond is tricky for Helio...

When the boys commence to wreckin' at a bull ring the odds of tripping over a wheel are pretty good.

No big deal.

Yep, Richmond's a driver's track, all right...

The Dallara staff likes it, I'm sure.

[RobGuru]

Originally posted by Racewriter
That was Bristol.

But thanks for playing.

My bad... :cool:
Point for me 'cuz I didn't know NASCAB trivia! :D

[cart7]

So what if 3 cars have gone up like kites in the past month? Nothing to see here, move along. Everyone follow the lead, put you're heads back in the sand now. This is oval racing and these kind of things are gonna happen when you're trying to produce that close side-by-side racing that draws the fans in by the droves.

Thankfully, no one's been seriously hurt. Yet

[FRANKY]

This chapter will reopen before the end of the year.

[Hot Rod Otis]

Originally posted by cart7
So what if 3 cars have gone up like kites in the past month? Nothing to see here, move along. Everyone follow the lead, put you're heads back in the sand now. This is oval racing and these kind of things are gonna happen when you're trying to produce that close side-by-side racing that draws the fans in by the droves.



Thats right. Webb & 220 have stated that in no uncertain terms, there's NOTHING to all these blow-overs. And if you question them about it, your posts get axed. Right Badger?

:shakehead

[Chief]

Originally posted by cart7
Thankfully, no one's been seriously hurt. Yet

I don't think SERIOUSLY is recognized in their vocabulary. Apparently there's only racing and yet.

[cart7]

Pretty pathetic when I post a concern as to whether anyone's gonna look into these crashes and I get shouted down by the faithful for having an agenda. :shakehead Yeah, cars flipping onto their tops with the potential to maim or kill a driver is a split inspired agenda.

The lemming faithful continue to resort to denial about the safety of the irl cars. Last year, they were denying there was a need for concern about the number of broken backs. I sure don't want to be in the stands at these cookie cutter races if one of those cars goes airborne and manages to get over the fence. It'll make Charlotte seem like a scrape on the leg. :shakehead

[racer2c]

Originally posted by Racewriter
Yep, Richmond's a driver's track, all right...

The Dallara staff likes it, I'm sure.

I'm sure Minardi think highly of their POS too. What's your point?

[pchall]

Originally posted by racer2c
I'm sure Minardi think highly of their POS too. What's your point?

Lots of parts sales for the POS after each race and each testing session.

[Racewriter]

Originally posted by cart7
Pretty pathetic when I post a concern as to whether anyone's gonna look into these crashes and I get shouted down by the faithful for having an agenda. :shakehead Yeah, cars flipping onto their tops with the potential to maim or kill a driver is a split inspired agenda.

The lemming faithful continue to resort to denial about the safety of the irl cars. Last year, they were denying there was a need for concern about the number of broken backs. I sure don't want to be in the stands at these cookie cutter races if one of those cars goes airborne and manages to get over the fence. It'll make Charlotte seem like a scrape on the leg. :shakehead

You are correct, C7. One is a fluke, two is coincidence, three is a pattern.

[Badger]

Originally posted by Hot Rod Otis
Thats right. Webb & 220 have stated that in no uncertain terms, there's NOTHING to all these blow-overs. And if you question them about it, your posts get axed. Right Badger?

:shakehead
Yes, the axing of what were very legit posts has me wondering a little more what really transpired in the Kannan/Helio crash. For those wondering, I merely questined the expertise of :rolleyes: 220 and hwc. I don't know if there is a problem with the current cars, or what happened in the Richmond crash. I merely pointed out that it might be wise to consider there could be a problem with the current Dallara. After being told there is nothing to these cars flipping and to suggest so would be ignorant, you will notice if you go there that no one addressed my specific points.

Basically, when the nose pitches up, a blowover can occur if the center of pressure is above and in front of the center of gravity. After being informed the cars have not changed except for a longer and higher side pod, I asked the simple question.

Wouldn't a sidepod lengthened at the front, placed higher in the air actually move the center of pressure further forward and higher when the car reaches a negative rake? Added to this fact is the extremely long nose on the Dallara which again would move the center of pressure forward. To me, this would create a longer lever arm for the aero forces to act increasing the likelyhood of a blowover. Now for the record, it is possible that this years car even with the changes is no worse or could even be better than last years, however, to dismiss it as not even a possible problem is assinine.

[Peter Olivola]

It's unlikely that Dallara (or any other chassis manufacturer) is prepared to spend the kind of money it would take to do actual wind tunnel testing of cars that far off attitude to validate the computer modeling/finite element analysis they should be doing for cars with these speed capabilities. That includes Lola and Reynard, BTW.

The side pod change is less likely a culprit than the lengthening of the nose. It's not just a question of center of pressure vs. center of gravity. There is also a polar moment issue. Lengthening the nose is a way to "cheat" any front wing dimension limitations by increasing the lever length of the downforce generated. Unfortunately that also means that when the nose goes up sufficiently to change from downforce to lift the effect is also exagerated compared to a shorter nose. This, in turn, would put the rest of the package into a loss of downforce and even a lift situation, and the car achieves full rotation and lift off. The CP/CG issue then contributes to the rotation and the car wants to complete the blow over when the rear wheels leave the ground.


Originally posted by Badger
Yes, the axing of what were very legit posts has me wondering a little more what really transpired in the Kannan/Helio crash. For those wondering, I merely questined the expertise of :rolleyes: 220 and hwc. I don't know if there is a problem with the current cars, or what happened in the Richmond crash. I merely pointed out that it might be wise to consider there could be a problem with the current Dallara. After being told there is nothing to these cars flipping and to suggest so would be ignorant, you will notice if you go there that no one addressed my specific points.

Basically, when the nose pitches up, a blowover can occur if the center of pressure is above and in front of the center of gravity. After being informed the cars have not changed except for a longer and higher side pod, I asked the simple question.

Wouldn't a sidepod lengthened at the front, placed higher in the air actually move the center of pressure further forward and higher when the car reaches a negative rake? Added to this fact is the extremely long nose on the Dallara which again would move the center of pressure forward. To me, this would create a longer lever arm for the aero forces to act increasing the likelyhood of a blowover. Now for the record, it is possible that this years car even with the changes is no worse or could even be better than last years, however, to dismiss it as not even a possible problem is assinine.

[Ziggy]

Mountain, meet Molehill

Guys, Lets look at the facts. Mario flipped. He ran over a giant piece of styrofoam. Dan Weldon got on his lid. Im not sure, but I think his car jumped up on a tethered wheel which got knocked off its mounting points by ramming the wall. I spoke with some folks in the know today, and Helio ran over Kanann's LR wheel. Forever and ever if you run over a wheel, your gonna take a ride, ass over teakettle.

Do the cars have very narrow nose's? Yes. This may be the culprit in allowing things to get under the tunnel portion on the car

And this is MO. I have yet to see a "blow over" by any IRL crapwagon. If you have never read a post by Me, Im not a fan of the series.

no spell check as yet
Ziggy

[Chief]

"The collision sent Castroneves' car airbone. The Penske Dallara punched a hole in the fence on the outside of the three-quarter-mile oval, ending upside down and on fire at the finish line." - from indystar's AP article

I never realized Helio's car made contact with the fence, that must have been some air that the car caught, Richmond's turns are wide and this happened between 3 and 4 and Helio wound up at the finsih line. Yikes....

[oddlycalm]

I have two observations:

Most of us have seen Champcars get big air when wheels of two cars contact each other. I saw Ribeiro go every bit of 20ft. in the air when hooking Mikey's wheel during a practice session where Mikey was poking around on cold tires. Spectacular but uneventful.


Everyone should quite their carping. The IRL still enjoys a marginally better injury record than MotoGP :D

oc

[RacinM3]

I agree that this will rear it's ugly head again. I would guess there's a serious pitch-sensitivity problem with the Dallara, much like the Mercedes at Le Mans a couple of years back, and those cars were never raced again, I believe. Too many memories of the famous Le Mans tragedy back in the 50's for Benz.

[Hink]

Andretti - Launched by safer barrier debris. Not a true blowover but the air under the car didn't help keep him on the ground.

Wheldon - This really looks like a blowover. It can happen. Webb's "climb the wall" story is BS. I don't see the wheel under the car like Rutherford 1980 Phoenix for example. It looks like the right rear deflated after the first hit, that side of the car fell, the left front lifted, and air got underneath.

Helio Crying-Neves - Wheel to wheel contact from everything I've heard. Not a blowover.

[cart7]

All I can say is, I watched the whole thing transpire from my J stand seat. I saw Dan take Hornish to the grass on the jumbotron and then picked them up about mid turn 3 visually. Wheldon hit the wall like I've seen many times and I figured he'd slide out and bounce off a few more times before coming to rest in the entrance to 4, OR, he'd just drag along the wall. Either way, I was amazed when that thing took air and went up. I also don't buy that wheel climbing up the wall thing either.

[RaceChic]

Originally posted by RobGuru
My bad... :cool:
Point for me 'cuz I didn't know NASCAB trivia! :D

Be proud along with me, RobGuru!!!! :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: