Cash for clunkers

[nrc]

Let me see if I have this right. Because we bought a Miata in 1993 instead of an RX7 or Mustang - burning somewhere around 3000 fewer gallons of gasoline since that time, we don't get a $4500 credit.

And because we traded in the RX8 for our MINI a year and a half ago, burning another 600 fewer gallons of gasoline since that time, we again don't get a $4500 credit.

[TravelGal]

Yep, you got that right. Only the bad guys get rewarded for trading in their clunkers.

This is much like the Travel household where we have always conserved water. Now that we're asked to cut back, it's impossible to meet the target so we're penalized. The households that have been profligate in their water usage have lower bills because they can meet the "new" conservation target.

There are times when the story of the prodigal son makes sense to me and there are times when it doesn't. At least it illustrates the principle.

[Sean Malone]

And if I read the fine print correctly...the $4500 is the maximum allowed for the scrap value of the trade in, and it HAS to be scraped. They actually run gunk through the engine.

[nrc]

And if I read the fine print correctly...the $4500 is the maximum allowed for the scrap value of the trade in, and it HAS to be scraped. They actually run gunk through the engine.

Ok, so the RX8 wouldn't be a candidate since it would still have value, but the Miata would be. I guess I need to leave it idling the driveway until someone shows up with my bailout money.

[Winston Wolfe]

As someone who is in the business, I can tell you that the C4C program is working well - considering it is driving traffic into showrooms across the country. People have been waiting for this program to get finalized for some time, and the typical C4C customer coming into showrooms is well educated, with great credit, with title in hand on the "clunker", along with an internet quote (invoice or below) on the new car, and typically older... at least that what we are seeing out here on the left coast.
We havent seen sales numbers like this in SoCal since the state decided to raise the state income tax a full 1% back in March... this weekend sales activity beat the typically strong Memorial Day and Fourth of July type 3-day weekend style of promotion.
After what has been in the press lately about GM, Chrysler, etc, - this is a shot in the arm that the car biz needs. Even if, in the end, it doesnt really help F, GM and C - rather, it looks as though H, T and even N are going to see the real gains here. American consumers are speaking with their wallets and showing that a free market system is true capitalism.
Seeing that the $1billion set aside for program also includes $50 million to NHTSA to "administer and promote" the CARS program, and that $4,000 per qualifying new car purchase only nets a possible 250,000 units (not incremental, I might add) - I see that this $1billion will go away by the end of August, and will leave dealerships waiting many, many weeks waiting for their C4C money from Washington.... along with having to jump thru all of the bureacratic hoops and paperwork to claim their dough...
$1 billion in less than 60 days.... staggering.
It sure is bringing the folks out in droves to look at all that shiny new metal, and smelling those nice new leather seats!!!:thumbup:

[Sean Malone]

A dealer quoted by Automotive News (http://www.autonews.com/) said the program is working for his dealership.

“We sold more new vehicles on Friday and Saturday than any other Friday and Saturday the last year and a half,” said John Schenden, owner of Denver Pro Chrysler Jeep. Schenden also said the 17 new vehicles sold over the two-day period represent twice his normal sales.

[STD]

That's right. Got to pass along those corporate subsidies to those that produced and sold gas guzzling crap to many that were easily made to think they had to have gas guzzling crap.
Win, win in a gomer kind of way and be sure to complain about the way the subsidies are delivered.
Free market created, free market at work. :laugh:
Sounds too much like defense industry logic. :saywhat:

[Indy]

A car dealer friend says this is the best thing that has happened to his business in over a year.

We have an old car and thought about doing it, but you still run into the same fundamental problems. Even with $4500 off the price of a mid-large new car, you are looking at prohibitive depreciation vs. just finding that good buy with 30,000 miles on it. If you really have to have a new car this is a great deal, otherwise, not so much.

By the way, my local VW dealer (Tom Wood) says we can't use it for a TDI. :mad:

[extramundane]

By the way, my local VW dealer (Tom Wood) says we can't use it for a TDI. :mad:

Is that because of the C4C program, or because there aren't any TDIs left? Oilburner Jetta inventory is pretty much nil these days, and it'll be September at least before Mexico cranks out more.

[Sean Malone]

A car dealer friend says this is the best thing that has happened to his business in over a year.

We have an old car and thought about doing it, but you still run into the same fundamental problems. Even with $4500 off the price of a mid-large new car, you are looking at prohibitive depreciation vs. just finding that good buy with 30,000 miles on it. If you really have to have a new car this is a great deal, otherwise, not so much.

By the way, my local VW dealer (Tom Wood) says we can't use it for a TDI. :mad:

Chrysler is doubling the incentive making the total $9000 which brings a brand new PT Cruiser @ $18.5K down to $9.5K. Sounds great but who has a 'clunker' worth trading in for scrap metal these days?

[Wheel-Nut]

Is it $4500 plus what you would normally get for a trade-in?

[datachicane]

Is it $4500 plus what you would normally get for a trade-in?

Nope.
Cars are crushed, which has a significant negative impact on the resale value, and thus the trade-in. :gomer:

[Sean Malone]

Is it $4500 plus what you would normally get for a trade-in?

I don't think so.


* Your vehicle must be less than 25 years old on the trade-in date
* Only purchase of new vehicles qualify ($3,500 or $4,500 rebate depending on trade-in)
* Generally, trade-in vehicles must get 18 or less MPG (some very large pick-up trucks and cargo vans have different requirements)
* Trade-in vehicles must be registered and insured continuously for the full year preceding the trade-in.
* NOTE: Your vehicle trade-in may be worth more than this program, please see your local dealer if you have any questions.

[nrc]

They could have easily made this less of a reward for poor purchase decisions. Why not offer the deal for any purchase where the new vehicle mileage rating was at least 4mpg better than the trade-in?

[TKGAngel]

There were stories on the news this weekend of people who had cars picked out and deals worked out, only to find out that their old car no longer qualified as a clunker due to an updated list released by the federales.

[cameraman]

They could have easily made this less of a reward for poor purchase decisions. Why not offer the deal for any purchase where the new vehicle mileage rating was at least 4mpg better than the trade-in?

There are two goals, sell cars and get the gas guzzlers off of the road. They have no reason to try to clear the roads of 1995 Tercels. Also giving everybody $4500 would be way too expensive even for the Federal Government.

[oddlycalm]

They have no reason to try to clear the roads of 1995 Tercels.

Aesthetics aside...? :laugh:

oc

[TRDfan]

We did the math at our dealership a couple of weeks ago, and figured out the $ 1 BILLION dollars would be gone fast.

Guess we were right

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/07/30/officials-say-government-set-suspend-cash-clunkers-program/


Can't wait until they run healthcare

[nrc]

There are two goals, sell cars and get the gas guzzlers off of the road. They have no reason to try to clear the roads of 1995 Tercels. Also giving everybody $4500 would be way too expensive even for the Federal Government.

I can believe that since the 1995 Tercel isn't eligible as a trade-in.

It was never going to be a for everybody. It was always going to be first come, first served until the money's gone. Given how quickly the handouts got snapped up, they should have at least set the bar higher for the fuel economy of the new vehicle.

[Indy]

Is that because of the C4C program, or because there aren't any TDIs left? Oilburner Jetta inventory is pretty much nil these days, and it'll be September at least before Mexico cranks out more.

They have some. They are just being dicks.

[STD]

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5i_J2CDMBIZhobnHhGIYFCzqvR52wD99P4FNO2

[Napoleon]

Given how quickly the handouts got snapped up, they should have at least set the bar higher for the fuel economy of the new vehicle.

This is one of these things that its easy to see in hindsight, but going into it you have no template to use as a base to make a guess at how well the program will be received. The program's standards had to be nothing more then a WAG.

Personally I figured the program was going to be an enormous flop because people driving cars that would qualify, IMO, were not the types that were going to be able to qualify for financing in the tightest financing market in years or would have the money sitting under a mattress.

Boy was I wrong. On the plus side it sounds like it flushed out buyers that never would have bought. One local TV station was interviewing various sales people who said not one person they sold to would have been in the market and some people were showing up with cash to buy. They literally were fairly cheap people that were driving beaters and had socked away money, or really had good credit.

[Sean Malone]

Personally I figured the program was going to be an enormous flop because people driving cars that would qualify, IMO, were not the types that were going to be able to qualify for financing in the tightest financing market in years or would have the money sitting under a mattress.



That's been my question all along. I assume that this demo (the ones trading in the qualifying cars) is not that large though and this won't last long.

[Napoleon]

That's been my question all along. I assume that this demo (the ones trading in the qualifying cars) is not that large though and this won't last long.

Well if so and since they have about run out of money in the program maybe it more or less got it right. But who knows. I want to say that I heard once that something like 1/3 of homeowners own their houses outright, which just amazed me. It may be that a larger percentage of the population is pretty conservative with their money then you would think, and a program like this is getting them off the sidelines and opening their bank accounts.

I personally have only twice bought cars using financing, once when I bought a new car right out of college (the new car I bought coming out of high school was with money I had saved working in high school, but I was totally broke when I got out of grad school) and the car I just bought in April, but the only reason I did finance the newest car was that it was 0% over 5 year financing and with selling the old car and putting the money in the bank I figured I was, in effect, buying my own lay off insurance on the new car.

I would have been a natural for the cash for clunker program except the car I sold in April was a Toyoda Echo, so I kind of figured at the time there was no good reason to wait for the programs details to be announced since I almost certainly was not going to qualify if they had any kind of "you must improve MPG" requirement.

[Napoleon]

Well the house passed a measure doubling the program's funding.

[nissan gtp]

wonder if Dallaras qualify ?

[ChampcarShark]

I must confess, I still hung on to a 98 olds bravada. 18 mpg. and I found out it qualifies as a cluker. I'll be off to KIA motors, or maybe Mitsubishi.

My son wants a Lancer, he may get lucky.

[Insomniac]

The rebate amount was too high. In hindsight, should've started out lower and then bumped it if necessary.

[Gnam]

wonder if Dallaras qualify ?

:laugh: That was my thought too.

[Steve99]

wonder if Dallaras qualify ?

I think they're too old by now.

[chop456]

Yep. It's crap. I'd trade the Taurus wagon in for a TDI Sportwagen, but it gets 20 instead of the requisite 18. A net gain of 25mpg, but no love. Meanwhile, Goober trades in his F-950 for another guzzler and walks away with 5 large. Well done. :gomer:

[KLang]

Yep. It's crap. I'd trade the Taurus wagon in for a TDI Sportwagen, but it gets 20 instead of the requisite 18. A net gain of 25mpg, but no love. Meanwhile, Goober trades in his F-950 for another guzzler and walks away with 5 large. Well done. :gomer:

Our tax dollars at work. :irked:

[extramundane]

Meanwhile, Goober trades in his F-950 for another guzzler and walks away with 5 large. Well done. :gomer:


While I'm sure that scenario is happening, it's not the norm this far. Based on the first 70K transactions:

Most traded in:
1. 1998 Ford Explorer (14-17 mpg)
2. 1997 Ford Explorer (14-18 mpg)
3. 1996 Ford Explorer (14-18 mpg)
4. 1999 Ford Explorer (14-18 mpg)
5. Jeep Grand Cherokee
6. Jeep Cherokee
7. 1995 Ford Explorer (15-18 mpg)
8. 1994 Ford Explorer (15-18 mpg)
9. 1997 Ford Windstar (18 mpg)
10. 1999 Dodge Caravan (16-18 mpg)

Most purcashed:
1. Ford Focus (27-28 mpg)
2. Honda Civic (24-42 mpg)
3. Toyota Corolla (25-30 mpg)
4. Toyota Prius (46 mpg)
5. Ford Escape (20-32 mpg)
6. Toyota Camry (23-34 mpg)
7. Dodge Caliber (22-27 mpg)
8. Hyundai Elantra (26-28 mpg)
9. Honda Fit (29-31 mpg)
10. Chevy Cobalt (25-30 mpg)

If that many people are buying the awful Focus, I can only imagine what the Euro-spec Focus or the new Fiesta would have sold.

[SteveH]

If that many people were trading in SUVs and mini-vans for much smaller automobiles, do you suppose they really didn't need a SUV in the first place? nah....... ;)

[dando]

If that many people were trading in SUVs and mini-vans for much smaller automobiles, do you suppose they really didn't need a SUV in the first place? nah....... ;)

Either that or they became empty nesters and don't need the large ride anymore. I can assure you that our Explorer will go buh bye as soon as our kids leave the nest. But, yes, I'm sure a good portion on those trading in decided it wasn't worth it to drive a tank on a daily basis.

-Kevin

[Sean Malone]

Either that or they became empty nesters and don't need the large ride anymore. I can assure you that our Explorer will go buh bye as soon as our kids leave the nest. But, yes, I'm sure a good portion on those trading in decided it wasn't worth it to drive a tank on a daily basis.

-Kevin

I'm going to guess its split. As soon as our daughter left for college last year we dumped the minivan (which got 22mph with it's 3.3 V6). I still see Escalade/Excursion/Durango/Danali after Escalade/Excursion/Durango/Danali with mom by herself or with a kid or two. The people who I know who have those beasts site safty as the reason they own them. So if they can afford it...how can one (rhetorical question) argue against their desire to be safe? Especially when our highways are filled 18 wheelers going 85mph.

[trish]

I'm going to guess its split. As soon as our daughter left for college last year we dumped the minivan (which got 22mph with it's 3.3 V6). I still see Escalade/Excursion/Durango/Danali after Escalade/Excursion/Durango/Danali with mom by herself or with a kid or two. The people who I know who have those beasts site safty as the reason they own them. So if they can afford it...how can one (rhetorical question) argue against their desire to be safe? Especially when our highways are filled 18 wheelers going 85mph.

Safety means they can drive as carelessly as they please, because us in the little cars will take the brunt of the damage/injury. At least from what I've observed in my area.

[Gnam]

Now that the inventory has been slashed, will the dealers' take the risk of placing large orders for 2010 models?

It would also be interesting to see what percentage of the transactions were financed and how many paid cash.

[Steve99]

Most traded in:
1. 1998 Ford Explorer (14-17 mpg)
2. 1997 Ford Explorer (14-18 mpg)
3. 1996 Ford Explorer (14-18 mpg)
4. 1999 Ford Explorer (14-18 mpg)
7. 1995 Ford Explorer (15-18 mpg)
8. 1994 Ford Explorer (15-18 mpg)


Was there a Ford Explorer giveaway in the '90s that I missed out on?

[STD]

You must have not drank the koolaid. :)

[Brickman]

Was there a Ford Explorer giveaway in the '90s that I missed out on?

Well I think people bought minivans to not buy their parent's station wagons, and people bought SUV's not to buy minivans.

[extramundane]

The list was updated/clarified last night:

1. Ford Explorer 4WD
2. Ford F-150 2WD
3. Jeep Grand Cherokee 4WD
4. Jeep Cherokee 4WD
5. Dodge Caravan/Grand Caravan 2WD
6. Chevrolet Blazer 4WD
7. Ford Explorer 2WD
8. Ford F-150 Pickup 4WD
9. Chevrolet C1500 Pickup 2WD
10. Ford Windstar FWD Van

[Napoleon]

Meanwhile, Goober trades in his F-950 for another guzzler and walks away with 5 large.

I read that on average the vehicles bought got 12mpg better then the ones traded in, which was significantly better then they had expected.

[Methanolandbrats]

My cars are 25, 21 and 12 years old. One's a diesel. I've been getting 24-50 mpg for over two decades and saved a lot of fuel. I should get $4500 just for that. :D :gomer:

[Don Quixote]

I have a compost bin in my backyard. Where is my $4500? :\

[Methanolandbrats]

I have a compost bin in my backyard. Where is my $4500? :\ Damn right. :D

[gjc2]

I heard this morning that the $1,000,000,000 spent on the “C4C” program accounted for 157,000 vehicle sales. If that’s the case we spent about $6,400 per sale. Assuming an average rebate of $4,000 (equal amounts of $4,500 and $3,500 rebates) what happened to the extra $2,400 per sale? Is it possible that out of the one billion dollars spent almost $377,000,000 went to administrating the program? I want to know what happened to more than one third of our one billion dollars.

[cameraman]

Do your math again using the more current number of 250,000 cars. 157,000 sales have been entered into the system as of yesterday with another 90,000 in process. That is a $4000 average.

[Winston Wolfe]

I had read that NHTSA was given $50 million of the $1B to handle adminstration and promotion of the CARS program. I have spoken with many car dealers over the last week here in SoCal and will note several observations:
-Trade ins are 80% domestic vehicles with poor gas mileage, are typically very HIGH mileage units (150k plus), and were entirely paid off, and the folks who bought wanted to pay cash, were well educated, owned homes, and did not want any "back end" (F&I) products.
-The most popular replacement vehicles are cars, not SUVs. Civic, Accord and to a lesser extent the CR-V are the most popular new purchases. Same hold true with Camry and Corolla at the Toyota stores.
-Demand got so strong this weekend that salespeople and sales mgmt were relying on the old "Supply & Demand" philosophy that makes so many people LOVE the car biz.... when supply gets low, and customers are literally waiting in the showroom for a sales person to help them, the "desk" starts negotiating at MSRP - instead of three weeks ago, when the showroom was a ghost town and the desk manager was beginning and invoice and working "up" from there....
-A small minority of customers dont know what they are looking for, its just that they have heard there is $4,500 of free cash for their old car - many of them havent been in a dealership in YEARS - and they are unevenly matched against todays sales practices, incentives, factory cash and F&I products. Dealers will still take advantage when they can, in the name of capitalism.
-The C4C program has paid HUGE dividends for customers, who, like many stated here, are being rewarded for buying gas guzzling American iron years ago - but are now buying newer, safer, more fuel efficient vehicles - but approx 53% of those new products are imports.... but nevertheless, they are still putting money back into the pockets of dealerships, sales people and commissioned employees at car dealerships - many of whom have seen their incomes decrease 30-40% this year, due to a decrease in sales. These people in turn, have bills to pay, lives to run, etc. and it has been a "stimulus" to the car biz in many ways, and in fact, will help some marginal dealers stay in business long enough to collect their hand-outs from Obama-sales incentive program#1.
-The car biz has been taking alot of negative press lately with the GM debacle along with the Chrysler BK sitch, and the like.... Domestics have been taking a beating for while and this is a chance for many to see what the new domestics have to offer - many of these C4C buyers havent been to a showroom in years (if ever) and Detroit needs a positive shot in the arm.
-Surprise at how fast the money went ???? Heck yeah - we thought the first $1Billion would last through August - boy, were we ever wrong! The second the third BILLION should last a while longer - I think the pent up consumer demand from June&July has already bought their new car, and now we are taking away future sales biz from customers who would have bought in Sept & October.... the recent production decreases, the model year changeovers and lack of reliance on increased incentive dollars to move existing inventory has been forever changed by Cash for Clunkers....
-The dollars may have been better spent elsewhere, or by using another method to increase car sales, but we got what we got, and it sure did help keep alot of people busy over the last week or two !!!!:D

[grungex]

but approx 53% of those new products are imports

Imports, or import brands? Isn't the Ford Focus built in Mexico?

[TravelGal]

Imports, or import brands? Isn't the Ford Focus built in Mexico?

And aren't most Honda Civics (the ones sold in the US) built in the US? Three plants I can think of. Prolly more.

The kick is that now all those parts manufacturers that got thrown out of business in the BK debacles are not there to supply parts even if the dealerships did want to place big orders. Read something today about batteries not being available for certain models. :rolleyes:

[gjc2]

Do your math again using the more current number of 250,000 cars. 157,000 sales have been entered into the system as of yesterday with another 90,000 in process. That is a $4000 average.

The 157,000 number I cited came from an administration official I saw on TV (I didn’t get his name). He didn’t mention any deals still in the pipeline. If in fact the $1 Billion accounted for 250,000 vehicle sales the program had no administration costs. If the total number of units is 247,000 (157+90) then the administration cost is less the $50 per car, less than $12.5 Million in total.

[Napoleon]

And aren't most Honda Civics (the ones sold in the US) built in the US? Three plants I can think of. Prolly more.


Accords are, I don't know about Civics

[extramundane]

And aren't most Honda Civics (the ones sold in the US) built in the US? Three plants I can think of. Prolly more.


Yep, 3 NA plants build 'em: Ohio, Indiana & Ontario.


Isn't the Ford Focus built in Mexico?

The previous generation had at least some production in Mexico, but I believe the current NA Focus is built in Michigan.

[Winston Wolfe]

Imports, or import brands? Isn't the Ford Focus built in Mexico?

I meant import BRANDS - there is so much product confusion these days as to where the vehicles are actually built.
Huge majority of Civics are built in the US, but Civic Hybrids are still imported from Japan, and made on the same line as the new Insight.
Some Honda/Acura products are still made in Canada... dont get started on the Dodge / Ford / Chrysler Mexico & Canada production thing....:rolleyes:

otoh - think about the dealers who are selling cars today (some as many as 60-90 units) under the C4C program, and waiting for the government to a.) process / receive your claim, then b.) approve your claim and c.) reimburse you the funds via EFT.... In many cases these claims are in the $300k-400k for an "average" dealer - tough to "float" that for more than 45-60 days. The banks / flooring sources are going to want to get paid today, when the car leaves the lot... "Yeah, Mr. Flooring Line guy...ahhhh, yeah, I'm just waiting for my check from Mr. Obama - - it'll be here any day now, I promise"

[grungex]

The 157,000 number I cited came from an administration official I saw on TV

I saw the same number in print (online) somewhere, but in reference to the number of claims processed so far. I don't think that's the final number for the first $1B.

[Brickman]

My dad's 18 year old 106,000+ mile car would have been a good candidate. Book Value between $2500 and $2900 but is now going in the shop for new A/C {$1,000+}



It didn't qualify.

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Cars...olumn=1&id=7890

Well that makes me feel even better, they really have to be gas hogs to qualify.

[cameraman]

The 157,000 number I cited came from an administration official I saw on TV (I didn’t get his name). He didn’t mention any deals still in the pipeline. If in fact the $1 Billion accounted for 250,000 vehicle sales the program had no administration costs. If the total number of units is 247,000 (157+90) then the administration cost is less the $50 per car, less than $12.5 Million in total.

The program has $50 million budgeted for admin & advertising costs. Turns out they won't need the advertising so they won't spend that money.

Yesterday's total was 157,000 processed. This morning's total is 184,304 processed with a rebate value of $775.2 million. That is an average of $4206.09 per car. That also means they processed over 27,000 rebates in one business day. That is no small amount of work.

[SteveH]

The program has $50 million budgeted for admin & advertising costs. Turns out they won't need the advertising so they won't spend that money.

If its budgeted, it will be spent.

[Napoleon]

If its budgeted, it will be spent.

Well that is the whole idea of a stimulis package, spend money to keep money flowing through the system.

[gjc2]

Well that is the whole idea of a stimulis package, spend money to keep money flowing through the system.


I'm not a proponent of the government-centric view of the economy, although I know some are.

[STD]

Ravenous government contractors eat the stuff alive. :rofl:

[grungex]

I meant import BRANDS - there is so much product confusion these days as to where the vehicles are actually built.

Some more:

Not all the increased vehicle production will happen in the United States. Some hot sellers under the program, such as the Toyota Prius or Hyundai Elantra, are being imported from Asia. Even some of the "domestic" hot sellers, such as the Ford Fusion, are built on Mexican assembly lines.

But many of the import models getting a lift in sales, such as the Honda (HMC) Civic and Toyota Camry, are built on U.S. assembly lines.
CNN (http://money.cnn.com/2009/08/06/news/companies/clunkers_economic_impact/index.htm?postversion=2009080612)

[oddlycalm]

Even before this program the bearing companies (Timken, etc.) that sell to the auto companies had gone back to regular hours and normal product shipments had resumed. This will only enhance that. What I've heard is that 46% of the cars sold during CFC around produced in the US.

oc

[gjc2]

Now that additional funds have been appropriated to extend cash for clunkers I would like to know how many vehicle sales the first $One Billion account for. With almost 65% of the C4C transactions being eligible for the maximum rebate of $4,500 ($4,150 average) and with $Fifty Million going to administration of the program the first billion should have netted almost 241,000 sales. Did it?

[cameraman]

It isn't hard to find.


the Transportation Department said 245,384 vehicles had been sold by Friday morning, with rebates totaling $1.03 billion.

That is an average value of $4197.50

[Napoleon]

Even before this program the bearing companies (Timken, etc.) that sell to the auto companies had gone back to regular hours and normal product shipments had resumed.

The largest local steel mill here in Cleveland (and this being Cleveland it is huge) began issuing call back notices yesterday for some people to start Monday. Some (all?) of them have been out since 10/08.

[nrc]

Plenty of stories around speculating that the majority of these deals were either put off pending the gas guzzler bailout or moved forward slightly to take advantage of it. The real measure of benefit is hard to accomplish without some WAGs on purchases that wouldn't have happened otherwise. And of course all of this ignores the impact on the used car market, mechanics, etc.

The Miata has blown a clutch cylinder in protest. :mad:

Maybe we can get a good enough deal that we can get Missy an Expedition instead of a MINI Clubman and use the savings to pay for the gas. :irked:

[oddlycalm]

The largest local steel mill here in Cleveland (and this being Cleveland it is huge) began issuing call back notices yesterday for some people to start Monday. Some (all?) of them have been out since 10/08.

Yeah, from an economic stimulus standpoint this has clearly been successful. After that it's more questionable.

From an environmental standpoint the incremental fuel economy gains are offset by the energy required to build the new cars so that any net gain will be small and require time to be realized.

From a social standpoint rewarding people that bought gas hawgs not so many years ago is an incentive that is certainly open to question. It has also impacted charities that accept donation of cars.

oc

[gjc2]

From a social standpoint rewarding people that bought gas hawgs not so many years ago oc

I In order to qualify for C4C a car had to have an EPA combined rating of 18 MPG. For it to make economic sense (or to be an incentive) the car would have to have a value of less than the rebate amount. I don’t think many of the cars are recent purchases. I wouldn’t characterize the original purchase as such a bad decision.

I’m happy to see people getting there jobs back and seeing car dealers clearing out there inventories but I don’t like the idea of the government burning billions. I really believe less government is better government.

Feel free to report me to the Whitehouse.

[Sean Malone]

The largest local steel mill here in Cleveland (and this being Cleveland it is huge) began issuing call back notices yesterday for some people to start Monday. Some (all?) of them have been out since 10/08.

I don't think that relates to the CFC program. Chrysler fired up their lines last month as their Fiat deal moved forward and I assume GM's has also.

[Napoleon]

I don't think that relates to the CFC program. Chrysler fired up their lines last month as their Fiat deal moved forward and I assume GM's has also.

They said it was on part. Obviously running inventory off over 9 months takes more then one good week of sales so maybe, to pull a number out of thin air, it moved the date of the call back up 2 - 6 weeks, or something like that.

[trish]

FYI

Cash for Clunkers ends on Monday.

[gjc2]

I’m now hearing 457,000 vehicles for $3,000,000,000. The numbers just don’t work. I have contacted both of my Senators and my Congressman for the actual numbers, nobody has responded, however I have been reported to the Whitehouse (probably because of communications regarding another issue)

$3 Billion should account for more than 720,000 vehicle sales. I have a feeling that when the final numbers come out we’re going to be disappointed.

ps: I’m using $4,150 average rebate (65% $4,500) and $150,000,000 for administration ($50 Million per Billion)

[dando]

I’m now hearing 457,000 vehicles for $3,000,000,000. The numbers just don’t work. I have contacted both of my Senators and my Congressman for the actual numbers, nobody has responded, however I have been reported to the Whitehouse (probably because of communications regarding another issue)

$3 Billion should account for more than 720,000 vehicle sales. I have a feeling that when the final numbers come out we’re going to be disappointed.

ps: I’m using $4,150 average rebate (65% $4,500) and $150,000,000 for administration ($50 Million per Billion)

Add to that dealers are still waiting for their jack to cover their costs. :irked: :saywhat:

-Kevin

[KLang]

Add to that dealers are still waiting for their jack to cover their costs. :irked: :saywhat:

-Kevin

And these yahoos want control of the health care system? :saywhat: :irked:

[cameraman]

I’m now hearing 457,000 vehicles for $3,000,000,000. The numbers just don’t work.

As usual you heard wrong.
As of today, the CARS program has recorded more than 457,000 dealer transactions worth $1.9 billion in rebates

The rest have not been processed yet.

$1,900,000,000/457,000 = $4157/car.

[Insomniac]

As usual you heard wrong.

The rest have not been processed yet.

$1,900,000,000/457,000 = $4157/car.

It would be nice if at the end they provided a full list of the cars that were taken off the road, and the ones that were put on the road.

I know without knowing the amount of driving before and after it would be impossible to quantify the exact reduction in fuel consumption, but it would be interesting to see some estimated ranges.

[cameraman]

Publishing the final tally is part of the deal but it will take quite a while to crunch the numbers. The latest numbers are 489,000 dealer transactions valued at $2.04 billion.

[nrc]

To measure the results you'd really have to look at how it impacts the overall mix of registered vehicles going forward. Plenty of two car families will trade in their old Explorer on a Focus now to get the hand-out and turn around and then trade in their old Focus for an Explorer later on.

[Insomniac]

To measure the results you'd really have to look at how it impacts the overall mix of registered vehicles going forward. Plenty of two car families will trade in their old Explorer on a Focus now to get the hand-out and turn around and then trade in their old Focus for an Explorer later on.

Aren't a lot of reports that the vast majority of people trading in their "clunkers" are people with high miles and have kept them a long time? The CARS program just nudged them to make the purchase sooner than they would've. If that's the case, I would expect those people to continue to use the same car for a long time.

[Sean Malone]

I'm just thrilled that my tax money contributed to someones new car. If anyone ever needs a ride somewhere, the ~500K participants should be available at a moments notice. :)

[gjc2]

Publishing the final tally is part of the deal but it will take quite a while to crunch the numbers. The latest numbers are 489,000 dealer transactions valued at $2.04 billion.

The Congress allocated $3 Billion for the C4C program. Are there more cars in the pipeline to use up the remaining money? If not what happened to nearly $1,000,000,000?

[cameraman]

Another bit of public information available to anyone.
http://www.dot.gov/affairs/2009/dot13309.htm

C.A.R.S. Program Statistics
Wednesday, August 26th, 2009

Dealer Transactions
Number Submitted: 690,114
Dollar Value: $2,877.9M

Top 10 New Vehicles Purchased
1. Toyota Corolla
2. Honda Civic
3. Toyota Camry
4. Ford Focus FWD
5. Hyundai Elantra
6. Nissan Versa
7. Toyota Prius
8. Honda Accord
9. Honda Fit
10. Ford Escape FWD

New Vehicles Manufacturers
Toyota 19.4%
General Motors 17.6%
Ford 14.4%
Honda 13.0%
Nissan 8.7%
Hyundai 7.2%
Chrysler 6.6%
Kia 4.3%
Subaru 2.5%
Mazda 2.4%
Volkswagen 2.0%
Suzuki 0.6%
Mitsubishi 0.5%
MINI 0.4%
Smart 0.2%
Volvo 0.1%
All Other <0.1%


Top 10 Trade-in Vehicles
1. Ford Explorer 4WD
2. Ford F150 Pickup 2WD
3. Jeep Grand Cherokee 4WD
4. Ford Explorer 2WD
5. Dodge Caravan/Grand Caravan 2WD
6. Jeep Cherokee 4WD
7. Chevrolet Blazer 4WD
8. Chevrolet C1500 Pickup 2WD
9. Ford F150 Pickup 4WD
10. Ford Windstar FWD Van

Vehicles Purchased by Category
Passenger Cars: 404,046
Category 1 Truck: 231,651
Category 2 Truck: 46,836
Category 3 Truck: 2,408

Vehicle Trade-in by Category
Passenger Cars: 109,380
Category 1 Truck: 450,778
Category 2 Truck: 116,909
Category 3 Truck: 8,134

84% of trade-ins under the program are trucks, and 59% of new vehicles purchased are cars. The program worked far better than anyone anticipated at moving consumers out of old, dirty trucks and SUVs and into new more fuel-efficient cars.

Average Fuel Economy
New vehicles Mileage: 24.9 MPG
Trade-in Mileage: 15.8 MPG
Overall increase: 9.2 MPG, or a 58% improvement

Cars purchased under the program are, on average, 19% above the average fuel economy of all new cars currently available, and 59% above the average fuel economy of cars that were traded in. This means the program raised the average fuel economy of the fleet, while getting the dirtiest and most polluting vehicles off the road.

Requested Voucher Dollar Amount by State:
ALABAMA $31,251,500
ALASKA $4,868,500
ARIZONA $39,542,500
ARKANSAS $23,402,500
CALIFORNIA $326,822,000
COLORADO $37,676,500
CONNECTICUT $40,114,000
DELAWARE $11,235,000
DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA $67,500
FLORIDA $146,565,000
GEORGIA $70,496,000
GUAM $675,000
HAWAII $7,333,500
IDAHO $11,655,000
ILLINOIS $143,613,000
INDIANA $65,797,000
IOWA $37,728,000
KANSAS $31,496,500
KENTUCKY $40,246,500
LOUISIANA $33,376,500
MAINE $16,579,500
MARYLAND $74,903,000
MASSACHUSETTS $64,855,000
MICHIGAN $132,407,500
MINNESOTA $73,160,500
MISSISSIPPI $12,463,500
MISSOURI $61,271,500
MONTANA $6,461,000
NEBRASKA $21,784,500
NEVADA $14,582,000
NEW HAMPSHIRE $23,045,500
NEW JERSEY $103,375,500
NEW MEXICO $13,941,500
NEW YORK $156,292,000
NORTH CAROLINA $78,601,500
NORTH DAKOTA $8,938,000
OHIO $136,267,000
OKLAHOMA $37,422,000
OREGON $37,531,500
PENNSYLVANIA $138,651,500
PUERTO RICO $2,252,000
RHODE ISLAND $10,690,500
SOUTH CAROLINA $37,207,500
SOUTH DAKOTA $10,367,500
TENNESSEE $50,949,000
TEXAS $183,776,500
UTAH $24,102,500
VERMONT $9,879,000
VIRGIN ISLANDS $1,553,000
VIRGINIA $98,523,500
WASHINGTON $55,927,500
WEST VIRGINIA $13,477,000
WISCONSIN $70,165,000
WYOMING $2,513,000

[trish]

The Congress allocated $3 Billion for the C4C program. Are there more cars in the pipeline to use up the remaining money? If not what happened to nearly $1,000,000,000?

Maybe it's going to be allocated to the Cash for Refrigerators program. (http://news.yahoo.com/s/bw/20090824/bs_bw/aug2009db20090821304909)

[oddlycalm]

Maybe it's going to be allocated to the Cash for Refrigerators program. (http://news.yahoo.com/s/bw/20090824/bs_bw/aug2009db20090821304909)

There's also the tax credit for HVAC program. We got $2400 of combined tax credits and rebates from the Feds, state, Oregon energy trust and gas company when we replaced the AC and furnace back in June.

oc

[Sean Malone]

I'm holding out for 'Cash 4 Guitars'.

[Indy]

Well, I just hit submit and lost my work, but if I did the math correctly, the gasoline saved per year should equate to about 1.5 days worth of U.S. consumption. That is not insignificant, but it cost $3 Billion. There may be about 100 Million of us who actually pay significant income taxes. So this program cost each of us $30.

So explain to me again how it is constitutional that my $30 is taken by force to pay for someone else's new car?

[Sean Malone]

Well, I just hit submit and lost my work, but if I did the math correctly, the gasoline saved per year should equate to about 1.5 days worth of U.S. consumption. That is not insignificant, but it cost $3 Billion. There may be about 100 Million of us who actually pay significant income taxes. So this program cost each of us $30.

So explain to me again how it is constitutional that my $30 is taken by force to pay for someone else's new car?

Brother helping brother...it takes a village...where's your heart comrade?!!;) Lile I said, if I need a ride sometime, there should be a list of 690K people I can call.

[grungex]

So explain to me again how it is constitutional that my $30 is taken by force to pay for someone else's new car?

So explain to me again how it is constitutional that several thousand of my dollars are taken by force to pay for someone else's war?

[Napoleon]

This chart is sorted by per capita recipient: Hew Hampshire comes out on top:

http://norris.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/08/26/new-england-clunkers/#more-3423

[KLang]

So explain to me again how it is constitutional that several thousand of my dollars are taken by force to pay for someone else's war?

Funding the military is in the constitution. Wealth redistribution? Nope.

[nrc]

So explain to me again how it is constitutional that my $30 is taken by force to pay for someone else's new car?

"By force" is a stretch since it's no more by force than any other tax and expenditure. But it's constitutional because we elected the people who are given the authority by the constitution to take our money and decide where to spend it.

We have a recourse if we're not happy about their choices, we can vote against them. Of course we're all ultimately bound by the will of the majority unless we'd like to move to an island somewhere.

Unfortunately bailouts and attempts at social engineering are only going to add momentum to the growing feeling of entitlement that seems to be permeating society. At this point I'm just hoping that my retirement years hit during the peak period of entitlements. :gomer:

[Sean Malone]

"By force" is a stretch since it's no more by force than any other tax and expenditure. But it's constitutional because we elected the people who are given the authority by the constitution to take our money and decide where to spend it.

We have a recourse if you're not happy about their choices, we can vote against them. Of course we're all ultimately bound by the will of the majority unless we'd like to move to an island somewhere.

Unfortunately bailouts and attempts at social engineering are only going to add momentum to the growing feeling of entitlement that seems to be permeating society. At this point I'm just hoping that my retirement years hit during the peak period of entitlements. :gomer:

Ah, the ol' "no taxation without representation" which is why 'politics starts at home'. Nicely written Richard!:thumbup:

[Sean Malone]

Cash 4 Clunkers finished last Monday right? I'm seeing many commercials from numerous car companies still promoting the offer. An easy way to get people into the dealers or is there still a way to get the offer?

[dando]

Cash 4 Clunkers finished last Monday right? I'm seeing many commercials from numerous car companies still promoting the offer. An easy way to get people into the dealers or is there still a way to get the offer?

It ended Monday, but some local dealers here are offering a 'privately funded' C4C deal. No idea how that works. :confused:

-Kevin

[Don Quixote]

That's easy, they just raise the price of the new car by $4500 and then give you a $4500 trade-in for your clunker. :\

[cameraman]

An easy way to get people into the dealers?

Never underestimate the stupidity of the US public.

[Methanolandbrats]

That's easy, they just raise the price of the new car by $4500 and then give you a $4500 trade-in for your clunker. :\

yup, a variation on an old hustle "Saturday, saturday only, drag it, tow it, drive it in, any car is worth $2500 ....one day only"

[grungex]

Funding the military is in the constitution. Wealth redistribution? Nope.

Nonsense. It's all "wealth redistribution".

It's so very tiresome when people resort to catchall phrases.