Chevy Volt [Archive] - Off Camber Forums

Sean Malone

08-11-09, 11:54 AM

I honestly hope it does very well. Crude is up today due to Chinese demand which is something like double of what is was this time last year and I only think they'll keep trending up.

Chrysler has been kinda of low key about it but one watchdog website caught this;

Chrysler has sent out a brochure which proclaims, “Watch for one of these exciting new models to appear in 2010.” Pictured are the Dodge EV, Chrysler EV, and Jeep EV – modified versions of a Lotus (Dodge Circuit), Town & Country minivan, and Jeep Wrangler.

and

John Bozzella, Senior Vice President—External Affairs and Public Policy, Chrysler LLC, proclaimed, “Without U.S. innovation and production capacity, we will simply trade batteries for oil in the pursuit of transportation energy.” China has been actively seeking and developing sources of lithium, which is unevenly distributed with large supplies discovered in Asia, South America, and North America.

The $365-million submission for the Transportation Electrification Initiative would to establish a nationwide demonstration fleet of more than 365 test-fleet vehicles, using 100 minivans and 100 Rams across a range of climates and customer types. Partnerships with utilities, governments, and companies have already been established. The remainder of the 365 vehicles would be minivans used by the Post Office in delivering mail in four regions; agreements with utilities have already been established for charging.

Another grant for up to $83 million would establish a new technology and manufacturing center in Michigan, to house development, testing and electric-drive component manufacturing, along with final assembly of electric vehicles. The complex would be functional by 2010 and produce more than 20,000 units per year.

devilmaster

08-11-09, 12:54 PM

Sean Malone

08-11-09, 01:13 PM

Is the Dodge EV supposed to be a Dodge badged Tesla? The all electric Lotus-based roadster?

As for the GM announcement, i'm not holding my breath, cause i listened to the announcement on the way to work and it started to sound like funny math mumbo-jumbo to get to the 230 number.

And honestly, wouldn't it be better to just come out with a straight number?

yeah, it's the Tesla.

What I don't care for are the executives who are giddy with 'green' press releases say things like "NO impact to the environment.":\

extramundane

08-11-09, 01:41 PM

The Dodge EV is based on the Lotus Europa. The Telsa's an electric Elise.

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2009/01/12/automobiles/autoshow/600-dodge-circuit-ev.jpg

Sean Malone

08-11-09, 01:49 PM

The Dodge EV is based on the Lotus Europa. The Telsa's an electric Elise.

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2009/01/12/automobiles/autoshow/600-dodge-circuit-ev.jpg

I got it flip flopped. Lotus electric, Telsa electric Lotus, Dodge electric Lotus Tesla...:)

opinionated ow

08-11-09, 01:50 PM

TrueBrit

08-11-09, 03:09 PM

never mind...

Ankf00

08-11-09, 05:57 PM

I honestly hope it does very well. Crude is up today due to Chinese demand which is something like double of what is was this time last year and I only think they'll keep trending up.

how is that possible when literally 50% of their factories have shut down? :confused:

The Tesla is also a hunk of s***
weren't you the one posting how Open and Vauxhall products would do well over here?

oddlycalm

08-11-09, 06:28 PM

To me the significant part of the Dodge EV story isn't the electric power, it's the first adoption of a modern low mass platform by a major player.

I still maintain that the first company to come out with an affordable full size sedan and SUV made from low mass materials will walk away with a load of orders while the rest are busy playing musical powertrains. High mass cars are a loser regardless of powertrain while low mass cars are a win with any powertrain.

oc

Don Quixote

08-11-09, 06:49 PM

I think the best thing about these cars is that the electricity magically comes out of a socket in the wall. :gomer:

devilmaster

08-11-09, 06:58 PM

The Tesla is also a hunk of s***

Yep. Thats why I was asking.... It would be a bad idea to base a high volume production car on that. And thats why I thought Dodge was doing it. ;)

Michaelhatesfans

08-11-09, 07:16 PM

Fantastic! I've always wanted a Lotus with the front end of a Dodge Neon!

:saywhat::yuck:

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2009/01/12/automobiles/autoshow/600-dodge-circuit-ev.jpg

cameraman

08-11-09, 07:24 PM

They did it no favors...
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2009/01/12/automobiles/autoshow/600-dodge-circuit-ev.jpg

http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii35/Cynops/elise.jpg

grungex

08-11-09, 07:59 PM

That's not a Europa, this is:

http://www.seriouswheels.com/pics-2007/2007-Lotus-Europa-FA-1024x768.jpg

opinionated ow

08-11-09, 08:48 PM

Yep. Thats why I was asking.... It would be a bad idea to base a high volume production car on that. And thats why I thought Dodge was doing it. ;)

Top Gear's Jeremy Clarkson reviewed the Tesla Roadster with the v1.5 transmission and described the driving experience with the exclamations "God almighty!", "Wave goodbye to the world of dial-up, and say hello to the world of broadband motoring!" and "This car is Biblically quick!" when comparing the acceleration versus a Lotus Elise. Halfway through the review, however, Clarkson simulated the experience one might get when the charge falls below the safe level but failed to explain during the programme that the failure was merely a simulation.[94] The Top Gear team calculated that their extremely demanding driving (which Top Gear is famous for putting cars through) would deplete the charge after 53 miles.

The second Tesla roadster reviewed experienced overheating and thus also reduced its power output. The car was shown parked, however, thermal limits only reduce the maximum speed by 16% to 105 mph (169 km/h).[95] Before they could bring the first Tesla roadster out, a "brake failure" had to be fixed. The "brake failure" turned out to be a blown fuse which affected the auto-assist braking feature and not the ability of the car to be stopped[citation needed]. Despite Tesla's conviction that the car was up and running in no time, Clarkson rebuffed saying "Nobody gives a flying **** how the brakes failed. Whether it was a blown fuse or not, they were still not working."[94] Clarkson ended the televised review with the phrase "What we have here then is an astonishing technical achievement. The first electric car that you might actually want to buy. It's just a shame that in the real world, it doesn't seem to work."

I've read a few reviews that suggest it is truly awful.

weren't you the one posting how Open and Vauxhall products would do well over here?
I still contend they would if GM still owned them. Ford is taking the Focus and Fiesta to the USA. They're similar products...

extramundane

08-11-09, 09:24 PM

I still contend they would if GM still owned them. Ford is taking the Focus and Fiesta to the USA. They're similar products...

Several Opel/Vauxhall products have been for sale in the US since at least 2000. I used to own one: A 2nd-gen Opel Vectra rebadged as a Saturn LS2. Biggest POS I've ever owned. Went through 3 oil pumps in 5 years and had an electrical system I'd swear was wired by Joe Lucas himself.

The later offerings are better cars, but they didn't sell any better.

Napoleon

08-13-09, 11:21 AM

. . .a modern low mass platform . . . .

What the heck is that?

opinionated ow

08-13-09, 11:34 AM

What the heck is that?

An (lightweight) Aluminium spaceframe I would guess

JLMannin

08-13-09, 11:48 AM

Several Opel/Vauxhall products have been for sale in the US since at least 2000. I used to own one: A 2nd-gen Opel Vectra rebadged as a Saturn LS2. Biggest POS I've ever owned. Went through 3 oil pumps in 5 years and had an electrical system I'd swear was wired by Joe Lucas himself.

The later offerings are better cars, but they didn't sell any better.

I hear ya on that one! I had the wagon version of that piece of dung. I had a recurring coolant leak that took three tries to fix, got a new set of tires and rebuilt rear suspension because an engineer screwed up or something.

I traded it in for a Toyota minivan two years later, and seven years later, I'm still digging myself out of the financial hole I put myself in to unload that purple lump of dung.

extramundane

08-13-09, 12:40 PM

I hear ya on that one! I had the wagon version of that piece of dung. I had a recurring coolant leak that took three tries to fix, got a new set of tires and rebuilt rear suspension because an engineer screwed up or something.

That seems to be a recurring theme. I can think of 3 fairly major and 1 minor issue that required multiple attempts to properly fix on that car. One of the majors resulted in the service manager agreeing to fix it for free and refund all charges all of the fixes on the condition that I kindly use the other Saturn dealer in town from that point on. :D

Insomniac

08-15-09, 12:26 PM

As for the GM announcement, i'm not holding my breath, cause i listened to the announcement on the way to work and it started to sound like funny math mumbo-jumbo to get to the 230 number.

And honestly, wouldn't it be better to just come out with a straight number?

I think the math works out somewhat if you use what they say is a $0.05 off peak rate (charging over night).

At least here in Kansas, residential customers have one rate regardless of the time.

National Average per KW/h is about $0.125 (I adjusted the July/August 2008 rate up somewhat)
National Average for Regular Unleaded is $2.645

So you can get 21.16 KW/h on average for a gallon of gas. ~8KW/h to charge the Volt, and a more reasonable number (in my opinion) is 106 MPG. That also assumes you do not drive more than 40 miles between charges.

Equivalency will be a pain for a simple number. Consumers will really need to figure it out themselves. They should just rate it as miles per KW/h if the car can run full electric and indicate the maximum distance or MPG when it's hybrid mode.

oddlycalm

08-15-09, 06:27 PM

What the heck is that?
Sorry, by "modern low mass platform" I meant newer than the 19th century stamped steel technology still in current use. Could be carbon or aramid composite, aluminum spaceframe, honeycomb or a combination. The Lotus Europa weighs 175 stone or 995kg in 20th century reckoning and 2193lbs. for those of us in the US.

Jeremy Clarkson tossed some barbs at the Tesla but the fact remains that in the acceleration test it beat the standard Lotus by a snore inducing margin and it lapped faster than a Porsche GT3 all while carrying 1000lb. of battery.

Low mass cars are efficient regardless of power train yet all the industry and media focus is on bleeding edge power technology rather than on developing high volume manufacturing technology for mid-20th century materials like CF and aluminum.

oc

Sean Malone

08-17-09, 04:06 PM

I'm going to buy an electric car and put two turbos on it and a wastegate or two. . :thumbup:

I've read about the concerns of going full electric from an 'enthusiasts' perspective is the overall 'feel' and 'driver input' that may be lacking. I assume that a manual transmission can still be utilized? If they drive like really fast golf carts with a 'go forward' and 'go backward' transmission I'll...well, I'll somethin'!
Oh, and no I haven't read any of the articles listed in this thread. :gomer:

Napoleon

08-17-09, 04:34 PM

I assume that a manual transmission can still be utilized?

Why would they do that? One of the pros of an electric engine is the incredible simplicity of the drive train. Basically just the engine and wheels. You don't need a gearbox. Less parts, weighs less, cheaper to make and almost impossible to break (of course the batteries are a different matter).

By the way I seem to recall reading years ago that is exactly why diesel locomotives run on electric engines. The diesel runs a generator which runs an electric engine that does not need a transmission which would be required if you wanted to hook the diesel directly up to the drive train.

Sean Malone

08-17-09, 04:45 PM

Why would they do that? One of the pros of an electric engine is the incredible simplicity of the drive train. Basically just the engine and wheels. You don't need a gearbox. Less parts, weighs less, cheaper to make and almost impossible to break (of course the batteries are a different matter).

By the way I seem to recall reading years ago that is exactly why diesel locomotives run on electric engines. The diesel runs a generator which runs an electric engine that does not need a transmission which would be required if you wanted to hook the diesel directly up to the drive train.

Just because some people like to shift and even like to use a clutch pedal. Steering and shifting with your hands, acceleration and braking and clutch operation with your feet...it's about interaction, visceral etc. Sure it's 'slower' but is it more fun?

Back to the lightweight thing...why has the auto industry dragged their feet so long in lightening their vehicles? Ride quality?
I was watching that Detroit news talk show on Speed a few years ago with the debut of the Ford Edge and the panel were in total agreement that there was no reason at all that the Edge should be pushing 4089lbs.

oddlycalm

08-17-09, 06:08 PM

Back to the lightweight thing...why has the auto industry dragged their feet so long in lightening their vehicles? Ride quality?
I was watching that Detroit news talk show on Speed a few years ago with the debut of the Ford Edge and the panel were in total agreement that there was no reason at all that the Edge should be pushing 4089lbs.
You're exactly right Sean, it's insanity. When I'd look at a 3800lb. Jeep Cherokee Ltd. then look at a 6500lb. Dodge Dakota that was nearly the same size the obvious question was how come it has to weight 2700lbs. more? :gomer:

The answer to your questions is that there has been zero pressure from the marketplace until very recently, no understanding of the manufacturing processes involved by the management teams and (now) a lack of capital, engineering capacity and time.

No doubt there is going to be initial cost going to composites but since we are pouring $ billions into these companies, and claim to want vehicles with better fuel economy, it just seems like dramatic weight savings would be a top priority. Instead it's the one thing you never hear any discussion about at all except the most general references. :rolleyes:

Hypercar concept (http://www.rmi.org/sitepages/pid191.php)

Unlike other efficient vehicles, Hypercar® vehicles don't compromise performance, comfort, or safety. Indeed, by offering extra consumer appeal and manufacturing advantages, they stand a better chance of getting on the road — and forcing old, polluting cars off — in sufficient numbers to make a big difference to the environment.

The broad US market simply isn't going to accept the kind of tiny vehicles you see in Asia. If we are going to make high mileage vehicles attractive to consumers they need to deliver comfort and utility, in other words acceptable size. The only way to take half the weight out and leave the vehicle the same size is to use lightweight materials.

The kind of incremental fuel economy achieved by the clunker program isn't much more than window dressing. In order to make a significant change, large enough to get rid of oil imports, it's going to take cars that are large enough and light.

oc

Napoleon

08-17-09, 08:08 PM

Just because some people like to shift and even like to use a clutch pedal. Steering and shifting with your hands, acceleration and braking and clutch operation with your feet...it's about interaction, visceral etc. Sure it's 'slower' but is it more fun?

Hey, you are preaching to the choir. I have never owned anything but a manual car. But even I understand an electric car doesn't need one.

Sean Malone

08-17-09, 08:47 PM

Hey, you are preaching to the choir. I have never owned anything but a manual car. But even I understand an electric car doesn't need one.

That circles back around to my overall point though nap, what is the need an an all electric high performance sports car? The obvious 'wow' factor, which grabs the headlines and attention for some company, but in the overall...it's possibly one of those answers to a question no one asked. Let's get all of the soccer moms who drive full size SUVs around town all day into something more fuel efficient before we start ripping the gear shifter out of my cold, dead hand. :)

emjaya

08-17-09, 10:58 PM

Sorry, by "modern low mass platform" I meant newer than the 19th century stamped steel technology still in current use. Could be carbon or aramid composite, aluminum spaceframe, honeycomb or a combination. The Lotus Europa weighs 175 stone or 995kg in 20th century reckoning and 2193lbs. for those of us in the US.

Jeremy Clarkson tossed some barbs at the Tesla but the fact remains that in the acceleration test it beat the standard Lotus by a snore inducing margin and it lapped faster than a Porsche GT3 all while carrying 1000lb. of battery.

Low mass cars are efficient regardless of power train yet all the industry and media focus is on bleeding edge power technology rather than on developing high volume manufacturing technology for mid-20th century materials like CF and aluminum.

oc

I'm all for new technology and all, but stamped steel cars can be repaired and steel can be melted down and reused. The new materials being used in cars are a nightmare to repair after a crash. :\

How recycleable are the boron steel/plastic laminates being used?

Indy

08-18-09, 01:11 AM

opinionated ow

08-18-09, 01:59 AM

My problem with a light car is safety. I think people realize that when two objects collide head-on, the more massive object will experience an incremental deceleration while the less massive object will have immediate reversal of direction. Which vehicle would you rather be driving?

The truth is that in many accidents the vehicle with more mass will protect its occupants far more than a smaller vehicle with all of the best safety systems, etc.

That is NOT a fact backed up by the extensive Euro NCAP testing. Two perfect examples. Mitsubish Pajero scored a 3 in Euro NCAP testing whilst a Fiat 500 got a 5 star in the same testing. Watch this clip from Top Gear:
k0kB2SqZqZ0

chop456

08-18-09, 04:56 AM

My problem with a light car is safety. I think people realize that when two objects collide head-on, the more massive object will experience an incremental deceleration while the less massive object will have immediate reversal of direction. Which vehicle would you rather be driving?

The truth is that in many accidents the vehicle with more mass will protect its occupants far more than a smaller vehicle with all of the best safety systems, etc.

True, in a lot of cases.

Small, maneuverable cars don't need stickers on the visors instructing you how not to drive them in a manner that will make you dead, either.

Napoleon

08-18-09, 03:50 PM

. . . .what is the need an an all electric high performance sports car?

Because the "early adapters" will love it. You know, people who want to prove how cool they are. I recall we had a discussion, I think it was here, shortly after the Prius came out and the subject of why was it they looked the way they did and pchall made basically the same point about that.

oddlycalm

08-18-09, 05:49 PM

I'm all for new technology and all, but stamped steel cars can be repaired and steel can be melted down and reused.

That's true, but it's a single positive amongst a long list of negatives beginning with specific gravity, corrosion, cost of parts transport, cost of finished vehicle transport, cost of tooling, length of new product cycle, etc., etc.

Boeing didn't decide to make 85% of their airframe out of CF because they like the way it smells, it is an overwhelming superior material in every measurable performance category than the metal it replaces and it can be produced with machines that have the flexibility to change part shape in minutes instead of months and without all the massive hard tooling that metal part production requires.

That is NOT a fact backed up by the extensive Euro NCAP testing. Two perfect examples. Mitsubishi Pajero scored a 3 in Euro NCAP testing whilst a Fiat 500 got a 5 star in the same testing.
Right, it's also not supported by the last 20yrs in racing chassis performance. CF cars would be considerably safer than current steel cars rather than less safe. Having to argue this point on a racing forum of all places seems ironic. Concrete walls are the ultimate in high mass immovable objects and I'd much prefer to hit one in a well designed lightweight CF vehicle than a Chevy Suburban.

oc

Gnam

08-18-09, 06:17 PM

Boeing didn't decide to make 85% of their airframe out of CF because they like the way it smells
oc

:laugh:

cameraman

08-18-09, 06:40 PM

Boeing didn't decide to make 85% of their airframe out of CF because they like the way it smells
oc

True but the disposal difference is gigantic. You have 1500 planes that will eventually need to be disposed over vs multiple millions of cars. If cars become non-recyclable the implications for the landfill requirement is huge.

Indy

08-18-09, 08:39 PM

That is NOT a fact backed up by the extensive Euro NCAP testing.

It is a fact backed up by physics. Show me which test simulates running head-on into a vehicle with twice the mass. Hint: if they did that one, it would show that the winner is the person driving the heavy car.

Drive my 5000 lb truck into a 1600 lb Smart Car. Would you want to be in the Smart Car? Auto accidents happen. "Smart" may be pretty damned dumb, you know?

Indy

08-18-09, 08:48 PM

opinionated ow

08-18-09, 09:12 PM

It is a fact backed up by physics. Show me which test simulates running head-on into a vehicle with twice the mass. Hint: if they did that one, it would show that the winner is the person driving the heavy car.

Drive my 5000 lb truck into a 1600 lb Smart Car. Would you want to be in the Smart Car? Auto accidents happen. "Smart" may be pretty damned dumb, you know?

I'd rather be in the smart. It might career further off course but as an occupant I'm going to be a damned sight safer. I take it you didn't watch the video? (and FWIW if you don't wear seatbelts that is your own problem no matter what sort of vehicle your in)

Sean Malone

08-18-09, 10:17 PM

One other thing. We could force the whole population of passenger vehicles and light trucks down to, say, 3000 lbs or less. So what does that mean to you when you are hit by Cletus in his big rig? Is anyone overly concerned about the safety of medium and heavy duty trucks to the other motorists out there? Is anyone stopping the dumb hick who drives his dump truck 2 ft from my rear bumper in morning traffic? Do you want more protection from Cletus, or less?

That's why I prefer high (or highish) performance vehicles. When I commute on my my bike (zero to 60 in 2.9sec) I NEVER find myself in bad situations with surrounding vehicles because I'm out of any situation before it happens. I guess I just answered my question to why there should be high performance all electric cars.

oddlycalm

08-19-09, 02:26 PM

True but the disposal difference is gigantic. You have 1500 planes that will eventually need to be disposed over vs multiple millions of cars. If cars become non-recyclable the implications for the landfill requirement is huge.

CF components have what, for all practicaly purposes, is an infinite service life so if the cars are of modular construction far fewer would be disposed of in the first place. The power train and running gear could be swapped out at intervals but the car itself isn't subject to corrosion or metal fatigue.

When they are disposed of they can be thermally decomposed via thermal depolymerization in an oxygen free environment. This is a one-step refinery process that allows capture and reuse of both the carbon and monomers. CF can also be milled or shredded at low temperature to reclaim the carbon fiber. This process shortens the fibers as with recycled paper. The recycled material is weaker than the original but there are many industrial applications that do not need the strength of full-length carbon fiber reinforcement. The resulting parts can be used for all manner of less demanding structural and non-structural parts.

oc

Sean Malone

08-19-09, 03:13 PM

CF components have what, for all practicaly purposes, is an infinite service life so if the cars are of modular construction far fewer would be disposed of in the first place. The power train and running gear could be swapped out at intervals but the car itself isn't subject to corrosion or metal fatigue.

When they are disposed of they can be thermally decomposed via thermal depolymerization in an oxygen free environment. This is a one-step refinery process that allows capture and reuse of both the carbon and monomers. CF can also be milled or shredded at low temperature to reclaim the carbon fiber. This process shortens the fibers as with recycled paper. The recycled material is weaker than the original but there are many industrial applications that do not need the strength of full-length carbon fiber reinforcement. The resulting parts can be used for all manner of less demanding structural and non-structural parts.

oc

Now you're just makin' stuff up! :gomer::D

dando

08-19-09, 03:24 PM

Now you're just makin' stuff up! :gomer::D

Nah...he's just the Cliff Clavin of the OC. ;) Either that or he's Wilson from Home Improvement. :)

-Kevin

Sean Malone

08-19-09, 03:30 PM

Nah...he's just the Cliff Clavin of the OC. ;) Either that or he's Wilson from Home Improvement. :)

-Kevin

Yes he is. :thumbup: Speaking of Cliff...he explains the theory of intelligence.

'Well you see, Norm, it's like this . . . A herd of buffalo can only move as fast as the slowest buffalo; and when the herd is hunted, it is the slowest and weakest ones at the back that are killed first. This natural selection is good for the herd as a whole, because the general speed and health of the whole group keeps improving by the regular killing of the weakest members. In much the same way, the human brain can only operate as fast as the slowest brain cells. Now, as we know, excessive intake of alcohol kills brain cells. But naturally, it attacks the slowest and weakest brain cells first. In this way, regular consumption of beer eliminates the weaker brain cells, making the brain a faster and more efficient machine. And that, Norm, is why you always feel smarter after a few beers.'

dando

08-19-09, 03:38 PM

Speaking of Cliff...he explains the theory of intelligence.

:rofl: :thumbup:

-Kevin

oddlycalm

08-19-09, 07:51 PM

And that, Norm, is why you always feel smarter after a few beers.
Words to live by. Just remember though, all beer is not created equal. :D

If you're done busting my balls with the Cliff/Wilson cracks you should know that the CF recycling info I posted is widely known and easily searched for. Large scale high production CF fabrication dates back nearly 30yrs so it's not like some thunderclap from the future or an obscure factoid only known by know-it-all characters on comedy shows. ;)

Some people in Ohio actually know this stuff. :D I worked for Cincinnati Milacron back in the early 80's and, among many other things, we made CF tape layers most of which were sold to Boeing's commercial aviation division back then. Milacron got run into the ground by a 3rd generation inheritor (ahem :tony:) but the product line is still going strong and Airbus is still frantically trying to play catchup to Boeing when it comes to weight/fuel consumption.

CF tape layers (http://cinmach.mag-ias.com/products/automated-composites-processing/chargertapelayers.html)

I'm still sayin' the first auto company to come out with a lightweight family size car will leap frog the rest of the market. People want cars with room and they don't have to weight two tons.

oc

dando

08-19-09, 08:06 PM

If you're done busting my balls with the Cliff/Wilson cracks you should know that the CF recycling info I posted is widely known and easily searched for. Large scale high production CF fabrication dates back nearly 30yrs so it's not like some thunderclap from the future or an obscure factoid only known by know-it-all characters on comedy shows. ;)

Hey, that there was a compliment....OK, maybe not the Clavin part. :gomer: :p I actually agree with your statements, but like Boeing and the aircraft industry, there is going to be a serious sea change required to build, maintain and recycle these vehicles. GM was headed down this path with Saturn and the plastic bodies Saturn was first launched, but failed miserably and ended up re-badging other GM cars. :shakehead Plus, I'm still waiting for Boeing to get that bird off the ground. :saywhat:

-Kevin

oddlycalm

08-19-09, 08:58 PM

OK, maybe not the Clavin part. :gomer:

Hey, that hurt. I always saw myself as more of a Stefanie Powers or Mcgyver...:gomer:

oc

dando

08-19-09, 09:15 PM

Hey, that hurt. I always saw myself as more of a Stefanie Powers or Mcgyver...:gomer:

oc

Or Maxwell Smart? :gomer: :p

</Norm>

;)

-Kevin

Sean Malone

08-19-09, 10:59 PM

Words to live by. Just remember though, all beer is not created equal. :D

If you're done busting my balls with the Cliff/Wilson cracks you should know that the CF recycling info I posted is widely known and easily searched for. Large scale high production CF fabrication dates back nearly 30yrs so it's not like some thunderclap from the future or an obscure factoid only known by know-it-all characters on comedy shows. ;)

Some people in Ohio actually know this stuff. :D I worked for Cincinnati Milacron back in the early 80's and, among many other things, we made CF tape layers most of which were sold to Boeing's commercial aviation division back then. Milacron got run into the ground by a 3rd generation inheritor (ahem :tony:) but the product line is still going strong and Airbus is still frantically trying to play catchup to Boeing when it comes to weight/fuel consumption.

CF tape layers (http://cinmach.mag-ias.com/products/automated-composites-processing/chargertapelayers.html)

I'm still sayin' the first auto company to come out with a lightweight family size car will leap frog the rest of the market. People want cars with room and they don't have to weight two tons.

oc

I agree, I think weight reduction is equally important to engine efficiently, but how do you think the ride quality would be in a four door family sedan that only weighs 2800lbs? Sure they can do good things with advanced suspensions but it's my understanding that the reason they continue to produce heavy vehicles, is for 'ride quality'.

Michaelhatesfans

08-20-09, 12:56 AM

I agree, I think weight reduction is equally important to engine efficiently, but how do you think the ride quality would be in a four door family sedan that only weighs 2800lbs?

That's where the lard assed Americans come in.:thumbup:

Michaelhatesfans

08-20-09, 12:58 AM

When I commute on my my bike (zero to 60 in 2.9sec) ...

Christ, that must be hell on your thighs.

Michaelhatesfans

08-20-09, 01:32 AM

I'm all for new technology and all, but stamped steel cars can be repaired and steel can be melted down and reused. The new materials being used in cars are a nightmare to repair after a crash. :\

Damn, I'm looking for a diagram of the old Ford GTP Probe, with the sections of the car that could be quickly removed and bolted back on... Anybody?

tllips

08-20-09, 09:51 AM

Damn, I'm looking for a diagram of the old Ford GTP Probe, with the sections of the car that could be quickly removed and bolted back on... Anybody?

I believe the Pontiac Fiero also had bolt on body panels.

Indy

08-20-09, 11:12 AM

Look closely and you will notice a Fiero in the background.
http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/7898/cardidu.jpg

dando

08-20-09, 11:20 AM

Look closely and you will notice a Fiero in the background.

Must be like one of those 3-D pictures....I don't see it. :gomer: :eek: ;)

-Kevin

Napoleon

08-20-09, 02:09 PM

Not directly or primarily about the Volt but the first stroy below is how Toyota is holding back on producing and all electric, but how a number of other manufacturers are going to follow GM's lead, and the second one is about some of Ford's efforts in the area.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/20/business/energy-environment/20electric.html?hpw

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/19/business/19auto.html?hpw

Michaelhatesfans

08-20-09, 02:15 PM

I believe the Pontiac Fiero also had bolt on body panels.

Yeah, but I'm thinking about big sections of the car that can be bolted on - like wheel wells and firewalls. Like maybe even a quarter of the car at a time.

oddlycalm

08-20-09, 03:54 PM

Yeah, but I'm thinking about big sections of the car that can be bolted on - like wheel wells and firewalls. Like maybe even a quarter of the car at a time.

Yeah, RMI (Rocky Mountain Institute) did a modular composite prototype a few years back. You could pull the power train out from under it like a skateboard and pull down the modules quickly to facilitate everything from repairs to periodic styling updates. The entire car was built with something like 14 modules that snapped together. It was a plug in hybrid like the Volt but it could have used any power train.
8D-uhKHy7mk

oc

oddlycalm

08-20-09, 04:17 PM

Not directly or primarily about the Volt but the first stroy below is how Toyota is holding back on producing an all electric

IMO Toyota is right. The time for all-electrics isn't here yet. Battery technology just isn't mature and it's a niche market. They are correct to not want to move too fast and disappoint customers in the process. The current electric bandwagon that is underway in the US may promise too much and deliver too little. Neither GM or Ford can stand a serious financial setback or a blow to consumer confidence.

That's one of the reasons why I think low mass materials are so pivotal. It's a fully mature technology today that can be deployed immediately. We can realize the gains right now, not the indefinite future, and it will allow the larger cars that Americans favor into the mix.

oc

Ankf00

08-20-09, 04:31 PM

IMO Toyota is right. The time for all-electrics isn't here yet. Battery technology just isn't mature and it's a niche market. They are correct to not want to move too fast and disappoint customers in the process. The current electric bandwagon that is underway in the US may promise too much and deliver too little. Neither GM or Ford can stand a serious financial setback or a blow to consumer confidence.

That's one of the reasons why I think low mass materials are so pivotal. It's a fully mature technology today that can be deployed immediately. We can realize the gains right now, not the indefinite future, and it will allow the larger cars that Americans favor into the mix.

oc

stop trying to make sense. we won't stand for it!

Napoleon

08-20-09, 04:50 PM

IMO Toyota is right.

I would agree. But if GM is right they are out in front of the curve and it could be a game changer for the company. I certainly wish them well.

oddlycalm

08-21-09, 02:17 PM

stop trying to make sense. we won't stand for it!
Sorry, guess I had a carbon fiber stick in my tailpipe. :gomer:

oc

Napoleon

11-20-09, 05:13 PM

The first published test drive review I have seen. (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/22/automobiles/autoreviews/22-chevy-volt.html?_r=1&partner=rss&emc=rss)

miatanut

11-20-09, 10:28 PM

My complete lack of respect for GM, and the possibility that anything remotely useful could come from them, caused me to miss out on a great thread!

I didn't know carbon fiber could be recycled, so I learned something useful. Thanks OC! And also for the little video from my hero, Amory Lovins.

And Indy, my Miata #1 died when some idiot blew a stop sign on a cross street on a State Highway I was driving on, causing me to T-Bone them. It was a Ford Taurus, so it probably weighed 1 1/2 times what my car weighed, but more importantly the crumple zones did their thing very well. I was very surprised when the airbag deployed, because the deceleration seemed so gentle. When I got out, the front of the car was two feet shorter. Maybe more. It was hard to judge with everything so far squished out of shape. My big question was what happened with a horizontal gusset that intersects the firewall, and which I had always assumed would cut my legs off at the knee if I had a serious accident. There was not even a wrinkle in the paint at the intersection. It hadn't moved. They did their FEA thing and designed it right. I had no injuries of any kind.

Would I have no injuries of any kind in a big SUV? Sure, but in the mean time I would be giving the Arabs more control over our foreign policy and reducing the quality of life of future generations.

No thanks!

devilmaster

11-21-09, 12:38 AM

I think the Volt 230 mpg math works out somewhat if you use what they say is a $0.05 off peak rate (charging over night).

At least here in Kansas, residential customers have one rate regardless of the time.

National Average per KW/h is about $0.125 (I adjusted the July/August 2008 rate up somewhat)
National Average for Regular Unleaded is $2.645

So you can get 21.16 KW/h on average for a gallon of gas. ~8KW/h to charge the Volt, and a more reasonable number (in my opinion) is 106 MPG. That also assumes you do not drive more than 40 miles between charges.

Equivalency will be a pain for a simple number. Consumers will really need to figure it out themselves. They should just rate it as miles per KW/h if the car can run full electric and indicate the maximum distance or MPG when it's hybrid mode.

you made my point for me insom.... ;) It sounds like the 230 number is a deliberate 'best case scenario' for the car.... and honestly, they should never have done that. If GM has to explain how to get 230, then they've failed in my mind. Give a number that a terrible driver would get and then when average drivers get better, you can harp on that.

Napoleon

11-21-09, 07:04 AM

At least here in Kansas, residential customers have one rate regardless of the time.

Apologies if this was covered elsewhere in this thread but pretty much no one in the US has varied rates and this points out the huge "chicken and egg" nature of most/all green technologies in that to get the full benefit other green technologies need to be implemented. In the case of electric cars one of those things is to convert power distribution to a smart grid system whereby utilities charge a price differential based on time of usage. Use power during peak generation periods and you pay a premium. Use it during the middle of the night and you get a discount. I think the assumption is that ultimately most will set their cars to charge during the night.

I don't think that invalidates your basic point though because GM is going to be selling that car in today's world not 2020.

oddlycalm

12-08-09, 06:00 PM

The thread about the Virgin Galactic roll out reminded me that it was Bert Rutan's company Scaled Composites that made the Ultralite concept car back in 1992. The four passenger car was capable of 100mpg @ 50mph or 80mpg @ 80mph. 0-6-mph was 8 seconds with a 111hp engine. The chassis weighed 420lbs. and the curb weight of the complete car was 1400lbs.

GM Ultralight (http://www.scaled.com/projects/gmcar.html)

Two complete all-graphite vehicle structures were designed, fabricated, and ready for delivery within 12 weeks after program start.

Yet here we are 17yrs later with bluderbuss iron boat anchors with the only real debate being over powertrains and fuel. If you want a light car you are stuck with a very small car.

oc

http://www.carstyling.ru/resources/concept/92gm_ultralite_21.jpg

Ankf00

12-08-09, 07:53 PM

Apologies if this was covered elsewhere in this thread but pretty much no one in the US has varied rates and this points out the huge "chicken and egg" nature of most/all green technologies in that to get the full benefit other green technologies need to be implemented.

Austin Energy's had a program deployed for a few years now. CenterPoint's (Texas) been toying with the initial phases of a pilot.

PG&E, SoCal Edison, and San Diego G&E are more than a year into their full-network implementations

oddlycalm

12-15-09, 07:20 PM

Toyota will compete with the Volt.

Prius plug-in (http://www.dailytech.com/Toyota+Officially+Launches+Plugin+Prius+Program/article17131.htm)

oc

Don Quixote

10-21-10, 10:40 AM

I am shocked, shocked I tell you!

http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAnalysis/Article/550957/201010191855/Volt-Fraud-At-Government-Motors.htm

dando

10-21-10, 01:27 PM

I am shocked, shocked I tell you!

http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAnalysis/Article/550957/201010191855/Volt-Fraud-At-Government-Motors.htm

Yer just pissed you ordered one. :gomer: ;)

-Kevin

Don Quixote

10-21-10, 01:44 PM

Yer just pissed you ordered one. :gomer: ;)

-KevinRiiiiiiight. To add to my fleet of Priuses.

oddlycalm

10-25-10, 04:53 AM

Looks like the coming electrification of cars has hit a little snag.

China halts rare earth shipments to Japan, US and Europe (http://www.dailytech.com/China+Quietly+Looks+to+Strangle+US+Japanese+EV+Pro duction/article19951.htm)

China to widen embargo of minerals (http://www.dailytech.com/China+Quietly+Looks+to+Strangle+US+Japanese+EV+Pro duction/article19951.htm)

oc

racer2c

11-16-10, 09:17 PM

Automobiles 'Car of the Year' = 2011 Chevy Volt.

Now you know it's junk.:gomer:

http://www.foxnews.com/leisure/2010/11/16/chevy-volt-named-motor-trend-car-year/

Methanolandbrats

11-16-10, 10:47 PM

Do the retards who pay 40k for that POS Volt know electricity is not FREE?

cameraman

11-17-10, 02:47 AM

Do the retards who pay 40k for that POS Volt know electricity is not FREE?

Doesn't matter, don't care. If a large percentage of the folks in the Salt Lake Valley drove electric cars it would greatly help with the severe air pollution problems we have here. The smog gets trapped in the valley, the majority of the electricity comes from outside of the valley. Even if all you accomplish is moving the point source of the air pollution out of the valleys you would increase the air quality for the majority of the population of the state.

oddlycalm

11-17-10, 04:41 AM

Even if all you accomplish is moving the point source of the air pollution out of the valleys you would increase the air quality for the majority of the population of the state.
Same for all the Western interior states from Canada to Mexico. Denver, Phoenix, SLC, Boise, it's a long list of cities in basins that hold on to the pollution.

oc

racer2c

11-17-10, 10:09 AM

Doesn't matter, don't care. If a large percentage of the folks in the Salt Lake Valley drove electric cars it would greatly help with the severe air pollution problems we have here. The smog gets trapped in the valley, the majority of the electricity comes from outside of the valley. Even if all you accomplish is moving the point source of the air pollution out of the valleys you would increase the air quality for the majority of the population of the state.

It's always been a curiosity to me that if the air quality of a metro area is so poor that mandatory minimum mpg/electric/hybrid/bicycle/hamster power ect hasn't been implemented.

Methanolandbrats

11-17-10, 01:58 PM

I was talking about cost for fuel, not pollution. The Volt will be a bit cheaper to run than small displacement gas or a diesel, but the upfront cost is so huge the payback will take forever.

As far as pollution goes, I'm not sure having a city full of Volts to reduce local ozone and NOX and shifting the pollution to an area downwind of a coal plant is much of an improvement. And if it's a NG powerplant, the electricity cost will much higher than coal and fewer Volt owners will be happy when they get their monthly utility bill.

chop456

11-18-10, 03:36 AM

You don't plug it into YOUR house. Duh. :gomer:

I saw a gaggle of them in Chicago tonight.

oddlycalm

11-18-10, 04:58 AM

I was talking about cost for fuel, not pollution. The Volt will be a bit cheaper to run than small displacement gas or a diesel, but the upfront cost is so huge the payback will take forever.
For some it may be more expensive to run. Different tools for different jobs. Folks like us that take trips that rarely go more than 20 blocks would like it but would be unlikely to want to pay BMW 3 series prices for a Cheby. Those that do a lot of driving would be better off with a modern diesel and they could buy a lot of fuel with the $10-$15K they saved.

oc

chop456

11-18-10, 05:01 AM

And I have. I'm practically a thousandaire. :tony:

pchall

11-18-10, 08:00 AM

Do the retards who pay 40k for that POS Volt know electricity is not FREE?

Those same buyers will probably never figure out that the carbon footprint of their car starts with the mining, drilling, smelting, and cracking of the materials used to make the car, then bypasses the tail pipe to the nearest coal or gas fired generating station. Nothing is pollution free about such a reVolting vehicle. Some day I might consider a small urban vehicle with electric drive with limited range battery storage capacity, but I'd want it to come with a very small multifuel capable turbine powering the electric drive.

gjc2

11-18-10, 08:35 AM

What happens to the Volt’s 40 mile electric range when the heat or air conditioning is used?
Since the heat is a by-product of the combustion how is heat produced when the car is running on electricity?
A conventional car’s air conditioner compressor is powered by the engine, when The Volt is in electric mode an electric motor will have to be used.
What about all the other electric accessories? Will the electric range be reduced when you use the headlights, if you play the radio loud, if you open and close the power windows a lot, etc.???

Don Quixote

11-18-10, 08:51 AM

All good questions. Last I heard, the thing was really a hybrid, and not an electric car. Wake me up when they come clean with the truth.

Methanolandbrats

11-18-10, 08:59 AM

You don't plug it into YOUR house. Duh. :gomer:

I saw a gaggle of them in Chicago tonight.

ONce again you striked the nail between the eyes.......get a long extender cord and plug it into your neighbhors house :gomer:

opinionated ow

11-18-10, 09:09 AM

gjc2

11-18-10, 09:13 AM

All good questions. Last I heard, the thing was really a hybrid, and not an electric car.

The very high fuel mileage estimates are based on claim that the Volt will travel the first forty miles of any trip on battery only.

Indy

11-18-10, 10:10 AM

I think you guys are being a bit rough on the Volt. You have to start somewhere, and at least they are taking the next step forward and beating Toyota and others to the punch.

Not that I can afford one. :gomer:

extramundane

11-18-10, 10:49 AM

All good questions. Last I heard, the thing was really a hybrid, and not an electric car. Wake me up when they come clean with the truth.

The gasoline engine only clutches in at speeds over 70MPH, so it's not a true hybrid as such.

Don Quixote

11-18-10, 10:58 AM

The gasoline engine only clutches in at speeds over 70MPH, so it's not a true hybrid as such.But they initially claimed that the gasoline engine was only to charge the battery. Then it turns out the gasoline engine is in the drivetrain. Sounds like a hybrid to me.

dando

11-18-10, 11:13 AM

I think you guys are being a bit rough on the Volt. You have to start somewhere, and at least they are taking the next step forward and beating Toyota and others to the punch.

No worries...soon our new owners won't sell us the rare materials needed to make the Volt, etc. USA, pwned by China. :saywhat:

-Kevin

extramundane

11-18-10, 11:39 AM

But they initially claimed that the gasoline engine was only to charge the battery. Then it turns out the gasoline engine is in the drivetrain. Sounds like a hybrid to me.

It's somewhere between a true hybrid and what the initial claims were.

For the majority of the time, for the majority of the people who buy one, the gas engine won't be in the drivetrain. Deceptive, yes, but not a huge deal as far as I'm concerned. The bigger takeaway to me is that GM is actually building a small(ish) car that's not a total POS.

BTW, The Great Jonny Lieberman's Volt Review (http://blogs.motortrend.com/127-mpg-this-volt-story-must-be-told-2724.html)- a true car guy driving the Volt like a true car guy- is worth a read if you want to cut through the GM PR-speak vs. GM Hater's Club rhetoric.

At the end of the journey, we’d covered more than 120 miles. City, hard-core mountain roads and freeway — we even took the Volt up to its limited top speed of 101 mph. Well, the speedo indicated 102 mph, but we were pointed downhill. Let me also mention that we had the A/C on because it was 100 degrees out. Factoring in the mountainous part of our romp, where Frank and I acted like utter hooligans and neglected (on purpose) to put the Volt in Mountain Mode, we still averaged 74.6 miles per gallon over 122 miles. Sure, that’s less than the 126.7 mpg we got driving the car from the office to home, but it’s still pretty dang good.