View Full Version : Saving money the FIA way
oddlycalm
10-13-09, 02:43 PM
Idea: Ban refueling during races and save many $ thousands by not having to transport fuel rigs.
Result: Spend many $ millions designing new cars to handle 3x the fuel.
:tony:
oc
Michaelhatesfans
10-13-09, 02:50 PM
And if they keep dicking around with the sport, soon they'll be able to save money by not spending so much on grandstands.:thumbup:
They design new cars every year anyway.
I won't miss refueling at all. It did nothing but take away from the drivers skills, craft, input on track.
Introducing mandatory refueling was at the starting end of the Bernie and Max let's spice up the show crap that has done more than anything else to wreck F1 over the last (almost) two decades.
Saying goodbye to bad regulations and Max isn't hard to do from here at all.
Sean Malone
10-13-09, 03:16 PM
How about one engine supplier, one chassis supplier, a couple of gurl drivers...works in the IRL!!! Oh wait...never mind. :D
Idea: Ban refueling during races and save many $ thousands by not having to transport fuel rigs.
Result: Spend many $ millions designing new cars to handle 3x the fuel.
:tony:
oc
It's like GM exec. mgmt. is providing FIA with all of its strategy consulting needs. :D
miatanut
10-13-09, 06:43 PM
Why not let teams choose, and have tires that will go the whole distance (but are completely shot at the end), and tires that require three stints, and the teams can decide how they want to slice it?
Anyone know offhand how much fuel they will have to carry?
stroker
10-13-09, 11:52 PM
I've never liked pit stops in F1.
opinionated ow
10-14-09, 12:46 AM
Anyone know offhand how much fuel they will have to carry?
I think about 200kg of fuel
datachicane
10-14-09, 02:42 AM
Wanna reduce speeds, cut costs, showcase skillful driving, and "improve the show"?
Simple. One set of tires per weekend. It'd take a compound just this side of a billiard ball to survive. That last nth of a percent of power won't matter much if you can't get it to the ground, and those last few ounces of downforce won't help if they shred your tires. There'd be drifting through the corners like we haven't seen since Clark and Hill.
Just my two cents.
Rogue Leader
10-14-09, 07:45 AM
Wanna reduce speeds, cut costs, showcase skillful driving, and "improve the show"?
Simple. One set of tires per weekend. It'd take a compound just this side of a billiard ball to survive. That last nth of a percent of power won't matter much if you can't get it to the ground, and those last few ounces of downforce won't help if they shred your tires. There'd be drifting through the corners like we haven't seen since Clark and Hill.
Just my two cents.
and then we would see crap like what happened to Raikkonen at the 'ring during 2005, when his tire failed on the last lap. Clark and Hill didn't have braking systems that could lock a tire like that, nor downforce that put as much pressure on the tires. Not safe, no thanks...
and then we would see crap like what happened to Raikkonen at the 'ring during 2005, when his tire failed on the last lap. Clark and Hill didn't have braking systems that could lock a tire like that, nor downforce that put as much pressure on the tires. Not safe, no thanks...
However, wouldn't the car be engineered for the tires? Including braking and downforce. Neither could be at the extremes we have today if the tires were to last as DC suggests. A real world advantage of his suggestion might be the creation of new tire technology that offered high performance and exceptional tread life rather than high grip/short life race tires that have little in common with 99% of all the tires in use today.
Sean Malone
10-14-09, 10:06 AM
Today's drivers could do a single lap on rock hard tires. Suzuka x16.
datachicane
10-14-09, 11:29 AM
Clark and Hill didn't have braking systems that could lock a tire like that, nor downforce that put as much pressure on the tires.
That's just the point. A tire-killing braking system or aero setup would carry no competitive advantage, nor would tire-shredding horsepower. I hypothesize that engineering that reduces the odds of winning will prove unpopular.
datachicane
10-14-09, 11:31 AM
Today's drivers could do a single lap on rock hard tires. Suzuka x16.
Some could, some couldn't. Sebastien Loeb>Woobens.
cameraman
10-14-09, 12:03 PM
There'd be drifting through the corners like we haven't seen since Clark and Hill.
Drifting would kill the tires. All you would do is greatly slow things down.
miatanut
10-14-09, 01:57 PM
and then we would see crap like what happened to Raikkonen at the 'ring during 2005, when his tire failed on the last lap. Clark and Hill didn't have braking systems that could lock a tire like that, nor downforce that put as much pressure on the tires. Not safe, no thanks...
I take it you're not a LeMans fan, where they triple and sometimes quadruple stint the tires, running over 300 miles on them. High downforce, high speed (much faster than F1) cars.
I don't see any safety issue.
Sean Malone
10-14-09, 02:21 PM
I take it you're not a LeMans fan, where they triple and sometimes quadruple stint the tires, running over 300 miles on them. High downforce, high speed (much faster than F1) cars.
I don't see any safety issue.
Oh god...you're going to trot out the tired Le Mans vs F1 debate?
oddlycalm
10-14-09, 02:55 PM
The biggest challenge will be brakes with 180kg of fuel on board. They are going with the same 28mm rotor width so at places like Montreal brake some brake failures are almost guaranteed. Seems like a bit of a safety issue.
One tire change is required by the sporting regs otherwise Bridgestone is saying the tire could last the entire race, so we are talking a much harder tire than currently used. If that proves to be the case than the tire change can be used to deal with traffic issues strategically rather than for tire wear.
oc
miatanut
10-14-09, 03:35 PM
Oh god...you're going to trot out the tired Le Mans vs F1 debate?
True. LeMans cars are maglev while F1 cars are using old fashioned wheeled technology, so it's not a fair comparison in a discussion about tires. :D
If the cars are too heavy, the tires are too hard, and the brakes are too small the obvious solution is to make the races shorter. :gomer:
cameraman
10-14-09, 04:18 PM
I take it you're not a LeMans fan, where they triple and sometimes quadruple stint the tires, running over 300 miles on them. High downforce, high speed (much faster than F1) cars.
I don't see any safety issue.
The suggestion was one set for the entire weekend.
Not even ALMS does that.
miatanut
10-14-09, 04:30 PM
The suggestion was one set for the entire weekend.
Not even ALMS does that.
entire weekend = 300 miles < LeMans quadruple stint.
nissan gtp
10-14-09, 05:11 PM
Why not let teams choose, and have tires that will go the whole distance (but are completely shot at the end), and tires that require three stints, and the teams can decide how they want to slice it?
because there will be only 1 optimal combination, and the teams will quickly converge on it -- potentially with a different combination at every track, which gets expensive.
cameraman
10-14-09, 06:55 PM
I take it you're not a LeMans fan, where they triple and sometimes quadruple stint the tires, running over 300 miles on them.
You are also neglecting the reasons that allow for running triple stints are the one gun rule and the ban on tire warmers. You really think anyone would even double stint a tire at Le Mans if they could change all four with hot tires in less than 5 seconds?
miatanut
10-14-09, 07:49 PM
You are also neglecting the reasons that allow for running triple stints are the one gun rule and the ban on tire warmers. You really think anyone would even double stint a tire at Le Mans if they could change all four with hot tires in less than 5 seconds?
In know the reasons for triple and quadruple stints at LeMans, and I thought it was a great change.
The argument was whether a modern, top-level racing car would be a disaster waiting to happen trying to get 300 miles out of a set of tires. LeMans has already answered that question.
Sean Malone
10-14-09, 09:24 PM
In know the reasons for triple and quadruple stints at LeMans, and I thought it was a great change.
The argument was whether a modern, top-level racing car would be a disaster waiting to happen trying to get 300 miles out of a set of tires. LeMans has already answered that question.
Apples and oranges.
miatanut
10-14-09, 11:45 PM
Apples and oranges.
How so?
LeMans cars are heavier = harder on tires.
LeMans cars produce more downforce = harder on tires.
LeMans cars go a lot faster = harder on tires.
F1 cars spend more time cornering at maximum G's than LeMans cars = harder on tires.
Three out of four major factors, the LeMans cars are more demanding than the F1 cars. The last one is important. It would require additional engineering on the part of the tire companies, but the proposal for a single set of tires for an F1 weekend is far from being preposterous, as some dismissed it to be. It's not far different from what tires do at LeMans as of this last summer.
opinionated ow
10-15-09, 03:03 AM
How so?
LeMans cars are heavier = harder on tires.
LeMans cars produce more downforce = harder on tires.
LeMans cars go a lot faster = harder on tires.
F1 cars spend more time cornering at maximum G's than LeMans cars = harder on tires.
Three out of four major factors, the LeMans cars are more demanding than the F1 cars. The last one is important. It would require additional engineering on the part of the tire companies, but the proposal for a single set of tires for an F1 weekend is far from being preposterous, as some dismissed it to be. It's not far different from what tires do at LeMans as of this last summer.
Have a read of what you just wrote. :shakehead
miatanut
10-15-09, 12:56 PM
Maybe I'm not understanding the debate.
I thought the debate was whether Bridgestone could design a tire that could go a full weekend (300 miles), and do it safely.
A tire that could go a whole weekend would have to go 50% longer than the design brief they are currently working under.
The design brief the Bridgestone engineers are currently working under is to design a tire that can run 100% longer than the tires are running this year (one stop strategy), or even more (two or three stop strategies).
The step to a full weekend from the brief they are working under now, is roughly half the step they are currently making.
Maybe the debate is whether the Bridgestone engineers could design such a tire and have it weigh not one gram more than the current tire.
In that case, I would have to agree. It is highly unlikely they could achieve that.
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