Ft. Hood [Archive] - Off Camber Forums

extramundane

11-06-09, 09:25 AM

OK, I'll be the politically incorrect a-hole and say what many people are thinking.
What the hell was the Army thinking allowing a young Muslim man to serve on an American military base? He walked around the base in standard Muslim garb, this didn't send up any freakin' red flags?

He was an American citizen, born in Virginia. I wasn't aware that the military was allowed to discriminate on the grounds of religion.

Funny, everyday for almost 6 years I've worked within 10 feet of a fairly devout Muslim (American citizen too, go figure) who hasn't tried to kill me yet. I guess it's just a matter of time, right?

nrc

11-06-09, 10:30 AM

You can only be the "good guys" if you uphold your values, which in this case includes tolerance for other cultures and religions.

It's early yet, but this sounds like a case of a disgruntled employee going on a shooting spree. Was his Muslim religion the reason or was it just that he wanted out of the military and that was a pretext?

Sean Malone

11-06-09, 11:41 AM

Hasan is an Army psychiatrist who worked with returning soldiers. A cousin of his claims he was “mortified” that he was to be deployed to Afghanistan. Others in his family claim he was severely harassed because of his religion. So here is an officer who is being harassed?
I hope that religion will not be the leading topic in this case. The growing double standard is concerning to me.
For a psychiatrist to reach the breaking point that lead to extreme violence….wow. I hate to start pointing fingers at everyone, including religious persecution, other than at the shooter.

TrueBrit

11-06-09, 12:42 PM

He was "mortified" that he was going to be deployed? Hello? Buddy, you're in the ARMY..the REAL army, not the bell-ringing starvation army, don't want to kill people in combat? I have an idea, don't join the freaking Army..And I don't care how much stick he got for his religion, it doesn't excuse going around topping 13 innocent individuals...

The unfortunate fall-out from this will be yet more anti-muslim rhetoric from the nutters, and life for his fellow muslim soldiers just got a thousand times harder..

In otherwords an all-around cluster-**** for everyone involved...

And why is it that these 'disgruntled' arseholes just can't top themselves and leave the rest of us to live our lives...:mad:

Sean Malone

11-06-09, 01:39 PM

oddlycalm

11-06-09, 03:36 PM

It's early yet, but this sounds like a case of a disgruntled employee going on a shooting spree.
It is starting to sound that way. He made a deal with the army to get his medical ticket and couldn't live up to it. Being Muslim certainly wouldn't enhance his situation but he was in a box of his own making.

Yet another self-absorbed male takes a crowd of bystanders with him on his suicide ride. :thumdown:

BTW, I hesitate to point this out but this town as seen worse.
1991 Luby's killings (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/first100/1001214.html)

oc

High Sided

11-06-09, 03:51 PM

he is still alive, 4 bullets didn't kill him. :thumdown::thumdown:

nrc

11-06-09, 04:01 PM

he is still alive, 4 bullets didn't kill him. :thumdown::thumdown:

Sounds like they need to double-up on the firing squad.

RaceGrrl

11-06-09, 09:13 PM

Sounds like they need to double-up on the firing squad.

Nah.. let him heal from these wounds and then put him in front of a real firing squad and do it for real.

Ankf00

11-06-09, 11:14 PM

Military hasn't executed anyone since 1961, plus there's that other ****stick from Iraq who fragged his superiors in their tent via grenade while they were sleeping in the morning or some such...

The hero cop who ended the bloody rampage at Fort Hood had been directing traffic moments before she confronted the gunman and pumped four bullets into him despite being shot herself.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/2009/11/06/2009-11-06_police_sgt_kimberly_munley_credited_with_ending _fort_hood_gunman_maj_nidal_malik.html

"There's an old saying that you should marry a girl from Texas because no matter how tough things get, she's tougher." - Dan Rather <---no s***. :eek:

Ankf00

11-06-09, 11:18 PM

1st hand account in Mother JOnes

I was walking into the medical SRP building when he started firing (he never made it to the main SRP building....the media accounts are understandably pretty off right now). He was calmly and methodically shooting everyone. Like every non-deployed military post, no one was armed. For the first time in my life I really wish I had a weapon. I don't know how to explain what it feels like to have someone shoot at you while you're unarmed. He missed me but didn't miss a lot of others. Just pure random luck. It's a very compressed area, thus the numbers.

I saw a lot of heroism. So many more would have died if this wasn't an Army post. We're almost all CLS trained and it made a huge difference. Cause the EMTs didn't get there for almost an hour (they thought there was a second shooter). I just can't believe one of our own shot us. When I saw his ID card I couldn't believe it. After he shot the female police officer he was fumbling his reload and I saw the other police officer around the corner and yelled at him to come shoot the shooter. He did. Then I used my belt as a tourniquet on the female officer.

I hate to tell you this but in the course of the day it became clear that it was another Akbar incident.1 (Once they convinced them the blood drenching my clothes wasn't mine I spent the day being interviewed by the alphabet.) Akbar again. God help us. He was very planned. I counted three full mags around him (I secured his weapon for a while). Found out later that his car was filled with more ammo.

This was premeditated. This wasn't VBC again. That guy snapped, not this one. He was so damn calm when he was shooting. Methodical. And he was moving tactically. The Army really is diverse and we really do love all our own. We signed up to be shot at but not at home. Not unarmed. No one should ever see what the inside of that medical SRP building looked like. I suppose that's what VA Tech looked like. Except they didn't have soldiers coming from everywhere to tourniquet and compress and talk to the wounded while rounds are still coming out.

No one touched him...the shooter that is...other than to treat him. Though I told the medic (and I'm not proud of this) that was giving him plasma that there better not be anyone else who needed it because he should be the last one to be treated. But I had just finished holding a soldier who was critical (I counted three entry wounds) and talking to him about his children.... If the shooter had a grievance he should have taken it out on those responsible; he wasn't shooting people he knew (media reports to the contrary). He was just shooting anybody who happened to be present for SRP medical processing, mainly lower enlisted.

But please, no one use this politically! The Army is not "broken", PTSD doesn't turn people into killers, most Muslims aren't evil, and whether we should stay or go in Afghanistan has nothing to do with this. I'm babbling...sorry.
http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2009/11/fort-hood-letter

Indy

11-07-09, 01:33 AM

Jesus Christ, I am just sick over this. Young people serving our country, and already risking their lives to do so, and then they are subjected to this horror. :(

Indy

11-07-09, 01:40 AM

And one more thing. I normally would speak out against discrimination in any form, but let's face a fact. Islam, which could be described to be less of a religion than a very structured and specific way of life, would and does quite naturally appeal to the sort of deranged individuals who have the innate need to attempt to make reality conform to their twisted visions.

I am not saying all Muslims are bad, but I am saying that an authoritarian system will attract enthusiastic devotees for who authoritarianism is attractive. And that is going to encourage some lunatics like this guy.

EDIT: Tried to better focus the thought. Sorry if that invalidates your argument below, RaceGrrl.

RaceGrrl

11-07-09, 02:20 AM

That's not a valid argument about Islam. There are some fundamentalist Christians who believe the same sorts of things. It's not the faith that's to blame- it's the fanatics.

Indy

11-07-09, 09:18 AM

To me, that is like saying, it is not the Nazi party to blame, we can only blame the individual Germans who participated in the war crimes. That is a cop out. We do blame organizations for the lunacy they inspire.

If a non-religious organization behaved as large parts of Islam does, we would consider it to be a worldwide organized crime ring and we would be doing our best to shut it down, seize its assets, etc.

That people can call it "religion" and then be afforded so much leeway to behave in absurd manners is simply wrong.

Sean Malone

11-07-09, 10:42 AM

opinionated ow

11-07-09, 10:58 AM

Like Denis Miller said a month ago ' if Islam is a 'religion of peace'...then Islam needs to show the world it is a religion of peace'.

It seems like Muslims continue to remind that their religion is a religion of peace. I find that somewhat strange.

Whilst I can see your point, the same could have been said about the IRA Catholics 20 years ago. Seemingly Islam has more whackjobs, but I do know some Islamic people fairly well and they've got no hatred in them.

dando

11-07-09, 10:59 AM

SteveH

11-07-09, 11:03 AM

Fringe elements. 10% make the 90% look bad. :(

-Kevin

or more likely .01% make 99.99% look bad

indyfan31

11-07-09, 11:12 AM

He was an American citizen, born in Virginia. I wasn't aware that the military was allowed to discriminate on the grounds of religion.

Funny, everyday for almost 6 years I've worked within 10 feet of a fairly devout Muslim (American citizen too, go figure) who hasn't tried to kill me yet. I guess it's just a matter of time, right?

He isn't the first American Citizen that was a devout Muslim that's killed American soldiers.

dando

11-07-09, 11:43 AM

or more likely .01% make 99.99% look bad

Well, I'm counting EARL :gomer:s, NYY fans, UM fans, etc. as well. :gomer:

-Kevin

datachicane

11-07-09, 01:40 PM

He isn't the first American Citizen that was a devout Muslim that's killed American soldiers.

If that's fair game, how about we trot out every devout Christian whackjob that's offed his family, raped little kids, killed doctors, bombed clinics, robbed banks, enslaved, stolen, beaten, exterminated, etc., etc., in the name of God?

Seriously, how hard is to see that the actions of the few do not reflect on the overwhelming majority? If you're a Christian, do you really see your faith reflected or tainted by the likes of these? Do you really feel you need to justify their actions? Just as nearly all Christians find those things abhorrent, so do nearly all Muslims. All this crap about Islam being an inherently violent faith makes me sick. Yep, there's plenty of that stuff in the Koran, but have you read the Bible lately? Two sides of the same sword.

nrc

11-07-09, 02:28 PM

Whilst I can see your point, the same could have been said about the IRA Catholics 20 years ago. Seemingly Islam has more whackjobs, but I do know some Islamic people fairly well and they've got no hatred in them.

Or the Spanish Inquisition, or the crusades, or people who murder abortion doctors. The problem is not the religion, the problem is that some of its proponents either feel disenfranchised and are using it as an excuse to lash out, or they are simply stuck in the middle ages culturally. Aside from the just plain whack-jobs, of course.

I think it's fair to say that the Muslims who do practice Islam as a religion of peace haven't done a good job of speaking out to their peers on the topic. But the whack-jobs have shown that they're just has apt to kill Muslims as anyone, so it's not a cause to be taken on lightly.

Sean Malone

11-07-09, 03:05 PM

If that's fair game, how about we trot out every devout Christian whackjob that's offed his family, raped little kids, killed doctors, bombed clinics, robbed banks, enslaved, stolen, beaten, exterminated, etc., etc., in the name of God?

Seriously, how hard is to see that the actions of the few do not reflect on the overwhelming majority? If you're a Christian, do you really see your faith reflected or tainted by the likes of these? Do you really feel you need to justify their actions? Just as nearly all Christians find those things abhorrent, so do nearly all Muslims. All this crap about Islam being an inherently violent faith makes me sick. Yep, there's plenty of that stuff in the Koran, but have you read the Bible lately? Two sides of the same sword.

For one, the historic argument is moot...it's 2009...not 1509. Second I'm trying to think of a Buddhist, Hindu, Jewish, Christian nation that are lead by extreme fundamentalists who oppress their citizens and buck the international community based on religious prejudice. Hmmm, struggling....lil' help?

One large point of contention and controversy is the interpretation of the notorious "verse of the sword" that Bin Laden infamously quotes from to justify jihad.
A good start would be shutting down the radical madrasah's in so called 'peaceful' nations'.

datachicane

11-07-09, 04:15 PM

For one, the historic argument is moot...it's 2009...not 1509.

That stuff happens today, not 1509. How about we smear all Christians 'cuz Garrido sez God told him to do it? :saywhat:

Second I'm trying to think of a Buddhist, Hindu, Jewish, Christian nation that are lead by extreme fundamentalists who oppress their citizens and buck the international community based on religious prejudice. Hmmm, struggling....lil' help?

Israel? The Baltic states? China? Have you been following the goings on with the right-wing Hindu fundamentalists in India?<tap tap> Is this thing on?

My Grandfather built and ran several schools for girls in Colombia in the 1940s, and for his efforts fought bombings and death threats from the clergy. One of his crews actually caught a parish priest with a box full of dynamite in a basement, only to see him released to finish the job the next night. All of this fiery Christian goodness came to a head in the Bogotazo, wherein my young father disappeared for a week while my grandparents searched through the bodies laid out on block after block of downtown sidewalk. My Grandfather would be the first to pick a fight with anyone who claimed that sort of behavior was in any way representative of Catholicism.

Hell, I could tell you some stories that would make your skin crawl about being a non-Mormon kid growing up in the boonies in Utah.

One large point of contention and controversy is the interpretation of the notorious "verse of the sword" that Bin Laden infamously quotes from to justify jihad.
A good start would be shutting down the radical madrasah's in so called 'peaceful' nations'.

No doubt, that would be a good start. While we're at it, how 'bout we clean all of the Christian Identity types? One man's madrasah is another man's Couer d'Alene.

It's not that radical Islam is full of good guys, it's that we're so blinded to the parallels in our own culture that we're willing to broadbrush them while pointing to Islam as the problem. I guess as long as it fits our own unexamined preconceptions it's all good, right?

I'm all for hate, but hypocrisy sucks.

Gnam

11-07-09, 05:43 PM

Death is too small a punishment for this traitor.

The first terrorist attack on this country in eight years and people are still trying to sort out the "good" muslims from the "bad" ones. What a waste of time. Claiming Islam is a religion of peace is just as stupid as saying all muslims are dangerous because neither are true.

Our enemy is not a religion. If that were true, it would be easy to identify and kill enough of them to force a surrender. Hell, this war would have been over September 12, 2001.

Our enemy is a cult that believes all the problems in the muslim world, especially a lack of geopolitical power and respect, stem from the fact that all muslims aren't devout enough. To remedy this situation they intend to remove tempation from their brothers' path by destroying the western world and imposing their will on all muslims.

This cult is just as much a danger to Egyptians, Persians, and Palestinians as it is to Americans. They will kill anyone, regardless of faith or nationality, who disagrees with them let alone tries to oppose them.

Flushing them out is a bitch because the leadership of most middle east nations has made a deal with these jerks to stay in power. The cult is allowed to operate freely as long as they don't cause problems at home or threaten the legitmacy of the ruling party. They also hide their involvement with the cult, living "normal" lives with wives and children and mixing with non-believers to appear moderate.

So how do you find and kill these mofo's? We can sink to their level and treat all muslims as our enemy, thereby changing our country into something none of us want. **** that.

We'll win this war how we always do, by taking the fight to their homeland and making it impossilbe for them to exist. In 1944, that meant burning down both Japan and Germany. In Iraq and Afghanistan, it means protecting the population while standing up democratic governments where the people rule, not the cult. When the cult tries to protect it's turf, they will expose themselves and we can cut them down and burn them out.

[/soapbox]

Sean Malone

11-07-09, 07:17 PM

That stuff happens today, not 1509. How about we smear all Christians 'cuz Garrido sez God told him to do it? :saywhat:

Israel? The Baltic states? China? Have you been following the goings on with the right-wing Hindu fundamentalists in India?<tap tap> Is this thing on?

My Grandfather built and ran several schools for girls in Colombia in the 1940s, and for his efforts fought bombings and death threats from the clergy. One of his crews actually caught a parish priest with a box full of dynamite in a basement, only to see him released to finish the job the next night. All of this fiery Christian goodness came to a head in the Bogotazo, wherein my young father disappeared for a week while my grandparents searched through the bodies laid out on block after block of downtown sidewalk. My Grandfather would be the first to pick a fight with anyone who claimed that sort of behavior was in any way representative of Catholicism.

Hell, I could tell you some stories that would make your skin crawl about being a non-Mormon kid growing up in the boonies in Utah.

No doubt, that would be a good start. While we're at it, how 'bout we clean all of the Christian Identity types? One man's madrasah is another man's Couer d'Alene.

It's not that radical Islam is full of good guys, it's that we're so blinded to the parallels in our own culture that we're willing to broadbrush them while pointing to Islam as the problem. I guess as long as it fits our own unexamined preconceptions it's all good, right?

I'm all for hate, but hypocrisy sucks.

Wow, you're dripping with anti-Cristianism. You should seek help. I Seriously hope you don't have guns. Seriously. Remind me again how many Christians have flown planes into sky scrappers?

I see you conveniently mention the 'verse of the sword'. How does the 'verse of the sword' compare to the peaceful teaching of Budda, Hinduism and Jesus?

Since when is Communism a religion? You're mixing your facts and blurring the reality. Who are we at WAR with in Afghanistan?

Indy

11-07-09, 07:39 PM

When "Christian" fundamentalists shoot doctors or bomb clinics or whatever, I have no problem denouncing them, and, in fact, I will take it upon myself to say that these people are NOT Christians. They are directly defying the words of Jesus Christ. Christianity and their beliefs are mutually exclusive.

In Islam, on the other hand, I see the problem as so widespread that even those in power are afraid to condemn it. And as far as I can tell what they are doing IS consistent with their religion. Perhaps I am wrong about that, but no one has convinced me so. So the question becomes, if we respect everyone's religion, and millions believe in a religion of death and destruction, are we to allow ourselves to be destroyed in order to see ourselves as tolerant?

At the base of all this is the real problem: that most of the people in the world believe in and base their morals upon fantastical myths. That is what we call religion, and it can provide a wonderful wealth of wisdom in its symbolism and allegory, but for those who believe these stories as written, it is a minefield of potentially dangerous behaviors. And that is the real problem with Islam, in my opinion -- their myths lead them to be more violent than ours do.

datachicane

11-07-09, 07:49 PM

Wow, you're dripping with anti-Cristianism. You should seek help. I Seriously hope you don't have guns. Seriously. Remind me again how many Christians have flown planes into sky scrappers?

I see you conveniently mention the 'verse of the sword'. How does the 'verse of the sword' compare to the peaceful teaching of Budda, Hinduism and Jesus?

Since when is Communism a religion? You're mixing your facts and blurring the reality. Who are we at WAR with in Afghanistan?

:saywhat:
What's with the non-sequitors? Where the hell did I say anything about Communism? Dripping with 'anti-Cristianism'? Do you know what the hell you're talking about? I come from a very old and prominent New England church family, so prominent that you'd recognize the name. My father was the first in countless generations not to enter the clergy, and even HE went to seminary. I took my minor in religion. Anti-Christian? Far from it, just anti-stupid. You do realize you're allowed to be Christian and still read books, right?

Mixing facts and blurring reality? You're the one who brought up the verse of the sword, buddy, not me. Asking how many Christians have flown airplanes into buildings is exactly as idiotic as asking how many Muslims have have blown up federal courthouses. To claim that somehow Islam is inherently more violent than Christianity requires a very narrow reading of events indeed.

Violence is violence, and evil is evil, and no amount of wrapping it in the flag of God will cover it up. Just as the acts of evil men do not make the Bible evil, the acts of evil men do not make the Koran evil. Yes, as a non-Muslim it's hard not to choke a bit on the whole 'religion of peace' thing, but it's no more ridiculous than when Christians make the same claim, as you do here.

Don't post while drinking.

Indy

11-07-09, 07:54 PM

datachicane, I respect your point of view, and I want to believe what you are saying, but it just doesn't make sense given what is going on around us. It always feels good to believe in "all men are created equal" idealism, but in fact all men are not created equal, and neither are religions. There are substantive differences between Islam and Christianity, and Christianity is NOT the one promoting violent terrorism, brutality to women, etc.

datachicane

11-07-09, 08:24 PM

There are substantive differences between Islam and Christianity, and Christianity is NOT the one promoting violent terrorism, brutality to women, etc.

Historically that has not been true. The problem is in the interpretation, not in the document itself, whether we're talking about the Bible or the Koran. There's not an iota of difference between the folks in Couer d'Alene I mentioned earlier and the Taliban, other than the source document they reference.

Frankly, from a liturgical standpoint, Christianity, Islam, and Judaism are the same faith, three branches of the same tree, with more variation existing between sects within a given branch than between the branches themselves. An average Sunni and Lutheran would have more in common than a Lutheran and Jehovah's Witness, Mormon, or (God forbid) Christianity Identity type.

Don't misunderstand me- I think this guy is a disgusting piece of work, and I'm all for defending against threats, etc., etc., but the faulty reasoning that leads us to conclude that it's acceptable to persecute all Muslims for the actions of a tiny minority is what I take issue with. Given our current situation in the Middle East, it would be no different than if we had come to the conclusion during WWII that our real problem was with Europeans, thereby concluding that we should target them all. We need the help of the Islamic world in order to succeed in the Middle East, not to mention to achieve peace in Israel, etc., etc., and we do little to aid our cause by alienating our allies out of ignorance and provinicialism.

Sean Malone

11-07-09, 08:39 PM

:saywhat:
What's with the non-sequitors? Where the hell did I say anything about Communism? Dripping with 'anti-Cristianism'? Do you know what the hell you're talking about? I come from a very old and prominent New England church family, so prominent that you'd recognize the name. My father was the first in countless generations not to enter the clergy, and even HE went to seminary. I took my minor in religion. Anti-Christian? Far from it, just anti-stupid. You do realize you're allowed to be Christian and still read books, right?

Mixing facts and blurring reality? You're the one who brought up the verse of the sword, buddy, not me. Asking how many Christians have flown airplanes into buildings is exactly as idiotic as asking how many Muslims have have blown up federal courthouses. To claim that somehow Islam is inherently more violent than Christianity requires a very narrow reading of events indeed.

Violence is violence, and evil is evil, and no amount of wrapping it in the flag of God will cover it up. Just as the acts of evil men do not make the Bible evil, the acts of evil men do not make the Koran evil. Yes, as a non-Muslim it's hard not to choke a bit on the whole 'religion of peace' thing, but it's no more ridiculous than when Christians make the same claim, as you do here.

Don't post while drinking.

You made a blanket statement using China as an example. I so assume you were referring to political oppression. Be more clear.

You're comparing the OK City bombing to 911 and calling me an idiot! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

But yet again you sidestep the questions.

There are 25 billion muslims in this world who are peace loving and denounce the radicals that have kidnapped their religion. But the fact remains there are state nations of radical muslims...something that there isn't a comparison to for ANY OTHER RELIGION.

Oh, and I'm not your 'buddy', pal.

Sean Malone

11-07-09, 08:40 PM

Frankly, from a liturgical standpoint, Christianity, Islam, and Judaism are the same faith, three branches of the same tree, with more variation existing between sects within a given branch than between the branches themselves. An average Sunni and Lutheran would have more in common than a Lutheran and Jehovah's Witness, Mormon, or (God forbid) Christianity Identity type.

.

You don't know what you are talking about.

I'm tagging out of this. I've said my peace and don't need to continue down this path.

datachicane

11-07-09, 08:46 PM

You don't know what you are talking about.

I've studied them all, but hey, you've got an opinion.

Good for you.

Sean Malone

11-07-09, 08:54 PM

I've studied them all, but hey, you've got an opinion.

Good for you.

And you yours, and like Indy said, I respect your difference of opinion. I learn from debate and hopefully those I debate question their own standpoint just a little. Religious debate gets hot fast.

So peace to you and thoughts and prayers for the family of those who lost their lives in this incident.

extramundane

11-07-09, 09:04 PM

There are substantive differences between Islam and Christianity, and Christianity is NOT the one promoting violent terrorism, brutality to women, etc.

Fundamentalist Islam certainly does this, but everyday, run of the mill Islam certainly doesn't. I have to wonder if people who make statements like the one above have ever actually met, let alone become close friends with, someone who practices Islam.

It's all about the marketing. You can bet your ass that if Pat Robertson thought he could fly a plane into a building and not lose the bulk of his funding, he'd be handing out free flying lessons tomorrow.

Sincerely,
The Lapsed Methodist who married into a Messianic Jewish family

nrc

11-07-09, 10:02 PM

Let's be careful with the name calling and finger pointing or I'm going to start wacking posts.

Someone commented that Christian activities of the 1500s weren't an excuse because it's 2009. Maybe here in the good old first world but if you were dropped into the middle of the areas where radical islam has it's strongest hold you would be hard pressed to prove it outside of pick-ups, cell phones, and AK-47s.

Many parts of the world haven't developed at the same pace as Europe and North America. The fact that some parts of the world are stuck in the middle ages has little to do with religion. The difference has more to do with culture, resources, and a more than a little good fortune.

cameraman

11-07-09, 10:33 PM

Christianity is NOT the one promoting violent terrorism, brutality to women, etc.Ever heard of Belfast?

Sean Malone

11-07-09, 10:56 PM

It's all about the marketing. You can bet your ass that if Pat Robertson thought he could fly a plane into a building and not lose the bulk of his funding, he'd be handing out free flying lessons tomorrow.

Hmmm. I'm not a conservative, Bible belt right winger like Robertson is, but I find it hard to imagine that he would if he could. There is a vast radical infrastructure that breeds hate and violence. Does anyone recall the celebration parades in Malaysia days after 9/11 with people displaying images of Bin Laden and chanting anti-American slogans?

nrc...I see your point but I can't help but think that the advancement of said countries has been stifled due to oppressive fundamentalists Islamic regimes.

Without doubt, Afghanistan would be a better country without the Taliban, not Islam. The discussion becomes diluted when some want to blame religion as a whole, and others blame the religion who causes the current headlines.

extramundane

11-07-09, 11:07 PM

Hmmm. I'm not a conservative, Bible belt right winger like Robertson is, but I find it hard to imagine that he would if he could. There is a vast radical infrastructure that breeds hate and violence. Does anyone recall the celebration parades in Malaysia days after 9/11 with people displaying images of Bin Laden and chanting anti-American slogans?

And if a Roberstonian/Fallwellian/Dobsinian fundie blew up, say, Planned Parenthood HQ, you'd see said fundie's compatriots similarly celebrating in the streets. Bank on it. There is indeed a vast radical infrastructure that breeds hate and violence, and it can be found within all 3 of the major western religions. I've never been so spooked in my life as I was the first time I attended one of the in-laws Messianic services. :eek:

Without doubt, Afghanistan would be a better country without the Taliban, not Islam. The discussion becomes diluted when some want to blame religion as a whole, and others blame the religion who causes the current headlines.

As the great Lewis Black once said, religion itself isn't the problem. It's religion without a sense of humor. :thumbup:

Sean Malone

11-07-09, 11:09 PM

And if a Roberstonian/Fallwellian/Dobsinian fundie blew up, say, Planned Parenthood HQ, you'd see said fundie's compatriots similarly celebrating in the streets. Bank on it. There is indeed a vast radical infrastructure that breeds hate and violence, and it can be found within all 3 of the major western religions. I've never been so spooked in my life as I was the first time I attended one of the in-laws Messianic services. :eek:

As the great Lewis Black once said, religion itself isn't the problem. It's religion without a sense of humor. :thumbup:

:thumbup:

datachicane

11-08-09, 03:57 AM

STD

11-08-09, 02:05 PM

Some good unemotionally driven and well thought points in this thread by datachicane.

Sean Malone

11-08-09, 02:38 PM

Some good unemotionally driven and well thought points in this thread by datachicane.

Love is in the air.

Indy

11-08-09, 02:41 PM

So what do we give the dumb people to replace religion so that they have something to believe in but don't get inspired to blow us up? :\

Sean Malone

11-08-09, 02:46 PM

So what do we give the dumb people to replace religion so that they have something to believe in but don't get inspired to blow us up? :\

Science!

Indy

11-08-09, 02:56 PM

Sorry, but they are too dumb for science. It is like, hard and icky.

Personally, I think we should sterilize the dumb ones and this problem will take care of itself. No stupidity and ignorance = no religion.

But, hey, that's just me. Mr. Liberal. :laugh:

TrueBrit

11-08-09, 03:10 PM

So what do we give the dumb people to replace religion so that they have something to believe in but don't get inspired to blow us up? :\

The IRL?

cameraman

11-08-09, 03:24 PM

The IRL?

I was thinking NASCAR but that works too.

Indy

11-08-09, 04:07 PM

I was thinking NASCAR

Now, Johnny, before you make that decision, I want you to think, "What would Dale Earnhardt do?"
http://img63.imageshack.us/img63/2024/dale20earnhardtthe20int.jpg

nrc

11-08-09, 07:11 PM

So what do we give the dumb people to replace religion so that they have something to believe in but don't get inspired to blow us up? :\

I imagine that some of the folks trying to blow us up would tell you that it's because we're trying to make them replace Allah with pop music and movie stars. Of course, they see it that way because they don't believe that anyone should be allowed that choice.

Indy

11-08-09, 07:35 PM

I imagine that some of the folks trying to blow us up would tell you that it's because we're trying to make them replace Allah with pop music and movie stars. Of course, they see it that way because they don't believe that anyone should be allowed that choice.

You know, sometimes I happen to catch regular Hollywood-based television and I wonder if they don't have a good point to make. Clearly, their tyrannical method of preventing all corrupting influences is not best, but our current "anything goes" market for the lowest common denominator in media is not doing us any favors. Back in the mid 20th century when there were fewer people with relatively high standards controlling our popular culture things were considerably less crude and vulgar. I suppose censorship is something best taken in moderation.

But, of course, they want to stop our influence because they know that more information to their masses will mean a steady erosion of the power of their religion. Sort of like middle ages Europe meeting the Renaissance, and the Church doing what it could to suppress it. They will lose in the end, but in the mean time we are caught with the conflict, the casualties, and the cost.

cameraman

11-08-09, 07:52 PM

Well today's reports are telling us that the Army is coming to the conclusion that this is a simple case of crazy, albeit a better trained than usual crazy. Not much different from any of the other dozens of work place mass shootings beyond the efficiency of the shooter.

11-09-09, 01:02 AM

Now, Johnny, before you make that decision, I want you to think, "What would Dale Earnhardt do?"
http://img63.imageshack.us/img63/2024/dale20earnhardtthe20int.jpg

Uh, the Church of Baby Jesus and the Latter Dale Saints might disagree with you...

Michaelhatesfans

11-09-09, 02:11 AM

I am banning myself from this thread.:)

High Sided

11-09-09, 04:34 PM

and now we get a glimpse of the truth with this radical nut job...

U.S. intelligence agencies were aware months ago that Army Major Nidal Malik Hasan was attempting to make contact with people associated with al Qaeda

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/fort-hood-shooter-contact-al-qaeda-terrorists-officials/story?id=9030873

STD

11-09-09, 04:44 PM

Sort of like middle ages Europe meeting the Renaissance, and the Church doing what it could to suppress it.

Just a quick question, where did the enlighten Europeans get the education and knowledge to undo the joyous results of the Dark Ages with science and mathmatics to name but a few of many areas of learning the Renaissance engaged?
After all, the knowledge and books of learning had been long stifled, outlawed and locked away by those that wished to consolidate their power.

The righteous few trying to control the many is nothing new. It happens here as well today.

datachicane

11-09-09, 05:38 PM

Just a quick question, where did the enlighten Europeans get the education and knowledge to undo the joyous results of the Dark Ages with science and mathmatics to name but a few of many areas of learning the Renaissance engaged?

Shhh, we're not supposed to talk about that, just like we're not supposed to talk about the French and the Revolutionary War, or think too hard about the Miracle of Dunkirk, or remember how Iran became a dictatorship, or how the defacto 60 year old civil war in Colombia began, or why Spain went from superpower to punching bag, or how Islamic states historically treated Jews and Christians (hint- not exactly an auto de fé), or where the Taliban got their funding, arms, and training (ditto Saddam Hussein), or what Mullah Omar's unacceptable condition was for turning over bin Laden, or, or, or... :(

indyfan31

11-09-09, 05:42 PM

And another glimpse. No red flags here:

His anger was noted by a classmate, who said Hasan "viewed the war against terror" as a "war against Islam."

Dr. Val Finnell, a classmate of Hasan's at the Uniformed Services University of the Health Sciences in Bethesda, attended a master's in public health program in 2007-2008. Finnell says he got to know Hasan because the group of public health students took an environmental health class together. At the end of the class, everyone had to give a presentation. Classmates wrote on topics such as dry cleaning chemicals and mold in homes, but Finnell said Hasan chose the war against terror. Finnell described Hasan as a "vociferous opponent" of the terror war. Finnell said Hasan told classmates he was "a Muslim first and an American second."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_fort_hood_shooting_suspect

As I stated earlier, someone with those opinions doesn't belong in the U.S. Military. We've been at war with one Muslim based group or another for longer than the 6 years he's been in the Service. It's not like the current "war against terror" started after he signed up.

Indy

11-09-09, 10:17 PM

Shhh, we're not supposed to talk about that, just like we're not supposed to talk about the French and the Revolutionary War, or think too hard about the Miracle of Dunkirk, or remember how Iran became a dictatorship, or how the defacto 60 year old civil war in Colombia began, or why Spain went from superpower to punching bag, or how Islamic states historically treated Jews and Christians (hint- not exactly an auto de fé), or where the Taliban got their funding, arms, and training (ditto Saddam Hussein), or what Mullah Omar's unacceptable condition was for turning over bin Laden, or, or, or... :(

Please do talk about these things. It's good to discuss them.

And what was Mullah Omar's condition?

Indy

11-09-09, 10:18 PM

Just a quick question, where did the enlighten Europeans get the education and knowledge to undo the joyous results of the Dark Ages with science and mathmatics to name but a few of many areas of learning the Renaissance engaged?
After all, the knowledge and books of learning had been long stifled, outlawed and locked away by those that wished to consolidate their power.

The righteous few trying to control the many is nothing new. It happens here as well today.

Yes, I know what you are saying, and I think it is in agreement with what I said. But we have to live with what is, now.

datachicane

11-10-09, 02:44 AM

As I stated earlier, someone with those opinions doesn't belong in the U.S. Military. We've been at war with one Muslim based group or another for longer than the 6 years he's been in the Service. It's not like the current "war against terror" started after he signed up.

One correction, Two thoughts.

I'd understood that he'd signed up just out of high school, well before 2001 (which was the year he received his Doctorate from the Uniformed Services University of the Health Sciences).

1. No argument that those opinions are out of whack for a U.S. serviceman. Are you advocating an 'opinion check' for servicemen? Without the benefit of hindsight, how would you distinguish between a Hasan or McVeigh vs. someone like a Pat Tillman?

2. There's a not-so-subtle subtext throughout this thread (and much that's been written elsewhere, as well) that something undefined should change about the way Muslims participate in U.S. society. Make no mistake, I categorically reject that conclusion, but for those who disagree- what specifically do you propose to address this perceived shortcoming?

It's easier to speak in the abstract about how 'something should be done' than to get one's hands dirty with the realities of imposing detention camps, forced deportation, felt crescents, etc., etc. on law-abiding U.S. citizens. How about Muhammed Ali? Art Blakely? John Coltrane? What exactly are you willing to do?

Well?

KLang

11-10-09, 07:56 AM

I have no idea what the right answer is but it seems to me continuing with the current PC attitude is going to simply get more US soldiers killed at home.

The signs were there that this guy was a muslim nutjob but nobody did anything. :mad:

Indy

11-10-09, 09:39 AM

It's easier to speak in the abstract about how 'something should be done' than to get one's hands dirty with the realities of imposing detention camps, forced deportation, felt crescents, etc., etc. on law-abiding U.S. citizens. How about Muhammed Ali? Art Blakely? John Coltrane? What exactly are you willing to do?

Well?

A bit of hyperbole there?

There are not any easy answers, but in my opinion we should be much more vigilant about extreme fundamentalism in general. We have warped "no state church" into "anything goes if it's religious and no one can criticize it." If Muslims insist on living in ways incompatible with modern civilization, then they need to adapt to the 21st century, go live somewhere else, or face surveillance, detention, or other intrusions. That also should go for Christians, Mormons, Jews, or whoever chooses not to accept basic Western values.

datachicane

11-10-09, 10:22 AM

Forget the excuses. If you're criticizing the current path, specifically, what do you propose? Let's see your cards.

Like I said, I predict no one will want to dirty their hands with specifics, since no one would want to live in the sort of society those specifics would create.

indyfan31

11-10-09, 01:42 PM

One correction, Two thoughts.

I'd understood that he'd signed up just out of high school, well before 2001 (which was the year he received his Doctorate from the Uniformed Services University of the Health Sciences).

1. No argument that those opinions are out of whack for a U.S. serviceman. Are you advocating an 'opinion check' for servicemen? Without the benefit of hindsight, how would you distinguish between a Hasan or McVeigh vs. someone like a Pat Tillman?
In short, YES. If you owned a meat packing plant and someone applying for a job is a member of PETA, would you hire him? Same here, Hasan's core beliefs go against the Army's. He should never have been in that position, or at the very least when his beliefs became more pointed and obvious, he should have been discharged.

It's easier to speak in the abstract about how 'something should be done' than to get one's hands dirty with the realities of imposing detention camps, forced deportation, felt crescents, etc., etc. on law-abiding U.S. citizens. How about Muhammed Ali? Art Blakely? John Coltrane? What exactly are you willing to do?
Well?
How on earth did you make the leap from selective hiring to detention camps and deportation?
Wow, talk about a bad example: Ali fought tooth and nail to stay out of the military specifically because it was against his religious beliefs. Coltrane explored several religions, including Islam. Neither of them, including Blakely, committed mass murder; bringing them into the argument is pointless.

STD

11-10-09, 02:12 PM

Yes, I know what you are saying, and I think it is in agreement with what I said. But we have to live with what is, now.

It might just be that giving the same kind of gifts in the same quality may very well be the best way to move forward, now.
The current path seems to simply create more blind hatred and an easier ride for the few that wish to consolidate or maintain their power by the age old act of fear mongering on each side of that divide.

STD

11-10-09, 02:32 PM

Shhh, we're not supposed to talk about that, just like we're not supposed to talk about the French and the Revolutionary War, or think too hard about the Miracle of Dunkirk, or remember how Iran became a dictatorship, or how the defacto 60 year old civil war in Colombia began, or why Spain went from superpower to punching bag, or how Islamic states historically treated Jews and Christians (hint- not exactly an auto de fé), or where the Taliban got their funding, arms, and training (ditto Saddam Hussein), or what Mullah Omar's unacceptable condition was for turning over bin Laden, or, or, or... :(

In the end it's not always about how we got there but how we get out. Turning a blind eye to the events in history doesn't help indeed, but no one side is just a saint or satan either. Repeating the same mistakes just continues the path a few overall want maintained.

datachicane

11-10-09, 04:09 PM

In short, YES. If you owned a meat packing plant and someone applying for a job is a member of PETA, would you hire him? Same here, Hasan's core beliefs go against the Army's. He should never have been in that position, or at the very least when his beliefs became more pointed and obvious, he should have been discharged.

Thus my question- how do you distinguish between a Hasan or McVeigh vs. a Pat Tillman? There are lots of servicemen and women who disagree with various military actions or have questionable beliefs- in a practical sense, in an environment where recruitment and retention is difficult at best, where stop-loss programs are in place, how likely is it that you'd be able to implement a simple questionnaire-based avenue out, and how effective would that be against those who want to stay in?

How on earth did you make the leap from selective hiring to detention camps and deportation?
Wow, talk about a bad example: Ali fought tooth and nail to stay out of the military specifically because it was against his religious beliefs. Coltrane explored several religions, including Islam. Neither of them, including Blakely, committed mass murder; bringing them into the argument is pointless.

I'm not talking about the military or selective hiring alone (although I'd like to hear specifics there, too)- as I stated earlier, I'm talking about a general rethinking of the role that Muslims should be permitted (for lack of a better word) to play in U.S. society. Maybe you personally don't feel that's necessary, but there's certainly plenty of folks making noise to the contrary.

If your personal preference would be to prohibit Muslims from serving in the armed forces and nothing more, that's exactly the sort of answer I'm looking for- I'm just asking you to come out and say it.

datachicane

11-10-09, 04:15 PM

In the end it's not always about how we got there but how we get out. Turning a blind eye to the events in history doesn't help indeed, but no one side is just a saint or satan either. Repeating the same mistakes just continues the path a few overall want maintained.

Insert gratuitous Santayana quote here.

It's not just about repetition or looking backwards, though- some of the more problematic folks we deal with around the world have, to their minds anyway, fairly fresh wounds ostensibly at our hands. Just because we don't recall our role in inflicting them doesn't mean that they share our amnesia. Absent that background, we cook up vapid and pointless motives for them (i.e., they hate us for our freedom :yuck:).

indyfan31

11-10-09, 08:09 PM

I'm not talking about the military or selective hiring alone (although I'd like to hear specifics there, too)- as I stated earlier, I'm talking about a general rethinking of the role that Muslims should be permitted (for lack of a better word) to play in U.S. society. Maybe you personally don't feel that's necessary, but there's certainly plenty of folks making noise to the contrary.
I am talking about selective hiring in the military, that was the premise of my original post. Somehow the thread managed to digress into discussions about jazz musician and boxers.

If your personal preference would be to prohibit Muslims from serving in the armed forces and nothing more, that's exactly the sort of answer I'm looking for- I'm just asking you to come out and say it.
Again, I think I've stated my opinion pretty clearly in the first post, although I should have said "...young, Muslim men of Middle Eastern descent."
Working on the premise that Islam is the "religion of peace" (a term used by many Muslim leaders) then a truly devout Muslim would have no reason or compulsion to join an organization who's primary mission is to KILL THE ENEMY, unless that individual's real purpose is to inflict harm to those in the organization.

nrc

11-10-09, 08:59 PM

It's not just about repetition or looking backwards, though- some of the more problematic folks we deal with around the world have, to their minds anyway, fairly fresh wounds ostensibly at our hands. Just because we don't recall our role in inflicting them doesn't mean that they share our amnesia. Absent that background, we cook up vapid and pointless motives for them (i.e., they hate us for our freedom :yuck:).

Now you've gone all the way from defending their human rights to making excuses for them and dismissing a very real and substantial part of the complex set of reasons for The Way Things Are.

Who are they blowing up in Afghanistan, Iraq, and Pakistan? It's not just the Great Satan or the Infidels. It's anyone who doesn't agree with their vision of a world ruled by Islamic fascists.

nrc

11-10-09, 09:55 PM

Again, I think I've stated my opinion pretty clearly in the first post, although I should have said "...young, Muslim men of Middle Eastern descent."
Working on the premise that Islam is the "religion of peace" (a term used by many Muslim leaders) then a truly devout Muslim would have no reason or compulsion to join an organization who's primary mission is to KILL THE ENEMY, unless that individual's real purpose is to inflict harm to those in the organization.

Sorry, but what you're proposing is just simple, unvarnished racism. The key to winning the war on Islamic facism is to uphold our values to the world and show that they are honorable and just. We don't discriminate according to race or religion. Or at least we're not supposed to.

Part of the price of freedom is accepting the risk that someone may abuse that freedom and do us harm. I would rather live with that risk than sacrifice our principles for the illusion of safety.

Obviously we shouldn't have anyone in the military who doesn't intend to serve according to the oath they've taken. That would iinclude anyone who isn't willing to defend the United States constitution against "all enemies , foreign and domestic." But that's a judgement that has to be made based on the content of each soldier's character and not their race or religion.

If we can't place our values ahead of our fear then, as the saying goes, the terrorists have won.

datachicane

11-10-09, 10:09 PM

I am talking about selective hiring in the military, that was the premise of my original post. Somehow the thread managed to digress into discussions about jazz musician and boxers.
Well, my question wasn't targeted towards you specifically, but rather towards anyone who felt that the role of Muslims in our society should be restricted. Mentioning jazz musicians and boxers was my way of (hopefully) making it more difficult to dehumanize our fellow citizens. Given the mostly <crickets> response I received, I probably should have left it out. In any case, I give you credit for having the courage to speak out.

Again, I think I've stated my opinion pretty clearly in the first post, although I should have said "...young, Muslim men of Middle Eastern descent."

That's pretty specific, which is what I asked for- thanks.

Hasan was pushing 40- what age should the cutoff be?
José Padilla was Puerto Rican, so he'd be fine, right?
Would qualifying the ban like that still lead to the results you're after?

Working on the premise that Islam is the "religion of peace" (a term used by many Muslim leaders) then a truly devout Muslim would have no reason or compulsion to join an organization who's primary mission is to KILL THE ENEMY, unless that individual's real purpose is to inflict harm to those in the organization.

Working on the premise that the Christian God is a God of love, and that Christians are bound to obey the ten commandments (which stipulate explicitly that "thou shall not kill") then a truly devout Christian would have no reason or compulsion to join an organization who's primary mission is to KILL THE ENEMY, unless that individual's real purpose is to inflict harm to those in the organization.

Pot, meet kettle.

datachicane

11-10-09, 10:25 PM

Now you've gone all the way from defending their human rights to making excuses for them and dismissing a very real and substantial part of the complex set of reasons for The Way Things Are.

Not at all. I certainly do not argue that evil is ever justifiable, nor do I deny that there are some very evil actors here indeed.

My point is that without the memory of our previous interactions with these folks, we're left with no reference points to understand our current difficulties, and no way to anticipate future problems. How could we predict, prepare for, or understand the hostility that erupted against the U.S. in Iran in 1979 without remembering our role there twenty years earlier? How could we predict, prepare for, or understand the influence of the Taliban without recognizing our hand in their creation? How could we predict, prepare for, or understand the skepticism that greets U.S. involvement in Latin America, from the 'war on drugs' to NAFTA to arguments for democracy, without understanding our role there over the last century and a half?

If the folks we're trying to interact with/negotiate with/subdue/cajole/intercede on behalf of remember, we'd sure as hell better, too.

datachicane

11-10-09, 10:39 PM

Part of the price of freedom is accepting the risk that someone may abuse that freedom and do us harm. I would rather live with that risk than sacrifice our principles for the illusion of safety.

Nicely said.

Part of the problem, IMHO, is that humans are notoriously bad at assessing risks. The vast majority of murders, mayhem, atrocities and crime in this country are committed by folks who can't be so easily pigeonholed, so we don't bother. Heck, the worst mass shooting around Ft. Hood was committed by a Christian, not a Muslim, but there was no similar cry about a Christian problem, or what Christian leaders should say or do.

The difference is we remember when the culprit is someone who isn't like us, or meets our preconceptions, and all the rest fade into the background. Besides, it's not only easier to identify (and dehumanize) someone who isn't like us, it's more comfortable, too.

99.9% of any ethnic or religious population you can point to is peaceful and law abiding, meaning that you'll need to unjustly persecute all but a tiny percentage in order to achieve even the smallest, most limited gain in safety. Can you think of a more effective way to radicalize even the most peaceful and moderate population? That is the road to a self-fulfilling prophecy.