China Pollution

[Indy]

When you buy Chinese products you support this (http://www.chinahush.com/2009/10/21/amazing-pictures-pollution-in-china/).

[oddlycalm]

The pictures match the descriptions I get from a friend who lives in Hong Kong and travels extensively in China. In some areas the cancer rate is 90% and the contamination will be around for hundreds of years. Huge areas will be uninhabitable going forward.

We don't have such a great track record here in the US either, most of us just weren't around to see the worst of it. Gold mine operators are still trying to put in massive cyanide leach fields at mines all around the western US. In other countries they just pay off the officials and go ahead and do it.

oc

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_1E42fbJdzZ4/R2s0IQiCiXI/AAAAAAAAArw/VrJbpdvy4C0/s400/mnwast.jpg

[cameraman]

If I felt so inspired I'd go look up the charts that tell you how many Utah trout you can eat from any give watershed before you are in danger of Hg poisoning. It's like one fish a month. A second thing I could hunt down would be a photograph of the half mile thick smog layer that is camped out over Salt Lake right now. Visibility is less than half a mile solely due to the air pollution. We are the proud owners of the worst air quality in the Western Hemisphere.

[STD]

How about those low prices?

[cameraman]

Hey we made the big time:rolleyes::saywhat::flame:

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2010/01/15/us/AP-US-Utah-Air-Pollution.html?_r=3

[Indy]

We don't have such a great track record here in the US either...

No, but there is a big difference between the unintended consequences of industrial expansion in an era of relative anarchy, and the sociopathic behavior of a repressive regime in the modern world. A single authority is directly responsible for this.

And, I might add, our government, influenced by U.S. corporations, has tolerated this behavior even while those same corporations were busy exporting American jobs. Competition, they say. Slave labor and no rules is more like it.

[oddlycalm]

Hey we made the big time:rolleyes::saywhat::flame:

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2010/01/15/us/AP-US-Utah-Air-Pollution.html?_r=3
Yeah, intermountain basin inversions can definitely get old, particularly when they hang around for while. Hope you get a storm soon to scour it out. Looks like next weeks storm track is aimed right at you. :thumbup:

oc

[oddlycalm]

Competition, they say. Slave labor and no rules is more like it.
Certainly can't argue with that. If the deck is stacked it's not competition at all.

oc

[Sean Malone]

I don't know...I think if you live on the Moon or in Utah or China you get what's comin' to ya. That's why I don't live in either place.

I don't know exactly what my list of 'Things Not to Care About' is comprised of right now...but caring about Chinese pollution is definitely in the bottom 3, and it's a long list.

[Gnam]

http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/1997/cryingindians.jpg

I'm sure it's fine. No government would willingly, knowingly poison it's own land and people to create wealth and power for an elite minority just so they can use that wealth and power to expand their control over other lands so they can use that wealth and power to expand their control...

That almost never happens.

[Sean Malone]

http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/1997/cryingindians.jpg

I'm sure it's fine. No government would willingly, knowingly poison it's own land and people to create wealth and power for an elite minority just so they can use that wealth and power to expand their control over other lands so they can use that wealth and power to expand their control...

That almost never happens.

Ah, good ol' 'Iron Eyes Cody'. The son of Italian immigrants who made a career portraying Native Americans. Your usage of his picture brings a whole new layer of irony to your point. :)

[cameraman]

Ah, good ol' 'Iron Eyes Cody'. The son of Italian immigrants who made a career portraying Native Americans. Your usage of his picture brings a whole new layer of irony to your point. :)

That's why they call it acting...

[Sean Malone]

That's why they call it acting...

Was that what that was?:gomer:

[dando]

Was that what that was?:gomer:

Almost brings a tear to my eye.... :gomer:

-Kevin

[Don Quixote]

http://foolery.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2008/01/24/master_thespian.jpg

[datachicane]

No, but there is a big difference between the unintended consequences of industrial expansion in an era of relative anarchy, and the sociopathic behavior of a repressive regime in the modern world. A single authority is directly responsible for this.


Ummm, care to elaborate on that big difference? Keep in mind that the vast majority of Chinese industrial expansion has taken place since the market reforms of 1978, and far from representing the "sociopathic behavior of a repressive regime", it's the plain, boring, familiar old invisible hand of Adam Smith at work here.

Let's call a spade a spade. Whatever very real crimes they may be responsible for, it wasn't the Commies that did this, but the profit motive.

[stroker]

Let's call a spade a spade. Whatever very real crimes they may be responsible for, it wasn't the Commies that did this, but the profit motive.


So what's your excuse for Russia and East Germany and all the eco-disasters yet uncleaned in Eastern Europe?

[datachicane]

So what's your excuse for Russia and East Germany and all the eco-disasters yet uncleaned in Eastern Europe?

They certainly created their share of problems, no argument, as did pre-1978 China. The resources (and thus the industrial expansion and corresponding environmental damage) they could bring to bear in a closed economy, however, are dwarfed by the resources available in a global economy.
It's purely a difference in scale.

[Sean Malone]

Communism apologist. This thread just gets better and better!!! :)

[Indy]

I am not buying the free market as a panacea. It is clear, however, that authoritarian governments are even more likely to allow environmental degradation than democratic ones. Naturally, there is a whole lot of blame to go around, but in general the more centralized the power, the greater the opportunity for corruption.

My only purpose in this thread is to point out that if you buy Chinese products, you are supporting hideous behavior.

[dando]

My only purpose in this thread is to point out that if you buy Chinese products, you are supporting hideous behavior.

Muckrakers. 'nuff said. :saywhat: And what about outsourcing to India, etc. :shakehead

-Kevin

[Sean Malone]

I am not buying the free market as a panacea. It is clear, however, that authoritarian governments are even more likely to allow environmental degradation than democratic ones. Naturally, there is a whole lot of blame to go around, but in general the more centralized the power, the greater the opportunity for corruption.

My only purpose in this thread is to point out that if you buy Chinese products, you are supporting hideous behavior.

All my junk comes from Taiwan.:gomer: I insist!

[RusH]

How are we supposed to even get on the internets with out the Chinese? everything on my desk says made in China ;)

[datachicane]

I am not buying the free market as a panacea. It is clear, however, that authoritarian governments are even more likely to allow environmental degradation than democratic ones. Naturally, there is a whole lot of blame to go around, but in general the more centralized the power, the greater the opportunity for corruption.


Authoritarian governments may be more corrupt and/or indifferent to environmental degradation, but without free markets they simply don't have access to the capital necessary for industrial expansion on this scale. That doesn't make them nice guys, just too broke to pull off damage this breathtaking. As you point out, that capital comes from us.

Without the proper regulatory bodies in place, non-corrupt, non-authoritarian governments can be powerless to prevent the same damage, as (largely past) experience in this and other democracies makes clear. Laisseiz-faire is laisseiz-faire, and it doesn't matter whether the government is run by pure, distilled evil or happy magic elves.

[STD]

good post.

[Indy]

datachicane, I understand your point, although I can not entirely endorse it.

Ultimately the Chinese are responsible for the pollution inside their borders. Period.

But, the U.S. is like the typical twenty-one year old who just got a 10 million signing bonus from a pro team - all money and no discipline. We are good at creating wealth, but we are not good at using it responsibly. It seems to me that until we overcome primitive tribalist instincts we will always resort to irresponsible behaviors.

[datachicane]

datachicane, I understand your point, although I can not entirely endorse it.

Ultimately the Chinese are responsible for the pollution inside their borders. Period.

Of course the Chinese are responsible for the pollution inside their borders. I'm not claiming otherwise.

Evil regime + closed economy = broke-ass, small scale degradation

Democratic govt. + free markets + regulatory bodies= small scale degradation

Evil regime + free markets + laissez-faire = hell breaks loose

Democratic govt. + free markets + laissez-faire = hell breaks loose

My point is this: The distinguishing factor is not whether the government is democratic or oppressive, but rather the toxic combination of an open economy and laissez-faire policies (both of which the Chinese are responsible for here). Don't kid yourself that somehow being a democracy makes our homeland immune to this sort of stuff. We're one defunding of the EPA and DEQ away from a similar fate.

I don't want to grind this thing into the ground, but blaming the many problems we see in China on Communism gives us a false sense of security as we go about dismantling our own regulatory safeguards. In our comfort and complacency, we've forgotten why a strong USDA or FDA were such good ideas to begin with.

[Indy]

Well, we have talked to the point of complete agreement (at least from me). :thumbup:

[datachicane]

I don't know...I think if you live on the Moon or in Utah or China you get what's comin' to ya. That's why I don't live in either place.

I don't know exactly what my list of 'Things Not to Care About' is comprised of right now...but caring about Chinese pollution is definitely in the bottom 3, and it's a long list.

That must mean you don't live on the West Coast, where this crap settles after it blows across the Pacific. Glad to hear you have the luxury of not caring. We'll keep it in mind the next time something happens near where you do live.

[STD]

Wait until trash pick-up is late. :rofl:

[eiregosod]

Of course the Chinese are responsible for the pollution inside their borders. I'm not claiming otherwise.

Evil regime + closed economy = broke-ass, small scale degradation

Democratic govt. + free markets + regulatory bodies= small scale degradation

Evil regime + free markets + laissez-faire = hell breaks loose

Democratic govt. + free markets + laissez-faire = hell breaks loose

My point is this: The distinguishing factor is not whether the government is democratic or oppressive, but rather the toxic combination of an open economy and laissez-faire policies (both of which the Chinese are responsible for here). Don't kid yourself that somehow being a democracy makes our homeland immune to this sort of stuff. We're one defunding of the EPA and DEQ away from a similar fate.

I don't want to grind this thing into the ground, but blaming the many problems we see in China on Communism gives us a false sense of security as we go about dismantling our own regulatory safeguards. In our comfort and complacency, we've forgotten why a strong USDA or FDA were such good ideas to begin with.

reminds me of "Hard Times" by Dickens

[Sean Malone]

That must mean you don't live on the West Coast, where this crap settles after it blows across the Pacific. Glad to hear you have the luxury of not caring. We'll keep it in mind the next time something happens near where you do live.

So you're the 'voice of the West Coast'? Gee, without your caring how will I ever survive? :)

But 'things' are happening everywhere, not just the West Coast. Lets see, homelessness, murder, rape, gangs, corrupt politicians, earthquakes, tornado's, floods, drought, worse than normal winters, civil unrest, tyrant dictators, forest fires, terrorism, landslides, plane crashes, train crashes, car crashes, underage binge drinking, infectious disease, cancer, bear attacks, war, man made environmental issues, etc.

My moral compass refuses to allow my conscience not to 'care' but it doesn't mean I'm moving to communist China to help clean up toxic rivers. Actually, this post has caused me to increase my level of 'caring'...is it helping? what if I hold my breath, or better yet write on an autoracing message board how much I care?

[Indy]

Actually, Sean, there are things you can do. Like stop buying Chinese products. Stop shopping at Wallyworld. Communicate with your legislators that you will be making your voting decisions based on their attitudes toward globalism and coporate responsibility. There are more active roles you can take in changing things, but these three I mention are simple and take almost no effort, just a little bit of willpower.

[nrc]

My point is this: The distinguishing factor is not whether the government is democratic or oppressive, but rather the toxic combination of an open economy and laissez-faire policies (both of which the Chinese are responsible for here). Don't kid yourself that somehow being a democracy makes our homeland immune to this sort of stuff. We're one defunding of the EPA and DEQ away from a similar fate.

I don't think there's any question that the fact that we're fueling Chinese industrial expansion adds to the problem. But the Soviet Union accomplished much the same thing with a largely closed economy. The fact that they had no source of capital only further encouraged cutting corners trying to meet their own needs.

And I don't buy that we're at risk of this level of large scale degradation. It's the fact that the people have the ability to demand that we have a decent environment that prevents that.

It seems odd to me that we should be more outraged by China's pollution than by their human rights record.

[STD]

There is a direct correlation between the pollution and their human rights abuses.
I don't think that total picture was being overlooked at all.

We here have already seen the results but seem to forgot the same as in Love Canal and Times Beach to name a very few. Many Super fund clean up sites here are a direct product of the long term laissez-faire spoken of, plus the long term uncaring need for profit that drove many corporate citizens to decided to pass on the long known poisons and expense of the clean up to the rest of us with ill intent at the very least.

[Sean Malone]

There is a direct correlation between the pollution and their human rights abuses.
.

How?

[Sean Malone]

Actually, Sean, there are things you can do. Like stop buying Chinese products. Stop shopping at Wallyworld. Communicate with your legislators that you will be making your voting decisions based on their attitudes toward globalism and coporate responsibility. There are more active roles you can take in changing things, but these three I mention are simple and take almost no effort, just a little bit of willpower.

Those of us in the 'lap of luxury' would never step foot in a Wal-Mart! the only Chinese product that we would ever consider are Ming dynasty vases. All of our products are hand made in Italy. Communicate with my legislators? I own the legislators!!

[dando]

Stop shopping at Wallyworld. Communicate with your legislators that you will be making your voting decisions based on their attitudes toward globalism and coporate responsibility. There are more active roles you can take in changing things, but these three I mention are simple and take almost no effort, just a little bit of willpower.

:rofl:

Srsly? Like Wal-Mart is the only retailer buying from China? What about Target, Kohl's, Sears/KMart, etc.? Legislators listenting to constituents? Holy crap that's rich! :laugh: I wish you luck, yo. :)

-Kevin

[Indy]

It seems odd to me that we should be more outraged by China's pollution than by their human rights record.

I am not more outraged by the pollution. But when you bring up the human rights stuff, for some reason it becomes a political debate. Both are absolutely dreadful.

[Indy]

How?

I assume he was referring to a country content to be run by sociopaths will demonstrate this sort of behavior in different ways. The commies were in trouble until they got the bread and circuses thing going, now it's all good. Totalitarianism works. :shakehead

[Indy]

:rofl:

Srsly? Like Wal-Mart is the only retailer buying from China? What about Target, Kohl's, Sears/KMart, etc.? Legislators listenting to constituents? Holy crap that's rich! :laugh: I wish you luck, yo. :)

-Kevin

Yeah, I know, but they are at the center of the whole thing. Personally, I avoid Walmart because buying cheap from China is what they are all about, but I also go out of my way to avoid Chinese products elsewhere. It is not always easy, and sometimes impossible.

[SteveH]

We're one defunding of the EPA and DEQ away from a similar fate.

I'm not sure about this. Being GREEN® is so damned trendy these days that any US company accused of excessive pollution would catch all kinds of hell from the public but also and more importantly from the press and their competition.

There's no excuse for what China is allowing - on several fronts. Remember melamine in infant formula? Substandard dry wall? Defective tire valves? The list is lengthy. As long as they are the low bidder, they'll unfortunately get the business regardless of pollution, regardless of quality control, regardless of human rights. And just as unfortunate, if we boycott they will continue to supply the rest of the world.

nuke 'em ;)

[eiregosod]

someone's lost his mind:

http://market-ticker.denninger.net/archives/1871-To-All-US-Citizens-Time-to-BOYCOTT-China.html

[chop456]

There's no excuse for what China is allowing - on several fronts. Remember melamine in infant formula? Substandard dry wall? Defective tire valves? The list is lengthy.

Cartilage in my General Tso's Chicken is what really chaps my ass. :thumdown:

[mapguy]

:rofl:

Srsly? Like Wal-Mart is the only retailer buying from China? What about Target, Kohl's, Sears/KMart, etc.?

Precisely. I work for Lowe's and a lot of the stuff we sell is made in China. The junk anyway. Want a decent faucet that is made in the USA? We have VERY few on the shelf.

[Indy]

someone's lost his mind:

http://market-ticker.denninger.net/archives/1871-To-All-US-Citizens-Time-to-BOYCOTT-China.html

And your problem with what he says is what exactly?

[STD]

How?

You cannot be serious. :rofl:

[STD]

Yeah, I know, but they are at the center of the whole thing. Personally, I avoid Walmart because buying cheap from China is what they are all about, but I also go out of my way to avoid Chinese products elsewhere. It is not always easy, and sometimes impossible.

Remember Walmart was all about "Buy American" :shakehead

[STD]

And your problem with what he says is what exactly?

Hard to put the genie back in the bottle when looking at the fact that China pretty well owns us?
Someone in the last decade took out a lot of large sum loans from them. Hurting them would directly hurt us.

SteveH may have the only answer but that of course would be a mutual vaporization.

[Napoleon]

[QUOTE=mapguy;269307]Precisely. I work for Lowe's and a lot of the stuff we sell is made in China.[QUOTE]


I renovated my house 3-4 years ago and I was stunned how much of the material came from China. The prefab wood door jambs/wood panel door combination were even from China.

[Andrew Longman]

[QUOTE=mapguy;269307]Precisely. I work for Lowe's and a lot of the stuff we sell is made in China. [QUOTE]


I renovated my house 3-4 years ago and I was stunned how much of the material came from China. The prefab wood door jambs/wood panel door combination were even from China.

I wouldn't be shocked if the wood actially came from the US or Canada and the jam was assembled in China.

[Napoleon]

I wouldn't be shocked if the wood actially came from the US or Canada and the jam was assembled in China.

Me either. That is why I was so initially shocked. I can not imagine that they are shipping products made of their own wood here. Still, after seeing all the light fixtures and door hardware coming from China only to then see that also come from there, all I could think of was the $100K plus I spent on that going in large part overseas.

[Don Quixote]

I wouldn't be shocked if the wood actially came from the US or Canada and the jam was assembled in China. True. In Oregon you can watch the trains loaded with timber headed north to Canada, and trains headed south to Cali with the finished products of plywood and chipboard. Apparently it's too expensive to make in the US.

[oddlycalm]

True. In Oregon you can watch the trains loaded with timber headed north to Canada, and trains headed south to Cali with the finished products of plywood and chipboard. Apparently it's too expensive to make in the US.

More often it's just that we no longer have much executive talent that actually knows how to run manufacturing companies. Most manufacturing (as opposed to assembly) is heavily automated and costs are very similar no matter where it gets done.

How lame are US CEO's? I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the Google blow up. I got this message from a long time business acquaintance in Hong Kong.
"The part that makes the situation with Google so diabolical is that it was the perfect place to spy on the rest of the world. They had an inside seat the whole time. Hard to believe Americans are so naive that they never imagined anything like this could happen.

Those of us who have lived here for any length of time and done business here all know what to expect. Spying and piracy are the normal state of business here. There is no such thing as company confidential here. The Chinese strip mine American companies from the inside over here all the time. That's why the US State Department got involved. It is an extremely serious problem that has far reaching consequences...."

[Ankf00]

Cartilage in my General Tso's Chicken is what really chaps my ass. :thumdown:

this.:mad:

[Ankf00]

oh and not to dive into the political quibbling above, but... :D

China may call itself communist, but it lives what Mussolini titled "Corporatism." ie: Fascism.

[datachicane]

Yep.

[Sean Malone]

oh and not to dive into the political quibbling above, but... :D

China may call itself communist, but it lives what Mussolini titled "Corporatism." ie: Fascism.

Ah, makes all the difference! :gomer:

[STD]

, but it lives what Mussolini titled "Corporatism." ie: Fascism.

More than just a double dip of that going around lately.

[JLMannin]

Ummm, care to elaborate on that big difference? Keep in mind that the vast majority of Chinese industrial expansion has taken place since the market reforms of 1978, and far from representing the "sociopathic behavior of a repressive regime", it's the plain, boring, familiar old invisible hand of Adam Smith at work here.

Let's call a spade a spade. Whatever very real crimes they may be responsible for, it wasn't the Commies that did this, but the profit motive.

So the Communist Party does not control China?

[JLMannin]

Authoritarian governments may be more corrupt and/or indifferent to environmental degradation, but without free markets they simply don't have access to the capital necessary for industrial expansion on this scale. That doesn't make them nice guys, just too broke to pull off damage this breathtaking. As you point out, that capital comes from us.

Yet the Soviet Block was able to create environmental disasters without the infusion of western free market capitalist $$

[JLMannin]

There's no excuse for what China is allowing - on several fronts. Remember melamine in infant formula? Substandard dry wall? Defective tire valves? The list is lengthy. As long as they are the low bidder, they'll unfortunately get the business regardless of pollution, regardless of quality control, regardless of human rights. And just as unfortunate, if we boycott they will continue to supply the rest of the world.

nuke 'em ;)

Two more items in the lengthly list are antifreeze in toothpaste and substituting over-sulphated condrointin sulfate for heparin.

[Indy]

antifreeze in toothpaste

So what was their explanation for that? :saywhat:

[cameraman]

So what was their explanation for that? :saywhat:

Somebody provided antifreeze instead of what was ordered. They took the money & ran. And just because something is called a Communist Party does not make them real communists. Just like the whole antifreeze deal.

[Ankf00]

And just because something is called a Communist Party does not make them real communists. Just like the whole antifreeze deal.

That's what I keep telling my friends but they keep telling me I'm "so white"... :confused:

[nrc]

"Hello, we are selling communist revolutions.."
zduKIF5Mo0k

[JLMannin]

So what was their explanation for that? :saywhat:

Ethylene glycol tastes sweet and is much cheaper than the real toothpaste sweeteners like sorbitol.

[TravelGal]

From E-Turbo News: (re Pollution in Hong Kong)

Residents awoke on Monday to a pall of choking murk, borne by easterly winds along the coast, that caused already high pollution readings to jump six-fold to a record high.

Readings around the city were pushed over the top of the 500-point air pollution index and into previously uncharted territory. The previous highest recorded pollution level was 202, in July 2008.

Doctors said there was little people could do to protect themselves because ordinary surgical masks could not block the particles. Even staying indoors with the air conditioning on was no guarantee of safety.

The quality of the air in Hong Kong has become a controversial social issue in recent years, tarnishing the city’s reputation as a financial hub compared with greener rivals such as Singapore. It has also affected the health of many citizens.

The Hong Kong authorities have tried to clean up emissions from vehicles and power stations, but they are unable to control pollution blowing in from China. Much of the smog in recent years has been blamed on pollutants emitted by the tens of thousands of factories in southern China’s manufacturing hub.

The worst sandstorms have been reported around Beijing, where the air quality index reached the most serious level as the city’s sky turned orange on Saturday. A mixture of sand and pollution blowing in from the Gobi Desert to the north dumped about 150,000 tonnes of yellow dust on the capital at the weekend.

Resident and Tourists were warned to stay indoors.

China's expanding deserts now cover one-third of the country because of overgrazing, deforestation, urban sprawl and drought. The shifting sands have led to a sharp increase in sandstorms – the grit from which can travel as far as the western United States.

[oddlycalm]

Yesterday I got a first hand report from a business friend that lives in HK. Grim stuff.

oc

[Methanolandbrats]

My friend's shop has a lift sold by an American company, but built in China. Everytime I stand under that thing, I say a little prayer the the Chinese Welding Gods. :eek:

[TrueBrit]

Remember Walmart was all about "Buy American" :shakehead

At least that's what all of their 'Made In China' American flags seem to be saying..:\

[TrueBrit]

oh and not to dive into the political quibbling above, but... :D

China may call itself communist, but it lives what Mussolini titled "Corporatism." ie: Fascism.

Winner, winner, General Tsao's Chicken Dinner...

[STD]

At least that's what all of their 'Made In China' American flags seem to be saying..:\

I'll have you know they didn't force American companies to go abroad for cheaper labor until they had squeezed the useable life out of it here. :laugh:

Chairman Sam had a plan... stage two is popping up all over China.

On a side note, their "dust bowl" is a sad repeat of history by man made climate change.

[TrueBrit]

On a side note, their "dust bowl" is a sad repeat of history by man made climate change.

Oh now you went and did it...the deniers will be here any second to dispute your faux-science...;)