Unintended Acceleration 2.0 [Archive]

NismoZ

01-27-10, 12:48 PM

Are there any similarities between the current Toyota troubles and the Audi problems a few years back? (it WAS Audi?) Was there REALLY a mechanical/design flaw or was it just sloppy Americans with huge floor mats and big feet? Are all of those 2.3 mil. Toyo recalls made in America or are some imported? I owned '71, '74, & '78 Celica STs & GTs, an '83 Supra, an '87 GTS-LB (my fav.) and experienced 25 YEARS of trouble free motoring. Any word on what's up?:confused: I've gone Honda, Nissan and Mazda since '97 (all Japanese built btw) and just changed the oil! This recall is HUGE and not just in numbers. Worse than exploding Pintos and flipping Corvairs. Bigger than Chevy engines in Buicks and crappy tires on Fords. Be interesting to see the lawsuits pile up now.

JLMannin

01-27-10, 12:51 PM

Do the vehicles affected by the recall have throttle linkages, or are these fly-by-wire throttles?

SteveH

01-27-10, 12:55 PM

I'm calling for a Toyota win at Daytona, now.

just sayin' :gomer:

TRDfan

01-27-10, 01:27 PM

There is an accelerator pedal problem.

The recall is on North American produced vehicles with a North American produced part (CTS), Japan built vehicles, and those built with Japanese parts (Denso) are fine.

Work is pretty wonderful today.

On days like today I'm glad my responsibility (brain damage) level has dropped in the last couple years. The heat I'm taking is very minimal.

It will be quite interesting to see how this all plays out.

Andrew Longman

01-27-10, 01:58 PM

As TRD said, the article I read said it was a mechanical part (linkage?), not electronic and the fault was attributed to wear and humidity. The part has been redesigned/respeced with new material since the problem first showed up in 07, but that didn't apparently fix it.

That initial failure to find the cause probably had a lot to do, PR wise, with their decision to go over the top on this recall.

As for the Audi 5000 which started having acceleration problems shortly after being introduced in 1978, the cause was never proven. 60 Minutes faked a "recreation" of the problem and it helped destroy the model and almost the brand in the US, but ultimately the most likely cause was driver error/peddle confusion.

Michaelhatesfans

01-27-10, 04:46 PM

As for the Audi 5000 which started having acceleration problems shortly after being introduced in 1978, the cause was never proven. 60 Minutes faked a "recreation" of the problem and it helped destroy the model and almost the brand in the US, but ultimately the most likely cause was driver error/peddle confusion.

I was thinking of that last night. The flattened garbage cans and holes in garage doors were pretty funny until people started getting hurt, regardless of who or what was at fault. I'm pretty sure that you're right that it was never proven.

However, I'll always remember when On Track had an article about the Group 44 Audi dominating a race with the title, "Intended Acceleration." I'm sure Audi cringed, but it made me want to buy an Audi and pretend that I was Hans Stuck.:gomer:

Elmo T

01-27-10, 04:55 PM

oddlycalm

01-27-10, 06:42 PM

No offense to you old folks, but 9 times out of 10, grandmom/grandpop insists that the car "just took off by itself" as they stomped on the brake. :shakehead

True, and I'm guessing people that drove for years with those mile wide brake pedals (more like a treadle) on US cars with automatics in the mid-century era are ill equipped to handle a car that has a normal sized pedal. Muscle memory makes it easy enough to fat foot it if you're not focused.

oc

NismoZ

01-27-10, 09:33 PM

trish

01-27-10, 09:54 PM

I've had an accelaration problem with my 99 civic. It seemed to occur most often in the summer. I'd start up the car, it would rev very loudly. Put it in drive and as soon as I would take my foot of the brake it would take off. They had to adjust the throttle control linkage two times but it still happens.

nrc

01-27-10, 10:26 PM

"...recall is on North American produced vehicles."...that's the answer I was expecting. What a sad commentary. Just heard on the evening news "the part is produced for Toyota by a supplier in Elkhart Indiana." Is that the CTS you referenced? Do they make major components for other mfgrs?

Keep in mind that one of the high profile cases that brought the problem to light was a Lexus ES350. They originally did a recall to replace floor mats based on that incident. I'm afraid they may be guessing at this point.

In the August incident near San Diego, the fiery crash of a 2009 Lexus ES 350 killed California Highway Patrol Officer Mark Saylor, 45, and three members of his family on State Route 125 in Santee. The runaway car was traveling at more than 120 mph when it hit a sport utility vehicle, launched off an embankment, rolled several times and burst into flames. One of the family members called police about a minute before the crash to report the vehicle had no brakes and the accelerator was stuck. The call ended with someone telling people in the car to hold on and pray, followed by a woman's scream.http://www.lemonauto.com/complaints/lexus/lexus_is.htm

Of course the question is how do you go for a full minute unable to stop a car or even get it slowed down. Any vehicle's brakes can overcome its engine if everything is working properly. I suppose it's possible that if the brakes were already hot then trying to overcome the engine could cause them to fade completely.

Indy

01-27-10, 10:31 PM

Maybe this is a stupid question, but couldn't you just turn the ignition off or shift to neutral and brake?

extramundane

01-27-10, 10:48 PM

Maybe this is a stupid question, but couldn't you just turn the ignition off or shift to neutral and brake?

Who has time to hang up the phone and stop watching the satnav long enough to do something like that?

JLMannin

01-27-10, 10:52 PM

Maybe this is a stupid question, but couldn't you just turn the ignition off or shift to neutral and brake?

It's hard to think clearly while panicking.

Indy

01-28-10, 12:06 AM

It's hard to think clearly while panicking.

For a full minute? Sounds like Darwinism to me. Maybe if we built all cars to self destruct if the driver is stupid we could avoid Idiocracy.

Gnam

01-28-10, 02:34 AM

:rofl: @ extramundane

Wasn't there a case of emergency vehicles surging forward when the lights & sirens were on? Don't remember if they ever solved that one.

edit: found an article about it: http://www.iaevt.org/pdf/tailightwarning.pdf

The case was from 2000 in Minneapolis. A common after market device added to police cruisers that made the brake lights flash prevented the shift-lock from working properly. This made it possible to shift the transmission into gear without applying the brakes and led to sudden acceleration accidents.

chop456

01-28-10, 02:58 AM

Of course the question is how do you go for a full minute unable to stop a car or even get it slowed down. Any vehicle's brakes can overcome its engine if everything is working properly. I suppose it's possible that if the brakes were already hot then trying to overcome the engine could cause them to fade completely.

It happened to me last Summer as a passenger in a friend's Santa Fe. We did what you're supposed to do and not surprisingly, all four of us are still alive.

Coincidentally, it happened on a bridge by TRDfan's crib.

nrc

01-28-10, 03:13 AM

Just started reading the new C&D and they have a small piece on this. They tested a Camry and a couple of other cars. A Camry with throttle held wide open takes only about 100 feet more to stop from 70mph than with throttle at idle.

Of course, I'm sure there are cases where something like this could cause an accident just because of the time that it takes to recognize and react properly.

chop456

01-28-10, 03:17 AM

Also, I don't know if this is unique to the diesel or manual transmission models, but the drive-by-wire throttle on my VW cuts off fueling if you depress the brake and accelerator at the same time.

nrc

01-28-10, 03:26 AM

Also, I don't know if this is unique to the diesel or manual transmission models, but the drive-by-wire throttle on my VW cuts off fueling if you depress the brake and accelerator at the same time.

They mention in the C&D article that this is becoming more common but that the Camry doesn't currently do that.

chop456

01-28-10, 03:48 AM

I bet it will soon. :D

JLMannin

01-28-10, 07:03 AM

For a full minute? Sounds like Darwinism to me. Maybe if we built all cars to self destruct if the driver is stupid we could avoid Idiocracy.

If you are ever in a situation where you panic and you do not do what is logical, I will still have compassion for you, because I am such a swell guy.

Indy

01-28-10, 09:50 AM

^^^ Thanks JL. Will you stand up at my funeral and wax poetic about the tragedy that brainless idiots like me are sometimes too good for this world? :laugh:

NismoZ

01-28-10, 10:52 AM

Here's a couple of possibly related "fallout" connections: Ford posts a $2.7 billion yearly profit and projects another profitable '010. Not a direct connection because of the timing but it gives Toyota customers in America an alternative if they want to join a "winner." And Government Motors has just announced a $1,000 rebate and 0% financing to Toyota owners! Awakening a sleeping giant? Watch out down the road, GM! Oh, and Toyota has said they have identified the problem and a fix is in the works. What? Shipping in all the parts from Japan following a mysterious fire in the Elkhart Ind. plant?

Andrew Longman

01-28-10, 11:49 AM

Sounds like this one is the real thing for once.

Every year, we respond to a handfull of "vehicle into a building" calls. In every case I've seen, there is a burnout mark right up to the window of the store - and even into the store. :rolleyes:

No offense to you old folks, but 9 times out of 10, grandmom/grandpop insists that the car "just took off by itself" as they stomped on the brake. :shakehead

Dead on, but there was a case just by us where the driver got the car to Muller Toyota up in Clinton while the acceleration was happening.

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/toyota-driver-abc-news-videos-helped-save-life/story?id=9618954&page=2

This was written up again in the Express Times this morning, though with less hyperventilating.

Seems for real.

Gangrel

01-28-10, 01:21 PM

Dead on, but there was a case just by us where the driver got the car to Muller Toyota up in Clinton while the acceleration was happening.

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/toyota-driver-abc-news-videos-helped-save-life/story?id=9618954&page=2

This was written up again in the Express Times this morning, though with less hyperventilating.

Seems for real.

Still have never seen an unintended exceleration that couldn't be solved by pushing the shift lever to "N" and/or turning the key counter-clockwise. Panic is no excuse when you should be well aware of your failsafes...

Sean Malone

01-28-10, 02:27 PM

Still have never seen an unintended exceleration that couldn't be solved by pushing the shift lever to "N" and/or turning the key counter-clockwise. Panic is no excuse when you should be well aware of your failsafes...

I tend to agree. I recently saw a report about 4 people who were killed because their car (forgot what brand) kept accelerating while on the highway. The driver called 911 saying the accelerator was stuck and begged for help while the car accelerated over 100 mph until the inevitable. I can't help but think that it could have been avoided.

extramundane

01-28-10, 02:40 PM

I tend to agree. I recently saw a report about 4 people who were killed because their car (forgot what brand) kept accelerating while on the highway. The driver called 911 saying the accelerator was stuck and begged for help while the car accelerated over 100 mph until the inevitable. I can't help but think that it could have been avoided.

I believe that was the Lexus case which sparked this whole Toyota situation.

JLMannin

01-28-10, 06:04 PM

^^^ Thanks JL. Will you stand up at my funeral and wax poetic about the tragedy that brainless idiots like me are sometimes too good for this world? :laugh:

Sure, right after I piss in the urn holding your ashes.

Sean Malone

01-29-10, 12:09 PM

http://www.toyoland.com/news/?cat=10

Toyota sent an email to its employees last night, claiming to have found a repair for its sticking accelerator pedals. The fix was submitted to the U.S. government for approval.

chop456

01-29-10, 01:19 PM

I hope it's a 3-foot long chain with a handle on the other end.

Andrew Longman

01-29-10, 01:19 PM

I hope it's a 3-foot long chain with a handle on the other end.

That sounds like a NASCAR safety fix.

Michaelhatesfans

01-29-10, 04:09 PM

I hope it's a 3-foot long chain with a handle on the other end.

Ejector seats.:thumbup:

Gangrel

01-29-10, 04:22 PM

I believe that was the Lexus case which sparked this whole Toyota situation.

You are correct. I remember seeing that on the news, and the whole time thinking, "Well, get off the damned phone and turn off the ignition." The sticking throttle was not a good thing, but there was no need for there to be any fatalities in that situation.

cameraman

01-29-10, 06:13 PM

Guess I have been driving an old 5-speed for too long.
All I keep thinking is step on the clutch or just pull it out of gear....

coolhand

01-29-10, 07:00 PM

Maybe this is a stupid question, but couldn't you just turn the ignition off or shift to neutral and brake?

It had an electric button starter and he did not know you can hold the button down for 3 seconds to shut the engine down.

Ankf00

01-29-10, 11:07 PM

then how does he shut the car off every other time?

nrc

01-30-10, 12:08 AM

then how does he shut the car off every other time?

Cars with push button ignition will turn off immediately when you push the button when you're parked. When you're moving they usually require a longer push to protect against someone shutting the engine down by accident.

Of course you can still just put the car in neutral.

grungex

01-30-10, 12:23 AM

It's hard to think clearly while panicking.

One would think a trained LEO would have more presence of mind.

NismoZ

01-30-10, 01:20 PM

nrc

01-30-10, 01:43 PM

The parts will arrive soon, verrrry soon, to the factories! Dealers want 'em YESterday to start repairs! Getting all their situation reports in the newspapers and on TV. Hide the knives back in Japan! (did the same supplier send out those Fit window switches to Honda, too?)

No big deal (http://apnews.myway.com/article/20100130/D9DI0STO0.html) says Japan. Meanwhile the recall has spread to China.

Funny moment on the news last night when a talking head said that if you have a Fit Honda will notify you.

Don Quixote

02-03-10, 01:18 PM

Govt telling folks to stop driving the Toyoters. Isn't that a conflict of interest when the Govt owns a competetor? :\

http://wcbstv.com/local/stop.driving.toyotas.2.1467177.html

Napoleon

02-03-10, 01:27 PM

Govt telling folks to stop driving the Toyoters. Isn't that a conflict of interest when the Govt owns a competitor?

Maybe, but I honestly can think of few other defects that can even equal a stuck accelerator as a situation where the government should tell you the cars should be parked until they are fixed (I guess no brakes is really only the other one).

By the way I have a Yaris which was not recalled but the first few weeks I had it I had a few instances where the gas pedal hung up on aftermarket floor mats. Scared the you know what out of me. In 31 years of car ownership that is the first time that has happened to me. As far as I could tell when I crawled under my dash was that a combination of the pad they had on the back of the pedal, the shape of the floor pan and the geometry of the pedal as you depressed it all made it possible for the mat to easily get hung up on the pedal if it had slid forward slightly.

Gnam

02-03-10, 01:29 PM

I'm waiting for the government to outlaw accelerator pedals. :gomer:

coolhand

02-03-10, 01:37 PM

I'm waiting for the government to outlaw accelerator pedals. :gomer:

Nah, I just think we should intern Japanese Pedals in the desert

Don Quixote

02-03-10, 01:38 PM

Maybe, but I honestly can think of few other defects that can even equal a stuck accelerator as a situation where the government should tell you the cars should be parked until they are fixed (I guess no brakes is really only the other one).

Not disagreeing with you necessarily, but I remember stuck throttles in the past due to linkage problems, engine mount problems, floor mats, etc and I don't ever recall the Sec of Transportation ringing an alarm to immediately stop driving the cars. In the meantime Toyota's sales and stock goes down, and Govt Motors is the beneficiary. Not a good situation, IMO.

Elmo T

02-03-10, 02:06 PM

Obvious Misstatement by Transportation Secretary (http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-20100203-712593.html?mod=WSJ_latestheadlines) :rolleyes:

Looks pretty obvious to me. Is there anyone willing to be accountable for their statements?

Isn't that his job? If there is thought that it isn't safe, go get it fixed ASAP?

dando

02-03-10, 02:19 PM

Obvious Misstatement by Transportation Secretary (http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-20100203-712593.html?mod=WSJ_latestheadlines) :rolleyes:

One word: dumbass. :saywhat:

-Kevin

Elmo T

02-03-10, 02:25 PM

One word: dumbass. :saywhat:

-Kevin

If the problem was so egregious, then tell everyone so - park it, get it fixed. I am OK with that.

Otherwise, let the press office handle the releases. :rolleyes:

Don Quixote

02-03-10, 02:50 PM

One word: dumbass. :saywhat:

-KevinI thought that was two words. :D

dando

02-03-10, 03:11 PM

I thought that was two words. :D

:p

Waterboy. ;)

-Kevin

oddlycalm

02-03-10, 04:12 PM

Elmo T

02-03-10, 04:35 PM

...I don't see any loud retractions of those stories...
oc

TV News has the attention span of, well...

http://i47.tinypic.com/5plvme.jpg

+ squirrel

Perhaps only Dando will get that. ;)

dando

02-03-10, 04:56 PM

Perhaps only Dando will get that. ;)

Squirrel!

:)

-Kevin <=== no, not that one. ;)

nrc

02-03-10, 08:59 PM

Meanwhile, after all the media slagging on CTS over the US made linkages being the cause last week I don't see any loud retractions of those stories now that it's abundantly clear that European and Asia sourced linkages have the same issues.

Other nations are simply incapable of recreating the perfection that is a Toyota accelerator.

Napoleon

02-04-10, 08:15 AM

After listening to the latest round of Toyota problems with the Prius this morning this is something Toyota is not going to bounce back from any time soon.

Napoleon

02-04-10, 08:20 AM

Meanwhile, after all the media slagging on CTS over the US made linkages being the cause last week I don't see any loud retractions of those stories now that it's abundantly clear that European and Asia sourced linkages have the same issues.

oc

So I have NPR on now and they have a story on about CTS, which apparently is based out of or has a big plant in Elkart, IN, which already had something like 1000% unemployment. Talk about a town not able to get a break.

Ankf00

02-04-10, 09:36 AM

Other nations are simply incapable of recreating the perfection that is a Toyota accelerator.

every nation other than japan that is if Denso keeps maintaining

JohnHKart

02-05-10, 12:45 AM

ChampcarShark

02-05-10, 02:11 PM

Having the accelerator stuck is good for nascar racing, guess they incorporated that into everyday cars.

nrc

02-06-10, 02:51 PM

I've felt for a while now that the Japanese makers, Toyota in particular, had developed a bit of a Teflon coating. Not that they didn't earn their reputation for quality, but that gap has closed in a lot of ways. Meanwhile the Japanese makers seemed to still get a free pass on recalls and problems that would have gotten a lot more attention had they been from American makers.

The "runaway car of death" story was sensational enough to finally chip of some of the Teflon and people are seeing that Toyota has been rather casual about addressing problems.

oddlycalm

02-06-10, 07:01 PM

Japanese makers seemed to still get a free pass on recalls and problems that would have gotten a lot more attention had they been from American makers.
Very true and it left them unprepared for this. That "free pass" was no accident. Japanese corporations have always managed to deftly handle the media and government bureaucracy from behind the scenes in the past using subtle and not so subtle pressure and incentives. This time the scope of the problem was too big. After a week of silence, while they worked furiously behind the scenes to point the finger at a single US supplier, seeing Akio Toyoda having to go out and read a public apology is about as close to "fall on sword time" as happens in the modern Japanese business world. The loss of face for him, the family, the company and Japan, Inc. was epic and the reverberations will last a long time.

oc

dando

02-06-10, 07:18 PM

The loss of face for him, the family, the company and Japan, Inc. was epic and the reverberations will last a long time.

oc

IOW, karma's a biotch. :)

-Kevin

Napoleon

02-07-10, 09:18 AM

The "runaway car of death" story was sensational enough to finally chip of some of the Teflon and people are seeing that Toyota has been rather casual about addressing problems.

Toyota Has Pattern of Slow Response on Safety Issues (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/07/business/global/07toyota.html?hp)

JLMannin

02-07-10, 12:53 PM

Dealership buddy just told me yesterday he heard there is also ECU downloads coming to all these cars as well, but Toyota isn't making it public. It's really too bad the Ford Fiesta, New Focus, Volt, Cruze, and new Aveos are not here to capitalize on this...(and also VW only has a few TDI Golf's available per month) . Darn!

Sounds like one of the instrument vendors I work with. First, I get the "Wow, your the first customer to report this problem", followed a few days later by "The parent company has a firmware fix for your problem." Really, you have a firmware update to fix a problem that does not exist? Silence from the service guy.

I suspected that Toyota would try to slip in a software/firmware upgrade to the ECU as a TSB to avoid the embarrassment and market destruction of a safety recall for fly-by-wire throttles.

cameraman

02-07-10, 03:02 PM

Napoleon

02-07-10, 04:35 PM

I suspected that Toyota would try to slip in a software/firmware upgrade to the ECU as a TSB to avoid the embarrassment and market destruction of a safety recall for fly-by-wire throttles.

Maybe, but it could be they are going to insert something other car makers have been doing for a while. I guess many/most other car makers have their software programed so that if someone is hitting the brakes and throttle at the same time the brake wins out. But Toyota never did that.

BZSetshot

02-12-10, 05:00 PM

Seems like Toyota was trying hard to sweep this under the rug:

Regulators Hired by Toyota Helped Halt Investigations (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601109&sid=aR4THte3hl18&pos=10)

Former regulators hired by Toyota Motor Corp. helped end at least four U.S. investigations of unintended acceleration by company vehicles in the last decade, warding off possible recalls, court and government records show.

Christopher Tinto, vice president of regulatory affairs in Toyota’s Washington office, and Christopher Santucci, who works for Tinto, helped persuade the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration to end probes including those of 2002-2003 Toyota Camrys and Solaras, court documents show. Both men joined Toyota directly from NHTSA, Tinto in 1994 and Santucci in 2003.

oddlycalm

02-12-10, 08:34 PM

Seems like Toyota was trying hard to sweep this under the rug
No doubt about it. They analyzed where the pressure points are a long time ago and they had people in place that have personal relationships with the regulators at those pressure points. Unfortunately (for them) the situation got out of their control and their friendlies at NHTSA are going to get a serious grilling. This will be a big setback if their friendlies get sacked or transferred.

There will be congressional hearings but Toyota will have people in place that will have cultivated relationships with key legislators and their staff. By having several plants in the US Toyota has some serious leverage in the game at the congressional level.

oc

Indy

02-12-10, 09:23 PM

For our friends in the legislature and bureaucracy who work for or take money from foreign companies and governments:

http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/8332/noosep.jpg

trish

02-16-10, 01:05 AM

Local news story. (http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/story?section=news/investigators&id=7279224)

In April 2002, Kathleen Kelly was sitting on a bench outside Harrah's casino when an out of control Toyota Avalon shot across the road, tossing one person into the air before plowing into Ms. Kelly, killing her instantly.
......

Then Eyewitness News uncovered the Medical Examiner's report on the death of Kathleen Kelly.

Inside the report, the Medical Examiner states that the driver "Told police the car suddenly accelerated" and even more troubling, he says she told police "She had just gotten the car back from the dealership" where it had been checked for "Unexpected Acceleration" but was told the "Vehicle was fine."

oddlycalm

02-16-10, 06:05 PM

For our friends in the legislature and bureaucracy who work for or take money from foreign companies and governments:
The Japanese are way too sophisticated to simply pay people off.

oc

pchall

02-16-10, 08:39 PM

As for the Audi 5000 which started having acceleration problems shortly after being introduced in 1978, the cause was never proven. 60 Minutes faked a "recreation" of the problem and it helped destroy the model and almost the brand in the US, but ultimately the most likely cause was driver error/peddle confusion.

Driver error/peddle confusion seemed likely at the time as well just the flat out refusal of parents and grandparents who just ran over the kid to believe they made a mistake. The level of cognitive dissonance involved in some of the interviews that aired back then was incredible.

The Canadian Transportation Accident Investigation and Safety Board (I think that was who did the research into unintended acceleration up North) eventually cleared the Audi 5000 but no similar report was ever issued by our NHTSA.

nrc

02-21-10, 09:18 PM

It's not going away...

Toyota saw '07 U.S. floormat recall as money-saving win

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Toyota Motor Corp (7203.T) believed it had saved over $100 million by convincing U.S. regulators to end a 2007 investigation of sudden acceleration complaints with a relatively cheap floormat recall, according to an internal company document.

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE61K2LV20100221

oddlycalm

02-22-10, 05:02 PM

It's not going away...
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE61K2LV20100221

No, it's not. For the press it's the gift that keeps on giving. This will only add fuel to the fire.

The document cites "favorable recall outcomes" as one of the key achievements of Toyota's lobbying effort in Washington as well as "safety rulemaking favorable to Toyota."

Specifically, the document says that Toyota's Washington safety group, a team that included several former U.S. officials, helped negotiate changes or delays to four proposed vehicle safety rules covering standards for roof crush, electric shock, side impact and door locks.

oc

dando

02-22-10, 05:13 PM

No, it's not. For the press it's the gift that keeps on giving. This will only add fuel to the fire.

oc

Dumbasses. One thing we are constantly instructed on is that you should put nothing into corporate communications that you wouldn't want made public. This fiasco and the Global Warming e-mails prove that point x 11. :shakehead

-Kevin

Indy

02-22-10, 05:39 PM

The document cites "favorable recall outcomes" as one of the key achievements of Toyota's lobbying effort in Washington as well as "safety rulemaking favorable to Toyota."

Specifically, the document says that Toyota's Washington safety group, a team that included several former U.S. officials, helped negotiate changes or delays to four proposed vehicle safety rules covering standards for roof crush, electric shock, side impact and door locks.

I have gone from being shocked (Toyota was THE benchmark for manufacturing and design until recently), to being somewhat sympathetic to Toyota (thinking maybe it was bad luck), to being angry. Like Ford with the Pinto, it was just greed overwhelming good sense, plain and simple.

If the Dems had any brains they would be all over this for propaganda value in their attempt to overturn the Supreme Court's corporate donations ruling.

Gnam

02-22-10, 06:47 PM

If the Dems had any brains they would be all over this for propaganda value in their attempt to overturn the Supreme Court's corporate donations ruling.
They would, but they're all busy taking their 'green, world saving, global warming stopping, smug mobile' Priuses back to the dealer for the recall. ;) :p

Don Quixote

02-22-10, 07:35 PM

I'm sure none of the other automakers have any memos like this floating around.

dando

02-22-10, 07:45 PM

I'm sure none of the other automakers have any memos like this floating around.

I think they may have learned some lessons on this in the 70s and 80s. Now go put on your tinfoil hat and go watch Tucker. :gomer:

-Kevin

Methanolandbrats

02-22-10, 08:30 PM

I have gone from being shocked (Toyota was THE benchmark for manufacturing and design until recently)...

They've always been ****boxes. Even in the 80s when they could build a half-way decent motor, the 3TC comes to mind, the rest of the car would literally dissolve before your eyes. Every time I got done working on mine I had to sweep out the shop. I called it Yoda droppings, a mixture of rust scales and undercoating. They all had mushy brakes, numb steering, cheap alternators and starters, pinion seals in drive lines failed, axle seals failed, head gaskets failed, they burned oil, etc... I have no idea how they gained their mythological status. Kinda nice to see them taking it in the shorts.

oddlycalm

02-22-10, 08:51 PM

I think they may have learned some lessons on this in the 70s and 80s.
That was the first thing I thought about when this first started unwinding, haven't we seen this all before...? :laugh:

Toyota had the game wired for all but the most extreme situation. Now that an extreme situation confronts them the fact they had the game wired will work against them. Right about now all those ex-government officials and the politicians and agency heads they influenced are no longer taking calls from Toyota. The rats will be diving over the side to save their own skins.

This is the corporate version of doing a Tiger Woods.

oc

dando

02-22-10, 08:57 PM

I have no idea how they gained their mythological status. Kinda nice to see them taking it in the shorts.

Because the US cars were worse (K-car anyone?). And once the US mfgs moved their focus to higher-margin SUVs, they lost the small and full-sized lines (basically producing crappy fleet cars), and once that happened, Toyo and Homoco attacked the SUV and then the p/u truck lines. GM was also in the process of becoming the GE of car mfgs....trying to do everything (Hughes, etc.), but a master of none. The Jap cars were marginally better in some cases, but marketing and the media hammered it down our throats were MUCH better than US cars. I also believe that the Japs managed to learn from their mistakes while the US mfgs just continued to repeat them.

-Kevin

Indy

02-23-10, 12:36 AM

NismoZ

02-23-10, 12:04 PM

Seriously, is this just about the demonization of Toyota or is the US Govt. involved and bringing on deflection and damage control? You think NHTSA or some other bureaucracy (like CONGRESS) wasn't somehow involved in $$ sensitive coverups or "look the other ways?" The onset of these problems goes WAY back and I can't believe there aren't a bunch of I told you sos out there. I may actually watch the hearings!:) Is consumer safety really the top priority...now? "Was the US a watchdog or a lapdog?" Let the spin commense!

Steve99

02-23-10, 12:56 PM

Has anybody ordered the "RIP Toyota" cake yet?

TrueBrit

02-23-10, 02:20 PM

If the Dems had any brains they would be all over this for propaganda value in their attempt to overturn the Supreme Court's corporate donations ruling.

That would require them unwinding their circular firing squads and the implants of spines and testes...

dando

02-23-10, 02:50 PM

^^^ Well said. I had a couple of "NUMMI's" (Chevy's produced at New United Motors, GM and Toyota's joint venture in Fremont, CA) which were essentially identical to Corolla's. The first one was like a freaking breeder reactor, close to 40 mpg in the late 80's. Excellent vehicle. The second one I thought I would probably have forever until it was totaled in a crash. Neither required anything but oil changes and never caused me any problems. After the horrible 1970's and 1980's GM cars I had before them, they seemed to be of impossibly high quality for the price.

Recently, I have become a fan of GM cars again. It seems that they really made great strides in quality right before they went bankrupt! Choose any of the vehicles they sell today that came on line in the last 5 years and you will be shocked at how good they are.

Also important to note (oc and Longman have mentioned around here previously) US mfgs had a habit of releasing new models or newer versions of existing models that were quite good...only to end up making them cheaper and cheaper by forcing their suppliers to lower the cost. We had a '98 or so Grand Cherokee that was a first edition redesign of the previous model. Very nice car and we had zero problems. We upgraded to a GC Limited 3-4 years later (really nice looking truck), and the truck was a total POS that went into the shop @ least a dozen times for various bugs. When we turned it in, it would have required $3K+ of fixes to keep it. :saywhat: :shakehead

-Kevin

NismoZ

02-23-10, 03:06 PM

By "cheaper and cheaper" I suppose you meant in quality and gee I wonder WHY the suppliers had to provide "cheaper and cheaper" parts?:shakehead Big mystery.

oddlycalm

02-23-10, 05:13 PM

Seriously, is this just about the demonization of Toyota or is the US Govt. involved and bringing on deflection and damage control?
For the media it's the next big feeding frenzy. For the former government officials that successfully lobbied for Toyota it's time for a long overseas vacation at an undisclosed location. For the agency heads and congress they have to act tough and, pretend they are on the job and make certain someone other than them goes down. None of those groups care a whit one way or another about Toyoda, their customers or the particulars of the situation.

oc

NismoZ

02-23-10, 07:16 PM

See, that's what I like. :) About damn time the media gets into a frenzy instead of ignoring or denying what has been going on! And I don't mean just in the auto industry. This one works because it's evil capitalism, I guess.

TRDfan

02-23-10, 10:39 PM

Not much to add here....interesting atmosphere at work.

This is just encouraging me more than ever that it's time for a career change.

JLMannin

02-24-10, 07:26 AM

Looks like the corporate culture of Toyota has westernized - putting short-term, transient profits over long term, sustained results.

KLang

03-02-10, 02:07 PM

Steve99

03-02-10, 03:17 PM

Dueling headlines.

GM sales jump 11.5 percent amid Toyota recalls (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35662491/ns/business-autos/)

GM recall - 1.3 million Chevrolets and Pontiacs (http://money.cnn.com/2010/03/02/autos/GM_recall/index.htm?hpt=T2)

:gomer:

Don't forget about this one:
Toyota to replace oil hose on 933,800 vehicles (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35650004/ns/business-autos/)

Methanolandbrats

03-02-10, 04:03 PM

Don't forget about this one:
Toyota to replace oil hose on 933,800 vehicles (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35650004/ns/business-autos/)

Can't really tolerate a leak given how much oil Toyotas burn :D That combination would drain the massive 3 quart sump in no time.

nrc

03-09-10, 10:15 AM

Another runaway Toyota of Doom goes berzerk. Tragedy is narrowly averted when an automotive controls mentat from the CHP is called in to instruct the driver on how to stop.

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-toyota-chp9-2010mar09,0,3699926.story?track=rss

coolhand

03-09-10, 08:25 PM

20 minutes at 90 MPH is 30 miles :rofl:

He drove 30 miles until a CHP officer got to him and told him to turn off the engine and try the emergency breake?

The real dangerous thing is that people don't really know how their car works.

Press and hold the ignition for 3 seconds....