Wake Island

[Kiwifan]

Just finished watching the doco about Wake Island on the History Channel. Very, very moving. :thumbup: :thumbup:

Those guys were amazing. :cool:

Russell.

[nrc]

I'm always at a bit of a loss for words when it comes to Wake Island. Those men, military and civilian alike, showed epic determination and bravery. There were a lot of battles in the Pacific where men fought bravely without much hope or purpose but that one really stands out. Wake was such a spec of nothing in the Pacific that the U.S. practically ignored it for the rest of the war.

The Marine flyers were amazing. They kept patching up their Wildcats so they could take off into impossible odds. At one point two Wildcats took on 40 or so Kates and Zeros before finally being put out of action for good. When their aircraft were done the remaining pilots fought on the ground until they were ordered to surrender.

[Kiwifan]

Thanks Boss. I'm no war monger although I am enjoying all of this new footage that has surfaced over the last few years.

My Dad never spoke of the War, to him it was just a job so sadly there are 5 years of his life that I will never know about but I respected his beliefs in not being more open. To him it was just a job.

The Marines and pilots on Wake showed real courage against overwhelming odds only to bet let down by a Task Force that turned back (with supplies) a mere 20km away. To have to surrender then be forced to kneel naked in front of machines guns on a beach far from home.

It made me feel very humble and when you hear someone say these days "he's a hero" I smile and think "you have no idea."

Politics aside that showed a former President of yours flying around Wake, one Mr G Bush.

Rusty.

[Napoleon]

My Dad never spoke of the War . . .

I had 3 uncles in the war who were all in the Allied offensive on the European Western front (one even being in the squad that arrested Goering and also had to count bodies at a concentration camp) and we were never to ask them anything about it because they would not talk about it (one of the other 2 uncles witnessed 2 French kids killed by a mine a second after he took a picture of them and the 3rd suffered from shrapnel being permanently in his body from being strafed in a foxhole).

A few years ago, based on dozens or maybe 100 or so stories I have read or from talking to people, I came to the conclusion that people who brag about their war experiences have a pretty high chance of being liars. Basically nearly 100% of the time when I have seen people comment on how their relatives handle it, or from talking directly with vets, just like your experience with your dad they will not talk about it, or will be very very reluctant. On the other hand I have seen a bunch of stories about how the outspoken Vietnam Vet who headed a local Vets organization and would show up at parades with his medals never served or how in a story I read years ago that the FBI says that over half the people who claim to have been Navy Seals were not, etc. etc. etc.

[Indy]

It took us a long time to get my father in law to talk about his experiences. He is in his late 80's now.

I have an uncle who was in the Battle of the Bulge. To this day he absolutely refuses to speak of it.

I have noticed that the ones who really seem to have been there are not the flag waving, patriotic type. They know what it means to see so many lives thrown away for some sociopath's vision of glory. I agree that the ones who seek medals and applause never lived through the real thing.

God bless those who endured such Hell for us.

[cameraman]

Pretty much the same story here. My uncle was on Iwo Jima as a SeaBee driving a armored bulldozer. He does not easily talk about exactly what he had to bulldoze during the battle.

[Indy]

I saw an interesting show last night. It was a Frontline on the digital age. One segment of the investigation was a feature on the "pilots" who steer the armed drones in Afghanistan and Iraq as they sit at a base in Nevada. They are playing video games where the monster you shoot is an actual person somewhere. It was chilling to watch what was, in essence, a snuff film of them doing their jobs. These people are suffering from PTSD, and, I would imagine, will face a lifetime of guilt.

After all, according to our government, suicide bomber = coward, but these people are heros. How will they be able to live with that?

[stroker]

I saw an interesting show last night. It was a Frontline on the digital age. One segment of the investigation was a feature on the "pilots" who steer the armed drones in Afghanistan and Iraq as they sit at a base in Nevada. They are playing video games where the monster you shoot is an actual person somewhere. It was chilling to watch what was, in essence, a snuff film of them doing their jobs. These people are suffering from PTSD, and, I would imagine, will face a lifetime of guilt.

After all, according to our government, suicide bomber = coward, but these people are heros. How will they be able to live with that?

At the risk of having this spin off into another effing interminable debate of semantics which miss the entire gist of the situation, I'll take a stab at clarifying this. Suicide bomber = coward because they almost invariably target civilians as in the definition of terrorist aka "mass murderer". Drone drivers are UNIFORMED MEMBERS OF THE MILITARY OF AN INTERNATIONALLY RECOGNIZED NATION STATE killing terrorists before they are able to kill civilians, which loosely defines them as "heroes". al Queda declared war on the United States and murdered thousands and has at the very minimum attempted to murder hundreds more. You've got two choices which are: armed reaction by the US military OR armed reaction by the US populace. If you'd rather have somebody like Ross Perot funding and carrying out a war against al Queda on his own I'd be very interested in hearing your explanation of how that's a superior situation.

[dando]

I have an uncle who was in the Battle of the Bulge. To this day he absolutely refuses to speak of it.


Same with my grandfather. It was unspoken not to ask about it. The greatest generation in so many ways. :thumbup:

-Kevin

[oddlycalm]

My dad was a naval aviator flying in the Pacific theater. As a kid, at a time when the war was still a recent memory, I had a lot of questions. He never had any direct answers. He had a good camera, a Kodak Medalist 6x9cm format camera with a 100mm Ektar lens, and I now have the camera and stack of pictures. I have no idea where most were taken but the aerial shots of post-war Japan taken during patrol flights are pretty obvious from the massive devastation. Very grim, entire cities flattened to rubble.

Recently, when we were moving him out of his house, we came across all the 8mm movie film my mother shot and had it converted into DVD's. First time I viewed them I saw some familiar family scenes but most of the footage was war era footage I'd never seen, nor had my sister. Some of it her first husband (lost in the war) shot at a jungle airfield in the New Hebrides, so the camera had originally been his I guess. Another segment was a squadron of SBD Dauntless dive bombers training on carrier landings. Another was of a convalescent facility that looked to be in the rural Irish Hills near MIS. No idea who she was there to see, but there were many hundreds of facilities like it all around the country to deal with the massive numbers of wounded and disabled.

The final segment was shot during a drive from Chicago (Great Lakes Naval Air Station) to San Francisco that she made alone in 1944. I'd heard her mention making the trip when discussing a particular town, but I never knew she filmed it. I don't know if her husband was on leave, shipping in, shipping out, but what is clear is that in those days before interstates that was a long drive for a 22yr old woman alone on some rather rudimentary roads. I do know that shortly after that her husband was killed in action and that she subsequently lost the baby she was carrying.

The fact that I didn't see the pictures, movies or hear anything more than indirect references and generalities until my mother was long since gone and my father is 90, and no longer living on his own, pretty much tells the whole story. I heard even less about their teenage years during the Depression.

oc

[Kiwifan]

That is an amazing story oc. I only have one (war) pic of Dad, stolling down the main street of Dunedin with two of his mates dressed in their army uniforms just before they were to head off overseas. They have such big smiles and look as if they had the world by the tail.

Treasure those photos and vids mate, that is some history you have there.

Regards, Rusty.

[Indy]

I know what you are saying, stroker, but you can go a long way back if we are going to try to figure out who shot first.

What struck me was the detachment. Killing someone by remote control from seven thousand miles away. I just can't imagine any way to justify that.

[nrc]

I know what you are saying, stroker, but you can go a long way back if we are going to try to figure out who shot first.

What struck me was the detachment. Killing someone by remote control from seven thousand miles away. I just can't imagine any way to justify that.

I understand your point about detachment and the potential affects that might have. But what does that have to do with "justifying" it?

The criteria for what constitutes a legitimate target doesn't change. If anything a UAV gives the luxury of loitering to make sure that you're shooting what you intend to shoot.

[oddlycalm]

What struck me was the detachment. Killing someone by remote control from seven thousand miles away. I just can't imagine any way to justify that. I understand what you are saying but since the remote "pilots" are suffering from PTSD it seems clear they aren't detached at all in some very significant ways. Certainly not much more so than a bomber pilot that drops bombs from 52,000ft., a naval missile crew that fires a cruise missile from 250mi away from the target or the crew of a Spector gunship using infrared vision and joysticks.

The opposition is killing by remote control as well. Instead of technology they use gullible kids, religious nutjobs, the uneducated, and the poor and desperate.

Once a decision is made to wage war the justification process is effectively over. Where I draw the line is with devices like land mines that are indiscriminate and can kill long after a conflict is over.

oc

[stroker]

I know what you are saying, stroker, but you can go a long way back if we are going to try to figure out who shot first.

What struck me was the detachment. Killing someone by remote control from seven thousand miles away. I just can't imagine any way to justify that.

What you're talking about is the reason that there are very few people who can handle the emotional and psychological stress of being a sniper. The only difference here is that instead of using a rifle these guys are using a missile. Pilots are trained to "put the bomb on the target" and never really see the consequences. Snipers see the "pink mist". It's a big difference, I'll grant you.

[Napoleon]

I have no idea where most were taken but the aerial shots of post-war Japan taken during patrol flights are pretty obvious from the massive devastation. Very grim, entire cities flattened to rubble.

My father was drafted on or right around VJ day (so was technically a WWII vet) and ended up in the Army Air Force (the seperate air force had not been formed yet) and sent to Japan as one of the early occupiers and was stationed in Tokyo. He had all kinds of 8mm film he shot and still pictures of all the damage from the fire bombing and such (and also stuff like MacArthur coming out of his plane). It was just an amazing level of destruction.

Even so he seemed to have liked Tokyo and the Japanesse that he came to know (some of them worked for the military as runners and what not, and of course he got leave and could go into town).

[G.]

Pretty much the same story here. My uncle was on Iwo Jima as a SeaBee driving a armored bulldozer. He does not easily talk about exactly what he had to bulldoze during the battle.

Same for my grandpa on Saipan.

I heard him speak of it once, voice rising as he said that they were trying to convince the civilians not to jump. Family members intervened and whisked me away.

[Sean Malone]

Pretty much the same story here. My uncle was on Iwo Jima as a SeaBee driving a armored bulldozer. He does not easily talk about exactly what he had to bulldoze during the battle.

My grandfather was a SeaBee in the Pacific theater also. He cleared desolate islands for airstrips. He died in '52 and mom said he never spoke of his involvement in WW2. She had to do her own investigation just to find out what ship he served on.

[Elmo T]

I've been scanning photos from my wife's recently deceased Grandmother's photo album collection. There are a bunch of BGP photos - to mean "before Grandpop".

BGP, Grandmom was engaged to Navy pilot - MIA, presumed KIA in the South Pacific (Borneo, as I recall). She has a great collection of photos from him and his squadron. I want to preserve them, but GP doesn't want them scanned at this time. :(

I know very little about this lost pilot, and the photos are very haunting. Everyone looks so happy. I look forward to being able to preserve this small legacy so that he is not forgotten.

[Napoleon]

Speaking of WWII photos, and on a somewhat happier note, something like 3 or 4 years ago my brother's wife's father died. Since he has seen her since high school our families have known one another for around 30 years now.

Anyways at the funeral home as you typically see they had a few poster boards filled with pictures of him from his life and one of them is of a version of that famous picture from Times Square on VJ day of a sailor kissing a nurse, so I ask my sister-in-law about it and apparenty there are several versions of the picture, and to varying degrees they are cropped around the sailor and nurse, but one of the wide shots has him walking by in his uniform, which was the picture they had at the funeral home. I wish I knew that so I could have asked him about it.

[emjaya]

I've been scanning photos from my wife's recently deceased Grandmother's photo album collection. There are a bunch of BGP photos - to mean "before Grandpop".

BGP, Grandmom was engaged to Navy pilot - MIA, presumed KIA in the South Pacific (Borneo, as I recall). She has a great collection of photos from him and his squadron. I want to preserve them, but GP doesn't want them scanned at this time. :(

I know very little about this lost pilot, and the photos are very haunting. Everyone looks so happy. I look forward to being able to preserve this small legacy so that he is not forgotten.

Scan them anyway.

Signed,

someone who learned the hard way.