Delta Wang, why not?

[G.]

Not sure if this post will go anywhere, or if I'll like where it goes. :laugh:

The earl is dead, it's obvious. No evolution is really going to help.

If the Gomers-in-Trust brought back CART, would it really work? Would anyone but the 72 of us even pay attention to it? It's too late. I don't think anybody could bring back what FTony stole from us.

So if a new series rose from the ashes based on the Flying Penis, don't you think that it would have a better chance to survive (and thrive) than anything else? Many of us have been asking for the AOW to be burned to the ground and started over, well the Racin' Johnson concept is pretty much a do-over. :D

I'm not asking about the merits of the car so much, I just don't think that there's any alternative other than a really bold/stupid idea, that may fail or grow into something good. Just no more spec crap (and if you believe Floyd...)

I guess my point is, EARL is dead, and I don't think that bringing back CART will work. I really don't. So open up the rulebooks for the Love Pump of Speed and see what happens. When you've already lost it all, what else is there to lose?



Feel free to throw insults, I can take it. :p

[trish]

So if a new series rose from the ashes based on the Flying Penis, don't you think that it would have a better chance to survive (and thrive) than anything else? No


When you've already lost it all, what else is there to lose? Money and time.

[SteveH]

Not sure if this post will go anywhere, or if I'll like where it goes. :laugh:

The earl is dead, it's obvious. No evolution is really going to help.

If the Gomers-in-Trust brought back CART, would it really work? Would anyone but the 72 of us even pay attention to it? It's too late. I don't think anybody could bring back what FTony stole from us.

So if a new series rose from the ashes based on the Flying Penis, don't you think that it would have a better chance to survive (and thrive) than anything else? Many of us have been asking for the AOW to be burned to the ground and started over, well the Racin' Johnson concept is pretty much a do-over. :D

I'm not asking about the merits of the car so much, I just don't think that there's any alternative other than a really bold/stupid idea, that may fail or grow into something good. Just no more spec crap (and if you believe Floyd...)

I guess my point is, EARL is dead, and I don't think that bringing back CART will work. I really don't. So open up the rulebooks for the Love Pump of Speed and see what happens. When you've already lost it all, what else is there to lose?



Feel free to throw insults, I can take it. :p

I absolutely agree. 100%

Aesthetics aside.... After reading this Marshall Pruett article (http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/article/indycar-the-big-silver-vitamin/) I've had a bit of a revelation. Sort of like when I saw the first Handford Device race. It was great, it was exciting. But by the end of the race, I was conflicted. It was contrived excitement. Only in reverse now. I was repelled by the Deltawing. But aesthetics aside, there is no choice but for the League to pursue it.

After reading Preutt's article (http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/article/indycar-the-big-silver-vitamin/), some of it began to resonate with me. Mainly that the formula has to change (and dramatically) as that is the very fiber of this sport. IMS was created as an auto test track. The 500 mile race served that purpose very well. It has been the showcase to many great advances if not in commercial automotive design, certainly in competitive design. And also home to many controversial changes as well. The formula currently in use has changed little in over 30 years, refined a hell of a lot, but little discernible change (aesthetics aside). Look at the 30 years preceding this last 30 year era, from 1950 to 1980. The change was phenomenal, and not just one epochal change but at least two. From roadsters to rear engine and then on to the discovery of aero. Everything we have seen in the past 30 years has been evolutionary, if it changed at at all. What has happened time and again at IMS has been revolutionary. And during those times the sport soared. Is Deltawing returning the sport to its true roots? And are we now the old guard? Guarding 'our formula' like the USAC stalwarts did with the roadster? The sport is dead, even with our support. To grow it can't depend on us alone. It has to excite an entirely indifferent group to become interested again or probably more like for the first time ever in Indy Car racing. An evolutionary chassis will not do that, never. I'm not defending the looks of the current Deltawing but I do see the need for it. Or something similar. Hopefully this will be the catalyst that will cause the series to sit back and rethink the future. Freshen the current chassis for the next two years and then forge ahead. If it fails, it fails. No one will notice and that will be the end of it. The sport is nearly dead anyway. This is no time for the timid.

[Sean Malone]

Why not hover craft?

Why not boats with wheels?

Why not solar powered cars with bicycle wheels?

Why not jet powered luge sleds?

Why not a roman chariot pulled by a dozen crocodiles?

Why not the 'skud'?

[Winston Wolfe]

we are completely buggered.:thumdown:
The AOW series has absolutely nothing going for it, and the self appointed savior is bankrupt, morally and literally, and it makes no sense for anyone to resurrect it.... the Skud aint the answer, except for maybe a great sponsor platform for some of them little blue pills that correct ED.... dat's all.

[Chief]

It's simple...delete the IRL. As long as it exists the sport will suffer.

It won't matter what car is on track...

[Michaelhatesfans]

IMS was created as an auto test track. The 500 mile race served that purpose very well. It has been the showcase to many great advances if not in commercial automotive design, certainly in competitive design. And also home to many controversial changes as well. The formula currently in use has changed little in over 30 years, refined a hell of a lot, but little discernible change (aesthetics aside). Look at the 30 years preceding this last 30 year era, from 1950 to 1980. The change was phenomenal, and not just one epochal change but at least two. From roadsters to rear engine and then on to the discovery of aero. Everything we have seen in the past 30 years has been evolutionary, if it changed at at all..

But it's not testing or evolution if everyone is just running the same thing because they were told that they had to. The advances came from the desire to build a better car than the next guy. As for the last 15 years, of course there wasn't any evolution, because it was a spec series. I can guarantee that the cars would look a hell of lot different if the teams could alter and design the cars as they saw fit.

All of the changes to the cars since the track opened (until the IRL)happened for one reason - because it made the cars go faster. That's natural progression. Sometimes it's evolution, sometimes it's revoution - but it's a natural progression.

This is a gimmick and nothing more. I don't have an easy answer to what will fix it all, but I don't see Indy returning to anything near what it was as long as it's a spec series. The Hot Wheel/Speed Racer/Dildo thing being shoved down people's throats (yeah, I realize what I just typed) doesn't help win people over.

[Michaelhatesfans]

It's simple...delete the IRL. As long as it exists the sport will suffer.

It won't matter what car is on track...

And there's that, as well. I think a public flogging of Tony George during pre-race ceremonies might help, though. Make it part of the tradition every year.

[G.]

I can guarantee that the cars would look a hell of lot different if the teams could alter and design the cars as they saw fit.


That would be mandatory, some level of allowable change. And I think that's what Ganassi was talking about.

Also, I don't think that the DW is the answer, but I do believe that it is a better answer than "evolution" or a return to CART. Neither of those will work, except for a few of us, IMO.

Finally, I'm an idiot, and would probably watch those IZOD Racing Alligators (not crocs, Sean), so WTF do I know. :gomer:

[SteveH]

But it's not testing or evolution if everyone is just running the same thing because they were told that they had to.

Obviously, that has to change too. A spec series, regardless of the formula is a fail.

[Elmo T]

From the article:


If the 2012 car is just a mildly evolved version of what we’ve seen in CART, ChampCar or the IndyCar Series over the past decade, can we expect to win back the throngs of fans that left during the CART/ChampCar/IndyCar days with something that looks similar to what they’ve seen before?

The car is A problem, but it is not THE problem with the IRL. :shakehead


The series was gone after one season of the DP01 being pressed into service, and while I don’t completely blame the chassis for the series’ failure, I do think that by opting for something that looked safe and familiar, they sealed their fate. At a time when something groundbreaking was needed, ChampCar’s decision to build an evolutionary chassis led to their extinction.

Really? :rolleyes: The car sealed their fate?


The show car doesn't steer, which led to a lot of questions about the viability of the design. It was a small oversight...

Ya think?

[Indy]

G. and SteveH :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

And I want the first "Love Pump of Speed" T-shirt. :rofl:

[dando]

So if a new series rose from the ashes based on the Flying Penis

Drinking early today, eh? :gomer: :p ;)

-Kevin

[WickerBill]

This really isn't difficult.

1. Public mea culpa for destroying the sport. From TG, from Roger, from Cheever, from AJ, from Mario. All at once. We may not like them or their views, but people on the IRL side of our sport truly feel aggrieved by words and actions from our side. Obviously, likewise for us. Very few people involved are innocent. And no talking heads that were involved as talking heads on either side of the split are allowed to be talking heads for this series.
2. Elimination of the words Indy Racing League, the initials IRL, and all slogans related to these. Call it AOW. Call it Formula America. Call it Beans And Franks. Whatever.
3. Set strict safety standards for attachment of wheels, driver cocoon, spectators, walls.
4. Set basic aero and performance rules (exposure of wheels, overall width and length, no ground effects, four cylinder engines, whatever). Allow innovation.
5. Understand that no rulebook in a technology-driven sport can remain stagnant year upon year -- if you make a rulebook that stands the test of time, it is too restrictive.


No philosophy change for at least 8 years. The massive innovation will attract fans and good drivers. Good drivers will attract more fans. Technology from the innovation will make it into production cars, interesting manufacturers in the series. It will build.


Just unfortunate that 1,2,4,5 are all basically impossible until about 80 key players die.

[Sean Malone]

This really isn't difficult.

1. Public mea culpa for destroying the sport. From TG, from Roger, from Cheever, from AJ, from Mario. All at once. We may not like them or their views, but people on the IRL side of our sport truly feel aggrieved by words and actions from our side. Obviously, likewise for us. Very few people involved are innocent. And no talking heads that were involved as talking heads on either side of the split are allowed to be talking heads for this series.
2. Elimination of the words Indy Racing League, the initials IRL, and all slogans related to these. Call it AOW. Call it Formula America. Call it Beans And Franks. Whatever.
3. Set strict safety standards for attachment of wheels, driver cocoon, spectators, walls.
4. Set basic aero and performance rules (exposure of wheels, overall width and length, no ground effects, four cylinder engines, whatever). Allow innovation.
5. Understand that no rulebook in a technology-driven sport can remain stagnant year upon year -- if you make a rulebook that stands the test of time, it is too restrictive.


No philosophy change for at least 8 years. The massive innovation will attract fans and good drivers. Good drivers will attract more fans. Technology from the innovation will make it into production cars, interesting manufacturers in the series. It will build.


Just unfortunate that 1,2,4,5 are all basically impossible until about 80 key players die.

:thumbup:

[oddlycalm]

It's simple...delete the IRL. As long as it exists the sport will suffer.

It won't matter what car is on track...
Agreed Chief, but the EARL may be self-deleting at this point. The flying penis has pitted the large teams against the legacy EARL management at a moment when Rodeo Randy the newbie is being wheeled in. The EARL organization is about as stable as a rabid weasel on crystal meth and the teams loathe Brainfart yet Rodeo Randy says he's going to lean heavily on him because he doesn't know a turbocharger from a toaster oven. With Cotman gone there is no voice of sanity in that organization and a confrontation is long overdue. Rodeo Randy is going to have to choose between the salaried staff of stooges or the teams that allow the races to happen.

Seeing a series of large detonations at IMS doesn't guarantee a positive change for us, but it's a good first step. Another season of red ink along with some rather public fear and loathing should have the sisters in a selling mood. And, if her first taste of stockers is any indication Princess Sparkelponey will soon exit and with her whatever mainstream media attention remains.

oc

[Chief]

I'm open to this new car...I just see it as a waste of time and $$$ though. They'd be better off addressing the image problems caused by their meddling for control of the sport. Having the speedway continually ignore culpability in the ruination of AOW is an insult to any fan, past present or future.

Their lack of ability to handle that is what will destroy them. Irony is heavy for everyone BUT them apparently. The IRL logo is a swastika and confederate flag all in one. Let there be no peace in AOW racing until it's gone. New car be damned....too.

[Sean Malone]

And, if her first taste of stockers is any indication Princess Sparkelponey will soon exit and with her whatever mainstream media attention remains.

oc

Yep. How fitting that her departure could actually be the nail in the coffin for the Leeege.

[Methanolandbrats]

If you want to see the future of AOW, check out the history of harness racing.....it's due for a big comeback too.....any day now.........

[oddlycalm]

They'd be better off addressing the image problems caused by their meddling for control of the sport. Having the speedway continually ignore culpability in the ruination of AOW is an insult to any fan, past present or future.

Their lack of ability to handle that is what will destroy them.
You're right, the smart business move would be to take a page from Dominos and admit to their past sins, purge the front office pricks TG hired and start fresh. Not going to happen though. Their sense of entitlement and ownership won't allow that, even with TG gone.

oc

[nissan gtp]

This really isn't difficult.

1. Public mea culpa for destroying the sport. From TG, from Roger, from Cheever, from AJ, from Mario. All at once. We may not like them or their views, but people on the IRL side of our sport truly feel aggrieved by words and actions from our side. Obviously, likewise for us. Very few people involved are innocent. And no talking heads that were involved as talking heads on either side of the split are allowed to be talking heads for this series.
2. Elimination of the words Indy Racing League, the initials IRL, and all slogans related to these. Call it AOW. Call it Formula America. Call it Beans And Franks. Whatever.
3. Set strict safety standards for attachment of wheels, driver cocoon, spectators, walls.
4. Set basic aero and performance rules (exposure of wheels, overall width and length, no ground effects, four cylinder engines, whatever). Allow innovation.
5. Understand that no rulebook in a technology-driven sport can remain stagnant year upon year -- if you make a rulebook that stands the test of time, it is too restrictive.


No philosophy change for at least 8 years. The massive innovation will attract fans and good drivers. Good drivers will attract more fans. Technology from the innovation will make it into production cars, interesting manufacturers in the series. It will build.


Just unfortunate that 1,2,4,5 are all basically impossible until about 80 key players die.


1 and 2 would be nice, but it's irrelevant to all but the hard-core fans (all 150 of us). If any insiders still have their panties in a bundle (Uncle Gerry), then an apology isn't going to help
3 is in decent shape IMO.
4 Great approach, and an ideal solution, but very hard -- Can Am was the epitome of that approach, and it worked to a certain extent. It sure wasn't a spec series, but McLaren and Porsche fully dominated.
5 So should changes to the rules be done to limit technology (Hanford, lowered boost, single tire spec, etc) or to encourage it (KERS) ?? How can costs be controlled ?

And if those 80 are gone, who (with money) cares enough to have an open wheel team ?

[Michaelhatesfans]

The IRL logo is a swastika and confederate flag all in one.

:laugh:

[SurfaceUnits]

I think a public flogging of Tony George during pre-race ceremonies might help, though. Make it part of the tradition every year.
making Maw George go cold turkey is called for as well. it was her in her drunken stupor that enabled her son to destroy racing

[Hard Driver]

why not the delta wing?

1) It is a very bad design. Cars have wheels at the corners for stability. There are basic laws of physics for that. Having this lawn dart shape is contrived, and even the designer Bowden said, it was to keep it from looking like a sports car after shrouding the wheels. It is a match box copy of a fighter plane car, I guess they all should just get USAF painted on the wings.

2) the whole thing with the shrouded wheels is to copy nascar, so they they can do the rubbing is racing thing.

3) The problem with the rubbing is racing thing and this design is that the driver can't see the edges of the car, because it is all behind him and he has no point of reference, so it is just going to be a wreck fest.

4) I guess there is also just the plain, this is not a car, and tradition is that cars race at Indy. And I guess that F1 and Champcar and CART and even the IRL had some kind of open wheel car thing that was based upon performance. Even spec series like GP2 or Indylights have this design. And if the future of open wheel racing in the USA is so bad that the cars can't have open wheels or even resemble traditional open wheel designs, then that is just plain NOT open wheel racing. It is not even car racing. So it destroys all traditions, and all links to open wheel racing.

5) What is wrong with top tier open wheel racing in the USA is not that the cars look like they do, it is because they are too spec. Even nascar Car of tomorrow has people thinking there are differences between the engine builders and even between who builds the exact same cars. Having a spec delta wing is not better than a spec anything else. And if the delta wing will be built by others so it is not spec, then why can't they build a normal car with four wheels.

[Cam]

making Maw George go cold turkey is called for as well. it was her in her drunken romp with with a stable hand that enabled her son to destroy racing

FTFY. :)

[Andrew Longman]

Some of the arguments against the DW sound an awful lot like those who complained that an indycar should not have the engine in the back.

If this design prompt less, not more, spec racing because more people become involved in designing, building and assembling components then that is a good thing in the Indycar tradition. Same for the engine.

If it somehow gives Indycar an identity separate from NASCAR and F1 then that fixes some other problems.

I'm still not sure I can or will warm up to this racing. The IRL and all things Hulman would need to be far from it. It would need to race at places like RA and have credible competitors and teams. It would need top flight business partners and a sustainable and bright future. Otherwise I would have about as much interest in it as Red Bull air races.

[Corner5]

After a lot of reading, I'm on board.

This is a good explaination that I found at Indystar from "CareerLeader"


There is no economy of scale in providing the entire field with chassis because beyond the first order there isn't enough scale to save any manufacturing cost.

Barnhart thinks that they will save money because the chassis manufacturer won't have to invest bupkis in R&D. The only problem is that Penske turns around and spends over $500,000 on a R&D for new rear view mirrors and millions on suspension improvements. In the end the big 2-4 teams spend tens of millions of dollars and have cars that outclass everyone else.

If they go back to the multi-manufacturer system the chassis maker does the bulk of the R&D work and the costs are split among all of their customers. The money gets spent either way, but the current system makes for uncompetitive events while the multiple supplier system keeps everyone closer in the long run.

This is going to be the make or break decision for this series. We will see if Barnhardt has already picked Dallara and is just going through the motions or if there will be boycott and another split. We can only hope they breakaway from IMS.
We will see who has the real power at IMS, and its not the new CEO who knows nothing about OW. Everybody's job is on the line at IMS except for the guy whose building a 1.3 million dollar house in Indy it seems. Guess who?

[Sean Malone]

There isn't going to be any split from IMS from the current owners. Remember they're the ones (excluding Coyne) who stabbed CART in the back to kowtow back to Tony.

As for the cars...racing has been and will always be about money = speed. What the teams are complaining about is that Dallara and Honda aren't giving them any discounts, which they claim is strange being that the car/engine is a static. My how quick that becomes an issue when Tony's subsidies end eh?

I personally don't believe the Delta Wang was ever intended to turn a wheel.


But I hear that Gentleoser is on board with the DWang too. :gomer:

[Methanolandbrats]

Good racing comes from innovation. Innovation in racing only occurs with buckets of money and money comes from sponsors. But sponsors won't pay unless there is a return on investment and right now there is no return on investment because there are no fans. A spec racer clown car won't fix any of this, but it's the last card the IRL has left because nobody involved can afford to do anything else. We're pretty close to the end.

[Don Quixote]

The final nail in the coffin will be when Paul Gentilozzi himself drives the Rocketsports delta wing to victory in the 500 and gets his face on the Borg-Warner Trophy. :gomer:

[Sean Malone]

The final nail in the coffin will be when Paul Gentilozzi himself drives the Rocketsports delta wing to victory in the 500 and gets his face on the Borg-Warner Trophy. :gomer:

One can dream. :D

[NismoZ]

He's THAT good!

[pchall]

Some precursors to the Delta Wang:

http://www.khulsey.com/stockphotography/gm-firebird-I-turbine-car.jpeg

GM Firebird 1

http://image.motortrend.com/f/concours/tech-treasures-on-the-monterey-peninsula/10459322+w570+cr1+re0+ar1/1956-firebird-ii-titanium.jpg

GM Firebird 11

http://image.motortrend.com/f/8509888+w750/c12_0603_18z+1963_chrysler_turbine_car+1959_GM_fir ebird_III.jpg

GM Firebird 111

http://www.automotivehistoryonline.com/GM%20Firebird%20I,%20II%20and%20III%20Experimental s.jpg

[Sean Malone]

All of which are more track capable than the Delta Wang.

The Delta Wang was created for the same purpose as these GM show cars IMO.


Always loved the Earl futurama. His forward design was beyond what we have now, but meant for 20 years ago. :(

[SteveH]

Was at the Chicago Auto Show today. Firestone evidently has huge support for this as evidenced by having it as part of their display - on a specially constructed display platform. Two dudes pimping it, talking it up and answering questions, handing out business cards with the deltawing website address on it. One told me it will be tested on the track at Indy in August. A video in the display showed a simulation of it running at Indy. Its somewhat smaller than I expected.

[SteveH]

Dan Gurney for President (http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/article/pruett-all-american-visionary/pruett-all-american-visionary)

[Methanolandbrats]

Since the car is updated, they should probably update the driver suit
http://alltopmovies.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/batman.jpg

[Michaelhatesfans]

Dan Gurney for President (http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/article/pruett-all-american-visionary/pruett-all-american-visionary)

“I'm not a spec formula kind of person. I can only tell you what my own perspective is. And I think most of the fans, and I include myself as a fan of what used to be IndyCar racing, we were excited because we didn't have any idea whether somebody was going to come up with something new each year that would change the sport. And that was a big element of the unknown that I think fans still want to look forward to."

Dan called me before he said that. He said, "Hey, I really liked your post on offcamber.net - can I use that?"

I said, "Jesus, Dan, could you at least paraphrase it? I mean, don't just cut and paste my stuff like you usually do. I mean, I appreciate you calling first, but come on."

He was cool about it.

[73B]

I feel Pruett makes a critical point


I’m not the first to say it, but I do firmly believe that unless the 2012 car – and no matter which car(s) are pressed into production -- causes the average person to do a double-take and spend a few minutes trying to absorb the groundbreaking shape they see in front of them, the whole 2012 exercise will be a waste of time. But it can’t be ugly.

Asthstetics aside, the car has to be TRACK WORTHY.

The long evolution of open wheel racing cars has led to having four wheels on four corners. A lot of money and design expertise has gone into figuring this out.

A car like the Delta Wing, which is revolutionary for open wheel racing, looks like it was derived from the straight driving rockets on the Utah salt flats. I can't imagine 20 of them heading into "Turn 1" on any track.

[Indy]

Dan Gurney for President (http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/article/pruett-all-american-visionary/pruett-all-american-visionary)

Indeed. :thumbup:




What you have now is a racing tradition of socialism or if Karl Marx were going to do it, it would end up looking about like it does now. That turns me off big time and I think it turns a lot of fans off, all this stuff of having a bureaucrat to tell you when you can sneeze or not and so forth. It's like going to prison.

Think of all the right wingers on crackerforum who supported the "Vision." Have they ever realized that IRL = racing communism? :laugh:

[Andrew Longman]

Curious. Notice the resemblance to the Daytona 500 Trophy?

http://www.sportsmemorabilia.com/files/cache/dale-earnhardt-sr-framed-8x10-photo---nascar-daytona-500-trophy-3_89ddb70587cf21c36de5115a0be8dcbf.jpg

[pchall]

http://deltawingracing.com/

The site looks like a video game, but you might have some fun using the comment page.

[nissan gtp]

Curious. Notice the resemblance to the Daytona 500 Trophy?

http://www.sportsmemorabilia.com/files/cache/dale-earnhardt-sr-framed-8x10-photo---nascar-daytona-500-trophy-3_89ddb70587cf21c36de5115a0be8dcbf.jpg

Junior looks like a girl in that picture. :rofl:

[pchall]

Junior looks like a girl in that picture. :rofl:

Might explain why he drives like the Princess Permapout most weekends.

[Trevor Longman]

New video of the Delta Wang on youtube. Made by the same people as the USf1 series. Pretty funny! :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7Rg98bB2fE&feature=sub

[NismoZ]

IMS,"The Prick Yard!" :cool:

[NismoZ]

Huh, their site shows a lap at Long Beach and the front wheels never turn ONCE, not even at the hairpin! Now THAT'S some engineering!

[pchall]

Huh, their site shows a lap at Long Beach and the front wheels never turn ONCE, not even at the hairpin! Now THAT'S some engineering!

Does the fin provide yaw control in that video? :confused:

[datachicane]

It's hard to see in these shots, but bolted underneath between the dummy fiberglass Rubbin' Wheels® is one of these:

http://en.fukesi.com/img/serve_pic/4__PU_Swivel_Red_Caster.jpg

[Elmo T]

FWIW - PT's saying he will be on Wind Tunnel Aftershow (?) tonight talking about the Princess and the Wang.

[nissan gtp]

...the Princess and the Wang.

nice combo :eek:


:rofl: